Yet another RSI thread

Everyone's different. I would like to get a take from the community on my situation here. I'm approaching middle age and have always tried to use ergonomic tools & techniques and yet I am developing RSI. My right hand is particularly bad. I have an appointment with my doctor to have a chat about it, but I am pretty sure that contorting my thumbs/hands in general to hit the meta/ctrl/shift keys have not helped me. I have enjoyed some modal editing in my journey. My current favorite packages for that are Meow & god-mode. I honestly have not decided which I like better but both "de-chord" my commands. Meow does this with a "keypad" mode that is for all intents and purposes a leader key. This adds 1 additional key press in exchange for no modifiers. Meow has better text navigation, overall god-mode reduces key-presses much more dramatically. I am also considering learning/training myself to use both hands at all times and avoid pressing 2 keys with one hand at any given time. This only gets dicey with 3 key chords (like C-M-/M-S-/C-S/-). I'm trying to get a sense of which is the best course of action here. Heck, maybe I should do both? *EDIT:* You all have been amazing. Thank you so much for the advice! If I did not manage to respond to you please know that I am grateful

This is tough; I'm sorry to hear about your situation. Different things work for different people, but the lag between making a change and seeing the effect (or not) makes it difficult terrain for experimentation. For me, switching to a split ortholinear ergonomic keyboard was a game-changer, both for my overall efficiency and reducing wrist pain. I've been using an Ergodox since around 2015, and like it a lot. On the Ergodox in particular, it has two 1.5u keycaps on the inner edges of both halves. I made the top one Control and the bottom Meta, and having the common modifiers on both halves means that I can comfortably use one hand to modify and the other to enter the key sequence, or even swap which hand does what mid-sequence — for example `C-x * c` is right hand control, left hand x, left hand shift, right hand 8, left hand c; `C-c ^ a` works similarly. Having all modifiers on both halves and the commonly used ones next to home row and using my index finger to hit, that makes a big difference. There are more split ortho options now than ever before. My keyboard is built from a kit, but you can get an Ergodox EZ preassembled, or go with the newer ZSA Moonlander. I particularly like the Moonlander's tilt/tent setup, which gives you some good options for positioning. If you're using the traditional Emacs bindings, you want something around 80% size (Ergodox is 83-key, so it's right in that range). 60% boards seem to work for a lot of people (especially those doing modal editing), but I've found them challenging, because the limited number of keys means you have to use layers to get at all the stuff you need. If you're having wrist pain, the last thing you want to do is add *more* keystrokes to accomplish the same things. YMMV, and I know some folks have a hard time adapting. It definitely takes some getting used to, I'd say it was 2-3 weeks until I was comfortable enough to touch-type at my old speed. You'll also find that once you're comfortable with the split board, regular keyboards are difficult to use, because you're reaching for the keys where they are on the split board. Took another few weeks to get used to the laptop keyboard again. I've now been doing this long enough that I can switch back and forth without thinking about it. Good luck with your treatment, and I hope you're on your way to recovery soon.

As an emacs user for the past 14 years and as a person who have gone through a really rough period of daily pain, even so bad that I at 25 years old wanted to quit everything and not work anymore. I must say, there's probably more that you can do than you expect. I have my notes here: https://elis.nu/blog/2020/08/my-battle-with-wrist-pains/

I have a microsoft ergo keyboard but it definitely is not cutting it. I think if I contort my hands/wrists too much it doesn't matter what I type or chord on. I have the parts list for a Corne V3. I can see how having a much better thumb position would be really handy...but the Corne is pretty small. I will take another look at the Ergodox. This could be the sign that I need to turn my blinders on for the price tag.

personally, I've found that using a spacemacs inspired setup had worked the best. no chords, just space, key, key. it makes ergonomics simple and RSI free due to complete lack of hand contortion. i used to wear a wrist brace due to other CUI-based editors, but since switching, I've only had to use it rarely, and then it was because I was playing too many PC games with poor ergonomics 😅

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Consider different switches too. Browns, blues, and apparently even red switches hurt my hands after long periods. I got much softer linear switches called banana splits that alleviated all of my finger pain issues. I messed up my sofle split build and ordered a normal mech for now. No finger pain because I hotswapped the banana splits in, and it works wonderfully still. Try out different switches if it doesn't work out. Long term, you'll figure out what you want. Just be sure to get your boards with hotswap.

You have got to try out voiced programming. And in general voice input for text. You shouldn't use the keyboard at all outside of coding. You should also strongly consider using an eye tracker to replace the mouse but using a vertical mouse (bonus: with a trackball) already goes a long way. The key technology in vogue for this nowadays is [Talon Voice](https://talon.wiki/unofficial_talon_docs/). You are kind of going to have to cobble together a config that works for you on your own but it's worth the investment. Some demos and references: + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SkdfdXWYaI + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKuRkGkf5HU + https://handsfreecoding.org/2021/12/12/talon-in-depth-review/ + https://whalequench.club/blog/2019/09/03/learning-to-speak-code.html + https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/kwb9yg/have_you_ever_used_speech_recognition_software_to/ + http://xahlee.info/emacs/emacs/using_voice_to_code.html + https://blog.vivekhaldar.com/post/2126488524/use-accessibility-technologies-before-you-have-to

The sticker shock is very real, but I'm of the mind that any tool you use for hours every single day should be the best you can afford. Even if you spend $350 on a keyboard — that's less than $1/day amortized over a year, and you'll be using it for many years to come. I say your well-being is worth way more than that.

I have RSI and used the Microsoft ergo for a while but it tired my fingers after a few hours. I replaced it with a Kinesis advantage 2 quiet lf: https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2-lfq/ I chose that one because of low actuation force and I can work 6-8 hours many days now.

You raise an excellent point, lighter weight switches are a definite help. My favorites in the MX footprint are the Kailh BOX line. Whites are light (60g) clicky switches, and Burnt Orange the non-clicky tactile version of those. Dampening rings may also be helpful, as they reduce key travel and give you a softer landing. Unfortunately, they don't work with the Kailh BOX stem, but are a good option for Gaterons or other MX footprint switches. Linear may also be worth exploring, though personally, I find tactility essential for typing accuracy.

Ah! [picks up mouse] "Computer?"

Aren't bananasplits heavier than cherry mx reds? Both red and browns should be around the same too, though you have the very small bump on the browns. The lightest I have ever touched was Gateron Clears, which bottom out at 50g and actuates at 35g. Very easy to missclick though. Lighter membrane boards can also be really light (and tactile at the same time), like Topres and clones, but I don't know how available they are in ergo layouts.

Do you mind sharing your keybindings for the ergodox? Would be interesting to see your arrangement

Regardless, switches can be swapped out or mixed. Maybe your thumbs could use a different type than the rest of your fingers. Just get hotswap! :D

I will highly recommend the kinesis over the ergodox. To me it’s curved key layout and resting hand position are much better than the ergodox. Here’s a video describing what I mean https://youtu.be/pyhYkA3nPys

Just a quick obersvation : do you have an odd layout ? Because usually the left hand gets messed up before the right one : all the odd combos with C-M-and friends occur on the left hand. RSI on the right hand is more commonly due to mouse usage, for which a vertical mouse helps a lot and costs 15 bucks on amazon. here is what helped me: - vertical mouse for non emacs work - using a low profile membrane keyboard (like the ones in laptops) : no effort to press, no traveling distance - banning single hand chords in emacs : if i need to press ctrl or meta, the key press must be on the right hand - reducing my typing speed - lowering my keyboard, and reclining it backwards (bought a humanscale keyboard tray, price is steep at 300 but it helps on so many levels. Desks are wayy too high for typing nowadays, your arms rest on a weird angle all day. Keyboard tray is the way to go

You're correct. Banana splits are 62g while reds are around 45g. I can't find the word for it, but the banana splits feel *softer*. Water is less dense than pudding, but pudding feels soft, if that makes sense. While it's heavier, the impact is smoother and softer, especially if they're lubed correctly. I think DSA keycaps also aid in the softening the impact. It might also have something to do with vibrations as well. I had a Das board with browns and it hurt my fingers like crazy because of how metallic it felt. I aim for pudding now.

IIRC bananasplits are factory lubed, the smoothness from that might be what you feel as it being softer (or maybe you lubed them yourself), while cherry switches are known to be slightly scratchy even though the spring is relatively light. It could also be the different stem/housing material. Maybe your keyboard also has more "flex", as in the plate/PCB give in a little to pressure through e.g. bending or a gasket mount keyboard. If you want another softening point you could try silent switches as well, they have a little rubber pad dampening the bottom out/top to make a softer sound, but it also makes it a bit softer on the press itself (though too mushy for my liking). Personally I like cherry profile more than DSA as I feel like I have to stretch my fingers more to reach the top rows properly. Still very useable, but cherry is a step up imo. If your other experiences are OEM (which I assume Das use) or even other taller profiles like SA I can see where you're coming from though.

I've tried a lot of different keyboards, Das, corsair, keychron, and a diy Sofle build (diy lube too). Das and Corsair both had browns and aluminum frame, but the Das just hurt. Not sure what it is was though. Sofle + banana splits have been the best combo so far with the keychron with bananas in second place. It might be the smoothness that I'm aiming for. Perhaps adding a film in the switch would help even more. I'd be interested to try out a taller profile with divots if there were any. A lot of dsa keycaps have soft feeling finger tip divots, which might help with the smoothness too.

Filming in my experience doesn't do much for key feel, just makes them nicer sounding (less rattle/return noises or cleaner sound). If you have seen SA keycaps they are very rounded (but very tall). From the side it almost looked like you shaved a pattern into the keys with a ball, and then rounded them out on each layer with another smaller one. I'm not a big fan because I have to lift my hands so much to type comfortably, but you could look at them + maybe wristwrests or something to lift your wrists a little more. Cherry is similar in shape to OEM (which you DAS and Corsair probably both have), but much lower. SA I think would feel really nice for me if they weren't so tall though, as they feel great for short amounts of times, but I get a little tired after a while.

I am a vim user who is currently switching to emacs. But evil mode of course. Do you use it? If not, you should consider it. When I saw, how stupid the emacs navigation is, I couldn’t believe people use it over vim keys. It will not make everything better, but you will have less combined keystrokes, which is definitely better.

I have mentioned this once on an RSI thread and I will mention it again thinking it might be of some help. When it comes to RSI especially that of the right-hand the pinky is responsible for pressing too many keys. On my laptop there are about 13 keys that I press with my right pinky to press. Some of them like Enter, Shift, Backspace, RCtrl, semicolon, forward-slash, back-slash, angle brackets (curly braces on shift) and Del are very frequent especially if you are programming. So some tricks I found were the following. 1. C-m for enter in Emacs and terminals 2. Define secondary layer and additional modifiers for your keys using kmonand(or any other key-mapping tool) so that some of the aforementioned keys can be pressed with stronger fingers. 3. Switch alt and Ctrl keys 4. Switch Esc and Caps-lock so that I could use escape as meta because it is interpreted as meta on terminal and Emacs apps (eg. M-x is equivalent to Esc-x) 5. Using a modal mode of your choice (one that supports comparability would be good. 6. having a left handed motion key alternatives (while keeping the right handed ones) so that I can use either hand when moving so it balances out my most frequent key presses which is moving the cursor in various directions.

Use both Control keys. Use the one that is on the opposite half of the regular key you are pressing.

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You can check previous thread on RSI, https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/vw9uq5/emacs_pinky_after_the_damage_has_been_done/ You can also see my article http://blog.binchen.org/posts/how-to-be-extremely-efficient-in-emacs.html on how to optimize key bindings.

Trying a split keyboard such as the [moonlander](https://www.zsa.io/moonlander) might be worth it.

Spacemacs or doom are great for getting away from chorded key bindings. I switched to evil-mode maybe 3 years ago. It’s been good. I still use a few chorded key bindings that I haven’t bothered trying to learn.

\+1 to the recommendations of an orthonormal like Ergodox (but I also have one of the MS ergonomic keyboards, and will admit there are similar benefits) The bigger benefit is their programmability (program the keyboard once on any computer and its config is persistent across computers (super handy if you're using a KVM switch) Programmable mechanicals in general give the option to move your modifier keys around, and I think this could be a big help. I (new to emacs, but turning 40 this year) find the biggest sources of pain/strain are 1. Bending my pinky down to reach Ctrl, which usually involves pivoting my wrist. 2. Crossing fingers (thumb or pinky going under and within the span of my other digits) Typically Ctrl-Meta-whatever. The first suggestion (credit goes to David Wilson from System Crafters): \- Remap Ctrl onto your caps lock key (or whatever the leftmost key on your keyboard's home row is), maybe even swap them. The second is something I've done on my Ergodox. \- Remap (left) Meta to be somewhere right of the F key and accessible to the thumb. The first one is pretty much the minimum distance possible for your pinky to travel to type Ctrl. The second one makes it so that when you do <ctrl><meta>, you're only slightly increasing the span of your fingers, and barely pivoting your wrist. It also makes meta accessible without bringing your pinky or thumb within the span of your middle digits. I agree, the no-remap option of modifying behavior (if you can do Ctrl on one hand and Meta on the other for 3-key chords, and just stick to one hand per key on the 2-key chords) would be another way. The last one is something I've noticed in trying to improve my typing speed: Keep your wrists off the inappropriately named wrist-rest. It's a fine place to hang out between entries, but when your fingers are actively moving, but I (big hands) find my wrists are happier at the end of the day when they stay in as straight a position as possible, and lifting my palms off the wrist-rest facilitates this.

Hey I went from a regular keyboard to a split ergo that had 74 keys. Almost immediately I realized that was too many keys for me and moved to the corne. I ended up taking off the outer pinky row and removing a thumb button too! So I am down to 3x5 with two thumb keys on each hand. I’m not using emacs as my IDE but I use it for all my task management and I do use vim keybinds for programming. After I got used to my layout change it has been really pleasant, even with only 34 keys total. The key to make this work is home row mod tap. On my left hand, when I tap home row keys it is normal ASDF. But if I hold them, instead it will be the modifier keys. I personally use the order ctrl, cmd, opt, shift. This is mirrored for my right hand. This means all chording key combos that use modifiers are a matter of picking which modifiers I want and pressing those fingers down on the home row. If I need a combo that includes a home row key, I just press the mods with the opposite hand so that I have access to the key I need. Then we use the mod tap feature on thumbs too. So left thumbs are esc, space and right thumbs are backspace, enter. But then if I hold them it activates layers instead. I have a numbers layer where the numbers are in a numpad format, which is really nice to use as opposed to the traditional number row. My symbols layer has some nice changes, like putting opening and closing curly braces, parentheses, and brackets right next to each other (comma, period, i, o, k, L respectively). The key base I used for all of this is called the miryoku layout. Give it a Google and check it out. I still use qwerty as my base alphas layer. You should check out the corne kit from little keyboards. It is $30 shipped for all parts needed except for switches and keycaps. You can get keycaps and switches for about $30 each so that brings the total to $90ish all in, assuming you have a soldering iron. You can get a cheap iron on Amazon for $20 if necessary. I will say the little keyboards kit doesn’t come with a top plate or case. You can just stick adhesive rubber feet on the bottom of the PCB and solder switches directly to the PCB instead of using the provided hot swap sockets and then you won’t need a case or top plate at all. Come join us over at /r/ErgoMechKeyboards for more info. It’s a great community.

I had similar problems, although mostly with pinkies. That's when I started using a [Kinesis Advantage](https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage2-keyboard/), I now own two. One thing I appreciate compared to other split keyboards, is the number of thumb keys. I have all modifiers on thumbs, as well as Enter. It made all the changes I needed, forced me to learn touch typing (a good thing). It's been over a decade, best decision.

I switched from two Microsoft ergos to the Logi K8xx (can’t remember exact model). I *love* this keyboard and use it with doom eMacs in the vim style and map caps lock to control.

I have the K860, we may have the same keyboard :) CAPS for me is most often a modal key or an ESC for toggling meta with. I bet having it set to CTRL makes commands like CTRL-W a lot nicer

*squints* Hellloooooo Computer!

That sounds right. It’s about a year old. I use a `Cntl-[` chord for `ESC` and I’ve also bound `jk` to it as well

If you use both hands and understand the mnemonics of Emacs keybinds, they end up being way less insane :) I too came from Vim and when I ever end up in Vim, it is like riding a bicycle. However the amount of plugging and adapting it took for me to make Evil uniform everywhere I went in Emacs felt irritating for me. This is why Meow is one of my candidates for modal editing.

Also, my RSI / carpal tunnel got a lot better as I switched to vim keybindings and a nice leader key setup. It cut down on the chords immensely.

Yeah that's the weird thing. I have actively avoided the mouse for years well in advance of having any real concerns about RSI. I suspect that my problem might be poor form and compressing my ulnar (sp?) nerve. On my left if I contort my thumb for C-M- or S-s (Shift-super) my thumb starts hurting. This is why balance is an idea for me. Already got the vertical mouse, it's comfy. I'll see what I can do with the other feedback. I bet I can re-position my keyboard

Yeah I am giving this a solid go. Along with all the modifiers. The "no more than one key per hand" rule feels challenging after years of sloppiness.

On macOS, I mapped Command to Control in emacs so I could push it with my thumbs. Have not found a good alternative for windows and Linux.

I really liked the Logitech k860 but the numpad on the right made for awkward mouse placement. If it came in a tenkey-less format it would be my perfect keyboard.

That’s its major downfall. I would also buy a 10-keyless version in a heartbeat. I had the sculpt before it but that thing was a POS compared to the K860.

microsoft ergo, is sadly not actually "ergo". It's mostly just marketing. * the keys aren't ortholinear * it doesn't accomodate for the fact that the fingers in the middle of your hand are longer than the ones at the edges * i believe it tilts the keyboard up at the back rather than up at the front. Ergodox would be a great improvement. Personally I'd advocate for the [Kinesis Advantage 2](https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/) if you need to get something _now_. That being said, the [Advantage 360](https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage360/) is expected to be shipping this fall and is a nice upgrade. They've been showing pictures of production models recently, so they're close. I prefer the Kinesis over most of the ergo keyboards because of the "wells" for your fingers which account for length differences. They're very nice. To /u/Hi_ItsPaul 's point, whatever keyboard you switch to, it's worth buying a "key switch tester" first with samples of whatever switches that keyboard offers. They're a grid of key switches that you can poke and get a feel for the difference between "reds" "greens" etc. [example here](https://amzn.to/3QDvFF5) I'd like to propose a non-standard ergo change though. Switch to Dvorak (or Colemak). When I switched to Dvorak i was _really_ surprised at how much of a difference it made to have my strokes more frequently alternating between hands. Yes, some key combos are worse with Dvorak (copy and paste becomes a two handed operation), but you adapt quickly. Switching cold-turkey from Querty & a straight keyboard to Dvorak + Kinesis Advantage was 2 weeks of brutally slow typing but then I rapidly got back to my ~100 wpm speed. And of course, switching to an ergo mouse helps to. I'm a big fan of the [logitech MX Ergo thumb trackball](https://amzn.to/3bSEJay) I haven't found anything that lets me mouse with less physical movement. I'd note that it's terrible for twitchy shooter games if you're into that kinda thing.

In emacs you can do anything, including code with your voice https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8SkdfdXWYaI

You can flip your keyboard upside-down and side-ways with xmodmap.

„˙dɐɯpoɯx ɥʇıʍ sʎɐʍ-ǝpıs puɐ uʍop-ǝpısdn pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɹnoʎ dılɟ uɐɔ no⅄„

So, I had RSI when I was 25/26 and am now 33 without anymore pain. I’ll tell you what I did to resolve things. 1 - spent entirely too much money on keyboards to find the correct setup. Kinesis Advantage, custom splits, …. Moonlander ZSA has become my happy place. You need something that fits your anatomy so that you arms can be inline with the shoulders. If you have to angle your arms in to have your fingers on the home row, you really have to answer if you’re naturally more comfortable with my forearms and angled in? If not, you really never should be in that position. I’d you do prefer to have the forearms angled in instead of inline with your shoulders, you have to make sure that both halves of your keyboard are “inline” with the angle of your forearms.. so you don’t have to tweak your wrist AT ALL. This is the most important thing.. you are irritating your tendons/muscles/etc, and if you don’t stop, you’ll never heal. 2 - ergonomic desk setup. Buy a standing desk; doesn’t have to be expensive, it can be a manual adjust. They’re definitely the best thing in ergonomics as far as desk adjustment goes IMO because you can set the height exactly to where you need it… feet flat on the floor, sitting upright, arms relaxed, elbows at 90 degrees, etc. if you don’t already add monitor arms to the setup as well so that your neck position is correct. 3- You have to find stretches that work for you, and you HAVE to be dedicated to stretching. It won’t get better immediately. I am in no way related to this site, but this is the program I purchased and used to relieve my symptoms.. I can’t recommend it enough: https://www.selfcare4rsi.com 4- Swap caps and ctrl keys on your keyboard layout. Big big changes after doing this one. Edit: 5- find an app on your computer to remind you to take brakes during the initial healing stint. Stretchly is good for mac, but any sort of pomodoro timer should do. Sorry for phone formatting, hope this helps.

Also Autohotkeys, but you can't enable it just for Emacs

For myself the game changer was a split keyboard with thumb clusters. My particular keyboard is the dactyl manuform. It has several thumb clusters and my setup is for ctrl to be on the edges (i palm press) and my thumb clusters are alt, super and hyper (rebound App key). This gives me two extra "single" modifier keys to utilize. On top of that I've always naturally used the palm/heel of my hand to hit control so that has saved me pinky specific issues. Also, definitely get used to using your modifiers on the opposite hand of the key you're activating. Modals can probably but I personally do not like modal editing. Either way find what works for you. At the end of the day Emacs massive amount of customization should enable you to build a solution that works for your personal pain points. Best of luck!

Sure! Here's the QMK keymap: https://github.com/ieure/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/preonic/keymaps/ime/keymap.c And this project does Xorg/XKB-level remapping, to enable the compose key and hyper modifier: https://codeberg.org/ieure/xkbsucks The actual Emacs bindings I use are the standard ones, with a few convenience tweaks, mostly accessed with the hyper modifier.

This is a whole thing, some people build boards using multiple weights of the same switch family, like the modifiers are heavier than the alnums, or things like insert/delete require more force to press. Also a thing on some Topre switch keyboards.

Yeah, I take great comfort in my autonomy with Emacs. I am also definitely drawn to those thumb clusters!

Seconding a split ergonomic keyboard: healed my RSI right up. I have the Moonlander. I also make some use of some mod-tap around my thumbs and index/middle fingers. I've significantly reduced my reliance on my pinkies and it's helped *so* much. You can see what my layout is like [here](https://configure.zsa.io/moonlander/layouts/jLR0Z/latest/0) if you'd like some inspiration.

Going to echo your emphasis on tenting - I have my Ergodox EZ mounted at about a 45 degree angle using some camera "Z-bracket" mounts, since I discovered a compounding factor in my RSI was turning my wrist to be flat and having the keyboard mounted at a natural wrist angle (similarly to a vertical mouse) has been a huge step up.

I've had carpal tunnel for the last 10 years, so I know the feeling! Is yours solely RSI, or does your wrist, back of hand or fingers tingle? My right wrist would be killing me, but all the a few doctors over the years said it wasn't carpal tunnel. I tried all the braces, but the only thing that helped actually keep the pain down was [M Braces](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PFUPROO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&th=1). If I started using a computer without one, my wrist would start hurting. Tried another hand Dr. last year, and again said, "well, you don't have a lot of the typical carpal tunnel symptoms, but that's just about the only thing in your wrist that would be causing discomfort, so lets do the surgery and see what happens!" Lo and behold, my wrist stopped hurting after the surgery! Also bough a Kineses Advantage 2 after the surgery to try and up my comfort, but I think a normal keyboard would be just fine at this point. Best of luck finding relief, hand pain is one of the worst things, especially when your job involves a keyboard all day!

The most important thing here is cursorless - https://github.com/pokey/cursorless-talon. It allows structural editing with your voice that *actually* provides comparable programming speed. It only supports vscode at the moment, but there are people actively working on emacs support. Demo here: https://youtu.be/Py9xjeIhxOg

I am glad you were able to get treatment :) My discomfort started with what feels like ulnar nerve compression. It's pain/discomfort/numbness on the outside edge of my right pinky (my return key pinky). The start of my day is mostly tolerable. Things get worse as my day progresses. My wrist(s) sometimes get a little uncomfortable. My thumbs (if I contort them too much) get uncomfortable. Because I (and many of the others in this thread) feel like my symptoms are a bit weird, I will be seeing my doctor next week. After a day of programming if I slide into bed with my wife and rub my forearm/elbow or twist my arm/wrist in the wrong way I get a very wild, unpleasant sensation. Similar to pain, but mostly pins, needless and a burning sensation in that bad pinky. I swear I am not swinging my keyboard like a tennis racket all day. I don't even like tennis.

I have a blank ergodox ez that I do not use (I bought a moonlander this year). If you don't want to buy a new one given the price tag DM me and we could sort something out.

Much of what I am reading is pushing me back in this direction. I have a mental block when it comes to leaving an editing buffer and into something like Magit/Notmuch/XYZ interface and I more or less need to start chording again. Evil collection doesn't cover all of the bases and I eventually fumble. On the whole I try not to install anything that changes too much without my explicit direction for fear that I might lose touch with my understanding of what anything in Emacs expects. At this point though I should probably set my "all or nothing" fallacy aside and attempt to just worry about what's most important here. For curiosity's sake, are you bothered by edge cases? If so, how have you dealt with them?

This is a very kind offer :) Let's chat.

Not sure if anyone mentioned this yet, but I remap caps lock to control. I will not use Emacs key bindings on anything unless that is remapped.

Magit only needs a Cntl c Cntl c chord on commit I think. Doom’s default bindings are Space g g to bring up a magit buffer. Evil covers most bases. I kind of just switch back and forth without thinking about it as doing mother vast majority of my writing in modal keybjnds helps with the rsi. I.e., I’m not chording to navigate my buffer or edit text and only here and there on dialog modes.

Nice! I have mine mapped to escape (for Meta)

There are different solutions. What works for me is symmetric thumb keys for modifiers. These sit around the space bar which is itself only 3 keys wide. This means to press any modifer with my thumb, I basically only move my thumb down. Like you said I also use both hands for every key bind. Since the modifiers form a triangle on each side of the space bar, I can press any combination of them with one finger.

It's good that you will visit a doctor. I did the same a few years ago and the best advice I got was to do deadlifts (as long as it doesn't hurt). They really help, and not only your fingers.

If you’re looking for something similar to SA but shorter, I highly recommend the DSS profile. It’s a bit less common but Signature Plastics should have a few in stock sets.

Thanks, I'll take a look for one of my future builds, looks interesting. I see they even have international sets for them. Are their ABS keycaps nice? I have some PBT Signature Plastics sets, but haven't tried their ABS ones before.

Yeah I like their ABS caps. In my experience their ABS caps (DSA, DSS and DCS for sure, not sure about SA since I haven’t tried it) have a nice texture to them instead of being smooth like the PBT DSA caps I have from them.

I spend my days at the keyboard. My ergonomics include fingerless bike gloves to prevent RSI. Varying posture also helps prevent wrist strain. https://www.reddit.com/r/Ergonomics/comments/wntyh3/alternatives\_to\_the\_desk\_how\_to\_vary\_computing/

35 years ago I started dealing with this issue, first by daisy-chaining two Apple ADB keyboards into a criss-cross layout (with the help of some modelling clay) to try and get my wrists in a more natural position. It was awkward, putting my arms at two slightly separate angles/heights, but it helped and put me on the road to finding the best input devices. I sought motivated principals to guide my search, and found some in the aforementioned writings of Xah Lee whose opinions (e.g. http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboarding.html) are those of a programmer who uses emacs. Recommended reading. But. I'm to this day wrestling with choice of best ergo keyboard for me. For many years I used an early Microsoft Natural to good effect and it didn't break the budget. These days I alternate between a logitech and ergodox, which still scares me a little in its blank keys and extreme programmability. I _think_ I will soon go "all in" on the ergodox, and agree with some others with the (to me) astonishing finding that allowing home-row keys (asdfjkl;) to do double-duty as modifiers (when chorded with other keys) *GREATLY* reduces stress ("emacs pinky" etc). YMMV. Regardless - the most important thing for me was to get my arms at the right height, and allow my wrists to be horizontally straight (e.g. in a plane with my forearms) and never bending/twisting from side to side. Both my keyboards at the right desk height (also *important*) and proper posture (*ditto*) achieve that reasonably. Given how many times our keys strike the keyboard each day, causing little shock waves to be transmitted up our fingers, it should not be surprising how getting the "right" action can effect your keyboarding health. Key action which minimized these impulsive shocks should be preferred. I personally prefer those that provide tactile feedback as they provide a confirmatory signal, which I quickly learn, that the key is actuated without having to "strike bottom", thus eliminating much of the shock and reducing overall stress. Gamers tend to disagree with this choice generally preferring no tactile feedback. The Ergodox is good for this. The Logitech is not. I have not wavered in my conviction that adopting the Kensington Expert Trackball Mouse 35 years ago was key to my solution. Unlike a mouse, it stays in a fixed position on your desk, meaning you can always find it with muscle memory without searching either by eye or moving your hand about. .This reduces your need to take your eyes off the screen, your time to engagement, and your arm movement during use. Maximize cursor speed & acceleration settings in the control panel, and enable modifier keys for slow & vertical/horizontal only movements for fine motion (mostly graphics for me). It all adds up. Hugely. Also, you want to place the trackball as close to the keyboard as possible, minimizing your reaching for it. For this reason, consider keyboards without RHS numeric keypad (alas my Logitech fails this test) as they make you move your arm through a greater angle to get to your mouse, erhm, trackball. Or consider track-balling from the LHS. I'm tempted. Lefties may have an advantage in this regard. After all these trackball consideration, I still seek to minimize its use, of course, via touch typing and lots of keyboard shortcuts and hotkeys. Keep your hands on home-row and your eyes on the screen! Mice & track-balls (horizontal, fixed) mess with this principal. Oh, and, if you're just going down this road and have not yet rebound caps-lock to control, *do it now*. Windows users can employ the free PowerTools for this (and much more).

This sounds wild! I was watching a talk about Emacs Adam Schwartz last night. When he spoke about efficiency he had a really intriguing aside: Learning to type is better than learning an editor. He went on to talk about comfort and Devorak, and the Ergodox. I have been in "editor keybind dysphoria" for a long time now. Nothing ever seems both comfortable and consistent everywhere. I think you and Adam are on to something https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxMVCQ4l49lQ-swKeXbQn8IYyxA0kn88e1

Thanks! Will check them out :)