Don't understand org-mode

I've used Emacs for 30 years. You'll pry it out of my cold, dead hands. I've written plenty of elisp for it. Org-mode is a mystery to me though. Maybe I haven't run across the right tutorial, but my impression is that it is a fancy outline maker. Half of the positive things people say about Emacs seem to be about org-mode, but everyone seems to use it in different ways, for different things. Ironically, org-mode is daunting in its breadth the same way that Emacs itself must be for new users. Are there good resources that can explain the philosophy and applications of org-mode?

yes org-mode has its own cult followers and I never find it useful. as a markup language format, it's not simple as markdown and not powerful as latex. as a "productivity" tool, it offers nothing more than a simple to-do app. any extra feature is unneeded.

I don't know that there is a good unique resource. I got into it as a boiling frog. I needed an outlining tool and it works well for that. Then I needed to clock in and out of tasks, it has a solution for that. Then I neededa daily agenda view of my task. Also supported out of the box. Then I needed a PKMS and I am now fully bought in org-roam. My advice would be to give it a spin as you would for a hobby (if you are into these kind of things). Maybe it will stick.

What do you mean by “PKMS”? I’m not familiar with that term.

Personal Knowledge Management System. There are many options with and without emacs. You can look into org-roam, obsedian, or roam research to see example. It is a nice rabbit hole to get into if you have time!

Same meh here and I'll raise you the cultish note-taking enterprise whose promotion of opaque-sounding methods like "Zettlekasten" can apparently sustain a raft of for-profit companies like Roam and Obsidian. In any real-time note-taking context, like a university lecture, org-mode and friends would seem singularly ill-equipped for the task as it's too slow, and lacks pen and paper's two-dimensional range for diagrams, equations, margin scribbling, arrows projecting every which way. And for typed notes, "grep" seems like a sufficiently powerful retrieval mechanism that doesn't require the conscious annotation of "backlinks" (it would seem all links are bidirectional, but whatever). I've always maintained however that one does not question markets. If there's an audience willing to pay for this stuff, there's someone willing to provide it. Now if only someone would pay for emacs development...

>as a markup language format, it's not simple as markdown A lot of the basic markup syntax is more intuitive, though: `/italics/`, `*bold*`, `_underline_` are no-brainers, and `+strikethrough+` and `=code=` are memorable enough. Compare that with Markdown's `*italic*` and `**bold**` and `_italic_`... I'll give you ``code`` though.

there is no italics or bold in markdown. this is a common misconception. markdown only defines emphasis and strong emphasis.

No one has mentioned the executable code blocks - If you've ever enjoyed making a jupyter notebook and wished it supported something other than python or for more IDE features (I know there are ways to remedy this) then org-mode is worth a look.

I agree. Never understood the appeal of Zettlekasten. That said, I find Org a useful format for work documentation and journaling. It has first-class date support for searchable daily entries, and executable code blocks with arbitrary language support. Not a huge learning curve for this purpose.

The fancy (and useful) outliner is one aspect, BUT there is another IMVHO more important: integration ability. ALL modern desktops with their own separate apps or crappy, complicated and limited desktop IPC (from KDE/Gnome stuff beyond FreeDesktop to Windows OLE) completely fails to integrate anything in general, in UI terms in particular. Org-mode linking abilities offer the "modern" document UI we generally need, oft not knowing such need. Elisp and mere buffers are ok, of course, they do the mechanic part of integration, but fails in UI terms: I do not write my mail in elisp directy, I do not take notes in elisp directly. While with org-mode a clickable/executable element (i.e. an elisp: link) can run code to send a new mail, to compose an agenda, to run an org-ql queries on my notes, ... this is the same glue ability Python offer for classic *nix environments, lacking the UI. Emacs offer a full, native integration of anything instead of countless separate programs badly gluable with some CLI IPCs and standards, and org-mode offer the UI. Yes, Emacs should not be classify as an editor (in the classic sense) but as a desktop environment, a single application operating system where anything is integrated like classic Xerox or LispM workstations with org-mode as it's X11. That's IMO the most important org-mode aspect. The other different usages fall under the integration/implementation category of the above concepts, for instance personally I use org-roam as a search&narrow UI to my information, org-attach to handle my files (and small tree attached as needed) they are both "different usages" but both are just something on top of a document based UI with the Emacs integrated environment. I do not know specific resources on that, unfortunately too many are so inhabited with the "modern desktop" concept and some "techniques" about notes, PIM, PKM, ... that they even refuse the concept of something different, even using it. But if you try to imaging your desktop booting to Emacs/EXWM with a generic org-agenda or scratch buffer in org-mode to start, org-roam to access anything like "hit-a-key, type 'sum 22' to see summer 2022 photos", in the opened buffer with photos organized in various ways you have links to a hotel bill, a confirmation email, ... well... See an old Xerox demo and you'll understand :-)

I use it for taking technical notes because org-babel can: 1. Query a database and display results as a table. 2. Run a Python session across multiple source blocks. 3. Post-process results of any source code block and display them in the document, for example Typescript output inside a <script> tag wrapped by an export html block which will be working Javascript code in the html export of the document. 4. Compile C programs (best used for small proof of concept tests). 5. Tangling any source code blocks into files so they can be run from shell source blocks from the same document, or for whatever. 6. Using noweb to include other source blocks into the current one so you can then execute it or tangle it as it was one program. 7. Evaluate elisp that gets you data from the document and using constants or calling source blocks in line with different arguments. So for school and research is very useful. For production of course you move to an IDE but you can use what you wrote in the org file as documentation.

I suspect that Zettelkasten was more useful in the era of paper-based notetaking, when your entries were not searchable unless you indexed them and left references around through links and backlinks. Today, grep obsoletes a lot of that labor.

I [wrote up this attempt to explain it](http://atomized.org/blog/2018/09/19/what-even-is-org-mode/) a while back, and still think it does a good job. But the glib answer of "Org Mode is like Emacs, for Emacs" actually isn't far off the mark. "Everyone seems to use it in different ways, for different things" is just as applicable to both Emacs and Org Mode.

I came to it somewhat recently after years and years of trying to make other todo/GTD/calendar/scheduling apps work. I tried Todoist, Trello, google calendar/tasks, and others. I always had a vague desire to just toss aside all these GUI applications, with their arbitrary rendering of my data, weird or nonexistent key chords, and to use something even as simple as plain-text or markdown files, which I could never make work on its own as it's too simplistic. So I wanted to still have an application that has some awareness of the structure of my text. But I kept putting off learning how to use emacs and org-mode. I can't explain your impression of it, but I can just speak for myself, I was blown away when I finally started using it. Even without any integrations, just at a baseline, especially with things like org-agenda, it's *incredible* how many basic things it does really well compared to any todo application I've ever tried before, so it's been a good start even without getting very far into it. Especially coming to it as a heavy vim user via Doom/evil-mode, I think the main key to it for me is the simultaneous lack & presence of structure. In other words, I'm free of the arbitrary rendering/structure imposed by each GUI application for no apparent reason, letting me deal with my own information as freeform text in an editor, which is great considering the ease afforded by vim motions and vim's melodic key bindings via evil mode that I'm comfortable with from vim. So it's very amenable to the kind of text-editing I'm used to and enjoy. With org-mode in particular, this also means room for somewhat arbitrary organization/hierarchy - if I want to maintain a flat or nested hierarchy of TODOs, both are fine to org-mode. At the same time, there's enough structure and awareness of what the text means that it's more than just a plain-text file or markdown file - which is _exactly_ the sweet spot that I always wanted. It parses all your org files to figure out what are all the TODO items, when are they scheduled, what are their subtasks (and how many or what percentage of subtasks are complete). You also have simple key bindings for toggling the status, scheduling, creating a new item, adjusting the positioning of items in their surrounding hierarchy (shift left/right), etc. And from there, you have todo & agenda views, which collect and display all the information, and make it navigable. To me it feels finally I have something that gives me more than snowball's chance in hell to perform a simple system like GTD without the distraction/interference and subscription/payment structure imposed by GUI applications that may or may not be around tomorrow. What worked for me for getting over the initial hurdle was to just search youtube for some basic video walkthroughs of the core features, and org-agenda. I found these pretty good for some initial hand-holding: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34zODp_lhqg. This guy isn't a programmer, but does a good enough job walking through the basics (using Doom though, so ymmv). * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNE-mgkZ6HM&t=59s. A bit more of a programmer's perspective. So that's just scratching the surface of resources, but worked for me as an on-ramp.

> Half of the positive things people say about Emacs seem to be about org-mode, but everyone seems to use it in different ways, for different things. That's the thing: You can use it for whatever you want. And you will only "get it", if you try it and use it for things you need. Then you will know, whether it is for you or not.

Org is what brought me to emacs, while looking for a tool in which I could do both note taking and project management (I'm a civil engineer btw, not a programmer, although I'm fluent in autolisp and decent in python). Damn it was like hitting two brick walls at once!! Left for a couple of months, but I couldn't find something I could shape it to my needs (most other solutions try the opposite), couldn't stand another paper notebook (I fill 3-4 large ones every year, try grepping that :D), so I just bit the bullet and went head on to those walls on a summer vacation. Define your use case and look how already advanced people are doing it. That's what got me unstuck the most. Other than that I used only the official docs.

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I appreciated your description of Vim's keybindings: "melodic". I very much agree.

On mobile so can't double check, but I think it's =verbatim= and ~code~.

Maybe start with a talk about org-mode by the original author: [https://youtu.be/oJTwQvgfgMM](https://youtu.be/oJTwQvgfgMM) The big idea is to incorporate metadata into your outline and therefore eliminate the need for distributing data for the same project into a calendar, a notebook, spreadsheets, a word processor etc. - you can keep it as plain text, put it under version control if you want to and export what you need into other formats if necessary.

One thing that is really cool is to run a code block that executes code on a remote machine and view the result locally. So you don't need to copy large amounts of data to post-process it.

I find Org Mode syntax is nicer and more complete than Markdown for keeping my daily journal. I've used it for to-dos, and the way it treats recurring/repeating to-dos is probably the strongest I've seen.

Ah, thanks. Yeah org is kinda weird in that `=verbatim=` and `~code~` get exported the same way a lot of the time so they're sort of interchangeable.

This is the way I have an almost completely different arc, but it's just a different frog, different pot, different fire. Org Mode is popular because it's utterly, ridiculously useful for an utterly, ridiculously wide range of applications. It's also plain text, so editing it is a breeze. Easy as markdown. But inside Emacs, org mode makes markdown look like ... Uh .. plain text. Don't question the nonlinear learning curve. Just go back in time and become a beginner again every once in a while

I'm with you, FWIW. I did use it the other day, however, for a quick-and-dirty creation of an HTML file. Simple and quick - trivial to do, even. I don't need to do that in general, however. And I haven't run into other Orgisms that I think might make my life easier or more interesting. So ... you're not alone, at least. That's not to say Org mode isn't useful. Clearly many/most Emacs users are aficionados.

Maybe the main thing interesting about Zettlekasten is its name. At least in English it sounds quite impressive. Herr Doktor Zettlekasten is in. > Sorry, I'd love to chat a few minutes with you, but I have an appointment with my Zettlekasten master... > I'm off to Zettlekast a shipload of live Zettlekastables. But then, the only list-making I find interesting and useful is with `cons`.

The computer can automate the mechanics of it, but the main purpose is a easy way to review your notes and generate ideas later. This is the discipline that is very much lacking in a lot of ways, so the market fills up to this perceived lack. Making it easier to get into it isn't a bad thing, so long as we stick with it.

Org-mode seems nebulous because it can fit a large spectrum of use-cases. I came to org-mode to combine LaTex based papers with Literate Programming. It is a solution that has fit my needs extraordinarily well. Working your way up the curve is a mater of picking a simple use-case, using up-to-date information \[see package docs\], and practice. Pit-falls include out of date information, and unfocused exploration.

Yeah, I think that's the problem. I might have a use-case which is perfect for org-mode, but I would never think to use it for that, because how would I know that org-mode does that? But, that's Emacs for you.

What got me interested in org-mode was watching this YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzA2YODtgK4. I happened to see it at just the right time, when I was looking to migrate from Google's crap to a privacy-conscious, note-taking solution. Org-mode itself wasn't extremely useful to me until I paired it with org-roam and notdeft. However, I recommend getting your feet wet with the basics and only adding extensions when you find that org-mode doesn't do something that you wished it did.

I could never get into the much-hyped all-consuming "org-mode lifestyle" either. I've only ever seriously used org-mode as a source format for preparing LaTeX documents, with the help of [pandoc](https://pandoc.org/). I think you should just go through the org-mode manual and find the subset of its features that seem useful to you. Most of the coverage about org-mode on the emacs blogosphere is more concerned with promoting the "org-mode lifestyle". Org-mode is great software but I don't think many people will find it appealing to use it that way.

I am mostly with you. I've used emacs since 1984 using Gosling's Emacs. I was looking for a way to keep track of time for my projects and found a web page that told me to use Org mode. So I read some of the Org manual in PDF form. PDFs don't work well on iOS so I converted it to epub. You can download a copy of it [here](why-not-photography.com/drop/org.epub). BUT... it is just the original Org manual -- which overwhelms me. Basically if you need a tool such as a better version of markdown or a better way to do outlines or a better way to do literate programming, Org mode is worth the cost to learn but just the piece that you need. I'm now using it as my blog / diary type thing keeping track of my hours as I write my latest project. Just like Emacs, the power is infinite. Just like Emacs, it is infinitely complex. I don't know everything about Emacs ... just tiny things that I need and use every day. I am currently having the same issue with zsh. It is infinitely versatile and complex.

You've just described exactly what I'm trying to build. A PKM that I can actually live inside of.

> my impression is that it is a fancy outline maker You are not wrong about that one :). Amongst other things ... > org-mode is daunting in its breadth the same way that Emacs itself must be for new users Indeed, it is. Just like Emacs, take the parts you need and don't care about rest until or if you need it. It is a bit of a problem with org-mode that it tries to take everything useful and turn it into org-something-*. Lots of stuff could have been just part of Emacs on its own. It is a bit similar situation like with Hyperbole. But in general, org-mode is an application for note-taking and project , planning, literal programming and comes with a slew of small utilities that might be useful for those like tables, dates manipulation, structure management (outline/headings), text rendering, etc. If you write your own stuff, org has a lot of useful stuff you can re-use in your lisp. In my opinion, org-babel could have been its own Emacs application without any problems, tables could have been it's own Emacs application and minor mode (they started so before they got incorporated into org), date manipulation as well, and probably some other things. Those things would be useful on its own, in other modes, without pulling the entire org, if restructured. It isn't though a dealbreaker if they come as part of org either since everything is included. But I agree it can feel overwhelming if one tries to take in everything at once.

As it is usually the case in Emacs, skimming through the manual (https://orgmode.org/manual/Summary.html) can give you an idea about possibilities. If you prefer videos, check out https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVtKhBrRV_ZkPnBtt_TD1Cs9PJlU0IIdE. It goes through the main Org features one by one in short 5-10minutes chunks. Finally, we have accumulated a number of enty-level articles at https://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/index.html

You don't see the utility in having a personal wiki with built-in agendas, maps, internet links, embedded media/document files, math and code, version control, logs, contact info, email, irc, rss, and everything else right there embedded in your notes? Seems like you think org is just another markup language.

Note that the original Zetlekasten is based on pen and paper. So, you can scribble freely. It can be useful when you need to deal with something less organized compared to lecture notes(like actual research). See https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/NfdHG6oHBJ8Qxc26s/the-zettelkasten-method-1

whatever you mentioned is exactly what I deem useless.

This is my experience with OM as an organizer, too. I've been avid but inconsistent about organization systems before, and Org is the first one that I've stuck to so consistently. I just checked back and my first to-do item was recorded almost exactly two years ago, without any sign of flagging or falling off the wagon. I also started tracking habits at the start of this year and have been keeping it going for much of the year, which has made a huge difference for my projects and sheer mental health. Writing is another major application of Org Mode for me, including a long prose project (the one I track as a habit) and my blog, via ox-hugo. I love the flexibility to structure things how I like, and it's really convenient to have all the blog posts in one file.

Damn, thirteen thousand words of Werner Erhard level psychobabble. Not even the info page for Gnus is that mealy-mouthed.

The one feature I think is super useful is the code eval. That and having a hotkey to work with dates.

Same impression. It’s powerful but useless at the final if your teams don’t use it you can’t share anything…

I need neither.

In short, https://0x0.st/oVsS.jpg Instead of putting everything into one huge paper notebook, write on cards that can be referenced later.

Collaboration is indeed a weak point of Org. However, there are https://org-web.org/ and https://logseq.com/

Why do you think they are useless?

Why do I have to think they are useful?

I asked why you don't think they're useful, I didn't say "you should think they're useful"

You don't need any reason to think something useless. Uselessness is the default.

I feel the same way, and you've captured that feeling clearly~

You can use `:cache` to only re-execute explicitly/on-change, preventing evaluating the whole buffer from doing unnecessary work, though I haven't checked to see if it accounts for when noweb refs have changed? Anyways, I know org-babel well and the more stateful `org-agenda`, roam, etc still give me that deep and mysterious feeling. Exited to check them out someday, and maybe become better and more organized for it c:

Org (and markdown) is not plain text tho, it is a markup language. This fact really showed itself when I started writing more email where there's no fixed format to write things so you come up with things on the fly. It is a bit like writing on a blank, unruled sheet of paper v. writing on a ruled paper. You may write out of lines on a ruled paper but it looks out of place and ugly, and even hard to read sometimes. This is what org is but it is less forgiving of your own format than a ruled paper is, there's no way to change the syntax of predefined things and there's no clean way to add your own thing. This restriction I feel is becoming more and more set in stone, which is understandable but from my POV, I would rather have my blank piece of paper which is actual plain text.

> I haven't checked to see if it accounts for when noweb refs have changed Org does account for noweb references. The changes are checked against hash calculated based on the expanded code block with all the references resolved + the header arguments (including inherited).

I am trying very hard to envision an org-agenda entry that says "Meet Joe today at 12pm at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave" with so-called *captures* for Joe's wikipedia page, the address's geocode, an org-babel snippet that pulls parking restrictions from Open Data DC, and the git commits I made every time "Secret Service" postponed the meeting. I can't. All I see is a brief entry on Google Calendar -- on a device that does not run emacs.

To the extent that I can make sense of that jpeg a week after I scribbled it, I suppose Zettlekasten was the thing that would have made going to my number theory lecture worth it. Yup, Zettlekasten, several hours every week transcribing my handwritten notes into org-mode (when I was already burning the midnight oil to finish my problem sets), and about twenty more IQ points.

Just like people say that Emacs is a mix of Windows Notepad, a monolithic kernel, and the international space station, org-mode is a mix of LaTeX, Excel, and Google Calendar. To give a better description, it's an amazing markup language with spreadsheet support. It allows you to organize and run code blocks. It can make graphs (gnuplot). It can export into static websites, pdf files, presentations, and more. The code blocks can interact with the rest of the document, such as reading lists, tables, or the outputs of the code blocks. The code blocks can be ran on export and their result exported, in any format (a python code block can take a spreadsheet from a bash script which curled it and spit out more org code) or it can be "tangled", that is to say certain code blocks are concatted into a file, which allows you to manage your system and emacs configuration within emacs. You can also export it as a nice book, which has all of the needed code in it. Since text is the primary thing, you put code within text, rather than comments within code. This is called literate programming. As for the calendar functionality, I have not touched it myself. It can pull todo lists, you can put dates and times into documents There's also org-roam, which is one of many org-mode "addons". Org-roam is basically obsidian, if you've ever used that, but with org-mode. Basically, local/personal wiki.

Start taking notes! Start with headers and bullets. Use tables, add links to other files in the table … Slowly you will find new uses. To me it is just an advanced text file.

r/PKMS

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> Are there good resources that can explain the philosophy and applications of org-mode? Try the resources on this page: https://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/index.html You are right in that the definitive Org tutorial still awaits its volunteers.

How does one do the daily agenda thing? Any links for that?

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=be8TC-i-NpE 2. https://blog.jethro.dev/posts/org_mode_workflow_preview/ 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZoQ4EkfDPo

I liked that explanation and it makes a lot of sense!

If it is not for org-mode, I would never have started using emacs, vim has been my weapon of choice for text/code editing! As people say org-mode is the gateway drug to emacs. I work as a software dev. It perfectly suits my workflow which mostly involves version-controlled note-taking and sharing my docs via github to others. org tables is another gem, which helps me to keep track basic inventory of things and prepare financial reports (eg. monthly cashflow reports). Asking org tables to replace excel is too much to ask for, however for my basic needs, this is perfect. org agenda to keep track of deadlines, anniversaries etc. org babel has replaced the need for jupyter notebooks and enables literate development, which is a joy to work with. It also manages my code snippets collection, which is a lifesaver for me, I have written some elisp to fetch and embed these snippets while coding (of course we have yasnippets too)! Org mode also serves as a core enabler in my Personal Knowledge Base. I have tried wikis (dokuwiki, heck even mediawiki), online services (evernote, onenote, notion etc.) and many apps. Out of all of them org-mode is the most convenient and friction-less tool to manage my notes (CRUD + version control + publish in github). Now add eshell and evil to the mix (although not related to org-mode), all these components work together to create enormous value to me everyday!

Fellow PKMSer here. Yeah, it's life-changing. I live in my notes now. I can't imagine going back to forgetting everything all the time. Personally I started with Dendron, then Logseq, then org-roam. edit: now that I think of it, I might have started with Obsidian before I found Dendron.

Interesting. I am a Logseq user and trying our spacemacs. I like the philosophy of emacs and I would like to hear made you migrate from Logseq to org-roam (Emacs) since the creator of Logseq itself is an org mode user.

Not trying to crap on Logseq here, it's a great tool, and helped shape my current system a whole lot. My main issue with Logseq was that it didn't do TODOs 100% the way I wanted, and it ended up "leaving out" (from my PoV) certain items when I needed them most. That's not Logseq's fault, just an oddity of my own needs. Default org-mode does TODOs far worse, IMO, but at least there's the possibility of making it do anything I want now, because it's in Emacs. I also just want to tinker with the way it works all the time. I want specific functionality and Emacs is the perfect tool for that. The only other issue I had with it was that it butchered my file-naming conventions, which is one of the main essential features. I need files in a hierarchy like "res.lore.star-wars.chronological-order". Logseq produced files like "res%Flore%Fstar-wars%Fchronological-order". All this PKM-searching has left me without an operable system for about a year. I'm finally getting it back to working order in Emacs, but it's a slow process. Overall I've enjoyed all the moving around. Using several systems has opened my eyes to new possibilities that would have left my notes unscalable and disorganized otherwise.

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The lack of strikethrough in the standard syntax of markdown makes it unusable in my context (teaching). And while there is a way to deal with this through stylesheets, the difference between italics and bold is more than just emphasis and strong emphasis. In science and maths the difference between italics and bold has a VERY important semantic meaning - and the prospect that a change in CSS changes the mathematical meaning in my lecture notes is just, well, a non-starter. While I'd like to move to Markdown, since it is easier to convince colleagues to move to that instead of org-mode (in particular together with, e.g., Quarto), it is pretty clear that Markdown was not developed with science in mind. It's great for low-key things, but for STEM, org-mode is just a lot more usable.

Yep, very good point. I find myself using markdown only on github and my emails (as plain text). I feel like markdown is more of a style convention rather than an actual markup language due to lack of strict definition (opposed to tex and org). Not to mention, different apps supporting it, implement it differently

Yeah but pushing that when you’re the only one to use it is the challenge ;) But for myself the power of emacs is not the org mode but the buffers. You can use vim as you can buffers are les friendly than emacs and vscode is far from that. What I think is a problem on eMacs is the customization. Each time you want to enable a lsp or something like that is give you a headhache to configure it correctly where vscode is so easy and keep the same speed. If you install 2,3 lsp merged with stuff like company… it came to be so slow…

Doom is trying to provide nice out-of-box experience, including lsp.

I feel exactly like you. But with time I got used to a few features of org-mode (outliner, workflow states, org-babel, a bit of the agenda and tables) and it's cool enough for me not to think about the whole thing. What is at odds with my culture is that org-mode is a very large thing, and doesn't fit the tiny dsl-ish aspect of lisp in general.

Yeah as spacemacs but still, my vim is open in less than one second ;)

Doom is also sub-second using stock settings. See https://old.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/82lwnv/how_doom_emacs_startup_so_fast/

And Doom's stock settings are often good enough and modern enough

> But if you try to imaging your desktop booting to Emacs/EXWM with a generic org-agenda or scratch buffer in org-mode to start, org-roam to access anything like "hit-a-key, type 'sum 22' to see summer 2022 photos", This would have meant at some point you: - org-attach'd the image to a heading somewhere in org-agenda-files - tagged the heading with "summer2022" Right?

use latex or inline html

Dunno why the downvotes, this is a perfectly reasonable viewpoint...

You just need either: - emacs in termux and a bluetooth keyboard - a mobile and touch friendly emacs that makes constructions like the one you gave easy and useful to explore In my free time I have an org-roam node exploring option 2 since I found option 1 inconvenient.

the original author failed to make a strict specification. but there are commonmark and gfm.

Converting to markdown with `:comments both` enabled and using `org-babel-detangle` is workable. However we really need more sophisticated detangling that doesn't require comment links (aka sentinels) like the literate programming editor leo has using the [Mulder/Ream update algorithm](http://leoeditor.com/appendices.html#the-mulder-ream-update-algorithm).

> I don't know that there is a good unique resource. I got into it as a boiling frog. I needed an outlining tool and it works well for that. Then I needed to clock in and out of tasks, it has a solution for that. Then I neededa daily agenda view of my task. Also supported out of the box. Then I needed a PKMS and I am now fully bought in org-roam. While the order is different, this was very much my stepping stones into "All In for Org Mode"

Is that all I "just need"? You won't find another r/emacs follower who has as much free time as I, nor one who has spent as many hours exploring a native android facade for emacs-in-termux. That you blithely propose option 1 as if it threatened practicality, and option 2 as if it were on the horizon, is indicative of a young person's feckless ignorance.

I don't know about resources, but I can share a potentially helpful simplication: It's another format for storing vaguely tree-form data, with a lot of convenience tooling for things its users do a lot. And some agreed-upon conventions for how to navigate (cycling, jumping, linking) and annotate (properties, tags, states) said tree-form data. Knowing what I know now, I'd approach 'learning' org similar to how I approached 'learning' lisp. Your observation about breadth is on mark. I find the focus on time-keeping/to-do/markdown-alternative misleading. But it's otherwise difficult to explain what it /can/ be useful for in its most general sense. It's kind of like trying to explain to someone who's looking for a mop that this unrelated 'indoor plumbing' nonsense is worth their time. Especially if it really /isn't/.

I like the boiling frog analogy other folks have made... TL;DR: Folks are going to say that org-mode is the best thing to happen on planet earth, but you'll want to take that with a grain of salt. It is a great tool out of the box. But if you want to go hacking in it, there are some serious stumbling blocks (this is an opinion forged by experience). Summary of upsides: The built-in functionality mostly works as advertised, and the community is friendly to newcomers in my experience. A bit more in-depth: 1. The tutorial and the Wiki are pretty good for things like the Agenda and the basic syntax. 2. The community is friendly in my experience, though and they are often enthusiastic about helping with simple things and sharing configurations. 3. The syntax of the markup is easy to read, and just makes sense. 4. You can export (right within Emacs) your org files to HTML, LaTeX, Markdown, ... That was massively useful to me---I'm a teacher, and I already keep notes in org-mode about what I cover in lectures. Once the pandemic hit, it was relatively easy to make a website from these notes for the students, despite the fact I had no experience with HTML before that. Summary of drawbacks: mostly just "time spent"... the learning curve is pretty steep, and hacking can be a bit painful. A bit more in-depth: 1. The documentation is sometimes a bit lacking. I recently ran into a situation recently (with HTML export) where some functionality mentioned on the Wiki was replaced within org, but the Wiki was not updated. 2. The source code is massive, which I find a bit daunting. Even though there are ways to add things like custom exporter backends, when the documentation is lacking you really have no choice but to dive into the--ahem--4000 lines of code used to define the HTML export. 3. If you have a question more complicated than "what's the built-in to do this" or "is there a simple way to modify this function to do <thing it basically already does>", then it is unlikely that anyone will be willing to help; it's not because they don't want to, it's just that making simple-seeming additions requires massive effort. 4. (This one's a personal pet peeve, feel free to ignore) I've heard folks call org-mode "a fully fledged spreadsheet" because of some of the things the tables can do... But as far as I can tell, those folks have low expectations for what spreadsheets should do. I once tried to use org tables to keep track of student grades, but I hit a wall pretty quickly with handling references between tables. I did get it working, but it wasn't pretty, and it wasn't worth the time. It's also pretty slow at tables (I had only 80 students, but the built-in functions dealing with tables noticeably lagged, EVEN BEFORE THE REFERENCES WENT IN).

You seem to default to a very bad faith interpretation of others. I said "just need" more out of optimism then some sort of disillusionment that there's not a mountain of work behind option 2. 1 is somewhat practical, as I have used it in practice. Many may find it works well enough for their needs. I personally found it too inconvenient after some weeks. > option 2 as if it were on the horizon, is indicative of a young person's feckless ignorance. You don't even know my age. Why are you so unkind and arrogant by default? I understand your frustration when others excitedly put forth ideas and never even start implementing, but is your response and tone really appropriate?

I’m using org-mode to deploy a static [website](https://parsec.ro/), with the help of ox-hugo, Hugo and Netlify. It uses Python code blocks to generate tables and update variables on deploy. And backup is easy since it’s just a plain text file.

Actually you can use both of them simultaneously, e.g. I do use logseq to take my org-roam on devises with no emacs like phone or tablet. They are able to sync quite well now

"Plain text" in these contexts refers to the end result being stored as a plain `.txt`\-like file, which can be read and edited by any regular text editor or even programs like MS Word. So by this definition Org files are, most certainly, plain text. The opposite would be something like binary formats or intentionally-unreadable formats like some proprietary programs have. Now, this restriction that you speak of is exactly what gives org mode its power and, therefore, is not really seen as a restriction by the community at all - much like how a programming language doesn't really restrict you but empowers you, even though it technically restricts which sequences of characters are valid code and which aren't. In other words, restriction of acceptable representations != restriction of capabilities - at least not necessarily, and certainly not in the case of org mode. The tradeoff here is that, by following the rules that org mode has established and has been implemented around, you gain the ability to use all of its features. Of course if you want absolute freedom you can just use any text editor and a `.txt` file, but then you give up things like: * visualisation for nested headers, bold, italics, underline etc, * automatic adjustment of numbered lists when moving entries around, * usable links to websites or other files, * embedding of images, * embedded and executable code blocks, * toggling show/hide of sections, * automatic table of contents, * 1-click export to HTML, PDF etc, * automatic date & time entries, * automatic tracking, management, visualisation of TODO entries, tasks etc. * searching documents by tag I'll let you decide which tradeoff is more restrictive for you - I've found my answer.

There are quite a few great video series on org roam on YouTube, e.g. by System Crafters. In my opinion, the most important thing you've missing compared to standard org mode is the mindset change of not treating your notes as files on a disk any more. All my org-roam notes are thrown together in the same folder - I never need to open that folder, I don't even need to know or bother about what their filenames are, because I treat them like entries in my "notes database" and only ever interact with them through Emacs. Searching through all my notes (either by their title or by tags), creating new notes, linking notes (with autocomplete that's not polluted by files that are not in my notes, even if they're in the same directory), everything is one key-binding away. Add to that the ability to view backlinks, and suddenly you can unlock some really powerful workflows. For example, I have an empty note simply called "Interesting Idea". Every time I'm writing notes on a book/movie/paper/whatever and I come across an interesting idea, I just add a quick link to that page right there in the middle of the text and then keep writing. Late on, I can open the "Interesting Idea" note and view all the backlinks, which is essentially a list of all the ideas I've come across over time and thought were interesting. I do the same with "Cool Links", "Useful Tools", "Papers to Read", "People to Look Into" etc, you can come up with whatever "notions" you want to link to according to your own interests, needs, use cases etc. - your imagination is the limit.

There's nothing strange about it---say something that is out of the norm and the hive mind will show itself.

>So by this definition Org files are, most certainly, plain text. The opposite would be something like binary formats or intentionally-unreadable formats like some proprietary programs have. I get your point and I alluded to this but I respectfully disagree. Plain text for me means what it says on the tin---_plain_ text. It should be a blank sheet of paper where I come up with my own chaotic format on the fly. >visualisation for nested headers, bold, italics, underline etc, Font lock exists. And I would argue that org markup is actually verbose and horrible. >automatic adjustment of numbered lists when moving entries around, 1-click export to HTML, PDF etc This is one thing I would definitely miss. >usable links to websites or other files, embedding of images, Trivial to implement. >embedded and executable code blocks automatic table of contents, I couldnt care less. >toggling show/hide of sections, outline mode does it better. >automatic date & time entries, automatic tracking, management, visualisation of TODO entries, tasks etc I can never take the agenda seriously. It has a really awful UI sorry. >searching documents by tag Full text search is often easier. Also not that special, just write down #keyword in the file and you're done.

Why use markdown then?

it's simple enough and there's no unnecessary features. if I want more control on typography, I can use latex.

Executable code blocks are a gateway drug to literate programming :-)

>Plain text for me means what it says on the tin---plain text. It should be a blank sheet of paper where I come up with my own chaotic format on the fly. `.org` files are as plain as any others. It's only when loaded up in Emacs with org-mode enabled (i.e. when they're actually treated as org-mode files) that they become anything other than plain, which is precisely the point of having an interpretable format convention in the first place. Whether that format has existed for decades or is something that you came up with in the past 5 seconds doesn't really change the fact that it's a format - a structured information representation system with grammar and syntax etc. >Font lock exists. I we're talking about _plain_ text, then there's no such thing as font lock - it's just text, right? As soon as you add anything on top of good ol' raw ASCII or Unicode characters (such as any kind of metadata about fonts, colour, indentation etc.) then it ceases being plain and is suddenly dependent on 1) a representation format for that metadata, and 2) a program to interpret and apply it to the rendering of the plain text. That's precisely what org mode is, a combination of those two. >And I would argue that org markup is actually verbose and horrible. Obviously a matter of preference, but can you give an example of a markup language that's less verbose and less horrible? I mean, it's not like you can have tons of deviation anyway: You're going to have to use one character or another to indicate block leveling/nesting, and things like underlining or bold need one character (or two, in some markups) in both the beginning and end to mark the range of text to apply them to. I find org's link syntax annoying (as opposed to, say, markdown's `[Link text](linkurl)` format). >Trivial to implement. I don't know about trivial but yes, certainly implementable in programmable editors. You still need a consistent markup if you want your ad-hoc implementation to work across all your notes, though, so in essence you're just implementing a subset of org-mode. >I couldnt care less. OP was asking for people's opinions on the appeal of org mode. If you don't care about such a feature then that's one thing, but claiming that there's no value or appeal in it for others is very different and, arguably, mistaken. >I can never take the agenda seriously. It has a really awful UI sorry. No need to apologise, I don't like it and use it either, mostly because I've come up with my own to-do management system in org-roam. I'm just saying it's there and a lot of people swear by it. >Full text search is often easier. Also not that special, just write down #keyword in the file and you're done. Again, for `#keyword` to work, you need to be consistent with its use over time - it wouldn't be very practical if half your tags were `#keyword` and the others were `@keyword`, for example. This applies to most other features of a note-taking system. So, in essence, you're coming up with your own markup language over time and sticking with it. You can either come up with a "chaotic format on the fly" every time and accept that you sacrifice consistency and practicality (such as searchability, scriptability etc.) for a small amount of (a somewhat insignificant kind of) freedom, or you can come up with a consistent markup system and stick with it over time, implementing your editor's features and scripts by depending on its consistency. If you're claiming that org's markup syntax may not be the best, then I agree with you. If, however, you're claiming that having _any_ consistent markup syntax that's not invented from scratch every time, together with a set of tools and scripts (preferably contributed to by a large and passionate community) that enhance the text's presentation, indexing, processing etc is useless, then I very strongly disagree.

I'll safely say you'd be the *only* person or bot who doesn't construe the org format as "plain text." The contrarians will chime in with "I don't either" but I, being the muddied stick, will insist said contrarians are fake accounts that you created. Yes, all 72 of them. In other news, self-proclaimed emacs expert agrees org-agenda UI cannot be taken seriously.

The question is why markdown over org-mode. The org markup seems to be much better designed than markdown.

I said already for several times. The syntax is simpler. And there's no unneeded feature. Note that the ability to specify italics and bold type faces are unnecessary features.

Uselessness is indubitably the default, which is why the Dale Carnegie's of the world are so richly compensated -- it's one thing to invent the smart phone whose utility is self-evident, it's another thing to shoehorn a solution looking for a problem such as, well, nearly every SaaS or DAO being aggressively hawked today. Org-mode is tough one. Often a product's success has nothing to do with how useful it is, but rather how it makes the consumer *feel*. For knowledge workers without programming know-how, org-mode does offer an ASCII-driven sense of empowerment, much as HTML did in the 1990s.

I think one way to drive this point home is that html has the content type text/html, not text/plain, and so should Org and Markdown have content types text/org and text/markdown instead of text/plain. Just from a pure HTTP header perspective.

Who gets to decide what's an unneeded feature? You? Markdown is now widely used, but the syntax is inconsistent between implementations and it does not have any features that allow scientific writing. I know that it's not been designed for that, and for the simple documentation tasks it's designed for, it's great. But for anything else the extensions needed make it inconsistent. Even for that application, the most commonly used flavour (GitHub) is widely extended. Vanilla markdown does not even allow equations (on that front, there's some consistency), or citations (less consistent between frameworks).

Of course I decide what features I need! What's wrong with you?

While feature-shows like [https://karl-voit.at/orgmode/](https://karl-voit.at/orgmode/) might intimidate or overwhelm you, pages like [https://karl-voit.at/2020/01/20/start-using-orgmode/](https://karl-voit.at/2020/01/20/start-using-orgmode/) do give some guideline how to start with Org-mode and not be overwhelmed. Furthermore, this is about using Org-mode in the right way: [https://karl-voit.at/2021/08/30/the-org-mode-way/](https://karl-voit.at/2021/08/30/the-org-mode-way/) In case you need some inspiration on how I'm using Org-mode to manage myself, you might want to skim through [https://karl-voit.at/2019/09/25/using-orgmode/](https://karl-voit.at/2019/09/25/using-orgmode/) HTH

Yeah possible, I didn’t like it a lot when I tried but I don’t like eMacs experience on osx to start so…

Is it working in case like revealjs on org mode?

Try picking something from org-mode's capabilities, like org-babel or tables, and use it. Build some understanding and experience, then you might see a fit.

Not necessarily: org-roam by default index any heading with an id, ignoring org-agenda, `org-roam-node-find` run a classic search&narrow UI matching heading text and eventual tags (what to match can be tweaked, for instance to add some in-drawer properties) so it's more a matter of how you structure your notes in headings/subheadings terms. Yasnippet or something equivalent evaluating small sexps can complete the "semantic index construction" adding various metadata to any new heading (property in a drawer like :date:, :isoweek:, ...) and org-ql can match them to form various views from notes. For instance I have a template for books notes, and org-ql queries to find in any book note other noted books from the same author/publisher/series, planning but totally not implemented to add wikidata queries to going beyond my notes. For contracts similarly I have queries to mach "active contracts", various kind of contracts like "insurance", "phone & data", "related to cars", ... not much flexible not easy to tweak but still better than nothing or pure full-text search... I have no universal recipe, just implementing a template case by case following discovered needs like "hey the first year with this system, taxes times, what I can automate at best?". Org-agenda so far for me is just a timeline and a quick use remainders. Org-mode, org-roam managed notes are my apps and UI or the thin layer that makes information accessible and automation possible inside "documents".

Yep, that's is. The unfortunate part is that modern software is explicitly built do being hard to integrate (think just about Reddit vs classic usenet) especially hard to have "locally" even in mirrored forms, many things have to be done by hands because no one have done that enough to automate for all, like mails: fetchmail + maildrop do the mirroring business from my IMAPs, notmuch with ol-notmuch and a set of notes complete the game BUT is awful to be crafted since it's a homegrown solution probably various people have done is slightly different ways but no one so far have reached a generic automation to offer a simple package "just type the list of your IMAPs, local maildir root, filter rules, tagging rules and anything will run automagically"... However if you have enough time and patience it pay back really well IME. Far more than wasting time in web crapplications (self-made/self-hosted included) since they can't be integrated and to reach a good "internal integration" and feature set... You have to re-implement much of the whole Emacs itself... People have completely lost the concept of desktop computing unfortunately so we evolve in bad directions wasting countless resources for limited and limiting outcomes.

Asking, "What are the applications of org-mode?" is somewhat like asking, "What are the applications of Emacs?" or, "What are the applications of a computer?" Do you use every feature of Emacs? Of course not. Do you use all of the computing power your PC has to offer? Of course not. But would you, then, dispose of them and use a legal pad and a desk calculator instead? Of course not. Like Emacs for non-Emacers, or computers for non-computer users, Org can seem daunting at first. But there's no need to be overwhelmed. Just start using it, and use more features as they become useful to you. Most people have to-do lists in various forms, and Org is ideal for that. So make a simple to-do list: * TODO Call Bob * TODO Take out the trash Now add a few notes to make the list more useful: * TODO Call Bob His number is 555-1212. * TODO Take out the trash It's picked up on Tuesdays now. Now imagine you've got 50 items, and you're not sure what needs to be done when. No problem, just add some timestamps: * TODO Call Bob DEADLINE: <2022-09-20 Tue> His number is 555-1212. He's leaving for vacation on the 21st. * TODO Take out the trash DEADLINE: <2022-09-20 Tue +1w> It's picked up on Tuesdays now. Now you can use the Org Agenda (and/or `org-ql`) to present a list of items that you need to do in a certain timeframe, and/or ones that are upcoming or past-due. Now you find a PDF of an invoice you need to mention to Bob when you call him. No problem, just attach it to the to-do item using `org-attach`, so it's available right there with the to-do item when you call him. Now Bob is a client, and you need to track how long your phone call with him lasts, so when you dial him on Tuesday, `org-clock-in` to that to-do item, and `org-clock-out` of it when you're done. Now you know how long the call lasted, and you can bill him for that later. Those are just a few examples. Org has wide application, just like Emacs and computers do. The best part is that it's all implemented in the Emacs Lisp machine, so it's fully extensible by you, the user. It's all in your control.

If it weren't patently clear, this reply originates from someone who's never had a paying client. At least half, if not more, of your customer calls occur in-transit when emacs is unavailable. Why half? Because entrepreneurs who spend more than half their time at their desktop are losing money. One need only look at the intellectual divide between Jack Ma, and say your dumbest uncle to deduce that earning power has nothing to do with one's tools. If your dumbest uncle happens to be Mark Cuban, well, if there's any data point that illustrates the enigmatic "exception that proves the rule," your uncle's case would be that.

> the way it treats recurring/repeating to-dos I've never used it this way, how does this work?

There's no way I'll explain it better than the [manual page](https://orgmode.org/manual/Repeated-tasks.html) does, but you can choose from 3 kinds of recurrence: - Create a new recurrence for a specific day, month, year, whatever, regardless of the completion status of the existing recurrence - create a new recurrence as above, but only ever have 1 recurrence active at once - Create a new recurrence based on a specific interval of time after completion of the current recurrence

Who's the self-proclaimed emacs expert?

Besides this whole org-mode as a calendar, etc. thing, the other benefit is that since org-mode is so central to emacs, it is extremely well supported. Things like aligning tables just work out of the box so you don't need to preview as often. And some packages like cdlatex will natively support org-mode, which is really nice for taking math notes.

I have to hand it to you, you never miss a chance to live up to your name. ;) Anyway, believe it or not, there are, in fact, people who sometimes use Org to track billable hours, and some of them might even be the legendary *entrepreneur*.

For me Orgmode is a personal productivity system. I'm using it for many many years now and in 2010, when my wife was diagnosed with cancer and I suddenly got an extra workload of housework, taking care of kids and everything, it literally helped me to survive. I made a playlist of tutorials on YouTube in 2016 and then re-recorded that in 2020 to be a course on Udemy. I have some [coupon codes left](https://www.udemy.com/course/getting-yourself-organized-with-org-mode/?couponCode=5662420914B8B2DA40C3) so that you can access the course for free if you want. Coupon will expire in around 2 weeks. Have fun with it.

\> started with Dendron, then Logseq, then org-roam So you have been doing this for a short time and briefly using each of those tools. How can you tell it's life-changing?

Because it has quite literally changed my life. I no longer forget about projects; they're all right in one place. I don't forget household chores or vehicle maintenance and stuff like that anymore. I'm learning to program faster than ever because my code is right there in the knowledgebase, with the documentation being just another few notes. I read my email more because they're integrated right there with everything else. I've completely changed my reading habits because taking the kind of notes I take has helped me retain more of what I read. Projects I've thought about doing for years are finally coming to fruition because documenting them makes me want to do them more, and progress isn't lost when I inevitably get distracted. Things feel more *worth it* now because I don't feel like I'm going to lose everything. It's a central repository for knowledge, a second-brain. It's not just notes, I've also come up with a (WIP) taxonomy for notes that I think can handle almost anything I want to put in it. The taxonomy is one of the things I'm most proud of, so here it is: - `archive` - contains old copies of everything below - `cal` - calendar - `class` - classes, tutorial series, etc. - `cook` - my cookbook - `log` - sequential logs - `log.daily` - my daily log - `log.labor` - labor logs for paid jobs - `log.maint` - maintenance logs - `proc` - procedures - `proc.emerg` - emergency procedures, printed copies in a binder for... emergencies - `proc.sys` - procedures for my computer systems - `proc.task` - "how to" guides for all sorts of tasks - `proj` - projects - `proj.mmacs` - MMacs, my Emacs config - `proj.woodheart` - my worldbuilding project - `res` - research; my own little Wikipedia - `res.art` - art, dance, theater - `res.con` - concepts - `res.date` - events by date (res.date.yyyy.mm.dd) - `res.event` - named events - `res.film` - film, movies, series, animation, etc. - `res.game` - games, not just the video kind - `res.grp` - groups of people, states, companies, movements, etc. - `res.lang` - languages (natural, programming, etc.) - `res.lit` - literature (`res.lit.[author].[title]`). - `res.loc` - locations - `res.lore` - lore - `res.lore.sw.chron` - chronological order of all Star Wars Media. - `res.music` - music (`res.music.[artist].[piece]`) - `res.ppl` - people - `res.prod` - products (`res.prod.[mfg].[product]`) - `res.spec` - species (e.g. `res.spec.homo.sapiens`) - `res.soft` - software - `res.std` - standards (e.g. `res.std.iso.8601`) - `res.sub` - substances (e.g. `res.sub.thc`) - `res.tech` - technologies (e.g. `res.tech.wheel`) - `self` - about me - `self.contact` - contact info - `self.health` - notes for my doctor - `self.resume` - my resume - `shop` - shopping lists - `sys` - documentation about my computer systems - `todo` - task management The kicker is that I store more than just notes in that taxonomy. Images, videos, PDFs, etc. are stored using the same naming scheme, so I can find *literally* whatever I want. I'm not a big fan of the "just name it whatever" / non-hierarchical systems. I lose things too easily for that. This strict hierarchy is what makes it so productive for me. On the topic of only using each tool for a short time, it's been a clear evolution for me. Dendron was almost perfect, the only real issue was I wanted to tinker with functionality more than VS Code will allow. Logseq seemed closer to what I wanted, but it wasn't, and I still couldn't mess with it the way I wanted. Emacs + org-roam solved that issue completely. I have no plans on ever moving again, until I develop my own completely from scratch using a graph database.

Good bot

Ok, thank you for taking the time to elaborate your answer, I'm still skeptical of such focus on tools and what at first may seem quick & easy yet huge gains, but then ends up being a complex mechanism of procrastination, but I'm going to think about what you said.

It definitely has the potential for procrastination. There are days I simply don't feel like opening it. I guess it's like building any other habit. Focusing on specific tools is something I'm trying to get away from. I want a set of files I can keep around the rest of my life, assuming I handle backups responsibly. I print out the notes I want to keep forever, and the system works on paper so I could always switch to a paper version, though I'd probably have to think of a new task management system for paper. Here are some measures I've taken to make myself procrastinate less: - Emacs opens when I login. I never close it unless I'm shutting down for the night. - I keep my agenda open at all times. Currently it's just my TODO file, but I'm working on getting org-agenda going. - I give myself a lot of slack on daily logs. Sometimes the daily logs make it feel like a job. - I let broad-topic notes grow until I can't take it anymore, instead of making thousands of tiny notes. One good thing about keeping notes like this is that procrastination doesn't have as much of an effect. It's still bad, but I don't completely lose my train of thought anymore. Everything I've done is documented. I can wait a month and open a project file and see exactly what I did last, what tasks I need to work on, etc. Having all my projects and main tasks in one file means I have to look at everything occasionally, so I'm less likely to forget them in the first place. It's not for everyone. It requires constant usage, for sure. But for people who work on their computer a lot like students or developers could definitely benefit from some kind of PKM system. Being able to recall all your information with a few keystrokes is handy.

Thank you again for taking the time to describe your process in detail, I feel more inclined to take you seriously since it's likely that you're actually doing what you say you do. I've used Emacs for many years in the past, mostly as a programmer. org-mode always looked good on paper to me, but each time I actually started using it (and there were many) 70% of my time was dedicated to fine tune it and report small bugs and quirks. I know that this is in part a personal attitude, and there is just me to blame, but to the extent that org-mode is a sort of meta-tool, so malleable that sometimes it seems as if it is nothing per se, it has the potential to trigger such perfectionist behavior and it actually does on many people, at least according to what I often read here. I kind of like the roam approach of writing small hierarchical blocks in your journal and tagging them with wikilinks. To be sure, I don't think any "structure emerges" this way, as it is sometimes said, the only way I know to maybe, just maybe, make said structure emerge is to think long and hard about a limited set of information. But it does seem to simplify some mundane tasks without asking too much from me. In this regard I find Logseq more than enough, while org-roam shows me a timestamp, a slug, a title and a drawer with an id for a simple note... All this can be modified but that woud miss the point. I'm not actually using Logseq, anyway, just toying with it a bit and considering whether it's worth a change in habits. That said, of course I believe tools matter, in many areas tools have been decisive for the socioeconomic and cultural advancement of humanity. But I also think our brain is still many orders of magnitude above any PKM tool now on sale, a dime a dozen, as "second brains" that will bring you superpowers by augmenting your biological brain. I find most discussed matters about these systems to be somewhat interesting but ultimately bikeshedding.

Org mode to me is the best note taking format. When it comes to formatting complexity it's something like: plain < markdown < org < tex. With emacs keybindings I'm able to format my notes much quicker than a traditional markdown editor, including ones that support extended markdown. Tex is just too much of an hassle when trying to take notes during a lecture or video IMO.

looks amazing. Would be awesome to see some video demo of that system in action ;)

Yes for Org-mode. I didn’t really use the agenda. Not so much for org-roam: I hate having things in thousands of small files; I prefer to have everything in one large file that I can search directly. Just my 2 cents

Yes indeed for backlinks : I never found that earth shattering because of the time upfront that you need to manage this stuff. I’d rather just do a search after the fact, if I really need to find sthg Or use something as stupid as occurlist() that lets you search multiple words that appear on the same line in any order (user doesn’t have to come up with a regexp, but rather just enters words…) https://emacs.stackexchange.com/questions/32023/searching-for-multiple-items-with-occur