Ergonomic Keyboards

Hello, I'm wondering for a friend if anybody knows of a great ergonomic keyboard while using emacs, particularly for fast entry for enter, ctrl, and backspace. Thank you and best wishes.

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The keyboard I have now is the Adesso keyboard here: https://www.adesso.com/product/akb-150ub-taa-desktop-ergonomic-keyboard/ But if you're looking for other recommendations, I'm really fond of the recommendations made on the Xah Lee blog: http://xahlee.info/emacs/emacs/emacs_best_keyboard.html

uhk.io is my holy grail emacs keyboard and I love it, especially with the client for remapping keys and the key cluster module for additional thumb-accessible modifiers.

I've been a long-time fan of the [Microsoft Natural 4000](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_ergonomic_keyboards#Natural_Ergonomic_Keyboard_4000), which has kept my wrists at a comfortable angle for ... probably 15 years now. When I used to drink, I went through one a year or so, as I spilled drinks in it, but in any case I recommend having a spare on hand. It helps that they're cheap!

This is the holy grail: https://precondition.github.io/home-row-mods Get a small QMK keyboard like a Planck and setup home row modifiers on both sides.

I use a normal QWERTY keyboard but I remap the modifier keys to win, alt, ctrl, space, ctrl, alt, win in this way you can use your thumbs for the control modifier in a quite ergonomic fashion. Also, if you aren't already touch typing AND using modifiers on either sides in a balanced fashion (C-x with right side control and C-p with left side control), you should work on your typing.

Kinesis Advantage 2. I will never go back to a regular keyboard again. All of the keys you mention are on thumb clusters, and it's programmable. They also have a split keyboard that I haven't tried, and a lot of people consider the ZSA Moonlander, but I'm personally very happy with my choice.

Yep, I’ve used a Kinesis Advantage with Emacs for over 20 years.

I've been using an Ergodox for seven or so years, and it's terrific. I have control and alt on the 1.5u keys in the center, so I can use my index fingers for most chords. QMK firmware means you can change the layout however you like.

I feel like any programmable keyboard should be able to be configured to work well with emacs. I personally like having very few keys so that my hands need to move less when typing/navigating. Because I use powerful firmware (ZMK), I still have access to all of the keys that I need. You can take a look at how I configure my keyboard (along with some of my keyboards) here: [https://github.com/jcmkk3/zmk-config](https://github.com/jcmkk3/zmk-config)

I use the Keyboardio Model 01. Definitely see the comment above about home row mods. My additional tweak was turning the (now useless) modifier keys into "C-c", "C-x", and "C-h" (though I still have leftover modifiers). https://shop.keyboard.io/ Although the Model 01 is my favorite so far, I would say any split keyboard with at least 2 easily accessible thumb keys is good. The Model 01's palm key is useful for mousing/navigating in non-Emacs applications but it makes no difference in Emacs.

+1. Got a kinesis advantage and can't stand regular keyboards ever since. Tried an ergodox for travel and it doesn't even come close. The thumb keys and curve really makes it the perfect emacs keyboard.

I use a BoardSource Microdox, which unfortunately has been replaced by a much inferior version of the product, imo. Maybe the original will come back someday, and technically the PCB is open source. I also printed a tented case for it, which was open source. [https://boardsource.xyz](https://boardsource.xyz) It's a 30% split column-staggered board, which I use the Hands Down key layout on. There are plenty of other similar keyboards out there on the market, still. I use 63g Gazzew Bobagum switches, which are silent linears, and I love how easy they are to press.

I specifically designed the Atreus (https://atreus.technomancy.us) to make using Emacs more pleasant, with the modifiers all in easy reach of the thumb keys and parens (for happy lisping) closer to the home row.

Yes, this. Re-map the Home key to Meta and you’re golden with vanilla Emacs (and also switch the left shift and caps lock.)

with the advantage 2 you can set hold mappings, i set a 150ms hold map on pgup and home to ralt and lalt, made the cmd/option keys lcmd and rcmd, and i am liking it so far …. when i can remember that and not hit cmd-w when i want alt-w

im of the opinion that emacs and ergo programmable keyboards are made to go together. as much as emacs supports the "build it yourself, for your needs" approach to your text editor/operating system i think it's also important to design your input system to your needs. im personally a redox user. i go with the following setup for my thumb clusters: lalt ctrl shift shift ctrl ralt super space enter enter space escape top layer is when held, bottom layer is when tapped

I didn't think you could still find those. But I've been using the [peridex 512](https://perixx.com/collections/keyboards/products/11525) which, as far as I'm aware, is a rip off the above mentioned keyboard and also pretty cheep.

https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com is fantastic

Unfortunately I still find one good for me so... In my shortlist I put Kinesys FreeStyle pro just because it have a small two extra columns on the left side, but miss a numpad (though there are external ones, so it's possible to compensate), Cloud Nine C989M sub-optimal overall quality but a bit more keys and cheaper than the Freestyle Edge if backlit is needed/wanted, finally Microsoft ergo, NOT mechanical so a big minus, but at least with a bit of keys. My actual keyboard is Unicomp PC122 (so called IBM Battlecruiser) not because I like it's switch or it's cheap plastic quality but because it have many keys. The main point: I do have a desk, large and free enough to host a decent input toolset. I do not want to run the race of being smaller, so cheaper for the OEM and often expensive for the customer than classic-size keyboards. I do not want to learn 52+ fingers key combos, the most ergonomic and effective for me is just pushing a damn f*** key once, the VERY same thing I do to type damn f*** letters, numbers etc. A key a function. Of course I know I can't have ALL bindings like that, but the more the better and while in the past such keyboards are common nowadays they are miss. Only absurdly priced Marltron do something in that area. Most people do only consume contents, so too few needs a Real Keyboard and OEMs run the race of selling crappy cheapest crap at the maximum price finding any excuse from "portability" to "waste reduction".... Well... Rant ended... My only suggestion for you is the above mentioned FreeStyle pro because it have *a bit* of keys, it's not absurdly priced respect of it's component, it's moderately easy to buy around the world, have ISO and ANSI variants (+ some national ones like french AZERTY or german QWERTZ).

This is what I use on a moonlander, works great in emacs and for everything else too.

When it comes to mechanical or ergonomic keyboards, you should not fall for the "Natural" keyboards. They're not really ergonomic for multiple reasons. You should aim for a wider distance between left and right hand, a ortho-linear arrangement of the keys and if possible a bowl shaped surface to support minimal finger/hand movements. You can furthermore optimize by switching to an [ergonomic layout (which I haven't) such as Dvorak, Neo2 or similar](https://karl-voit.at/2021/01/30/keyboards/). You want to read following pages: * [http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic\_keyboards\_index.html](http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic_keyboards_index.html) * [http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic\_keyboards.html](http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic_keyboards.html) * [http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboard\_kinesis.html](http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboard_kinesis.html) He went for a Kinesis Advantage2. I bought myself a used Advantage2 as well and wrote about my process of decision, pimping it with QMK firmware and configuring the thing so that it got efficient for my use-cases (again): * [https://karl-voit.at/2021/01/30/keyboards/](https://karl-voit.at/2021/01/30/keyboards/) \-> general story about keyboards and the **maximum ineffective** style and layouts we're using. * [https://karl-voit.at/2021/03/21/advantage2-plans](https://karl-voit.at/2021/03/21/advantage2-plans) \-> my initial thoughts on the Kinesis * [https://karl-voit.at/2021/05/23/advantage2-modifications](https://karl-voit.at/2021/05/23/advantage2-modifications) \-> I'm very happy with the QMK mod! Recently, Kinesis announced [the new Advantage360](https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage360/) for summer or so. While being pricey, it offers some advantages over Advantage2 although I'd prefer the cable version with an open firmware. All in all, that's not done with a quick Internet search and a one-time shopping event. You want to learn more about your options. *Ceterum autem censeo* [*don't contribute anything relevant in web forums like Reddit only*](https://karl-voit.at/2020/10/23/avoid-web-forums)

Get you a [dactyl](https://ohkeycaps.com/products/built-to-order-dactyl-manuform-keyboard).

They're readily available on Amazon UK. I've gone through about 15 of them over the years; they do wear out quite quickly if you use them a lot. I've since switched to a Moonlander keyboard.

Very intriguing! I've not seen this site before, nor this approach to it. I'll have to see if I can adapt to this with my moonlander.

Do you have a public key layout with this setting enabled? From reading the site it seems it requires mucking with the firmware a bit to get it to play nice?

I'm not sure, I will go check. I didn't have to muck with the firmware I configured it in oryx directly, I'm pretty sure using tap dance but I will check to confirm. Edit: it is public here is the link, https://configure.zsa.io/moonlander/layouts/XEZvy/latest/0

Thanks. Despite knowing, uh, a thing or two about key bindings, I do find the way QMK explains away its myriad magic toggles as rather confusing. I've a todo list in my head to try and turn the entirety of QMK's "C preprocessor macro magic" into something you specify with a simple graph of edges and vertices that represent transitions between different keys, layers, modes, maps, tapping, holding, etc. --- seems like a more logical way to express this.

I use a Planck, and have all my modifiers on my thumbs.

Has anyone tried this with a regular keyboard? I'm not in the US and the mechanical keyboard market is astronomically expensive in my country. Even the cheapest ones cost several hundred moneys.

Both ergodox & dactyl are quite good: This is the keymap I've used on the ergodox: https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/tree/master/layouts/community/ergodox/qwerty_code_friendly

I built an Atreus from the kit in 2016, and I've been using it as a daily driver since. The design is great for Emacs keybindings. My only issue is that for `C-p`, I tend to hit "p" with my ring finger instead of my pinky; I'd like to build a custom v2 with the right-most row moved down a little.

I've also used Microsoft Natural keyboards for about twenty years with Emacs, most recently the 4000. I only use modifiers with my left hand and type with three fingers on my left hand and mostly just one on my right hand and manage 80-90wpm with my hands flying all over the keyboard. I think that they are a good choice if you want something a bit ergonomic that's still similar to a normal keyboard. I bought myself an Ergodox EZ over nine months ago and have found learning to touch type using Colemak DH with home row mods to be incredibly difficult. I can do about 40-50+ wpm in the online typing tutors but doing so still requires so much of my concentration that I can't think about what I'm supposed to be working on at the same time. I've probably barely managed to write this message at 20wpm. I can't afford to just switch over for work, so I've tried using the Ergodox for everything outside work. I've an awful lot of muscle memory where my fingers just do what I want to do without explicit thought, both in Emacs and in my Window manager. The difficulty discourages me from even using a computer outside work, which is rather less than ideal. I keep deciding to give up, but then I remember how much less effort it is to touch type and want to persevere. Maybe I'll get there in the end!

A Moonlander is absurdly expensive and takes a month to get used to, but I love mine completely. You can configure how you like.

I use a ChromeBook currently with Emacs in Chrostini, but I use Space2control to make commands a bit easier. Nothing fansy like most here have, but I don't have the money for those ergonomic keyboards.

Per a comment by u/iaeung, I've been using number-row-modifiers configured with [Kmonad](https://github.com/kmonad/kmonad) for almost 3 weeks now. It's worked really well. In the past I tried home-row-modifiers, but I couldn't get the timing right. More recently, I tried having space bar double as the control key, but there were still occasional errors. Maybe my typing speed varies too much (shrug). The number keys aren't used as often as space bar or home row keys, so the danger of invoking a modifier during normal text entry is near zero. (It hasn't happened a single time since I started.) For anyone who can't hang with home-row or space-bar as modifiers, this is worth giving a go. When held: 234 = Alt Ctrl Shift and 789 = Shift Ctrl Alt Adjust as desired.

Awww! I hope for you to be able to soon. Thank you for your help and suggestions. You’re resourceful and that’s a very important skill. Thank you

I have Mistel Baracco MD770, specifically this variant: [https://www.mistelkeyboard.com/products/94f05206cb24bbeeb103e664e89d7b98](https://www.mistelkeyboard.com/products/94f05206cb24bbeeb103e664e89d7b98) Likes: Split design. Has Function keys. Layout is pretty standard. In my model, BT w/ fast switch up to three devices. Can be programmed with no UI/application. Dislikes: Programming it is not very intuitive. You need a Windows machine to update the firmware. Verdict? I have this one with brown switches since October and I have one with blue switches arriving tomorrow :) I remapped control to caps lock and right spacebar. And translate F7 to ESC in Emacs, so I barely use the ALT keys, relying instead on esc/f7. Plus F6 is leader key for my personal bindings, F8 is C-c. With this setup I have reduced chording quite a bit.

You'n me both. My only complaint about the Advantage has always been the lousy function keys at the top, but I actually solved that problem by buying a 9-key speedpad off of aliexpress and programming it to do what I need.

So I had trouble with the F-keys on my Kinesis as well. I've basically worn out the F10 and F11 keys (step over and step into in Visual Studio) and I didn't want to get a whole new keyboard, so I bought a 9-key speedpad off of aliexpress. You can get them for about $30-50CDN depending on how many keys you want, and they're all nicely built, usually with your choice of switches, and many of them are meant specifically to be programmed with QMK. So I've got one layer modifier key in the middle of the other 8, and I use it for a lot of debugging and other things that don't need my hands on them all the time.