Discussion about Emacs being user friendly/its interface

I've read the topic about Emacs being a user friendly and how it's userbase is low compared to vim (3% to 25%). I know Emacs is a powrful tool, I use it org on my phone, dired, its shell, vterm, etc. But, I got to this point because when I, 6 years ago, migrated from Windows, wanted to have all my tools to be open-source. To get the basic functionality on Emacs, like select, copy, paste, you have to learn its special keybindings. I know you do that in vi/vim too. But, focus on Emacs being friendly and then users being able to explore lisp and expand their configuration. Make Emacs a 'bait', kind-of mentality. There are a lot of starter configs, but none currently compares itself to an modern IDE, doesn't make org-mode feel like Typora or some paid/closed application, but Emacs has the potential. The last point made, I know there are, at least brought up in the discussion, how the GUI app was made and how it functions, that makes it limited in many aspects. We have hooks, like **after-change-major-mode-hook,** so we can have diffrent UI depending on the major mode (one for org, python, c, etc), and get inspiration from ides. And, lastly, all of this together, except for the architeture for the GUI, may make users think that Emacs got lost somewhere. We all know that we love Emacs because it can be what we want. All of us got an all white screen and made it ours, behave like we wanted. How enabling cua-mode(brought up inthe discussion) can change this? Imo, users simply would have a better start in UI, but get all the expandability that Emacs has. ​ Anyway. I did some lisp to get my functions, I write my articles in org, but have no time to thinkering about it.

The user friendlyness of Emacs is not its GUI or look and feel, but the absolute freedom to configure the system as you please. This freedom is the most friendly thing you can do for a user.

Was there a question buried in here somewhere?

​ Feels like a rant

Is it Prot who made the video about Is Emacs for You? Find it and watch it. EDIT: Here it is -> https://youtu.be/qTncc2lI6OI Emacs is not a ready-to-be-used turn-key Integrated Development Environment. It is a powerful tool box you can use to turn it into exactly the kind of environment that you want. If you don't want oil on the floor, don't buy a Harley-Davidson. If you don't want to assemble your furniture, don't buy from IKEA. ​ Even thinking about CUA-mode is flirting with disaster. It goes against the fundamental ideas behind how the key bindings works in Emacs. You will never be able to see the Emacs light if you go down that frustrating path. If you don't like to wrap your head around new paradigms, perhaps Emacs is not for you? Maybe you'd be happier with XCode, VSCode, Sublime, or CLion? ​ However, installing Doom-Emacs or Spacemacs gives you a really polished, great-looking Emacs without compromising the elegant and powerful mechanics of how it works. ​ People for whom Emacs is not the best fit should probably use a more polished, but limited, work environment. Blaming Emacs for their inability to make use of it is not fair.

I'm new to Linux and very new to making a Free And Open Source development environment. If there were a distro that had the standard keybindings that I used in Atom or VS I would have ABSOLUTELY used it, but would I learn anything else? And there will always be someone saying "it doesn't do this or that" without learning how they could make it theirs and do it themselves. Like I said my journey is very new and I was first learning Vim, then I thought learning Emacs DOOM would be the way to go (I'd just need to learn 1 set of keybindings), but is that giving Emacs a fair and honest assessment? So, regroup, get 28.1 from the website (Linux Mint has 26.1 and most people were on 27 at least, so compiled my first FOSS package) And I gotta say it's A LOT! But I'm learning things the same way I'd eat an elephant, one spoonful at a time. I found it better to live in Emacs, if that makes any sense, to move around edit files and learn what I have to. The tutorials here have been a great help, better than some Udemy courses I paid for. And there are some avid fans on YouTube that put out some good videos I'm following. I hope this will give me a helpful tool if Linux ever blows up at work ( fingers crossed ). And minimally, it gives me a home tool I can make my own.....eventually.

I am fully committed to Emacs, but as much as I love it: It’s not for the average user. I can’t think of a non tech person being able to productively use it as they would use OmniFocus for task management or MS Word for documenting something. My config is highly specialized, I use a very custom key setup, that let’s me dance with Emacs, but I am not the average user. Emacs is not intended to be the tool for the average user. You have to like tinkering with your tools, you should be technically inclined / versed, and patient, as in learning any craft. But once you master it, you’ll fly.

> Make Emacs a 'bait', kind-of mentality. Who are you speaking to?

You'd be surprised by how well some non-tech people take to Emacs! I've heard of philosophers, doctors and lawyers using it, and even contributing to it or publishing packages.

That's true, but I think these people just like using their computer and enjoy tinkering with software such as Emacs. The average doctor or lawyer doesn't use it. The one that enjoys tinkering with their tool uses it. Source: I am a chemical engineering student and have nothing to do with tech as my background. However, I have loved computers since I was a child and after discovering Emacs tinkered with it to get it work as I wanted. No one I know in my uni even knows what Emacs is and even if they did, they probably wouldn't bother spending hours upon hours configuring it because they don't find it fun. I do, as most non-tech people who use it. So while your statement is correct, the above statement is also correct. Most non-tech people simply wouldn't use it. They ones that do, despite not in a tech profession are in the end what you would call tech people.

Why do we care about it. If they want a starter kit, they can use it. If you believe that they are not as good as modern IDEs go tell the people that maintain that starter kit. Most people using vanilla Emacs couldn't care less about user friendliness in the way you mean it, for which the correct term is actually beginner friendly. Emacs is very user-friendly, more than most programs out there, it just demands you learn its basics first. Most of us care that Emacs is a tool that allows you to customize virtually anything you want. We don't mind the user base is small, its large enough to where new packages/projects spring up every few days, nor are we interested how beginner friendly this software is. Frankly, most of us have a customized config which works for us, and most people who follow the way of Emacs, eventually get to such a state. I have seen similar arguments in this subreddit before and every time I just feel they make no sense. People making these are oblivious of how little we care about the things you mention.

So you're saying that you'd call people that spend a lot of time tinkering with Emacs tech people? In that case I agree that people who are *not* tech people do *not* spend a lot of time tinkering with Emacs. :D

To an extent I would say yes. If you are interested in tinkering with the config of your computer's programs you are probably a bit tech inclined.