[Help needed] Emacs is to a text editor as X is to Y?

I'm starting at a new large company shortly and I'll need to justify why I want Emacs on my computer. For context: * the new firm is a Microsoft shop - to the extent that "cloud" == "Azure" (only) and GNU Linux or Apple is not even a dream at the moment * I'm going to be one of the grown-ups in the room, running a team of technical people, but not coders, I guess the closest concept is technology consulting (if any of my team has ever heard of Emacs I'll be surprised!) * as a grown-up I'll not be writing much (any) code, and I'm guessing coders get VSCode, because, well, MS * *I* code, so elisp will be invaluable to me to build all those little tools to actually GSD * I'm not a windows person, so I don't have any starting points for windows-specific examples So when I go in and say to tech that I want to install this currently non-approved "text editor", I want to be able to say that Emacs is so much more than an editor, but using an example that translates to a Windows tech support person. I thought of something like "Windows isn't just a way of displaying windows, it's an operating system" - but I'm not sure that suggesting I'm installing a whole new operating system is a good look on day one... Does anyone have a good way of describing (concisely) Emacs in an analogy? I've seen [this link](https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/wrkwz0/is_this_a_good_way_to_describe_emacs/), but it seemed to get into arguments around web browsers and JS and answers that were for a full on discussion, rather than a quick justification like I need. Did I miss any other discussions that I should have seen before posting?

Why complicate things, you say you are the grown up of the team it means they trust your judgment, just say its one of your productivity tools.

Naturally, I'm going to try that as my first step, but not all corps allow "just trust me" as a reason.

Not sure what your company work culture is, but your approach seems a bit odd to me. I would rather address the issue from the perspective of what work task you need emacs for exactly. Or maybe your approximation of your effectiveness on your tasks comparing to alternatives. For me personally that would be GTD with org-mode (not quite available in any other editors I know), and version control with magit (leagues more efficient than any alternative I know).

I’d keep it low-key and leave yourself out of it, honestly. Say you need it; if asked why, say that it’s a trustworthy, venerable, and industry-standard tool; if pressed further, say it’d be *highly unusual* to disallow it. Even the pettiest strawmanager I can think of would take that offer to save face. The most restriction I’ve ever had a company impose is along the lines of “if you connect to this server via emacs, don’t use such-and-such package because we can’t configure it not to cache sensitive data locally” Anyway, most IT people would likely approve your request without fuss, but nonetheless, good luck :)

If you're a senior member you should have some leeway in your tools. I'm not entirely sure why this would be such a problem as to warrant a multi-pronged convincing strategy, when the policy is either made by legal to ensure that licenses are respected (in which case, emacs shouldn't be an issue) or it's restricted because of licensing agreements signed with Microsoft, in which case, the answer is going to be no, no matter what your arguments are. If you don't have admin access, get it under the pretext of needing some tools that run a layer above user to monitor system use. Install emacs. Done. If they question you, say you thought the policy was for tools with a payment plan and not for free stuff. This is extremely unlikely to happen.

Why exactly do you need permission to install Emacs on a windows machine? Even if it is a locked down machine you can download and use Emacs without installing it. On windows it’s still going to be a relatively subpar experience practically using Emacs without the additional stuff like MSYS2 or WSL, to enable access to unix tools. MSYS2 can be installed without admin.

If you have to convince someone that should be able to use Emacs, my guess is that you may be better off telling them it's a text editor (one that you're used to and like), than telling them it's some powerful thing that lets you do all kinds of stuff. Emacs doesn't cost anything, so $$ can't be a reason for refusal (unless they're worried about having to support/maintain it somehow). My guess would be that someone would be more likely to not allow you to have it if they think it might let you do more than simply edit text. Editing text doesn't sound very risky. I suppose they could be concerned that text you produce with your text editor might not be compatible with other text the company uses to communicate. It should be easy to disabuse them of that worry. Tell them it's a plain-text editor - a harmless tool that you're used to. Tell them you write/edit faster with it because you do everything with keyboard "shortcuts" etc. Fast, free, simple - what's the worry?

Maybe Emacs is to an text editor like modern browser is to a remote document viewer?

*…a thermonuclear warhead is to a pointy stick* Mm… maybe less violent is better. Emacs is to a text editor as an excavator is to a shovel. The former takes much more time to get used to, but once you've mastered it, no one would insist you use the latter to dig out a basement.

I’d tell them it’s an IDE and offline text based productivity tool that is so helpful that most people who have picked it up in the past whatever years of it’s professional existence (I’d spend more time figuring out how to explain that it’s battle tested and been considered a golden standard before either of us were in the industry) don’t typically enjoy downgrading their workflow. “It’s got more keyboard shortcuts than any comparable by like… a lot. I take a lot of enjoyment in doing my work with that tool and all the effort I’ve invested into learning this awesome tool”.

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If I am on windows (without WSL). I will just use vscode. That’s the reason why I don’t use windows.

Since it is a MS house, as PowerShell is to a terminal. Sure you can list directories and browse settings, but you can also script and customize the OS to lock it down, create automation routines and quickly bring up Azure instances as needed because of its tight integration with MS. Emacs is the same thing for Text. Sure you can type a program or a document, but you can use it as an organizer, scripting toolkit, ssh manager, web browser without JS for safety and productive use of company time and so much more. You can make the same analogy with Excel. The most common use of Excel is making a list. But Excel can do so much more, and in the right hands, it can increase your value to the company orders of magnitude.

I think that the real question you should be asking yourself is whether you want to work at that company. It seems to me that you come from a entirely different background than the culture that you are describing for being the way they work and behave in that company. I'm a sysadmin with more than 25 years of experience, and most of that is in Linux/Unix. I have not used windows in years so my knowledge there is limited and out-dated. Based on previous experiences and on my knowledge set, I have made the concious decision no longer to accept or even apply at companies where the computing universe is basically "only or strongly microsoft". The few time I have not adhered to that "rule" and accepted gigs at such companies have always ended bad. Either prematurely or with a bad after-taste. Life is too short, to support that attitude. In the end its only a job, and as an IT person worth your salt, the pay difference will not be that big. Since you will be spending a big part of your time at or working for the company you may as well do that at some place that is more in line with your views and values.

The ultimate arguement is, "im testing the azure version on my desktop". ;)

I'd say Emacs is a multi-tool. It's a text editor the same way a Swiss army knife or a Leatherman is a knife, and I use it constantly for a wide variety of tasks.

Or Emacs is a text editor the same way a smartphone is a phone. Technically that's its core functionality but it can do so much more.

man if a company would tell me what os or editor i should use, i wouldn't work there a second

You could try proof-by-intimidation and use the analogy Neal Stephenson made in In the Beginning Was the Command Line: > Emacs outshines all other editing software in approximately the same way that the noonday sun does the stars. It is not just bigger and brighter; it simply makes everything else vanish. More seriously, I had to get approval to use Emacs when I was at Amazon, and while it was technically prohibited, so many of us from across the company used it that we got waivers without too much trouble. It wasn't an analogy, it was an appeal to utility along the lines of: > I'm a professional (that's why you hired me!) and one of the tools I use to author documents, track my work, and automate tasks is my text editor, Emacs. It's available free of charge, is ~40 years old, and its source code can be inspected. I need to install it to get my work done, and I'm hoping you can help me with that. Good luck!

But Emacs does cost something if he, like most of us, spends more time tweaking his config than actually working .... ;)

> “if you connect to this server via emacs, don’t use such-and-such package because we can’t configure it not to cache sensitive data locally” Wow, I'd love that level of competence in our IT ;-)

I work at a place like what you described. Honestly, if they don’t want to give it to you, they won’t. If you really want to fight it, they usually have some kind of documented process to introduce a new software. You fight it thru that process. Or, they probably have some exceptions made already like Cygwin or WSL. I think you are better off going through that route.

Well, [we are hiring](https://groq.com/careers/) (…they’d want me to mention, lol) Nothing’s all sunshine and daisies, of course, but I genuinely like the work a lot, and I have a wealth of great coworkers

Thanks. That's probably one of the most helpful comments.

This would have to be some of the worst advice I've ever seen. Getting it "under the pretext" is just a bad move - and often enough reason to be sacked. Companies have rules, so either work with them (& if necessary try to change them) or leave. For the earlier career readers - Don't try to "get around" the corp rules.

lol

Same. I use VS Code on Windows.