Prot is asking for help to move countries

https://protesilaos.com/news/2022-11-05-help-me-find-job-move-country/ I know he doesn't typically come over to Reddit, but I thought it would be worthwhile to let folks know that he's looking for some kind-heartedness right now. I think he's a treasure to the Emacs community and worth investing in. His public contact information is listed on his website: https://protesilaos.com/contact/ so I'll message him directly about what methods will work best and update this post with more info if I find out.

What's the company in Malaga, Spain that does financial analysis using Common Lisp? Raven something? Might be worth checking if they'd be interested in hiring an elisp expert for their support team.

this occurred to me as well.. Ravenpack https://ravenpack.teamtailor.com/jobs/2152597-common-lisp-developer

Seems like a pretty good fit for Prot... wouldn't want him slinging Java or something. It would be a crying shame.

Adding to the link, I'd like to remind that one can also support Prots financially as described in https://protesilaos.com/donations/ **EDIT**: Judging from cost of living in Cyprus[1], all it takes is 150 people (- [2]) who enjoy modus-themes and other Prot's work and are willing to give away a Dropbox subscription worth monthly to solve the problem for good. [1] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Cyprus [2] https://liberapay.com/protesilaos/

how can someone with his ability to code (albeit in Lisp) not get most entry level engineering roles? i think he's undervaluing himself.

Probably, but you also have to get through HR and they have a list of things they're supposed to look for, which usually specify things like X years in Y language. I applied for a devops type job at a company once, and should have been a shoe-in. They asked if I knew Linux, and I said yes (I've been using it for twenty-five years), but that I was more of a BSD guy. I'm pretty sure that's what cost me the job - someone in the know would have considered BSD experience a plus, since pretty much everyone's thrown Linux on a machine and played around with it, but only people with some amount of experience move to the BSDs. This interviewer didn't know that, and I never heard back from them. So telling an interviewer you're a Lisp expert when they're looking for a Java programmer might not help.

Because there are very few companies that are looking for people to program in Lisp. He could just learn a couple more programming languages that are in demand, and build 1-2 projects in a the field he's interested in working in. Then it should be easy to find entry level jobs.

If this role interests u/protesilaos, would it be worth some of us recommending him to the company's recruiter? I should think recommendations from the Emacs community would carry some weight for a company looking for a Common Lisp developer.

Yes but that likely won't help him out of the mess he is in. It takes time to learn those things and to build up a CV that would pass the initial screenings anywhere. If you have anything "abnormal" in your CV or it misses the right keywords that the HR robots look for (most screening is automated today - pretty much nobody reads your cover letters and CVs ...), he has exactly zero chance of ever getting a call back. Even for experienced people with good CVs it is often surprisingly hard to actually find new jobs because of how dysfunctional the HR agencies and the entire hiring process in this field is today (and then companies complain about difficulties of finding talent ...). The need to relocate and limited current skill set make that only that much more difficult. I have relocated 3 times within EU already, last time last year (FR->DE) - and it is neither fun, nor cheap. I have spent over 10k€ on it, all counted. The move itself (cca 600km) was only about 2500€ (I am single and have a small household - someone moving a large family across Europe will pay a lot more) but the various other expenses are not fun (flat hunting, deposits, replacing/buying furniture, unexpected car costs, ...). You do get some money back because the employer usually offers a relocation bonus and some can be claimed back from the taxes for that year, but 2/3rd of it are still out of your own pocket. His best bet is looking and asking about in his network, someone has to know someone who could have work for him. I.e. exactly what he is doing right now (the Emacs community is his extended network).

Not speaking for him but for myself... easy: autism. I work as a rigger a sort of menial blue collar job... but at Uni I topped graduate level war games and was also a technologist in some very high risk human rights situations that made a global impact and used to visit the CCC yearly. I vow never to work with white collar envieonment or computers again unless maybe I could do something really wholesome with like Clojure or Common Lisp. The average programming place or Java PHP Python culture is going to be about crap unimaginative thoughts and driven by crap interests with some huge amount of conceptual proliferation and white collar social rituals (bullshit is worse around people with 125+ IQ). If a place had a sense of beauty, parsimony, truth and some sort of social mission I'd be interested. Hell even high finance as capital at the upper echelons is not stupid and they understand importance of clear thought and odd ideas, but maybe not great long term for the heart.

I am not for telling lies but there's an argument that if you have done your research on the tech team and you respect them intellectually and think they will respect you and HR is the way... write complete bullshit to get past them and just to get to the tech interview or on the job. This is pretty much how it works in construction on jobs with solid conditions doing the cool stuff like Crane installs... the other crew might know you are green (a green shoot need to be trained and slightly dangerous to leave unsupervised) but if they like you / you are in the union etc you just completely bullshit the boss to get on site. Never bullshit your fellow co-workers. Bullshit the boss. Never bullshit to your fellow workers (that actually do the creating). The problem with white collar stuff is that line is sometimes very murky and theres managers and managers on mamagers and corporate speak and people wanting to be the boss etc. Be a tradesperson... a craftsperson... take satisfaction in the integrity of ones creation and co-operate with the other creators. "The guild". Never bullshit the guild... its stupid from a self interested perspective as the ones that are good can easily see you are green. You can look down to see who is less skilled and needs mentoring but its hard to look up and see which people really do know their shit inside out. If you do not have integrity with "the guild" you won't get the respect you need to develop your livelihood and trade. Its easy to respect someone with less skills who is sincere and wanting to learn and puts effort into trying and has integrity. Better to say you know nothing than to bullshit you know something to "the guild" Its ok to bullshit HR/the boss.

> His best bet is looking and asking about in his network, someone has to know someone who could have work for him. I.e. exactly what he is doing right now (the Emacs community is his extended network). That's true. But it would help a lot if he has also spent a few months acquiring knowledge of the domain and of the tools/programming languages used. He said that he is looking into learning a new language for this purpose in the video, which would be very helpful.

Yes, sure - but the point is he doesn't have "a few months" if you read his post. He has to leave his apartment (got notice from the landlord) and does not have money to spare. So he needs a new job and more affordable place to live ASAP and not maybe in a few months that he has spent learning stuff instead of job/house hunting. By that time he could be as well homeless.

It's much easier to make living as a frontend&fullstack web developer than as a Lisp developer. My 5 cents as a professional web developer, - javascript/html/css knowledge could help a lot to find an onsite/remote web developer job in EU or elsewhere - https://eloquentjavascript.net/ is a nice ebook to learn javascript - Knowledge on frontend framework react&angular is also needed in real world frontend projectss. - backend knowledge (node js, mongodb, postgresql, ...) is required for a fullstack job

I think it is amazing how he is such a quick study and he was able to teach himself how to code in Lisp in just a few years, he is definitely a smart guy. That said, working on your own projects and working on a team of developers are different skill sets. Also, being able to code and being able to understand computer science from first principles are two different skills. It isn't impossible, but the hard truth is that he doesn't have much real world experience, and this puts him in league with people fresh out of college who have formal training in computer science. This makes it hard to get a job. But I sure would hire him if I it were my decision (which unfortunately it is not). And I'd be sure to have him read through [The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs](https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262510875/structure-and-interpretation-of-computer-programs/ ) as part of his acclimation period.

In the website he says > Though time is working against me and I will not be able to stay here for much longer. I have to be decisive before the Spring of 2023 or Summer at the latest. So he does have some time, though if he can move immediately then I guess it's even better.

Try to contact Google.

Yeah but keep in mind that organizing an international move is often 6 months+ job - even when you don't need to deal with visas, securing work and residence permits, etc. And that is after you have actually found a job! Spring 2023 is in 4 months or so + it is winter with holidays, possible covid restrictions, etc. This is really not time to start learning e.g. Javascript or machine learning or whatever. And even if he did it, it still won't help him any because unless there is some documented experience using that skill on the CV, he still won't get a job/land an interview. Saying "Hey, I have spent 6 months learning Typescript with React or playing with machine learning models." is really not enough for that unless you have some actual professional experience where you have used that on your CV already. So his best bet is to try get work doing what he knows already, move, get things settled down - and only then focus on gaining new skills and advancing career once those basics like food on the table and roof over the head are sorted out. Doing it in reverse is a recipe for a disaster, especially if you don't have savings, family nearby that can support you or you do have a family you need to provide for.

Does anyone know offhand which donation avenue nets prot the highest percentage after conversions and fees between github, liberapay, and paypal?

Interviewing is a skill. I've been a Product Manager for a long time (but with Data heavy products so my technical skills have always come into question). One interviewer asked me if I knew SQL. I went on a diatribe about how my Python/Dataframe knowledge was much stronger so my SQL was a bit rusty or something similar. The correct answer was "yes, yes I fucking do". It wasn't the only thing that cost me the job, but it didn't help. Similar to you, if the person in question knew what I meant by a dataframe/applying Python and/or Scala to the problem they'd understand that I was just commenting on syntax.. but whatever.

Would prot be a good fit tho? I don't think he has some programming experience in a company? Interviewing remotely is kinda hard for non experienced dev and getting experienced may be better in a IRL office env. May be having someone from the community helping him getting started by providing him an accommodation in Berlin London or Paris and let him easily prospect for startups at his pace? (Would love to hot prot but I am nowhere in a hot startup scene city)

I can't see why not. He has proven that he can code in a Lisp to a high level at least to my novice eyes. This role is looking for a Lisp developer. I am confident he would pick up the differences with Common Lisp very quickly. He is an excellent communicator with a command of English better than most native speakers. He has stated that he knows some Spanish too so he would have no problem integrating into life there. He writes prose and non-prose eloquently. His package documentation is excellent.

This is bad advice, lying your way over to an interview is not the way.

Not sure, but I sponsored him on github just now after trying liberapay, which seemingly can't support recurring payments bc his account is only setup for paypal, so it looks like for now the options are basically github if you want to pay on a recurring basis and paypal if you want to donate a lump sum?

I applied for this position several months ago. My experience: 1 round of a general "get to know you" interview. 1 round of a take-home "programming challenge". I was asked not to share it, so I won't - but it was focused around efficiently processing text. I did submit an answer written in Emacs lisp. I also had to write the equivalent of a small package to work around the fact that there's no native way to have a file stream in elisp. In addition to finding the solution(s), they also asked for a Big O analysis of the algorithm and a couple other questions. I was scheduled for a third round technical interview. They sent me a CL program, a different solution to the same problem described above, and asked that I review it. The expectation was that I would be able to walk through it and answer some questions about it. About an hour prior to the interview, the recruiter contacted me to inform me that the position was placed on hold and they were not able to fill it. I reached out to them after seeing that the position is open again and I was told it is now full time in-office (it was initially a remote position). Their offices are in Marbella, Spain. Bummer because I like what they're doing (NLP) and how they're doing it (CL), but relocating is not an option for me.

You'd think they wouldn't be so picky about in person when it comes to finding CL devs... Too bad. Does seem like an interesting product

A direct bank transfer, which he has the details for listed on the donations page should net him 100% Also, I believe LibrePay does not take a cut of any donations, but to keep itself up rather has its own donation page

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I've sent him a little bit of money via PayPal and I'm sponsoring him on Github. I know this is not a long-term solution, but I imagine things are really hard for him and every penny (or eurocent) counts. He's about my age and I'm lucky that I've had friends and family around me otherwise I would have probably stared into the same abyss.

Literally the FSF job looks great for him: https://www.fsf.org/resources/jobs/fsf-jqob-opportunity-licensing-and-compliance-manager It seesm more community than legal, if so he would be great.

He also made a video on the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtLrdFH6eJk&t=1s

Liberapay is actually focusing on recurring payments. If Paypal does not allow those, Liberapay just asks to pay for a few months in advance and send a reminder later.

Github does not charge individuals (for now). Liberapay also does not charge (and promises not to forever). However, Paypal does (a few percent). If Prots is using Sripe with Github sponsors, he does get charged, but lower than Paypal. If he uses fiscal host instead, fiscal host is likely charging him around 10%.

It seems everyone is overlooking the elephant in the room when it comes to getting a job in the Western world in particular, his philosophical values and beliefs. You can rest assured that his values don't find favour in many corporate environments, whether charitable, non-profit or commercial, not even the FSF and their woke politics. Yes the FSF has become infected with corporate wokeness as have many open source oriented organizations, with their endless codes of conduct.. Someone who is clear in his beliefs of how the economy should be structured won't appeal to the leaders of such organizations simply because they have all become fronts for commercial interests hellbent on controlling the opposition.

Prot has really strong soft skills and is a good, thorough writer and thinker, and having a philosophy degree and a blog certainly helps. I'm sure there are employers looking for these skills as well.