Do you prefer something like evil mode or the default Emacs keybindings?

A lot of people say Emacs keybindings make their hands hurt, or they are not comfortable to use etc. But what do you think? Do you think that Emacs key bindings are terrible and it's better to use something like evil mode? Should I as a new learning person invest the time I put on learning Emacs to learn the evil mode?

I personally enjoy Emacs binds (as they are phonetic) with [god-mode](https://github.com/emacsorphanage/god-mode).

After about 30 years of standard Emacs bindings, I did an experiment with evil for a month, and ended up really liking it and never switched back. That's been a few years now... (Edit... I really shouldn't respond on Reddit using my phone without coffee)

Let me borrow your hands for a few years and I'll let you know.

So you're satisfied with it. That's nice

Map the caps lock to control key when pressed down and to escape when pressed and released. This will help in awkward key presses with Ctrl/alt(escape). Rebind any keys that you want. I use the cua mode/regular windows keys like ctrl-x,c,v,z for cut, copy, paste, undo. People using evil mode, did you move from vim to emacs or prefer evil mode right from the start?

Well you can tell about your own experiences with your own hands. Cause I'm a human too ;)

Well I think I should read about this god-mode thing. Can you give a quick description of it?

I can't tell whether it's worth it for you to learn soemthing. These types of threads pop up frequently. The only worthwhile answer is "try it out for yourself".

That's a smart job!

You should try vim style key bindings because you may end up loving it, feeling like it fits you like a glove and getting excited about getting better and better at it. Do vim tutor, watch a couple of “vim tricks” videos and see how you feel about it. You should **not** try vim keybindings because emacs key bindings are purportedly terrible. Plenty of people use them and are very happy with them. One way or another, default location for Ctrl key sucks and Caps Lock is way too irrelevant to have such a prime space, so you’d benefit from experimenting with rebinding some keys and/or getting a keyboard that let’s you access Ctrl and Alt comfortably.

I've been using the standard bindings for decades, they're fine for me.

From my experience, it depends on the keyboard. I hurt my left pinky finger when I used Apple keyboards from the 2000s, and the control key is small and in a position that I don't like. Since 2009, I have avoided using an Apple computer. Since then, I have never seriously hurt my finger again.

For me, I find modal editing too distracting. Having to keep track of which mode I'm in is yet another thing to worry about. But with regular keybindings, it isn't. But that's just me. There are many people who like one, many the other. Don't rely on polling for personal decisions. Do what suits you, personally.

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god-mode is a package that lets you use Emacs key chords without the modifier keys. So instead of pressing something like C-x C-f, with god-mode enabled you would just press x f and get the same result.

i was vim user with escape to capslock key...it was good but one thing that frustrated me a lot was I had to press three keys in insert mode just to back one character like when trying to enter '{ }' ESC then 'i' then <space>... what I wanted was just one keyboard shortcut like ctrl + b. Then gave vanilla default emacs a fair shot and change config as I feel necessity... ended up using default bindings with Caps as ctrl on colemak layout and I haven't been this comfortable EVERRRRR.

But how would it be different from "typing" x and f?

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I used nvi before switching to Emacs in 1998, and have no love for modal editing. There's never been a proper study done to determine if one kind of bindings or another causes RSI issues. I'm not discounting that some folks use one style and it causes them problems, but I don't think it's sound to say that the health issues are *because* of the bindings, or that because one person had the issue, it's a problem generally. Use what works for you, you're in the best position to determine what that is.

Neither. Modify keybindings heavily according to your own needs. I modified the defaults a lot to make them confortable and usable for myself. Emacs is about making the editor work for you, not the other way around.

Switched from Vim to Emacs, so evil was pretty much a requirement then. This was a couple years ago. Even now, though, I haven’t felt the need to switch to Emacs bindings.

100% agree. Once I got a reprogrammable keyboard, it suddenly mattered a whole lot less WHAT the key bindings were rather than WHERE.

For me modal editing isn’t about ergonomics but limiting mental context switching. I didn’t realize this until I was pairing with someone a while back. He couldn’t keep track of what I was doing at all. I asked him why he was getting lost, and he said that it was because I wasn’t _looking_ at where I was editing (where my cursor was). This was a huge epiphany for me. The modal editing commands made it so that I didn’t have to “see” to make an edit. For example: If I wanted to copy a line from another file - and I have a unique way of finding that line (eg “I know the line uses X method”) - I open a split buffer, incrementally search for the file, find the line “uniquely”, yank the line, and paste it in the primary window… all without losing my train of thought/looking at the other buffer. It’s like a background process in my head handled that request and didn’t need my eyes to do it. I didn’t realize I wasn’t moving my eyes from my current train of thought until that point. Not having that mental context switch occur ended up being a huge boon :-) **Modal editing has many of these “eyeless” bindings which vanilla emacs seems to only be able to replicate via recording macros (which defeats the purpose).** Edit: Modal editing has _more_ of these bindings _and they have composability_ (learning a new binding has the added benefit of being combined with actions you already know). Look through some of the examples in vimgolf and see when and where you have to resort to using macro recordings.

Without intending to I gradually stopped using vim bindings in Emacs and started using native bindings while in "insert mode" more and more. When I finally switched vim emulation off I didn't miss it at all. In fact, having it gone was such a dramatic reduction in key binding complexity that it felt like a breath of fresh air. My epiphany was the realization that the difference doesn't matter. Most time is spent thinking rather than editing, and a little effort spent in deliberate thought erases any efficiency differences between the key binding approaches. I should say that I do have RSI issues. When using vim for a few years I had RSI issues with the ESC key. When using Emacs it is with the CTRL key. I found that a keyboard where those keys can be put on the thumb fixed both problems.

you press x and f at the same time, hence "chord".

Mapped `capslock` to `control` and found that made a minor difference. Enough that I kept it though.

Yup: what he says.

> A lot of people say Emacs keybindings make their hands hurt Not saying it doesn't happen but it seems to me that a few people say that and a lot of people repeat it. I know (online) a lot more people who have used Emacs keybindings for very long periods with no problems.

>You should not try vim keybindings because emacs key bindings are purportedly terrible. Plenty of people use them and are very happy with them. And because there are way more alternatives than just vim keybindings if you don't like the default keybindings

Why not both? I often use stuff like C-e to go at the end of a line in insert mode (easier than C-o $), C-w and so on, they’re not mutually exclusive and you’re absolutely free to get the best of both worlds (that’s the point of emacs,, you’re free to do what you want). Hell, there’s even a temporary emacs state embeded in evil (C-z by default I think?) If you’re new to emacs and know vim keybindings, it’s a good entry point, no reason to be ashamed about it, if you’re new to both but are still interested in how vim works, evil is a good entry point, if you want something close to the experience from other editors then you can stick with default for now and try out evil when you’re more experienced with emacs in general. That said, you might have to do a lot of shortcut changing if you’re emacs style, since the defaults aren’t anywhere close what you’d expect. That’s why it’s pretty ideal to know vim beforehand and try out evil, these are the people most likely to stick with emacs if they start using it nowadays, so by survivorship’s biais they’re the ones you see the most.

I probably use more Vim than Emacs on any given day, but you can pry Emacs keybindings from my cold dead hands haha. However most default keybinding users probably don't use them as is, rather make some changes here and there which is how it should be. I believe the defaults are very close to just fine, you can just tend to the few pain points and you will have something that's in no way inferior to Vim. For example, awkward Control position is one. Lot of people swap that with Caps Lock and that stops being a problem. Personally I have always used spacebar as both Control (when used as modifier) and Space, and can't comprehend using computers in any other way lol. Also the basics of Emacs keybindings are not only fine, but they are also ubiquitous. Lot of terminal programs use readline so you get to enjoy what you learned. Granted readline also supports Vim keybindings, but in simple terminal programs modal editing is unnecessary overhead that imo doesn't break-even.

I used to know vim pretty well (used it for years). Started playing with eMacs and used the standard key bindings with caps lock mapped to control. Now when I get into a vim session my brain can’t handle it and I have a really hard time navigating. Kind of crazy how a few months of usage has rewired my brain. My finger r hurt initially but I swapped out my keyboard for a lenovo dome one, rested for a bit, and also remapped control key and it has been fine!

No :-)

Not saying you should use whatever is comfortable, but the left arrow key works in insert mode just like \^b :)

Make the Alt key do Ctrl, the Win key do Alt, and the Ctrl key do Win. Now Emacs key bindings are great because you hit Ctrl with your thumbs.

whole point of hjkl and \^b and \^d is that you don't have to leave home row for arrow keys/backspace

I've used both vim and evil in the past, but lately I've been playing with [boon](https://github.com/jyp/boon) and I'm quite enjoying it. It fits nicely with the rest of emacs and has some good ideas, like pressing the yank key twice in a row will fix spaces: # " baz" in the kill ring, | is point foo |bar # press f foo bazbar # press f again foo baz bar I've briefly tried [meow](https://github.com/meow-edit/meow) too, but I abandoned it before finishing the tutorial, I guess kakoune-style editing isn't for me. Boon has the same verb-object structure of vim, which I prefer.

But control isn't on home row, you had to remap. I have a keyboard where I programmed home row to be arrow keys with a modifier

well I also had to remap in vim (ctrl [ is slow ) so if I compare both emacs bindings wins

I prefer modal editing usually, but it never really feels right unless the editor is designed around it the way vim is. Evil is a nice thing to have if you just need to do a quick edit, but because so many of the different modes (and defaults from some packages) it still feels out of place at some points. An emacs like editor with the keybinding design of vim could probably quickly become my favorite editor. As for hurting from emacs keybindings it depends on the keyboard and how you press them. Having control on caps lock usually fixes a lot for me, and otherwise it's usually fine if I press control with my palm. I also try to use the control on both side so that I never have to bend my hands in all kinds of weird angles, just press the control that is the most comfortable for the keybind I'm trying to hit.

Pretty straightforward thanks :)

Basically, when the mode is enabled, any key you press until it is disabled is input as C-key. You can also first type a set key ('g' by default) to make the next keypress evaluate to M-key. Using god-mode lets you minimize stretching and contorting of your pinky finger (or any others) to hit different key combinations. You just turn the mode on and start hitting letters. This is a comfortable experience for me, especially when using movement keys. Imagine holding 'C-n' to move down 10 lines versus just holding 'n'. I have my caps-lock key remapped to escape--escape, in turn, is bound to toggle god-mode.

Love the standard bindings plus my own modifications. Intensely dislike vi-style bindings. (Been using Emacs for decades)

I switched from vim to Emacs before evil-mode existed and I kept thinking that I would love to have Emacs + vim keybindings. And when evil came, I tried it and realized that I had become so accustomed to Emacs's keys that I didn't want or need modal editing anymore.

I just hit control with the side of my hand. All pinky does is press a.

I love evil, wouldn't use Emacs bindings personally but I know they work for a lot of people

Can’t emphasise the caps-lock/ctrl swap enough! If you look at a lisp machine keyboard emacs’ keybindings make a lot more sense, but with caps-lock bound to ctrl on a keyboard with windows keys you’ve got a lot of scope to rebind modifiers in ways that work much better than the default layout. The advantage of you’re a CLI user too is that emacs keybindings are default in most command like interpreters too.

Yeah, at the start of my career the default position on my Sun keyboard was on the middle row, and when Sun switched to align with the "PC" standard I held on tight to my old keyboard, and then next job I found out how to redefine it because there was no way I was going with the idiotic position off in a corner. Probably little has done more to turn people off Emacs than the default Ctrl position on keyboards.

I'm not getting it? How does what keys you use determine whether you have to watch? I'm missing how your example can't be done just as easily with non-modal editing?

I'm still learning, but I prefer vim keybindings. I tried them at first, and they felt very natural. However, I got annoyed with what was a perceived lack of documentation on the internet for what was bound to what. So I tried to switch to emacs bdinings, because everyone has their defaults documented on the githubs. However, I started reading about Emacs and being more deliberate in my practice. I realized that most of the bindings are essentially self-documenting, and that I just needed to learn how to access that documentation in emacs. Which removed the main impetus that I had for learning emacs bindings. I happily switched back to EVIL-mode, and have been enjoying it ever since. I do think my long-term practice of emacs will eventually take me back to learning the default bindings. They work when you're in insert mode, with EVIL, so it can be useful to have that knowledge. And maybe after I learn them for real, (and deal with the ergonomics issues), I'll realize emacs bindings are the way. Until now, I'm quite happy having rebound caps to ctrl, and installing a package that turns a quick jk press in insert mode into escape. It feels increasingly natural to use VIM bindings.

Remap caps lock to ctrl and I'm golden.

Huh? I can do all that with the standard keybindings! I don't need to look at the buffer I'm editing--in fact, I *often* have it hidden below other windows (I use focus-follows-mouse), and a browser on top with documentation of some sort. I, in fact, have found just the opposite of you--I dislike modal editing because it's one more thing to keep track of, and it takes my attention away from what I should be focused on! The sequence you described--that's `C-x 2 C-x f filename C-s string C-a M-SPACE C-n M-w C-x 0 C-y`. That's all firmly embedded in my muscle memory. I don't need to see the screen (or keyboard) for any of that! I could literally do it with my eyes closed, and the only things that would require my conscious attention are the filename and search string. (If you can do all that without thinking of the filename or search string, I *will* be impressed, but that has nothing to do with keybindings.)

> Granted readline also supports Vim keybindings, but in simple terminal programs modal editing is unnecessary overhead that imo doesn't break-even. Can confirm this. As an avid vim user, I tried using and liking vi-mode for readline/bash for several months, but could just not make it work. Modal editing is great for text files, on a per line basis it was just annoying compared to using emacs mode, or using a terminal emulator that supports (some) cua bindings.

Standard with palm press to activate ctrl

OP, If you use evil, I'd recommend binding caps to escape

Edited my response to say it has _more_ options of which Emacs has to resort to recording a macro (look through vimgolf and there will be many examples which Emacs has to resort to using macro recordings) The example I gave is done like this in VIM: ``` ESC # normal mode <leader>g partial-file-name # bound to projectile-find-file /method-name/ ENT # incremental search yy # yank line g; # go to last edit position (across buffers) p # paste line ```

Emacs started as a hacked line editor, TECO.

evil

I use a weird hybrid. I use evil bindings for text editing, but emacs bindings on the command line, and also hybridize evil's insert mode to be a bit more emacs-y (ctrl-a/e/k mainly). Some day I have a vague ambition to learn something like meow/kakoune, because I think that version of modal editing is more intuitive, but there's going to be a lot of muscle memory to unlearn.

I too use both, setting `evil-disable-insert-state-bindings` to `t` makes it a very pleasant experience.

You can also just use the side of your palm for `C` (pretty sure that's the intended use) and it leaves all your fingers free. It becomes comfortable and intuitive pretty quickly, but one of the great things about emacs is you can do whatever suits you best.

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Evil. Coz I started out with vim before switching to emacs.

I started with evil about six months ago but switched to default keys (with a few tweaks). I have been using them for about 2 months now and I actually prefer them over evil. caps lock as ctrl is essential for me though.

... or press right Ctrl with right thumb. Helps to reconfigure keyboard so both ctrl are next to space from each side

Documentation is easier with default keybindings. I do Emacs 8 to 12 hours a day and have no pain. I think pain depends on the keyboard and on your technique, mostly, like playing a piano. A good technique takes conscious practice. You may want to put your .emacs under version control, because with time it will grow and accumulate your own way of using Emacs.

That worked well on my regular keyboard, but then I would struggle on my laptop. I prefer to have a muscle memory that will work in most places

But then Alt becomes harder to use.

You have different modes for inserting text and for editing text. You press a key to toggle the modes (I think it is Esc by default). When you are in insert mode, pressing x and f will behave just like in vanilla emacs. When in edit mode, they'll behave as C-x and C-f

There is an escape binding. I think it is A (which makes sense because in normal emacs C-q is bound to insert-character. In a way, god-mode just permanently holds down your Ctrl-key. Think about god-mode disabled/enabled like vim's insert-mode/normal-mode. You wouldn't enable god-mode for typing a paragraph, but it is cool for doing higher level tasks like moving lines around, correcting spelling errors etc.

I am using a tool called Karabiner Elements on a Mac. That allows me to map caps key to control and also the <return> key to control (when pressed together with another key). So on a US keyboard I have two control keys in reach of both the left and right hand pinkie. With this setup using the default keybindings are great. Especially so because Karabiner allows me to use control+n or control+p as up/down arrow keys in any app, not just Emacs. And did you know that in the terminal you have standard Emacs keybindings as well? C-a / C-e / C-n / C-p etc work in the terminal ever since.

I remap command -> ctrl and capslock -> alt on my mac, and it's golden.

There is a package called keyfreq. It shows how many times you used a command. With data collected by keyfreq, you can reach your own conclusion.

Default keybindings are fine for me. I was using evil mode only because it eased my transition from Vim to Emacs but not because evil mode was better. Now I use the default keybindings all day long for work I don’t think I’ll ever want to go back to evil again. If you’re brand new to Emacs I think evil mode is an unnecessary layer of complexities added to your experience.

> You should not try vim keybindings because emacs key bindings are purportedly terrible. Plenty of people use them and are very happy with them. Yep. i'm regularly irritated by how many people parrot the "Emacs bindings will give you RSI" meme as an objective truth. It's one thing to say that a number of people have experienced that; it's another to claim that it's as inevitable as gravity. (Context: i regularly use Vim in addition to Emacs.)

I don't touch-type but use my own crazy system, so I press control with my thumb. No Emacs pinky for me.

Personally I only started using emacs itself recently, while have been using emacs keybindings for years - around from when I started working as a developer. The reason was: - I wanted a system to keep my hands on place instead of jumping to arrows - I had some likes/dislikes between vim/emacs keybindings after adopting both - My IDE (one of Jetbrains') did have vim-mode, but it broke on some operations, while just choosing emacs keyset was much more consistent - in bash you already have some of the emacs keybindings by default, while vim mode in them felt really awkward for terminal to me - generally, vim way with switching between edit and view modes feel very unnatural for me and was breaking my workflow

Well, the main point is to use both ctrls. Never could see a point of remapping caps to ctrl. It is much more ergonomic and convenient to press right ctrl with right hand, then C/X/s/... with left one instead of make caps ctrl and do left hand yoga.

I have been looking for something like this! Thank you so much for the enlightenment!

Similar here! After 10 years of Emacs keybindings I switched to evil and I love the composability of the commands, it just makes sense and it is easier for me to remember all the combinations. I thought I don't like modal but quickly I just stopped even noticing that I am switching modes. What I also like is that vim keybindings are emulated in any other editor better than Emacs keybindings so switching when needed is easier. Btw I bind ESC to "f d".

Evil mode, started with Vim like months ago and I don't feel the need to switch to default, I do feel guilty because of the rest of the replies saying its good with caps lock so maybe I should try it?

It's not about the keybindings to me as those are configurable. It's about wanting a modal editing environment and Vim is the king of modal editors.

I agree with you. Remmaping caps to ctrl for me is a less-than-ideal solution for when I'm on my laptop. For me is less about the stretching, and more that it forces me to change the fingers that I use for specific keys. I touch type the default way, so I use left pinkie for z, ring finger on x, and so on. If I'm holding Ctrl with my left pinkie, I'll need to change those. I also use both shift keys, so I much rather be able to use both alts and both ctrl keys. That's why I gets extra annoyed at the space bar being so long, it makes it uncomfortable to reach with my thumb the two keys on the left and on the right of the space bar. I've tried using my left and right ring and pinkie fingers to use ctrl but then it gets mad annoying to do keychords that need to switch hands, like C-c C-x C-y. I've tried a bunch of different things, and none felt very comfortable. I finally bought a keyboard with split space bar, and now I have both Alt and Ctrl in a position that is very easy to hold while pressing any other key I want. Life is good now.

You can also use goto-line, in case your string is not unique enough. Default binding is M-g g, making it pretty similar to Vim, since you can just press \`Esc gg \*line number\*\`, while in Vim you'd usually do \`Esc \*line number \* gg\` (The Esc is optional if you are already in normal mode, but most people spam Esc as a muscle memory thing anyways).

absolutely evil mode. I use doom, so a lot of doom specific keybinds in there that im happy with. I just rebound CAPS to escape, everything is shiny.

In most keyboard layouts, `b` is not on the home row. Did you move it there?

while typing try pressing (traditional) caps lock+b and resume typing...do same with left arrow key. what feels better & faster?

xah fly keys

I prefer evil mode, but only because I am so used to vim keybindings. Vim also uses CTRL-something keybindings. It doesn’t really matter to me because I have an ergo keyboard with thumb cluster, but with a normal keyboard this only gets better with keybindings like space macs and doom have them

> In a way, god-mode just permanently holds down your Ctrl-key So it's a "Ctrl-lock" essentially. Personally I'd recommend using sticky modifier keys, and then you can trivially get a "lock" for *every* modifier (and combination of modifiers); not just for Ctrl (and Shift). I find this aspect very useful (on top of the primary benefit of not ever having to hold down a modifier key), and of course it's effective everywhere (even if Emacs is the primary use-case).

Hax-fly-keys for two year, colemak keyboard