emacs is BLOATED

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They say that maybe the universe is a simulation. I believe the universe exists inside someone’s Emacs. (God? The Aliens?)

I love how raw your anger and frustration are :D I'm very curious what experienced folk think about this.

As an Emacs user since the '80s, I thought I was going to hate this post when I started reading it, but... I too still use a "proper" external terminal emulator in preference to the packages OP lists, and apart from a very very occasional -- like once every year or two -- bout of whimsy I never use tetris, doctor, yow, etc. You may have a point. A configure option sounds like a good idea. You should pitch it to the dev list.

Emacs would be better off if all unnecessary additions like games would be installable instead as separate packages from the ELPAs. There is also a lot of outdated code in Emacs, obsolete modes etc. However you are wrong about the integration of shells. Eshell and shell-mode are shells, not terminals. By integrating the shell in Emacs you can take advantage of Emacs commands. Commands can send their output directly to an Emacs buffer for further manipulation. The terminals are necessary to fill the gaps left by Eshell and shell-mode such that you can still run terminal ui programs (for example based on curses) in Emacs even if you live mainly in Eshell. Configuring and using Eshell certainly doesn't require thousand of lines. Nevertheless both shells and terminals could also be installable separately from the main Emacs editor. Anyway other "editors" like neovim also come with terminal and shell integration. Maybe you prefer to use an editor like nano, vi or uemacs?

Thank you for the brief terminal emulator & shell explanation as to why they exist in emacs. If it's really necessary to make emacs functional instead of eye-candy and flairs sake then I'm completely content with it. I would like if the devs remove games, doctor and alike features from default emacs build & provide a configure option or just completely eradicate it.

vterm (the only one in your list which is not built-in) is relatively recent, so clearly some people in 2018 saw a use for a modern terminal in emacs even in a world with plenty of terminal emulators. I personally don't find the appeal in using a full featured terminal in emacs. But for small tasks which don't require a full featured terminal, shell or eshell offer seamless transition between rest-of-emacs and the terminal, in a way that no external program can match. Searching in the output, accessing emacs functions from the shell (with eshell)... And M-! is great for a quick in n out. > Sorry boomers, y'all should really take the time out to checkout scratchpads instead of adding thousands of lines to your init.el (config file) just to make emacs worthy of using :D Thousands of lines? All those shells are built-in so 0 config line necessary, and vterm is essentially a matter of (use-package vterm), one line.

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>configure This!. I totally agree with OP about the games, they should be optional, doesn't make much sense to include them by default. But, the shell is a godsend. I mean, doing `C-u` and `M-x shell-command-on-region` is super super useful!

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I've been an Emacs user for 3 years. I only stumbled upon the tetris command a couple of weeks ago. I found out about the other frivolous features from your post here. So it's safe to say these things never bothered me or came in my way when I work. That said, I haven't been searching for reasons to get mad about, so no wonder I haven't found them. I never try to force emacs on everything I do. I use a mix of gnome-terminal and vterm. If I am already in emacs, it's just a lot quicker to launch a context specific terminal in the same directory as the file I am editing, do something quick, search / copy parts of the output and close the terminal. I am not familiar with all the terminals you mentioned. Maybe they are as good as you say they are, and it's been a gap in my knowledge. Or, maybe you don't quite understand how emacs users really use the terminals. Both knowledge gaps are equally possible. In a professional context such knowledge gaps are handled with pair programming. So if you were to pair program (pair work?) with an emacs terminal user, you might appreciate what they do better, OR you might convince them to use one of the tools you mentioned. But given your toxic and insulting rhetoric, I can't see "myself or any sane person" choosing to exchange knowledge with you.

>I would like if the devs remove games, doctor and alike features from default emacs build & provide a configure option or just completely eradicate it. Games are just elisp files, nothing is built into the binary of emacs, no code gets run unless you explicitly want it to run. Depending on your OS you can just block these files from getting installed if they bother you so much, for example using `INSTALL_MASK`on Gentoo. And if your OS doesn't have such an option but a couple of kilobytes bother you that much, you're probably not using a sufficiently eccentric OS. Edit: Just checked: `/usr/share/emacs/28.0.92/lisp/play` is 503k of superfluous code on my system. The horror.

I didn't explicitly go out of my way to find those features. I saw them when I was watching Bugswriter's videos, particularly -> [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QOK66zha8o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QOK66zha8o) Toxic or not, give it some thought and you'll see why I said that. I don't need/want your or any **sane person's** knowledge who might think/thinks keeping doctor and games in emacs a good idea.

Yeah I get you. You're right, the size is almost non-existent and doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. But guess what? useless, unnecessary & trash features which are **superfluous code** as you say builds up overtime and make a huge mess for the next dev who's gonna work on it (maintain it). Your comment on the **superfluous code** reminds me of the horror of most people's git commit message :D

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I disagree! It's relative unbloated. Intellij installer is 2gb. That's bloated. Mapping a keyboard shortcut to a function in visual code requires you to edit code in a few places, read tons of horrible written docs made for idiots and maybe even watch a few tutorial videos made by idiots for idiots. That's bloated. Having the same Elisa and games in emacs since decades is a cultural thing, as is the default theme and welcome screen. Every user sees immediately what one can do with emacs and that this was possible already decades ago. Emacs and lisp are part of hacker culture, so please bring in your share into our beautiful culture and write a song about how trashy the built-in shells are. Preferably with irony, because the shells do not suck. Emacs is not a text editor, what's so hard to understand here? It's an elisp environment that contains text editing features that are hardcoded in C. Everything else is done in a higher language that is embedded. Embedded higher level languages aren't nowadays something unheard off, but emacs was the first and comes from a pre msWindows stupid mass culture time. Spacemacs is bloated with features. Emacs is not. It comes with a very short init.el by default and you have not a million configuration options available by mouseclick. Only some to get you going. The startup time for emacs is not horrible. It's not snappy-immediately as with the vim's but it's good. And you can run emacs as a daemon in the background if you want it snappy. Emacs is an operating system that is embedded in a host operating system. That's why it needs a shell. Or two, since they don't take up so much disk space and so the user has some choice. Do you really prefer a text editor that hasn't much features besides a look that is now on fashion and annoyances that take gigabytes of your disk space and ram? Or do you prefer a quick and dirty editor that is good at editing some files and is very decent with default configuration (vim, neovim)? Emacs is none of those. Emacs is emacs. People underestimate the expressive power of elisp(or any lisp). Take a look at dash.el or s.el. See how well designed and simple to use libraries there are available. If you want to develop an app with text based interface consider emacs. One person was able to easily implement something like Elisa already decades ago. There are plenty of elisp apps available that do a better job then their curses based alternatives. Eww is also not that bad and had it's use cases. Did you try to read webpages in darkroom mode in Fullscreen in eww? Zero distractions while reading and no JavaScript by default. It has it's merits and can make you rethink what software is nowadays and develop a more critical point of view in what direction software should evolve. Emacs is a fantastic tool with a million use cases created by and for intelligent people. If you want vim then just use vim. I also use vim(nowadays neovim with fukamachi's config). And i also use emacs. I don't use DE's but minimal fluxbox. I can check the battery status on emacs with the command "battery". I can make a keyboard shortcut for anything i wish to with exactly one line of code. Try that with anything else and rethink your concept of bloatedness. Emacs has a million functions for everything. And even more millions available from users from all over the world. That's the functional paradigm. Millions of functions for everything instead of a handful of functions and millions of data structures. Would you prefer to have one cathedral that tells you exactly what design pattern you must use for every possible use cases that they predicted? And have to copy paste a hundred lines of code to get started? That's how you script the current popular IDEs. In emacs you use one function call. And you have classic examples what you can do with that already installed. Emacs is zipped a 50mb package. That's not bloated. Look at how much capabilities of has already installed. You can cut everything out and make it a trivial text editor. But you can also use a million plugins, modes and even write Elisa in it. Emacs is a young and sexy antillope. You only looked at her big nice titties and called her bloated and fat. That's not true! Emacs has class and is fast. Emacs is for everyone, youngsters that just start to code as well as for oldies who are in this business since 1975. She can become everything that you wish to be. Take care about your finances, your mental well-being and your code. And all of this is available with one function call. And not a ton of oop java corpo bullshit and ten video tutorials. Docs for everything are available at your fingertips. Included in the small package. You don't have to download a gigabyte of crap and register at some assholes. For current times the emacs package is tiny but delivers a quadrillion of functionality. The old stuff included is an important part of culture and should become UNESCO world heritage.

LOL, I just use arch with dwm. Tho you're right, this stuff doesn't matter at all. It's just computers.

I love this comment. It's beautiful.

> 503k of superfluous code on my system. The horror. Hopefully you haven't installed any browsers on said system! Edit: Whoops trying out a new Reddit application and misread user colors, I thought you were OP and didn't read the sarcasm

Still there is no good reason to install them. You have to look at it from another perspective. There is a significant maintenance burden here. The Emacs maintainers are overwhelmed by the amount of unnecessary code they have to maintain. Of course some of the code is mostly stable and one doesn't have to do much about it. But Emacs could do better and get rid of the obsolete code and even stable code could still profit from improvements. But the focus is certainly not on improving the games, and rightly so. Therefore these things just rot.

I love too

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> You have to look at it from another perspective. There is a significant maintenance burden here. The Emacs maintainers are overwhelmed by the amount of unnecessary code they have to maintain. I don't know where this constant stream of people not understanding how free software works comes from. If there actually was a "maintenance burden", the code would be dropped in an instant, especially non essential stuff like that. Clearly someone cares enough to maintain that code. And how would they just work harder on other (in your eyes) more important things if you disallowed them from working on this? Who would tell them in the first place? This is *free* software, not *make your product more profitable* software. >But Emacs could do better and get rid of the obsolete code and even stable code could still profit from improvements. Right, that's how free software works. If the company that produces emacs would tell their employees to just focus on these other things, it could be run a lot more efficiently and due to the increased profits they could sell a much better product to their customers. /s Look, I'm not saying we need the games, I've not run a single one of them for as long as I've run emacs, but as long as some of the devs want it there, why do you care? It doesn't affect you one bit except those 502k of code. If that bothers still bothers you, get Guix, Nix or Gentoo or something and get rid of it at install time.

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>and make a huge mess for the next dev who's gonna work on it (maintain it). Yes, the dev that is forced to maintain it by their employer, the evil GNU corporation. Jokes aside, if you look at the git history for that code, it's mostly improvements and tweaks, made by people who seem to care (for whatever reason) enough, less of an imposed maintenance toll on involuntary maintainers.

There is a simple explanation: Emacs is a project from an era where Editor means "Desktop Environment" or "Human-computer UI", not the modern meaning "just something to manipulate text". Why desktop environments have games? Well, because people (some) like them, they are a kind of "standard set of apps" for any desktop, so they are for Emacs. Beside that "bloated" is a complex terms: did the presence of Tower of Hanoi, Doctor etc touch you in some ways like a visually bigger menu, slowness or something else? It yes Emacs is bloated for you, if no they are just features you typically ignore and they do not cost nothing for you... Emacs is actually bloated in the sense that there are many layers of code from different times that while "maintained" in the sense that if something happen someone will fix but not really evolved (just see the built-in NewsTicker how limited and buggy it is) and that's a common issue with any large and general//multiple purpose project, but that's is, not something easy to correct...

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I think you don't understand how Emacs development works. Existing code is almost never dropped even if it is obsolete, or at least it takes many years. I am also not saying that any of the code should be removed irreversibly but it would be better to move packages out of the Emacs core. Contributing to core is arguably harder than contributing to packages on ELPA or MELPA. Therefore moving packages out would help in winning more contributors, leading to more improvements.

You clearly don't know how to use these components. The integrated Emacs shell is not trash. It is superior to other free standing shells if you know what you are doing. It is not wrong to see Emacs as an OS or an application platform which gives you a great amount of integration. If you like that, use Emacs, if you don't use tools which are more loosely coupled. Both perspectives are valid. There have been many attempts at tightly integrated systems, e.g., in Smalltalk. However I do agree with you that Emacs sucks at many things. It seems it got genuinely better over the years, many bugs got fixed. But it is not focused enough since everything is stuffed into Emacs itself. If all additional Emacs-based applications would be distributed as packages the situation would be better.

> Emacs is a project from an era where Editor means "Desktop Environment" or "Human-computer UI", not the modern meaning "just something to manipulate text". This is … not true, at all. The name "emacs" comes from "Editor Macros", so it's hard to understand why you think there was no such thing as a "[text] editor" at the time.

>Existing code is almost never dropped even if it is obsolete, or at least it takes many years. Same with the Linux kernel. But in the rare instance when no maintainer could be found, instead of delivering non-functional code, modules were dropped. What you don't seem to get is that in a development model that is based on volunteers, doing volunteer work, either someone wants to do it, or it doesn't get done. And in the latter case, either you drop the module, or you ship it broken. It's not like Stallman will hold a gun to a contributor's head and tells them to fix the module or else. If really nobody wanted those games, and nobody would care enough to maintain them, honestly, what do you think would happen? >Contributing to core is arguably harder than contributing to packages on ELPA or MELPA. Therefore moving packages out would help in winning more contributors, leading to more improvements. It's a double-edged sword at best and not necessarily a trade-off based on whether a feature is in core or one of the repos. If a feature is in core it is put to a higher standard of quality control and that's what makes it "hard to contribute", not that it's in a different repo. More is not necessarily always better if you're losing quality as a tradeoff. And it's not like emacs is forcing any package maintainers to enter their work into core. Vice versa, if the emacs devs don't want your changes to core you can always fork the module and put it on MELPA.

> What you don't seem to get is that in a development model that is based on volunteers, doing volunteer work, either someone wants to do it, or it doesn't get done. And in the latter case, either you drop the module, or you ship it broken. It's not like Stallman will hold a gun to a contributor's head and tells them to fix the module or else. Do you regularly contribute to Emacs or follow emacs-devel? If not you don't know what you are talking about. You assume that I don't understand how free software works. Of course it is based on the work of volunteers and they chose freely on what to work on. But there are other aspects to it, more related to how the project is organized and maintained, which determines if something is a burden or not. Changes in Emacs itself happen on a much slower pace and in a much more chaotic way than you seem to assume. In contrast, the Linux kernel maintenance follows an entirely different model, which works better, by far. > It's a double-edged sword at best and not necessarily a trade-off based on whether a feature is in core or one of the repos. If a feature is in core it is put to a higher standard of quality control and that's what makes it "hard to contribute", not that it's in a different repo. This is another indication that you don't know what you are talking about. Did you read some of the Emacs code? Then you would know better how bad the quality actually is. This is another aspect where Linux differs from Emacs. The Linux kernel has a much stronger focus on quality which is enforced by rigorous asshole behavior of the maintainers at the top of the project.

I also think that your rhetoric sucks and that you should do better. With your post you set the initial tone of the discussion and nothing good can come from that. Don't provoke with your tone, provoke with your thoughts.

The name is historical and due to earlier Emacs implementations. GNU Emacs is clearly an attempt at an integrated environment.

> And it's not like emacs is forcing any package maintainers to enter their work into core. Vice versa, if the emacs devs don't want your changes to core you can always fork the module and put it on MELPA. Of course I agree with that, however in practice this approach just won't fly. MELPA seems hesitant to accepts packages which are forks of Emacs core packages or more generally just forks of other packages. Furthermore if a package lives inside Emacs, it is basically blessed as the canonical solution, making it much harder for packages outside of Emacs. Just look at what happened to flycheck or projectile.

The games do nothing except take a few kilobytes of disk space. Who cares? The suckless folks make nice and clean GUIs but they are stuck in the 70s where K&R worked on 3 one megabyte disks. Disk space is not a concern anymore. Ironically you use X11, which is probably several times larger than Emacs.

It's not really, imho. But that has nothing to do with the ahistorical fiction mentioned above. :)

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Then what do you use? wayland? lol I'm ranting about emacs because I like & care about it. I don't give two shits about my window manager or display server & protocols.

>Just look at what happened to flycheck or projectile. I use both of them, what are you saying? Are they not in ELPA anymore? Are the not used? >Furthermore if a package lives inside Emacs, it is basically blessed as the canonical solution I think that's a good thing. project.el and flymake *are* more canonical, not just treated as such. Sure, projectile and flycheck might get fewer users now that these exist, but is that really an issue? And how is that an argument for project.el and flymake not being in core? There is an argument for having both a canonical, dependable, slow-moving alternative and a separate one with more fast-paced development that offers some more niche features and UX.

> Mention some perks of emacs other than the ones I mentioned instead of just down voting like a pathetic spineless coward you are. If you don't want to be downvoted, tone down the aggressivity. Fwiw I didn't downvote you. > Could you please kindly elaborate more on what those small tasks are? Because I really need to know the use case. My use cases are for example (mostly shell, sometimes eshell): - testing and debugging a shell script (I can have the script run in a side panel in one keypress, as opposed to call the scratchpad, up arrow, enter, hide the scratchpad) - running an ad-hoc script with long output and searching through it directly using C-s, copy/pasting the content and arranging it (which in a terminal at the very least requires dealing with annoying shortcuts) - inserting the output of one-liners such as `pwd` or `date` with `C-u M-!` (okay those I could just as well do with elisp) For all those things, the fact that the terminal will start in the current directory is also sometimes very convenient (as opposed to having to ssh and cd your way to the appropriate context). But yes, I too use an actual terminal emulator more often than the shell in emacs. > Clearly some people just want to reinvent new wheels to do the same thing in a worse way. Definition of insanity IMHO. The most recent addition to the terminal family in emacs is vterm, and its core feature is that it uses libvterm instead of reinventing the wheel. > But honestly, no matter how much I love emacs, here's the harsh truth. It sucks at text-editing compared to vi/vim/nvim Your opinion is not everyone's opinion. > It sucks at terminal emulation. Nobody's forcing you to use it. > Why even implement games, doctor & alike features? it will inherently suck(s) at that too. Nobody's forcing you to use them. > But the reality here is that emacs just tries to do everything while sucking incredibly at it. (...) emacs' worth is tied to the packages/features (both built-in and external) magit, org-mode, org-roam, DIRED, and some other stuff I'm too tired to mention. So: emacs tries to do everything but sucks at it, except for being a git interface, a combo notes/agenda/todo/publishing/literate programming, a zettelkasten-like note software, a file manager... ?

>Changes in Emacs itself happen on a much slower pace and in a much more chaotic way than you seem to assume. In contrast, the Linux kernel maintenance follows an entirely different model, which works better, by far. So, as you didn't answer that question I will ask again. What do you think would happen if nobody maintained those games? All development halts, and no more emacs? Or would they maybe drop them?

You're right. And you're wrong. And this is my take on this issue: You might be right about default Emacs functionality that might not be used by a number of people. However, the overall size is still small for nowadays computers (and mobile phones) so you don't have to worry about that. The additional functionality doesn't interfere with the things you actually do. So you don't have to worry about that. If you're a fan of minimalism, you should probably switch to the vim-only community. An honest and neutral recommendation: I'm using vim on a daily basis as well. But then you only get minimalism editor. And nothing else. That's a totally different approach and you will miss tons of features and integration (org + email, ...). The thing is: everybody is using a different sub-set of Emacs features.

I love the sarcasm here! Nicely done.

yeah that's why I use both vi/vim/nvim and emacs.

> Please, give me some valid explanation as to why these features were added Because someone found then useful at one time? > Sorry for my rant, It's just I'm obsessed with perfectionism & minimalism. Minimalism is mostly a mater of priority: you may find important to spend time cleaning up your tools of whatever you find useless. Others won't or they will rather spend that time using what you consider a cluttered tool doing stuff with it. Who's right? Who's to decide? As for perfectionism, well. Like you I (am learning to) like Emacs too and that is the reason why I don't mind it not being the perfect tool it could have been if we were living in a perfect world.

Still, each “superfluous“ feature (games etc) adds a QA burden to every release, adds occasional bugs to be tracked, adds implicit dependencies on internal behavior that other devs need to be conscious of. That burden is probably minimal for any given feature, but multiply it by however many such features are present in the emacs codebase, and suddenly it’s a genuine hassle. Anyone who’s spent time with a large codebase will recognize the frustration when specs for some ancient, barely-used code path start failing due to seemingly unrelated changes. I don’t really mind these features being present, and the whimsy of them is sort of charming, but I‘d bet that emacs releases would happen much faster if stuff like this weren’t in core.

Then don't complain that your aircraft carrier does ruin the green when used as a golf cart. *SCNR*

> Also terminal integration, why? Because I haven't had time or enough need to make an emacs mode, but I want to run some command in that terminal while retaining the familiar and consistent emacs environment. > Sorry for my rant, It's just I'm obsessed with perfectionism & minimalism. As you may infer, I care about a specific type of perfectionism too. Ideally (I think, not 100%), I'd never have to use a terminal/shell because everything has an emacs mode or at least a transient.

Please see the first few sentences of my comment. I said, I only learned about most of these frivolous features (everything from your original post except terminals) from your post. I never used them, neither do I plan to. The first and the only consequence of these features' existence I'm noticing is your anger. I find this quite hilarious and feel grateful to those those who contributed these frivolous features :D :D. I was merely addressing your points about terminal emulators. People's needs, workflows and preferences are different. I am certain people have various good reasons for using the terminals that they do. These reasons are specific to them. You'd understand them if you pair programmed with them, or even have a decent conversation with them. These reasons may not apply to you, but at least you'll understand them from another perspective. But instead, you started off by insulting everyone that doesn't use your favorite terminal emulators.

HAHAHA. I'm just complaining because I like emacs more than vi/vim/nvim; if you haven't noticed. I think it's natural to raise voice and complain when something you like goes down the dark path.

>Anyone who’s spent time with a large codebase will recognize the frustration when specs for some ancient, barely-used code path start failing due to seemingly unrelated changes. As someone who has had that misfortune, I still don't think it applies here. This is not some important base library like openssl or something. Believe me, I'd agree in that case. Or even if this was about a part of emacs' actual C source. I'm firmly against unnecessary complexity in software, I understand those arguments. But this is not that. This is some tiny module nothing depends on, that isn't even run. All that can really happen here worst-case is that these games you don't play anyway stop working. This is just some weird, baseless obsession with "bloat", some irrational irk about a file on your disk that you feel isn't supposed to be there.

>Please see the first few sentences of my comment. I said, I only learned about most of these frivolous features... Yeah I didn't write what I actually meant. Let me fix/rephrase that. >But instead, you started off by insulting everyone that doesn't use your favorite terminal emulators. I never mentioned my fav terminal emulators. I just mentioned st and alacritty/kitty because those are relatively better than other terminal emulators (I tried almost all) on GNU/Linux and wayyyyyyyyyyyy better than ansi-term, vterm & eshell in emacs. Need quick teminal work? use scratchpads.

I think having games under a flag etc would be OK. They don't really bother me, but I would probably not install them if the option was there not to. I have stronger feelings about obsolete modes though. As an example, there are a couple of vim modes that ship with Emacs, but they've been superseded by Evil-mode long ago and are unmaintained. If you're a beginner coming from vim and going through the tutorial etc and just browsing around, you'll find Vip and have a much worse experience than if Vip was not there in the first place.

>You only looked at her big nice titties and called her bloated and fat. And to think I almost missed this gem because you decided to couch it in a thousands words of fluff. Keep communication brief and distilled. Advice for all redditors.

Start valuing literature and reading(or even writing). Advice for all humans.

Okay, then remove all the elisp you think is "bloat" and save the few megabytes on your disk. I don't see the utility of this post.

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Is that sarcasm? Or are you just cruel? Sending the guy to the dev list. Hilarious. /s

That’s a lot of words to say “I don’t like eMacs” Is Tetris frivolous? Yeah probably. But I think it’s intent with being included is yo showcase what emacs is capable of

That means that it is brief and distilled. QED.

Love this. Is this already one of the tenets of the Church of Emacs?

"Goes down the dark path"? Present tense? Emacs never was the thing you wanted. It will never be the thing you want. It has no obligation to be the thing you want. Emacs is not minimalist and hasn't been since it's inception. That's kind of the point of emacs. Minimalism not as a restriction in the system, but as a feature of any given implementation. My minimalism is not your minimalism. And I don't need a fascist imposition of somebodies perceived minimalism detroying my freedom to use emacs the way I want. Your minimalism is not any better or worse than my minimalism.

Oh boomers your software is soo bloated … much better to use this electron app *facepalm* and how big are the games etc really? couple of kb? The development burden is also tiny (if any) because emacs is such a stable platform. And do these couple of kb / mb matter on a modern computer compared to all the other nonsense you have on your system? Sorry this is a pretty idiotic take … Ps: the terminals are one of the best things of emacs sorry …

I was going to say "Come on, they're not that bad". Then I thought, maybe I'll ask for someone else to speak up for them instead, 'cos I've regretted crossing paths with them myself. I know exactly why, and it was unfortunately but undeniably me who was at fault, but... ouch. On other occasions, things have gone very smoothly. There are things in your Emacs that I did. Not many, not big, but they are there. Look, they are highly skilled, highly knowledgeable, committed volunteers doing \*extremely\* specialized work for nothing, work that we all benefit from, more than most of us will ever be able to repay. Work out how you would feel if this described you and then, if you think you'd still want to hear about it, go ahead. They absolutely do want to hear good, well-founded, well-described, well-thought-through, actionable, up-to-date bug reports and feature requests. That is one way we can all contribute, and contributing is something I can whole-heartedly recommend. It changes your whole feeling about the software: you are no longer a user only, you are now also a contributor, even on a very small scale. It is now \*your\* software in a way that it wasn't before. You no longer think of the creators and maintainers as "them", but instead as "us". That, for me, is the true beauty of software freedom.

> Are you dumb? did you not read properly? Did I not provide any thoughts? Wow, *spectacular* irony overload.

> alacrity/kitty just blows those emacs terminals out of the water How so, I'm genuinely curious? I installed alacrity a while back but couldn't find anything interesting/useful to me but it did seem marginally prettier. The [features](https://github.com/alacritty/alacritty/blob/master/docs/features.md) they list are pretty much all things I already have with terminals in Emacs.

> Could you please kindly elaborate more on what those small tasks are? *I* am really curious what the *larger* tasks are. What do you do in a terminal that's a bigger task that is helped by features that only the best terminal emulators have?

I would remove: News Therapists Games Mail Web Calendar And lots of unused code. I would enhace the shell modes a little to be more sophisticated terminals and issue commands from there. Some programs return non-ascii non-control stuff, and handle signals, and there's no consistent support for them yet I would also remove the DOS port. Is old and no dos systems in real conditions can use it. 4mb for a dos program is almost unfeasible. I would enhance the project mode

>Emacs is zipped a 50mb package. Wait, I thought it was supposed to almost fit in 8 mb of ram?

Not having to worry about commands having an extremely long output and freezing my whole working environment is a nice feature. :)

This has been removed, as it is not very civil; please attack ideas, not people.

It's not about the features. It's how they perform. My hardware specs isn't impressive, only the RAM and CPU is decent. ansi-term, eshell, vterm; all of them are laggy, jerky, dawdling. But I get extremely smooth terminal emulation experience with st and any other external terminal emulators. Maybe your PC is a beast, and that's why you don't notice any difference.

Someone = Emacs. Emacs's Emacs.

No one really talks about the good stuff, even if they do, it gets dissolved in the dark. It's the bad stuff that gets pointed out. I'm not a saint. face **reality** 10000 and more good things have the potential to be overshadowed by 1 bad thing. Negativity is that powerful. If you deny this, then you're delusional and in denial with reality.

It was never about saving few megabytes on my disk. It was about the idea of never implementing stupid shit like games and doctor in emacs just to showcase what it's capable of. It's main premise is editing text and it sucks terribly at it. LOL But it excels at many other things which are just not possible on other text-editors like vi/vim/nvim. I'm not gonna downplay that.

Where did I mention an electron app bro? Additionally, Why all of you are assuming I care about disk space. Thickheaded much? The terminals would have been the best thing if it ran smoothly on a potato PC like mine. emacs is smooth & snappy for me only because of the configuration I did. But not the terminal emulation. It's tragic. Go try out st terminal from the suckless guys and come back. It's not about features. It's about simple, clean & elegant software/code that does what it's supposed to do and does it extremely well.

This has been removed, as it is not very civil; please attack ideas, not people.

That's not really fiction: what was TECO at it's time? "An editor" in a desktop environment like we intend today for "editor" or the desktop environment to write, edit, read, run code in, the UI users use all day ? That's is a desktop IMVHO. Certainly Xerox SmallTalk workstation with their Tioga editor at that time were more like actual desktops, same I/O (screen, mouse, keyboard), same physical form (a case + a screen on a desk) vs a big wardrobe + a dedicated desk-console, printer for I/O etc. Another tech, price and time. Years later when ZMacs arrive it was the LispM desktop, again the editor in normal terms, not in today's one. Similarly more recent Plan 9 ACME "editor"... Plan 9 have a floating windows desktop concept and a unix root so it have a dedicated terminal emulator, but what are all apps (GUIs) beside the terminal emulator if not ACME instances? Even today, with EXWM Emacs can be a classic desktop bolted on modern system. I see no fiction, just a short descriptive summary of a not-so-small in IT terms timeframe to clear why is a nonsense what many do comparing Emacs to VSCode and co.

It's not so much my hardware is powerful (though it's a decent laptop), it's that since I have Emacs, my needs for the terminal are few and minor because it's rarely the best tool for the job when there is Emacs. If something has a lot of output I don't want it in the terminal, I'll want it in an Emacs subshell buffer. Checking my terminal history, it's almost entirely `rsync`, `systemctl`, `pkill`/`pgrep` and `apt`, and none of them put any stress on the terminal.

I hate this bloat. They pollute my m-x auto completion. And must be slowing the development of emacs to some extent. Ffs the reference file included in the distribution, which is a concatenation of examples of the major packages is more than 30k lines. With at least a few thousands only for cedet. Who even uses cedet nowadays ? I would love a barebone emacs including - the c primitives - basic window/buffer/input management - the elisp interpreter and the relevant major building blocks - a package manager And Everything more, even the kill ring, implemented as packages A truly modular text editor

I wasn't trying to diss the emacs maintainers, far from it. I had no dealings with them since 1994, when I deserted to the vim camp, and only came back to emacs two years back (for org-mode and with evil mode). But as many FLOSS project developers, I can't imagine that they have a lot of time for the attitude shown in the original post :-)

> They absolutely do want to hear good, well-founded, well-described, well-thought-through, actionable, up-to-date bug reports and feature requests. which to original post was?

Oh i agree. I don't expect the devs to bat an eye on this post. It was not meant for them. It's just an informal rant and not a coherent formal persuasion. I wouldn't use that tone and some words and phrases if I was actually writing it for them. I used that Title/Heading to bait people to actually read this post. And it seems like it worked well :) Anyone who thinks this post was meant for the devs to see...Well, I'm speechless. And who in their right mind would persuade them on reddit? laughable, really.

Experienced folks have been hearing this rant since at least the nineties, probably longer. If you look at the history for [tetris.el](https://github.com/emacs-mirror/emacs/commits/master/lisp/play/tetris.el) it has seen only minor updates over its two decade lifespan. These additions don't take up much maintainer time at all. It would actually take more maintainer time to decide together which pieces should be moved out and rehome them on ELPA. But it's nice to hear people complaining about Emacs, because it means people are using it.

Wow. Some intelligent points completely destroyed by an idiot who doesn’t know what a paragraph is and thought it would be good to include some misogynist, immature comments for fun. Don’t you need to get back to the 1960s or some gaming reddit where you can insult more women?

Says the guy who writes one giant paragraph. Kettle. Pot.

>Kettle. Pot. Douche chills every time a wokester employs smug elision.

It's possible, especially with package.el. But it means that the maintainers would have to cope with potentially multiple different versions of Emacs core for different packages. Things like the kill-ring would be hard to pull apart because they are not modularized. But most of the modes could be easily pulled out. Indeed, org-mode has sort of gone that route. In the end, though, it's all work. If you want it done, you are free to contribute. But, I doubt that anyone is going to get terribly excited if all you do is remove tetris.el. The whole "play" directory is 1Mb unzipped with source. The average phone has how much storage?

The sentiment expressed here in the OP and in many of these comments is a sad symptom of individualism with no respect to the collective nature and process of Emacs, as well as the individual free labor given by core Emacs volunteers, maintainers, and the individual free labor of numerous package maintainers. Yes, there are lines of code that you do not personally use, the same to be said of nearly every piece of software you have ever used. But you are not the sole person using the software you supposedly enjoy. If you want the "bloat" removed, Emacs is free software. Have at it.

Contribute the changes you want.

I was waiting for it. Someone actually smart enough to tell me to fork emacs or implying to just build it according to my preferences instead of trying to defend those features with weak explanation & comebacks. This comment right here is what I was expecting from everyone but I guess not everyone is rational and their first instinct would be to defend with baseless logic. I respect your comment and I'm already doing what you suggested. It's just an informal rant and not a formal persuasion directed towards the emacs devs. Those guys have my utmost respect. I just had nothing better to do today and was exploring in emacs and felt like rambling about these useless features, of course, IMHO. And to bait people to read my rant, I used that Heading/Title; if that wasn't obvious.

Again and again. it's not about the **space**. It's scares me to even think of the thought "Hey, let's implement games and doctor in emacs. i'm sure those vim fools will be dumbfounded once they find this out, hehe.". Imagine the thought of implementing something interactive as distracting as games and doctor in a productive and sophisticated software like emacs. LOL, make me laugh more you guys. I'm loving it.

This post makes a perfect example why the emacs doctor should be included. OK, jokes aside, the justification for having shell built in is the same as having email, debugger, pdf reader, etc, built in. You stay within the same environment, keybo commands overlap which aids productivity, you can move kill/yank between windows of different applications. Regarding games, I favour keeping them for historical reasons. EMacs is not just software, it’s a movement.

> And to bait people to read my rant, I used that Heading/Title; if that wasn't obvious. It's obvious, don't worry so much. > It's just an informal rant and not a formal persuasion directed towards the emacs devs. Those guys have my utmost respect. An informal rant does not abstain you from criticism, and if you have respect for Emacs developers I don't see it. Mere token expressions are not respect. What I see instead is ungrateful rambling about there being features that you don't use, which apparently affronts your aesthetic taste. > Someone actually smart enough to tell me to fork macs or implying to just build it according to my preferences instead of trying to defend those features with weak explanation & comebacks. This comment right here is what I was expecting from everyone but I guess not everyone is rational and their first instinct would be to defend with baseless logic. My defense, to put it as explicitly as possible, is for you to look outside of your own individual and narrow assessment of utility and so-called bloat in software. Maybe spend some time developing social skills among Emacs developers and users.

Maybe. I certainly don't feel qualified to reject it out of hand. Of course, there's another approach, which is to fork Emacs ...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I actually started on XEmacs :-)

>and if you have respect for Emacs developers I don't see it. Yeah, I guess I was wrong about you as well. Here you are just like others assuming I meant this post for emacs devs and disrespected them. If I meant it for them, then I would have emailed them with formal and correct grammatical structure in a coherent & cohesive manner; not on a trash site like reddit. Bravo, nevertheless, I'm again speechless. I'll just say this. Improve your comprehension and learn to read between the lines :)

They did remove the Zippy the Pinhead quotes a while back though :)

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No worries bro! So what you are saying is: once the games are removed the terminal becomes faster? Nice!

* Atrocious source code that rivals that of vim not vi/nvim. * Dyed in the wool defaults & aesthetics that pushes away most as in 99.9% of new users, even the users who has been using Linux and BSDs since the dawn of time. You realize how impatient and "Judge by looks" these new generation folks are? * Obsolete modes. You want more? I'll keep adding it. Okay bro? >No worries bro! So what you are saying is: once the games are removed the terminal becomes faster? Nice! Pretty narrow perspective you got there buddy. You wouldn't be saying that if you ever maintained a software you loved/liked. I would be pretty pissed if my house was filled with useless ancient materials that's not even worth of looking and has no substantial value whatsoever just because the boomers thought it would be cool to preserve it. I would toss that shit without a second thought.

Given that you are a software and open source specialist get your hands dirty and show those emacs folks how it is done! That is the beauty of open source… I am certain they will be grateful once they see your slick code :-)

Nice comeback this time. Definitely better than most people out here. Talking about contribution, I don't feel like contributing to a software where it's community thinks that games should be kept in a productivity software. The mindset of you guys scares me to no end & I would rather get eaten alive by a shark.

And again it is back to the games … isn’t there a game in chrome? Where you run with a little dinosaur through the desert? Even the guys at Google don’t know how to write software :-( Seriously though: I am sure there are things that could be improve (like everywhere) but to fetishised about „leanness“ where it does not matter is mad …

I want this too, and I also dislike all the garbage in my M-x completion. I would like something similar to what the Linux kernel has with "make menuconfig" where you could pick and choose what built in lisp packages you build into your pdumped Emacs. I think an ambitious Emacs "distro" will eventually do this, and rip out a bunch of the garbage in the name of minimalism.

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." William Shakespeare.

It's one thing to have a controversal oppinion, another to think that your requirements must be universal and everybody with other oppinion MUST be very old or stupid. For gods sake I could call you boomer for using a PC with keyboard instead of a Smartphone only as most young people do these days. Also I could throw one thing back at you to get some point of your nearly hateful rant, you mention suckless tried there stupid browser surf on 2 netbooks and they were much slower than the with python written therefor bloated qutebrowser. The existence of this games and this console besides people have good reasons to like them, even if they would not exist besides having more keywords in the command search tool, and disk space which you already admited that you don't care have zero disadvantage, if you don't like them just don't use them problem solved.

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As an upside to this post, I actually did what I've never done before in years of using emacs and played some of the games. Snake is a bit laggy, but the tetris port is actually quite serviceable, better than any of the terminal clones I've played, better than some GUI versions. Not as good as the NES or GB versions, but perfectly fine for a boring meeting or a five minute break every once in a while. Thanks OP for teaching me the value of emacs "bloat".

Could you provide your system specs without undermining it just because you wanna prove my point wrong? Weird, who in their right mind would play games in emacs, even for a break or a boring meeting, clearly only you. Seems like you have never played a decent game in your life; because even wild animals, not just house pets, refuses to eat trash food what they we're previously eating after having a taste of tasteful food/meal. Again this bloat, why don't you read the first para of my post? I only emphasized on bloat/BLOATED to bait gullible people like you to read this post. And apparently, my bait worked well. Infact, it worked so well that even it dwarfs the premise of what emacs' is marketed at. A ***text-editor*** which again, sucks incredibly at compared to vi/vim/nvim at ***text-editing.***

When did I ever mention that I use chrome? I use lynx & ***librewolf when necessary***. Besides, I can watch YouTube from the terminal with the program ytfzf by pystardust on github. But you guys most probably don't know about these nifty programs like lynx and ytfzf since y'all stuck in the bubble of emacs; doing everything and doing most of those things in the worst way possible. For example, to add more salt to the burn, the trash ancient **web browser** in emacs. Do you want a browser that **is ancient** but **still** does one thing **and** does it extremely well? Well, use ***lynx***. ***lynx***, which is the oldest text-based terminal web browser in history that is still being maintained and developed. Unlike the trash built in emacs browser. Thank you for reminding me, I'll add that to the original post. I'm having quite fun tearing apart you guys' clueless & idiotic comments.

Just a word of advice. You're visibly starting to unhinge. Instead maybe try to reflect and maybe you will learn something from this experience. >Again this bloat, why don't you read the first para of my post? I only emphasized on bloat/BLOATED to bait gullible people like you to read this post. This is some of the saddest cope I have ever read. But keep on telling yourself that if it makes it easier. The fact however is that your original post reflected none of this "baiting". But after you realized that people weren't receptive to your well reasoned post about "bloat" and how you liked emacs but it really should be more like suckless, you've now shifted your strategy to out-right attacking and insulting commenters and act like shitting on emacs was your plan all along. You're not fooling anybody and with this sadly have lost even that last half of a leg you stood on.

LOL, that's all you can come up with? There's many, many things where emacs excels at and triumphs over vi/vim/nvim. You want me to add that list to this already ginormous of a post? My tone on this post is getting more & more offensive because of all of your biased and pretty much irrational/emotional comments that I'm getting. Instead of admitting that "Yeah, it's pretty stupid of us to even think about adding & maintaining features like games & doctor in a productivity software like emacs. But we're intending to keep it and maintain it as long as possible.", I get weak & pathetic comments about disk space, disrespecting emacs devs, toxic & insulting post (which it is), only mentioning preservation just for showcase purposes. Who will see your ***deserted ancient museum*** that emacs will soon become if all boomers are dead and all the gen Z's uses vscode and vim?

You mentioned suckless in your post, part of the suckless tools is the surf browser mr. "Smartass"! I don't get how you are not banned for calling people boomers and the short form of asshole -> ass.

Nice rant, you should consider seeing the `M-x doctor` :-)

> just down voting like a pathetic spineless coward Really? Downvoting because you are complaining about downvoting.

So it was for your amusement, and not the benefit of anybody who might do something about it or read responses to what you are saying. Ok, be amused! How and why you use tech is a journey, looks like you are at the point where you have discovered absolutist perspectives on how computation should be used--great! Nice of you to share an opinion. Excellent screed--raucous rant and all that. Full of sturm and drang to stir the pot, well done! You can't predict what people will do or why, presuming you can and under what circumstances is fairly narrow minded to be honest. Go ahead and use acme or sam or ed for that matter--it's the standard editor! Are you bored, or angry and looking for an outlet? Truly, inquiring minds want to know! I get the sense you are trolling, in that case I hope it brings you the amusement you desire for your time.

Who is „you guys“? It seems you use a computer in a very specific way which most people would not like to copy… my advice would be : try watching less YouTube and you may find that this is the true productivity sink in your life :-)

Perhaps OP won’t even read my comment, but giving it a shot anyway. First, I would like to ask you which text editor do you use? I use macOS and using emacs in it is just a pain in the ***. I love the concept behind it, I love org mode, I love the amount of control you have over it, but Stallman hates macOS and dropped support to it, so it just behaves ver very very poorly in Mac. So I have to go back to the awfulness of electron editor, of the which vscode is the only one that is up to the challenge (vscodium to be precise). Second, just agree. As a new user the more I delved into emacs, the more I wished I could make it simpler. Games, a whole email client inside of it, and who knows what else is just something that should be removed in this day and age. Emacs became known for being a powerful text editor, so it should now focus on keeping doing that, and drop all the bs.

I might some day. To my understanding this would be to a good extent just tweaking the Makefiles to remove unnecessary modules

It looks like someone didn’t like my joke. Lol

That's a fantastic way of looking at it ! :D

Honestly, I don't even feel like arguing with you lot; there's no point. All you lot see is my offensive tone not the actual points that I made; pretty sensitive you lot. I guess it comes with old age, hmm. The post got offensive just because of your stupid valueless comments. Wanna defend the stuff I mentioned? Go ahead. Have fun playing games, surfing web, using multiple aliases to do the same thing, getting confused by obsolete modes, and many more.

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>Who is „you guys“? Ans: Almost everyone who is commenting trying to defend their stupid emacs ancient per-historic features/artifacts with no sound logic behind it. Is that too hard to comprehend for you? Do I need to spoon feed a boomer like you every little detail about emacs' negative parts, that you're pretending to be oblivious about, who will soon die with his editor? Instead of coming back at me with a pathetic stereotypical old man joke about social media (which is yt), why don't you genuinely answer me the questions that is provided below. Did you ever used the emacs web browser? What web browser do you currently use? What type of web browser do you prefer, GUI or text-based? Did you even know that you can browse web extremely quickly & efficiently on the terminal? >It seems you use a computer in a very specific way which most people would not like to copy. It's baffling to me that you have the nerves and audacity to talk about most people when you're using ***emacs*** and trying to do everything possible in it while sucking incredibly at it. Why are you making a fool of yourself? Most people would piss at emacs at the first glance. Unless they're patient, curious, likes to try out new stuff and actually give it a good shot & likes to give the benefit of the doubt.

Boomer? What age bracket are boomers in? 30-90? Are you 18? What open source projects are you maintaining?

>First, I would like to ask you which text editor do you use? * To actually edit-text ***not "write-text" from scratch***, I use nvim (vi if required). To tinker & write documents like github README, and website stuff, I use emacs. Also I use emacs for note taking using the org-roam package. >I love the concept behind it, I love org mode, I love the amount of control you have over it * I also love org-mode, org-roam, magit, DIRED ***(there's also a new package called DIRVISH, which ports the goodies from file managers like ranger, lf.)***. I can provide you the link if you want. There's many more stuff that I love about emacs. >but Stallman hates macOS and dropped support to it * I can see why Stallman hates macOS and dropped support for it **XD**. I don't like macOS either, have used it, and it's pretty restricting not gonna lie. Though, I might give it another chance now, since, something is rising and that is ***Asahi Linux***, which is a project that aims to port Linux to newer Apple Silicon-powered Macs. >As a new user the more I delved into emacs, the more I wished I could make it simpler. Games, a whole email client inside of it, and who knows what else is just something that should be removed in this day and age. Emacs became known for being a powerful text editor, so it should now focus on keeping doing that, and drop all the bs. * I completely agree with you. Games, web-browser, doctor; these things should definitely be removed 100% or at least removed from the default build configuration without any options. If anybody wants that stuff then they could be given the option like ---> **./configure --with-games --with-doctor --with-nonsense** (here I am talking about building from the master branch) * I did not try the email client built-into emacs, ***yet***. I will try it soon. I have used mutt & neomutt on the terminal and that thing is a godsend. But I reckon that even the email client in emacs is trash, although, I can't say with any certainty for the time being. So I'll give the email client the benefit of the doubt. emacs is not even qualified to be called bloated if you just look at its download and installed size compared to the value it provides. But once you open it up and explore it, oh boy, that thing is of cosmic proportions. It clearly overwhelms most new gen users. It certainly did overwhelm me for the first week; I have been using emacs for only over a month. The original post's perspective came from a new emacs user, which I am, and not from ancient pre-historic era that most of the boomers that use emacs.

Why should I answer to someone who clearly didn't bother to answer my questions even though I answered his initial question(s). Why even try to outsmart me by answering questions with more questions? ***do better***.

Sure mate. I'll consider seeing **M-x doctor** for some comedy, while **you** go to the ***real life doctor*** just to hear that you're diagnosed with ***Cancer*** & ***PTSD***, as a consequence of trying to do everything in emacs >!and tragically failing at it while doing so. Yes, emacs does almost everything and sucks at most of those things, naturally,!< just because you don't wanna leave your so called **emacs environment** that might have the potential to critically injure your inherently trash workflow, which has the polar opposite characteristics of glass, ***but***, marvelously aligned with what comes after you drop one. Cheers!

Uhm, no one is trying to outsmart you mate. You seem very confrontational… emacs build in browser is great for documentation etc. but in an professional context it is hardly possible to only use text based browsers. Often you have to use web interfaces that do not allow for that. Besides, large parts of the web are designed to be used with a full fledged browser. You kind of shoot yourself in the foot by note using one…

>You seem very confrontational * Continuously judging me. >Often you have to use web interfaces that do not allow for that. Besides, large parts of the web are designed to be used with a full fledged browser. You kind of shoot yourself in the foot by note using one… * So let me judge you as well. You seem 99% blind. Why? allow me to not only spoon-feed you, but also, hold your hands as I walk you through that dark path that only you can see. > I use lynx & ***librewolf when necessary.*** Go and read the parent comments again blind old-man. Again, here comes the spoon-feeding part -> **when necessary** was written to mean that I only use libre-wolf when I desire the need for GUI elements. You should receive a standing ovation of the highest caliber for being such an i.......***hmm***. let's not go overboard, shall we? * Clearly you have not ever heard about lynx or libre-wolf **(which is a fork of firefox, or as I've recently taken to calling it, furryfox.)** * So now you tell me, who shot himself on the foot here?

Interesting. I only explicitly said -> dwm, st, suckless. Other suckless tools I use which I didn't mention in my original post-> dmenu, slock. You are assuming that I use all of the suckless software without even explicitly saying so. >I don't get how you are not banned for calling people boomers and the short form of asshole -> ass. I thought the church of emacs preaches the following slogan -> ***Free as in speech, and free as in beer***. So am I not allowed to speak my mind? emacs was created in the land of free speech on top of that after all. Your ego is so fragile that an urban word as mild as **boomer** and **smartass** hurts you to no end, that you have to explicitly point it out to me that how I'm not getting banned. And here you are using reddit. ***Subarashi desu ne, hontou ni.***

This has been removed, as it is not very civil; please attack ideas, not people.

This has been removed, as it is not very civil; please attack ideas, not people.

This has been removed, as it is not very civil; please attack ideas, not people.

> I thought the church of emacs preaches the following slogan -> Free as in speech, and free as in beer. > So am I not allowed to speak my mind? emacs was created in the land of free speech on top of that after all. Let me be very clear. I've removed multiple comments from you for being incivil. This forum is bound by many rules, including ones of basic civility. I will remove your comments as long as they continue in this fashion, and will ban you if it continues. You really don't need to be so much of a jerk to get your point across.

Okay sir. It's not like I intend to be offensive for the sake of violence and chaos. I'm just replying to those people since they can't handle criticism and mild urban words; Furthermore, it's evident that their comments provide no value or improvements regarding to my original post. They only comment to bash me thinking that -> * I only care about disk space. * I disrespect the emacs devs. Very few people have actually commented & suggested valuable thoughts & ideas. Cheers!

Why not make a list of what emacs is extremely good at instead?

> It's not like I intend to be offensive for the sake of violence and chaos. But you are doing it, intentionally. > Furthermore, it's evident that their comments provide no value or improvements regarding to my original post. See, this is … rude. > It's sarcasm btw, if you/you're can't/too old to realize. This is rude. > irrational and biased comments that I keep getting from insanely sensitive people which holds no substantial value whatsoever. This is rude. Anyways, thanks for responding; you've convinced me to remove the post!

This has been removed, as it is not very civil; please attack ideas, not people.

Attacking an idea is like critiquing the music being blasted by passing cars. It's the drivers, not the music, that's the problem.

“Blind old man” - yeah, let’s hate the elderly and disabled … well done.

There's a difference between saying "that idea is bad" and "you are a bad person because of that idea". That's the distinction intended by that phrase.

Children believe, correctly, that there are stupid questions, and that stupid people ask them. It's not until they've been brainwashed by participation trophy culture that they disassociate bad ideas from their obstinate purveyors. Perhaps a better forum rule would be "You're allowed two replies max to disabuse someone of his idiocy," after which one must content oneself to the profit potential of a fool and his money. Speaking of which, I'm at my 2-reply limit.

> participation trophy culture :eyeroll: Anyways, yes, some people are stupid, and sure, there are stupid questions. And that has nothing to do with the rules for how people should behave in this forum. Direct or even cleverly-worded insults of people are not allowed, here.

Gonna have to wait until asahi gets 100% control of everything in the Mac to go and finally be able to use a full Linux environment. Once there I guess emacs will be better. And sure, please give me the link to play with it a little, as much as I can given I work on macOS. I am guessing that something that could benefit emacs and give life back to it is first giving that configure option you talk about, but also renewing its implementation. Perhaps building the lisp interpreter inside rust. As an example, there is the Warp terminal. It is the best damn terminal I have ever used. It is fast AF, looks modern, and has an almost perfect native integration.