Why are you still here?

[removed]

- discoverability (see below for details) - `M-x` (yes, I know about VSCode command palette, but it's not that powerful than, say `counsel-M-x`) - self-documenting - source code on fingertips - lisp inside (not the best lisp out there, but still) - consistency across plugins (not all of them, though, yes Ido, I'm looking at you) - a pretty large plugin ecosystem

Because of how extensible emacs is. Everything can be changed to your liking. Compare that to vscode which just has a big configuration file (json IIRC) that is just really limiting. Neovim is a great alternative but I like org mode and magit too much, there are "clones" for this but it's nowhere near as good as the emacs functionality. Another aspect is the fact that (imo) emacs is king when it comes to completion. For neovim you have e.g. telescope but every completion functionality would need to be a telescope plugin. Whereas if you use e.g. vertico in emacs, every library that uses completing-read uses your favourite completion system. Emacs is not perfect though, but it gets the job done for me. Most difficulties with emacs is faults in my own config.

I can get a 9term like experience whilst also having an opportunity to extend that experience to whatever way I want much more easily.

I fail to see ANY "newer, shinier apps that integrate better with my OS" or to be more precise I fail see ANY new application that integrate with anything else. From the *failed* Unix KISS logic where poor's man integrations was done via shell & pipes BUT CLI only, failed when Unix pull-in GUIs violating it's own principles nothing was proven to be capable of integration with nothing else. Even inside a big apps no real practical integration exists. Emacs is the sole living vestige of the original Desktop Computing model by Xerox where the OS was an application, a single one, fully integrated, user programmable and explorable as the user wish. We have cut such model for short-term commercial gain and LOST decades of potential evolution for a gazillion of crappy crapload of crap we have today struggling to keep ANYTHING up and running (I'm a sysadmin BTW)... I use Emacs because it's integrated, it can be extended with few sexps, more than the Unix shell and with less code, while offering an already-made set of features I like. I've abandoned my decades old hyper-curated home taxonomy to org-attach almost all my files, I've put my configs and automation from files and repos to org-mode notes, I do essentially anything in org-mode, accessing my information via org-roam, my mails via notmuch queries etc and NO modern software, even the biggest ERP can reach a comparable level of effectiveness and integration. That's is. On mobile: being a sysadmin I know the value of owning an infra and the information of our lives, so I do avoid modern cloud+mobile as much as I can for my personal stuff. When an OVH datacenter goes on flame or AWS have issues I'll not cry in tears powerless contemplating someone else dashboard. When some services skyrocket it's prices while lowering the overall quality I do not cry in tears either, I'm just concerned about what I can't control at like the availability of commodity hardware or the kind of crappy informatisations the rest of society IMPOSE also on me from banks with their crappy porcals to taxes and cars, but those are beyond my controls, so...

>There is a ton of newer, shinier apps Newer and shinier do not always translate to *better*. If anything, Emacs longevity speaks for itself. Yes, there are some users who have been using it for very long times and don't want to change. However, Emacs still manages to bring in new users. I have to disagree with you on the integration with other tools, Emacs is very extensible by design and integration is very much its strong point. Almost anything is possible with it as far as integration with other tools. That being said "integration" for emacsers often means bringing something *into* Emacs rather than be compatible with an external tool (emails, rss feeds, etc). Mobile support *is* an issue though, since emacs was not really designed with phones in mind. It still does not answer your questions. Here are my answers: \- Emacs as a platform: as I said you can do almost everything with Emacs. If anything, Emacs makes it really easy for all people (programmers and non-programmers alike) to develop and use software, using emacs-lisp (org-mode for instance). \- keyboard-driven interface: there is hardly a competition between keyboard and mouse-driven interfaces in terms of efficiency. Since so many elements of Emacs are reusable, you can be sure that once you configure something (say keybindings to move in a buffer), they will work in all contexts. Having the same keybindings across all your tools is comfortable, predictable and more efficient. \- extensibility : you, the user, can change the behaviour of the program as it is running and tweak it to your liking, implement features, etc. Configurability in Emacs is almost unparalleled honestly. Not every tool is right for everyone and maybe Emacs will someday disappear, but it is still very much a relevant tool in 2022.

> lisp inside (not the best lisp out there, but still) I still have dreams of scheme inside :/

- keyboard driven - runs on the shell if I need to do something on a server - packages for anything and everything I could ever need - continuous development and improvement - faster and less resource intensive than fucking electron 'apps' Edit: I'm a researcher. I use it mostly for programming and latex.

"Your tool sucks, why do you keep using it" isn't really honest interaction, here.

> I still have dreams of scheme inside :/ I would prefer something more Clojure-like, but Scheme is fine too

1. Nothing does common lisp like emacs. 2. Anything that stands the test of time (old tools) have proven to be reliable. new shiny toys are most likely to be gone in 5 years.

1. Amen, lol.. I'm learning lisp now. 2. i agree, i have a lot of problems with the newer tool, and I like how customizable and extensible emacs is

> Newer and shinier do not always translate to better. If anything, Emacs longevity speaks for itself. That's true. > Emacs still manages to bring in new users. Myself included. What do you use Emacs for?

I would really like to learn more. I'm learning lisp, but it's so different from anything I've used before. M-x is pretty good, I'm starting to come to grips with the ins and outs of Emacs.

I understand why people use IDEs when they work with teams. A consistent environment at scale is important. Emacs is for the individual that wants to create their own world (while going down a very deep rabbit hole lol)

>runs on the shell if I need to do something on a server actually, it doesn't > faster and less resource intensive than fucking electron 'apps' it really depends on plugins you use (and buffer sizes)

It does feel like Alice going down the rabbit hole at times. :)

The simple fact that I don’t have to lift my fingers off the keyboard. I’ve been an Emacs user for about 15 years, every once in a while I try something with a bigger audience (last was VS Code) and while I can replicate a lot of functionality and hot keys, I just can’t get over the painful context switch that is getting a mouse. If you only know mouse for navigation, I’m sure this seems like a non issue, but once you’ve seen the light it’s very hard to go back.

This is honestly one of my struggles - learning all of the shortcuts, and analysis paralysis/indecision on how to customize Emacs to best suit me.

I use it for text editing. That's what it's for! Text is: coding in various languages, email, fiction, RGP scenarios, letters, and technical (computing) documentation. I have used it in the past for chemistry material.

> actually, it doesn't is this something about the technical definition of what a shell is? I can in fact run it on the terminal on my server. Not sure what you mean. > it really depends on plugins you use (and buffer sizes) **My setup** is faster and much less resource intensive than any electron app I've tried. I also don't work on gigantic buffers. Largest buffers I edit with emacs are book chapters or datasets which are rarely more than a few hundred mbs.

>is this something about the technical definition of what a shell is? sure > I can in fact run it on the terminal on my server. terminal emulator isn't a shell. You can run shell without a terminal, you can use terminal without any shells at all. > My setup is faster and much less resource intensive than any electron app I've tried. well, most of the time mine is pretty lightweight too, but sometimes CIDER sessions become pretty fat. Just wanted to point out that no one limits Emacs from eating your resources.

> terminal emulator isn't a shell. You can run shell without a terminal, you can use terminal without any shells at all. You, and everyone else, understood what I meant. You just felt like being pedantic about it. > Just wanted to point out that no one limits Emacs from eating your resources. Electron starts out morbidly obese...

I use it pretty consistently for task management in org-mode. It is the best option I've ever found for task management just straight out of the box. It's missing features here and there, but having the tasks stored and entered directly as text makes it a lot easier to add and modify tasks than in any other program. When I try others, I always give up when my task lists start getting too long or too deep, they get unmanageable, but org-mode stays easy. I've tried doing lots of other things with Emacs, and it's usually a mixed bag. It works, and I can eventually make my own specific workflows better than with anything else, but it's also a lot more trouble to get there than with anything else. Take elfeed (RSS reader) as an example: Pro of Elfeed: * Customizable UI. For example, I can do a keybind that moves the cursor to the next article while keeping the whole window vertically centered on that line, so that I'm always looking at the center of the screen and have some peripheral vision of the next articles while going down the list. In any other feed reader, even if they have keybinds for "next article", you end up at the bottom of the screen which is just uncomfortable (physically looking down on a big monitor...). * Integratable. I can do a keybind that saves an article as a TODO item on my org-mode agenda and get rid of Instapaper. Except, sometimes I like reading on my Kindle, so I can make another one that does send it to Instapaper. * Local data. All the articles get saved locally in a format I can easily understand. * Ecosystem of other extensions. Check elfeed-score for arbitrary filters, or elfeed-tube for better youtube feeds. Cons of Elfeed, or benefits of using a webapp: * My whole Emacs would freeze every time I do an elfeed-update for a couple seconds, at the very end of it. It downloads everything and then freezes while processing. I never figured it out, and never seen anybody else complain about it. I feel bad asking about a problem that seems basic but nobody is having, because I guess it is then my problem, and I'm failing to solve it. So I just live with it. * Because of updates being disruptive (previous point), I can't run it in the background / frequently, so I run it once a day and can lose articles on feeds that get updated very often. * An RSS Reader is something that's pretty useful to have on an external server that can take care of constantly runnning it and be synced with an Android app. The experience of going through my feeds on the webapp is worse than my configured Emacs, but going through them on my phone is actually pretty convenient to fill empty time. This was about reading RSS, but it's pretty representative of my overall experience. Emacs usually wins when I put time on it, but sometimes I'll run into a wall where hey, this is going to take a lot of time. And it's not as decisively better than the alternatives as org-mode is, might as well try something else. And then I go back and forth. I do seem to always end up back with Emacs anyway. Since college, for about 10 years.

> You just felt like being pedantic about it. Sure, and I'm not going to stop being that, because people tend to mix both two terms very often without understanding that these are completely different things.

I thought I'd stop mixing them up, but now, just for that, I'll mix them up on purpose every single chance I get.

> And then I go back and forth. Story of my life.

> I'll mix them up on purpose every single chance I get. sounds like cutting off nose to spite face to me

I use it to write code and prose (using org-mode as the markup of choice). I recently wrote a paper entirely with org-mode. I could have used pure latex, but I really like org syntax a lot better and I can write latex in the file if I really need it anyway. I read and write emails with mu4e. I read rss feeds with elfeed. I also use `dired` as my primary file manager and I find `wdired` (writable dired) to be extremely powerful and convenient.