/physec/

Lockpicking, locksmithing, physical security and related stuff. This is my first thread on lain, I didn't see a thread here yet so I hope it becomes a thing. Post kits, opens etc.

I'm super interested in this sort of stuff, mostly just for hobby reasons, but I'm really lost on where to start. What makes a good kit? How many tools do I realistically need to open "basic" (pin and tumbler) locks? What should I be on the lookout for when purchasing locks to break?

>>333 I just started watching bosnianbill for fun mostly but recently took the plunge and bought some tools. I can currently open locks with security pins through a combination of raking and single pin picking, but I can't really fully SPP yet. Basic tools you need are tensioners and a few hooks and rakes. I could explain this in a lot more detail but Schuyler Towne has done a fantastic series on this. Not in-depth but it teaches some basics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVSL0liiWoc&list=PLC3226D05523B2970 I currently have pic related. Small diamond: not found a use so far W rake: works great but not really consistent, it either just jumps open after a second or does not work for minutes Hook: I like it but I wish I had more variety than a single one Deforest diamond (every manufacturer has a different name): Love it, my favorite for SPP so far City Rake/L rake: Probably my favorite tool. I can just use this for a few seconds and set all pins and then clean up with the hook like Schuyler does in the series As for locks, if you are in the US the master lock no. 3 is probably the best choice (read: a really soykaf lock). You can open it with basically anything that fits in a lock. The cheaper you go the easier it is to open. Just watch out that you don't get a wafer locks (key has grooves on both sides).

Pick this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JpfkGAuhV8 It's only possible to unlock it because the inside lock is susceptible to bumping. Put a EVVA MCS there and you have a good security.

>>360 I don't get this lock. I can admire it technically but it's a really useless design. Huge, clunky, useless complexity. A simple medium quality disk detainer lock is superior in every way. The thing can also be attacked with foil impressioning besides bumping. https://youtu.be/UGHjW3ZbCT8

>>388 But the design is genial. It's "Huge, clunky [and have] useless complexity" because it's designed for bike sec. You could probably do it for a simple door lock, for example. Again, I think design is fantastic. It's like cheating, just like OTP is for crypto... of course it still susceptible to side channel attacks, but that has a much higher security than most (if any) other thing...

Yay a lockpicking thread. >>333 I bought a Southord 22 piece set as my first set. It had a nice mix of picks and rakes with different tension tools. I'd recommend getting something similar because it gives you a nice mix of tools to play with. If you're in the UK or Europe you should check out https://www.ukbumpkeys.com/ . I get most of my stuff from here and they have a nice blog and some videos to go along with the tools. Also be aware that there's a size difference between your average US lock and Euro lock. If you're in the EU you should look for "Euro Slimline" sets. The tools are slightly thinner to account for the smaller EU locks. >>360 That's a pretty sweet lock. Although, using this lock just means that attacking the locking mechanism isn't feasible. You'd still have to make sure that the lock body and the thing the lock is attached to can't just be cut or broken.

This thread deserve a bump since is something use full to people like us.

Anyone have thought on the JPXS-6 Jack Knife? I've heard good things about it besides it attempting to tall a post hook a standard hook.

Question from someone new to lockpicking, How can I use my skills in daily life? Or what scenarios will it prove most useful?

>>1320 Unless you plan on stealing stuff it's mostly a hobby, could be useful if you lose your keys I guess.

>>1320 you could also start a business as a locksmith I guess. Changing locks isn't hard at all, there's also stuff like cutting keys which isnt so bad, it's getting people into their houses and cars that's the challenge. Think of it like legally breaking and entering.

>>335 Goodstuff

>searched "MIT" >nothing The Document Which Was Formerly Called The MIT Guide to Lockpicking http://www.capricorn.org/~akira/home/lockpick/ Basically, lockpicking is a traditional hacker thing. The only difference is the system being hacked is a physical system, not a digital one, the same hack ethnics. In the 30s, Richard Feynman learned to crack safe to read classified papers during Manhattan Project. In the 60s, MIT hackers started to pick locks for gaining computer/lab access, exploring underground tunnels, etc. And it is the origin of this pamphlet. Some relevant comments for its backstory and history at MIT: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3008447 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7585029 It's glad to see the revival of this tradition, In 2011, two MIT hackers once built a mechanical device with a Atmel microcontroller to crack a safe by brute force searching the entire keyspace. > Combination space optimization is the key. By exploiting of the mechanical > tolerances of the lock and certain combination “forbidden zones”, we reduced > the number of possible combinations by about an order of magnitude. Makes it not only a brute-force attack but a break! xD https://web.archive.org/web/20120305143702/http://www.kvogt.com/autodialer/ https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2011/01/brute-force_saf.html Recently, just last month, this attracted the media attention and the hype, even Schneier reposted it without realizing the prior art he reposted years ago. https://www.wired.com/story/watch-robot-crack-safe/ https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2017/07/robot_safecrack.html Finally, Safecracking for the Computer Scientist https://web.archive.org/web/20170614043743/http://www.crypto.com/papers/safelocks.pdf (crypto.com, no HTTPS, muhhhh the irony).

Actually, locksmiths are the earliest security researchers in the world. Ever heard a story like this? > A company made a system for high security. > A security researcher found a vulnerability. > The company's PR team claimed perfect security and denied the existence of any vulnerability. > The researcher performed a Proof-of-Concept attack in a public conference. > The company started to defame the act of disclosing 0day as an immoral and criminal act, enabling attackers to hack into people's system, controversy raised. > The researcher argued hiding the vulnerability makes a false-sense of security, everyone is vulnerable in the long-run, attackers know more 0days than you. > He fought for his rights for Full Disclosure of system vulnerability. > The company forced to fix the vulnerability, established the principle of Full Disclosure, and a prize was awarded to the researcher. The story, took plain in London, at 1851. The conference was Great Exhibition. The security researcher was an American locksmith, Alfred Charles Hobbs. The system, was a Bramah’s lock and a Chubb detector lock, both known for their secure designs. Full Disclosure, 166 years ago. A.C. Hobbs did this partially for promoting his own lock, not 100% pure research, but still counts one. Picking the Bramah’s Lock for Fun and Profit, anyone? http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/06/great-lock-controversy-1851/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Charles_Hobbs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bramah_lock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chubb_detector_lock > Rogues knew a good deal about lock-picking long before locksmiths discussed it among > themselves, as they have lately done. If a lock, let it have been made in whatever country, or by > whatever maker, is not so inviolable as it has hitherto been deemed to be, surely it is to the > interest of honest persons to know this fact, because the dishonest are tolerably certain to apply > the knowledge practically; and the spread of the knowledge is necessary to give fair play to those > who might suffer by ignorance. > A.C. Hobbs, 1853 ProTip: replace “lock” with system, “lock-picking” with “cracking”, “locksmiths” with “developers”. Locks and Safes. The construction of locks. compiled from the papers of A.C. Hobbs https://books.google.com/books?id=by1bAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false I just spent an hour to put these up, and I accidentally closed by browser window, TWO times, first time I accidentally pressed Control-X (just near Control-V on Dvorak!), and the second time I pressed the “back” shortcut on my mouse. Could you comfort me, Lain?

>>1989 If it is any comfort this is a quality post and definitely in the top 0.1% of posts on this site. I wonder if there was anything along this vein before locks were invented?

I just bought my first lockpick set, how long before I get decent at it?

>>3385 Heh, in my country it is illegal. Godspeed you.

I finally got good enough to pick three out of the four locks I have. Now I just need to get to the point where I can unlock them consistently quickly. The fourth lock is a combination lock with a really tiny keyhole on the back, so it's been hard to get at it. It's weird. One pick is fine for almost any lock, but most kits come with tons of pins. On the other hand, having the right torque wrench is very important, but most kits only come with two or three. (A wrong torque wrench would be a wrench that's so small it rotates inside the keyhole instead of catching, or so big it doesn't leave room for a pick.) I guess selling more picks is cooler?

>>1320 >>1322 It is a useful skill if you ever want to get into being a tow truck operator or a cop too. A friend of mine gets calls pretty routinely just for vehicle unlocks (which is relatively easy), and the dispatcher gives the more labor intensive towing jobs to the rest who don't know how. He taught himself how to do it at a previous job in a junkyard. >>3385 Personally I learned really young (age 3-5) by picking locks with improvised tools around my house and never really got any tools for it. Now that I am much older I probably should pick up doing it again. >>3392 I remember soykafty combination locks on school lockers during my high school years which you could open by simply feeling for what the numbers are. A few were so bad you could open them by simply yanking really hard.

I recently bought a lock pick gun, but haven't had a chance to try it out. Been too busy. Will report back after I have a chance to test it out. >>1989 >>1985 >>335 >>3391 >>3392 Thanks for the information and quality posts. On the topic of lock-picking and hacking, when I took an "ethical hacking" course in college a few years ago, one of our labs was picking locks. The professor brought in a bunch of 2-pin, 3-pin, 4-pin and 5-pin locks, gave us a run down, a torque wrench and a couple of picks and rakes. He also brought in his daughter, who was, idk, 10 years old maybe (I'm not good at telling children's ages), and gave her a bell to ring any time she finished picking a lock. Every thirty seconds or so, "DING!" It was really endearing. And then when we, a bunch of 20-30 year old undergrad and grad students, started trying, she made fun of us for taking too long.

>>3462 you had the coolest professor

"Lockpick Tools" are apparently illegal in my state. Are there any sellers who will ship them labeled as something else, or disguise them in some way? It seems Amazon have a few, but it looks like they might ship from china, and I'm worried police might come after me with that on my purchase record.

>>3482 If you look at your criminal code, you may have the ability to have lockpicks as long as its for "fun". So basically keep it at home or carry it with a bunch of locks

What's the cheapest way to get into this hobby? How can I get some tools and some locks to practice on for cheap

There's a few guides here. https://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/anarchy_and_privacy_control/LOCKPICKING/

>>3633 help im american

>>3657 https://toool.us/ has some really good links and resources

My picks is mainly Sparrows and Petersons. Both are great, Peterson are premium though. >>3385 Hard to say, Iv been picking regularly for about 3-4 years and I am still ok. I know people who been picking for less than 2 years and are not at national level. These are talents though. >>3455 You should try a top of the key way tension wrench, I use it almost every time, the tension would be applied on top (If in the US) and gives you a lot more room to move your pick inside and better leverage. >>3482 I think Tennessee is the only state where they are strictly illegal. >>3633 My first kit was something cheap off of Amazon. No point spending more until you know you will pick more. It will also give you a chance to figure out what you like. One mistake new pickers make is get a large kit, you will probably end up using about 3 of the nearly every time.

>>3720 >I think Tennessee is the only state where they are strictly illegal. I don't think so. https://toool.us/laws.html says it's fine in TN as long as it's not for profit and you can buy them in some stores here (I'm in Tennessee).

>>3720 >>3720 is the toool kit >>3689 decent for the price or is there a cheaper better option

>>3725 Seems decent and the price is seems fair. Alternatives: Peterson Sparrows SouthOrd There might be a Toool meetup near you.

>>3725 I paid $20 for my kit at a conference. Straight up the best $20 starter kit on the market (that I'm aware of, and I'm not aware of many)

>>3954

>>3954 >>3955 Thanks, good stuff.

>>3482 If resellers claim it's particularly illegal in your specific state I'd be wary and do a little research before you carry them around. The day you get frisked in the vicinity of a B&E is going to be a bad day. As for buying them? Just buy a kit with a practice lock from china... or try ebay. If something happens in transit the presence of a see through practice lock will probably help you but I'm not an attorney. Lockpicking is a legitimate sport and hobby.

>Want to get properly into lockpicking. >Only locks available are cheap chink locks and ASSA locks. I just wanted a good mid security lock to practice on, rather than jumping down the deep end.

I have a practice lock and have removed most of the pins. There are screws you can remove on top of the pin chambers and I'd like to put some of the pins back but it's so hard to put the pin in, the spring and then try to use the screw to cram the spring back into the pin chamber and tighten it down. Eventually something slips and then the spring jumps out of the hole and flies across the room Any advice? I know locksmiths do this soykaf every day so there must be a better way.

I have an abus 65/40(5pin) and a master 10/30(4pin) The master takes ~5 seconds to open and the abus can go weeks without an open. It's hard to find something inbetween. I got a table vice which helped with most of the abus opens.

>>332 In my fuarrrking country it's illegal to even own lockpicking stuff.

>>4937 Illegal but hardly enforced, just don't go walking around with it in your pocket

>>5011 You don't even know where he lives.

Some Deviant Ollam stuff. Look him up he has a few really great conferences at DefCon and Blackhat USA. Very informative! Keyed-alike systems, master keys and physical security bypassing. "Because the best way to pick a lock, it to bypass it completely."

>>5238 Another one from Deviant Ollam. He also hosts all his powerpoints and videos on his site. deviating.net/lockpicking/slides.html >>5238

Louis XIV was a locksmith. Let him eat cake.

Ive seen some talks by Deviant. In them he mentions a lot of really common US keys. I was wondering if anyone here has some very common keys for Europe (some for UK would be very useful for me, but others might need keys form other European countries)

>>5014 Presumably somewhere in the real world where panopticon is every oppressive police state's wet dream but even the worst among them can't effectively harass every well meaning citizen.

Whats the best lockpick set to buy?

Most of the posts here are about subverting locks... I'm looking more from the other side of things. I need to change the locks at my place. Any recommended brands or models for a deadbolt that doesn't suck?

>>7257 Evva MCS, Schlage, Medeco They're not top tier but they'll keep your typical noob burglar out of the home.

Anyone have that old 'so you want to be a nibber' infographic?

>>335 is bosnian bill really bosnian? that is the real question.

i never successfully opened a lock :(

Hope you lains enjoy some books.

Here is a nice collection of lockpicking, bypassing, safecracking, key duplication, keyed-alike systems, vehicle locks, CCTV surveillance and other physical security type information. Just over 4GB of data: https://mega.nz/#F!SccGCYJT!sK93npi8mtoflU3flUP82w

bump

>>4494 The ABUS 55/40 is a good way to get introduced to spools and it's not that expensive.

i work at a company that does commercial door installation, not my department but i have access to everything. anyways ive been "borrowing" alot of fancy expensive locks that come off these doors and they are seriously nasty to pick. the problem is that the keyways are jagged and extremely angled

These documents are a very great resource. Journal of Physical Security https://rbsekurity.com/the-journal-of-physical-security.html

>>1992 >Before locks were invented Probably the Ugandan key. In all seriousness though, in locations without complex locks most people would used a crossbar for the door which usually had some form of latch-string attached; the string would proceed through a small hole in the door to the outside in order to come and go while it would be withdrawn at night to lock the door. If the string is inside you really do have to just smash it open. It is much more likely that an illegitimate actor would target a window while only a "daylight authority" such as police or soldiers would target the door. Now, as far as the earliest locks are concerned, they appear to have existed almost as long as man has, with samples having been found in Assyrian Ninevah. In fact, by the time of the Egyptians wooden locks were quite common (pic related). Being made of wood, they would naturally be much easier to fabricate with detail for craftsmen of the time. While nowhere nearly as secure against physical entry as a metal lock this would most certainly deter a casual attacker while allowing authorized users easy access.

My house has got a lock where you hold a piece of plastic against the scanner, it checks your "key" and lets you in. Are there any ways of hacking such a lock?

>>14430 RFID tags can be copied. Bigger scanners have bigger range, so you can hide a big scanner in a backpack (with battery), sit next to your target on the train, put the backpack between you so it points at his back pocket for a few seconds.

>>14430 Depends on the system an what you're willing to do to it, and what you have access to. If it's a cheap poorly implemented system it might just check the card's ID number (apparently some don't even check the whole thing). Cloning attacks would work in that case. Better systems I think do some kind of handshake thing, so you can't clone it in the conventional way. There are a lot of potential attacks against the reader itself, the easiest of which just involves pulling the thing off and bridging whatever pins open the door (again, depends on how the particular system works).

>>14413 Don't overcomplicate things. First locks are wooden poles placed against opening door and buried into ground. Second complexity is a crossbar. Windows didn't have glass in them until late medieval times, people used to cover them with wooden shutters for night and winter, crossbars also apply here.

How many of you are locksmiths?

Lockpicks are forbidden to acquire by law in my country so I'd like to order a CNC plotter and cut some lockpick kits that I would then sell to my acquaintances. Your thoughts on what could be better in my plan?

>>15617 what country are you in where lock picking tools are against the law?