Money and Cards

If society is transitioning to electronic money and cards (credit cards, debit cards, ect), then what's stopping anyone from artificially loading a Visa or something and making a fake server of some kind that has the "money" on it? Basically, how hard is it to counterfeit money on a card? It would leave a trail and be impossible to use, but I wouldn't think its impossible to do so.

A lot of places only take certain cards so I'm assuming there is a white list system so you cant just make up a fake credit card company. To do something like that someone would have to hack the card readers to accept the fake credit card which would leave behind a trail of evidence.

>>23881 >what's stopping anyone from artificially loading a Visa or something and making a fake server of some kind that has the "money" on it? encryption Told niggas keep it Carmelo, okay? Rolled past Dave, told him "Hello" and "Hey" Me and Cash in something old on 23's, ho Back window says "Mama mel bicho" Skateboarders grind, I grind, too That's why you can catch me in DC shoes I quit the team but believe I'm ballin' Want a verse, put up a stack or quit calling 30's on my Chevrolet, call me super duper Garage like Roots, I got more whips than Kunta Riviera sitting on the Bulls' best hooper Y'all still riding 20's, y'all some Oompa Loompas Doors swang on niggas that got bad behavior My four 15's woke up the neighbors Interior crocodile alligator I drive a Chevrolet movie theater

>>23881 >Electronic banking relies on intricate computer systems that communicate using telephone lines. These computer systems record transfers and ownership of funds, and they control the methods customers and commercial institutions use to access funds. A common method of access (or identification) is by access code, such as a personal identification number (PIN) that one might use to withdraw cash from an ATM machine. >There are various electronic banking systems, and they range in size. An example of a small system is an ATM network, a set of interconnected automated teller machines that are linked to a centralized financial institution and its computer system. An example of a large electronic banking system is the Federal Reserve Wire Network, called Fedwire. This system allows participants to handle large, time-sensitive payments, such as those required to settle real estate transactions. It sounds like banks are a meshnet, so you only get legitimacy by being able to process transactions through the network. There is also a lot of gatekeeping to starting banks, mostly on the judgement of the license granters. That was why crypto was supposed to upset the natural order of finance. Too bad banks bough up crypto using their immense wealth and now tricked normal people into using their banks to "own crypto investments" Now If you do start a bank, I guess it would be easier to do loan fraud or something. https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/banking_12779.htm

>If society is transitioning to electronic money and cards (credit cards, debit cards, ect), then what's stopping anyone from artificially loading a Visa or something and making a fake server of some kind that has the "money" on it? Basically, how hard is it to counterfeit money on a card? The only machines that can create money are the Fed reserve servers, everything else needs a account that can be tracked, and needs to use swift payment system if your in the western world. While not a counterfeit guide, a hacker did do a write up on it and how they used the swift to transfer money. also it's a bit dated and may have changed. https://web.archive.org/web/20230731155343/https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/subcowmandante-marcos-hack-back NOTE: this post if for fun only pls don't crime it's bad.

I'm more just wondering why there is such a monopoly on credit and debit cards. Why so few companies and why is it that there isn't some sort of standardization so any credit card can be accepted at any business? >>23886 The alternative to banks are Credit Unions, but unfortunately some credit unions are no different than a bank. But at least they are less prone to predatory loan practices.

>>24152 Visa the main credit/debt card company patented the card system and made deals with banks, (that's where the 1-3% transaction fee goes) There are other's but most don't accept them because their fees are higher and the cost of accepting them is a pain compared to visa. That's why all banks usually issue visa because everyone accepts them and other are usually restricted to international or customer specific (like air miles) apple and google tried to break it with apple pay and google pay apps, but so far no luck. In order for a new payment system to work, you need someone else to accept that payment system.

>>24153 Apple Pay and Google Pay are doing alright in Japan along with all of Japans more native companies for digital and contactless payments. So maybe it will happen some time. Im mainly concerned how credit card companies have gotten in the business of censoring the internet, a very dangerous game and I don't want them to have their filthy hands on my money.

I know this is getting off topic but seems a waste to make a whole thread for this. What does /sec/ think Taler as an alternative to debit cards and Apple and Google Pay to bypass those companies? Is it actually relatively privacy friendly or not? It says it is no good for illegal transactions, is that just because of how it works on the receiving end? Anyone tried this? https://taler.net/en/features.html

>>23881 >what's stopping anyone from artificially loading a Visa or something and making a fake server of some kind that has the "money" on it? The card reader doesn't contact your bank it connects to visa and then visa checks with the bank. Getting visa to accept your fake server into the payment network is the gap in your plan. >>24150 >The only machines that can create money are the Fed reserve servers That's not strictly true, commercial banks can create new money through fractional reserve banking >alice deposits $100 >bank lends out $90 to bob >alice withdraws $100 >now there's $190 in the economy instead of $100. >>24152 >I'm more just wondering why there is such a monopoly on credit and debit cards. You can't just start your own bank or payment processor you need permission from the government. Regulations don't exist to protect the people from evil corporations, regulations exist to protect evil corporations from competition. >>24155 >What does /sec/ think Taler It is private only for the buyers. The system is deliberately designed so that vendors are auditable by tax authorities. It's peak current year leftism. If you want israel to stop bombing children in palestine then don't help the government collect more taxes.

>>24161 If anything having businesses able to be properly audited it means they dont have extra money to use for lobbying. Besides all the big companies avoid paying taxes through tax write offs. Im just saying Taler seems actually realistic to be a normal payment method because it isn't designed to skirt around the law so it wont get derezzed and that seems better than using credit/debit cards if you use a good credit union instead of a bank to store your money or you could store it in crypto to transfer to Taler to pay if it also converts that crypto to normal currency.

>>24163 Lobbying is an operational cost, why does the money necessarily need to come from tax evasion? If businesses are fully audited then they will just use clean money to do it. I dont like that you need a powered on device to be able to use money. At current day its effecively optional in most places (though India tried to go all digital once I think), so you would be fuarrrking over lower classes even more. Imagine if there were only a few phones deemed 'safe' enough (with enough antitampering) to run this digital wallet (against GNU principles but I imagine hacking new clients would piss glows off). It would basically become a requirement to live to buy a phone, you could not even beg or steal without one. Weve seen with the medical industry how such a situation turns out: soykafty service for insane prices. Probably a subscription fees thrown in, call it 'digital rent'. I have never heard a proposal for going cashless that wasnt horrid.

Yes, for in person purchases I always prefer cash money but these days some things you can only get online and I just cant stand the thought of supporting debit/credit card businesses that are hostile to people like us and are quite predatory in practices and selling data without consent.

>>24161 >The system is deliberately designed so that vendors are auditable by tax authorities. That's because they want it to actually be usable for businesses that pay their taxes. It would be great if businesses didn't pay their taxes but realistically most of them do. If you're going to reject a better payment system because it does not meet your unreachable standard, you're never going to be able to anonymously buy groceries (since cash is actually quite traceable). Anyway, auditability is an optional feature and the operator does not have to expose its auditable data to the state. For instance, a darknet market could use it as a faster, more private, less fraud-prone method of payment than the blockchain. >>24166 >Lobbying is an operational cost Only in places like the US where bribery is legal.

>>24168 cash is the gold standard for anonymity. Sure its susceptible to targeted attacks, but if you have someone stalking you it doesnt matter what method you use, you are exposed regardless. There is no database with the ids of all the banknotes I have, so it cannot be blanket tracked. Any device or real identity based system is objectively worse for privacy. You claim that Talos is 'better' than cash but provide no reason. Multi-billion dollar corpos dont evade taxes by not recording cash transactions, they do it through legal loopholes and loobying. So it will not recover any significant amount of tax evasion supposing it replacea cash.

>>24168 I know some currencies have identifier numbers or could have finger prints on them but Im not aware of any system that actually tracks this money beyond when money is stolen from a bank or winds up in a crime and dusted for prints. What are you talking about?

>>24170 >cash is the gold standard for anonymity. Both monero and taler are better options. >There is no database with the ids of all the banknotes I have, so it cannot be blanket tracked. Serial numbers of bills are checked when you withdraw from the bank and when you deposit to the bank, which is realistically where the vast majority of bills begin and end their life cycle of use. The vast majority of stores just take your money and put it in the bank the next day, meaning that the next day a record of where you shopped and how much you spent there can easily be derived from the bank databases. Unless you're using cash in a very particular way, your cash spending habits are easily trackable with a dragnet. >You claim that Talos is 'better' than cash but provide no reason The blind signature scheme means that there is no way for anyone to provide verifiable proof of where or when you spent your money. Plus using cash on the internet is impractical and slow. >Multi-billion dollar corpos dont evade taxes by not recording cash transactions, they do it through legal loopholes and loobying. So it will not recover any significant amount of tax evasion supposing it replacea cash. Cool, I don't care. I only care about having privacy for buyers.

>>24168 wouldnt moneros privacy by default setup be better? a business can provide the view key if they are being audited, and otherwise give receipts like for cash.

I think your question gets at the actual content of the matter -- that money today doesn't "really exist", but is a kind of socially engineered thing through-and-through, whose value and distribution is enforced by the state and its close partners, the private international banks. In this sense we already live in Socialism, even if political thought has not caught up to this fact. AS https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/optimal-amount-of-fraud/ identifies, though, there are still limited levels of fraud you can do. A very simple thing is to exploit credit card returns and fraud negotation in order to get free stuff, although this can potentially tarnish your personal creditworthiness. I could be mistaken but I don't think attacking the actual payment processes in any kind of MITM is possible or worthwhile.

>>24177 It is more private for businesses, sure. However, I still think taler+monero is preferable to plain monero, because the confirmation is very quick and does not bog down the blockchin with many small transactions.

>>24179 how would monero + taler work? does any service/marketplace/business even use taler?

>>24163 >Im just saying Taler seems actually realistic to be a normal payment Except your system is useless without sellers and you are deliberately soykafting on sellers by design and treating them like the enemy so why should they adopt your system over a peer-to-peer system like bitcoin where everyone is equal. Your rinky dink open source project of autistic commies have no power to compel people to use a payment system you deliberately designed to be against their interests. That's what's wrong with Taler. >>24168 >Only in places like the US where bribery is legal. Every country with government mandated masking/vaccinations was lobbied into it by pharmaceutical corporations. Every country screeching about "helping" ukraine and israel were lobbied into it by weapons corporations. This is why it's so retarded to talk about billionaires evading tax, the reason they are billionaires is because of taxation not in spite of it. >>24170 >Sure cash is susceptible to targeted attacks The moment you step into a store there are half a dozen cameras pointed at you analyzing your identifying features and storing it in a database along with every barcode scanned at the till while you were being served. What you probably consider "targeted" attacks are not that targeted anymore. >>24178 >I could be mistaken but I don't think attacking the actual payment processes in any kind of MITM is possible or worthwhile. Nobody deserves to get robbed more than them though, we can all agree on that.

>>24176 if you need a functioning phone its already worse. With cash you just need the paper. >>24181 how is this a weakness of cash? The same thing is true for any possible in person payment system. Its irrelevant to this conversation.

>>24181 >Except your system is useless without sellers and you are deliberately soykafting on sellers by design and treating them like the enemy so why should they adopt your system over a peer-to-peer system like bitcoin where everyone is equal. >Your rinky dink open source project of autistic commies have no power to compel people to use a payment system you deliberately designed to be against their interests. This may be news to you but laws exist and most businesses will try to follow laws to avoid getting problems. They dont want to be audited so they will do what they can to avoid it.

>>24184 NTL, but the other problem with it is that authorities don't give a fuarrrk about cringing preemptive compliance efforts especially when they still disrupt the status quo and possibly make more work for them. People I see being enthusiastic about this online seem entirely unaware and unfamiliar with the many, often sincere efforts of various cryptocurrencies to do just this, and how those have been dismissed and ignored by financial regulators who go after them anyway because they hate decentralization and anything that isn't their existing "we have finance at home" centralized systems, they are not looking for any sort of compromise. The whole concept of Taler runs on bank wires ffs, as soon as it gains any notice it's directly vulnerable to getting shut down and it doesn't matter how much Taler people want to suck the government's dick. There is zero chance this becomes a way for companies to bare their necks to the law because the law obviously isn't going to signal approval of it. Anyone with even cursory involvement in cryptocurrency could tell them this won't work.

>>24185 > they hate decentralization Yet the schooling system and police in the US are decentralized to some degree. Crypto isn't decentralized in reality. It is all mainly owned by a few people. Monero is even less so decentralized than Bitcoin. Crypto was never created to replace currency, it's a speculative trading asset arranged in a Ponzi scheme design. The creators can pull the plug at any moment they want. > The whole concept of Taler runs on bank wires ffs, as soon as it gains any notice it's directly vulnerable to getting shut down and it doesn't matter how much Taler people want to suck the government's dick Even in the US a seller only has to report purchases over $10,000 but they and credit card companies over report all purchases in attempt to cover their asses. A lot of places sell things that dont even approach that amount. There is nothing about it that would draw attention from authorities because it doesnt break the law even though you could use it that way but really they would have outlawed physical currency decades ago if they really wanted to track everything. Also Bitcoin is literally supported by the government because it is easier to track than banking transactions even.

>>24186 >There is nothing about it that would draw attention from authorities because it doesnt break the law even though you could use it that way but lol I could elaborate on the news events you seem to not have paid attention to but it's clear this project and its supporters are going to have to learn the hard way the same lessons the cryptocurrency community learned. This is unfortunate because it's clear there is an actual interest in privacy and decentralization that could maybe be directed towards efforts that aren't doomed, but oh well, maybe when the system betrays your expectations and you go through the process there will be something to talk about.

>>24180 Instead of having a "market wallet" at your favorite darknet market, they just run a taler exchange. You deposit coins and get taler tokens representing monero. The seller withdraws their monero once the taler tokens leave escrow. From the POV of privacy it is a strict upgrade from the traditional darknet market system, since the merchant's market wallet was always owned by the market in the first place. The devs specifically don't recommend using it at a large scale because they don't consider it mature software yet, even though it's had a professional security audit. >>24181 >Your rinky dink open source project of autistic commies have no power to compel people to use a payment system you deliberately designed to be against their interests. The degree to which it is actually "against their interests" is being vastly overstated here. The actual interests of most businesses is to have a fast, easy, secure way to transfer funds, especially online. That's why they adopted credit card payment systems in the first place, completely voluntarily, even though you might have applied dialectical materialism to deduce that the petit bourgeoisie would never allow a credit card company to charge such ridiculous rates to them. Besides, as has been stated multiple times in this thread, the exchange is under no obligation to actually report any of its data to any authority, and it can also destroy that data. It's free software after all. However most exchanges dealing in fiat currency will want to do so because otherwise they will get derezzed, just like all those buttcoin exchanges without KYC. Let's be absolutely clear here: taler is competing with Visa and ApplePay, not monero or cash, although it has some advantages compared to both even when competing apples to oranges. It is VASTLY better than anything else in its domain that has a realistic chance to catch on. It's free software and anyone can run an exchange, making it anti-monopoly by design.

>>24185 Taler is supported by multiple grants from the EU government. Awful weird of them to support a project that they hate. Why not apply your own doomerism to cryptocurrency? They are trying to regulate monero out of existence, therefore nobody would ever run a fiat<->monero exchange, therefore it is a bad project and should not be developed. Sounds stupid, right? That's because it is. Your entire line of argument is fallacious. >I can't believe your crypto exchange supports WIRE TRANSFERS!!! doomed to fail

>>24189 >Taler is supported by multiple grants from the EU government Fair point, I didn't know that about it.

>>23881 They use blockchain technology like bitcoin, but they make it so that only the government/users can see and control their respective wallets and transactions Also the wallet's seed phrase/private key will only be held by the government, kind of like making an account on an exchange like binance, you have a crypto wallet with all the money, but they can take it because you the customer don't have control of the wallet, unlike a cold wallet on an offline app where you have 100% control of your funds By utilizing blockchain technology it would be impossible to hack money into your wallet from thin air or hack a wallet via public key, so things like double spending are also not gonna work, have you ever seen someone hack a bitcoin wallet and generate money from nothing? mBridge is currently the most popular and biggest blockchain tech currently being used by governments implementing CBDCs rn If CBDCs are implemented properly. you would transact directly via the app, and you would directly be linked with the central bank/federal reserve of your respective currency, and if you wanna buy something locally from the store, you either read a qr code or use NFC Banks, Visa, MasterCard, online banks, etc... would serve no purpose

You can try to hack a bank (eg. Carbanak/Phineas) or the ATM itself (some cool Defcon talks but it depends on the model). There is no "server" you can specify.