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I overheard it a while back from overly loud guy who was telling it to his friend or just someone who was willing to listen. I thought about it and decided to ask everyone's opinion here: We need to hit these austerity fascists where it hurts. They do not care if poor starve or homeless. However what they do care about is their children. If something hurts them they will not be indifferent. For example if public transport bus drivers go on strike they will do nothing as buses is what poor people use and these fat cats all have cars. However if its school bus drivers that go on strike, they will be forced to make concessions as they do not want to see their kids stuck in school, unable to get home. So what do you guys think about that guy's ideas. Do you think its unfair for the kids or do you think its a legit strategy of industrial action?

What the fuarrrk is this low IQ pseudo-leftist babble lmao. >who said that fascists care about children >who said that fascists have the power to do anything >who said that fascists take enough of the population in order to do anything The "fascists" (quoting because it's a very, very loose word nowadays) that him and you are talking about are just 70 year old senile sad men who have a special kind of hate for anybody who's 30 years younger than them, which are CONSERVATIVE NOT FASCIST. ""Fascism"" (quoting because while those people DO identify themselves as fascists, it is nothing more than a hurr durr I hate minorities rather than real fascism) is only a thing in rural, meth-filled, inbred parts of America, and they still take up a very, very small minority of the population Right winger ≠ fascist Conservative ≠ fascist

>However if its school bus drivers that go on strike They still won't care cause they can get their private drivers to pick them up.

>>43693 honestly thread reeks of >pls attack middle class not more ceo's

>>43690 >if its school bus drivers that go on strike, they will be forced to make concessions as they do not want to see their kids stuck in school, unable to get home. think things through mister, these fat cats all have cars. In much of the world shutting down schools would be a service to the children of course. Do it for them!

It's counterproductive to yell at each other among ideological divides if we are one class (the poor bitches) and the ones intentionally dividing us are another (the illuminati faghetthis) Divide and conquer is their rule. They are false flag masters, now even worse with AI. What if we all have more in common than we think?

>>43701 for better or worse the workers of the world are not united and will not unite because there is more that divides mankind than class, and you stand to loose everything, not merely your chains, should you forget this.

>>43692 (You) got it misconstrued, bruv the fascists are the ones who stand to gain from destroying worker's rights, attacking organized labor unions, cutting wages, sending jobs overseas, facilitate the upward transfer of wealth, infiltrating and informing on dissident groups, making sure the poor are desparate enough to make more profits for less pay and benefits, ensuring that direct democracy can't happen... its a very real phenomenon, and having an emotional freakout when you hear the word benefits them because it shuts off your critical thinking skills >>43690 it would honestly only have staying power as part of a general strike or broad multi-sector... they don't care about public school or education, school's closed due to aids for 2 years during plandemmy and they made sure anyone critical of it loses their job. themselves only use education as a gatekeeping tool for class status -- they fly through it while wagies enter debt slavery. no, we're gonna have to think bigger than that

They don't care about their kids, they care about having control over their kids. You take away the things they do for entertainment, you take away their ability to travel, you take away their ability to have sex.

>>43690 One strategy is to threaten to withdraw all cash from savings accounts and collapse the financial sector. The yellow vests did this in France but they could only do that with mass coordination and discipline. We need to think of new tactics. Corpos have gotten insanely good at union busting and keeping unemployment high means they can effectively replace workers who cause trouble. They are also very effective in leveraging culture wars politics and pop culture against union organizers. The average person know has a love/hate relationship with the CEOs. They are greedy and want to be rich but don't like the way the system is run, so they are vulnerable to lolbert brainwashing. They get told unions are bad for wages, that they add bureaucracy etc. deregulation and abolishing taxes (for the rich) is the way to go, and the average glitterboy addicted to podcasts will drink this stuff down like a JAV whore in a bukkake video. Strikes are effective when they are done by workers in critical fields like oil workers or by people who are difficult to replace like software engineers. They don't give a damn about bus drivers because they don't use the bus and the corpo can hold out for longer than striking workers can. With Trump bringing a bucket load of paleo lolberts into office, you can expect labor protections to be stripped too. He praised Musk for threatening to fire striking workers. Its illegal under US law but the Project 2025 people (and a fair number of neolib democunts) want to scrap said laws.

>>43710 >Corpos have gotten insanely good at union busting and keeping unemployment high means they can effectively replace workers who cause trouble. They are also very effective in leveraging culture wars politics and pop culture against union organizers Don't forget the utilization of immigration which imports super low standards people as an effort to increase worker insecurity and division tactics to maintain control I'll say it again even if no one ever listens... there is only one flag that really strikes fear in them. >people who are difficult to replace like software engineers lol, lmao

>>43710 They would just freeze their accounts to prevent that wouldn't they? Also it's worse than you think. I know for a fact shady things were being done behind the scenes people in public dont know about. Unfortunately i dont have the details but it comes from a fed I know indirectly. who quit her job while under Trump's previous administration because of what they were doing being so objectionable. I guess she was too scared to be a whistle blower since she didnt even tell anyone what it was that was so immoral beyond the usual. To make it worse coming up soon is the Real ID requirement for domestic travel used which means people will be held hostage by their states laws unable to escape or visit family and friends in other states.

>>43692 i know im responding to bait, but i want to share an anecdote. when i was much younger, in high school, i was very autistic about the definition of fascists. i would say things like, well actually, the nazis weren't fascists because fascism was the ideology in italy and nazism was the ideology of the third reich. people considered me a racist i feel that if you're going to no-true-scotsman the word fascist you've already lost, OP is calling them fascist because they are authoritarian, as fascist is an acceptable term for "excess authoritarianism" to most people. words have the meaning people give them, unfortunately that means in most contexts you must use the word most people agree on, before other prescriptions about it. for the sake of sanity, though, you might suppose there is a proper definition of fascism - one that makes sense from a philosophically moral perspective, or perhaps has an authoritative relationship with things like peer-review and the scientific method. you might even envision of domain of research on the subject, perhaps one called Fascism Studies. were this academic subject to exist, you might expect them to have an elaborate and satisfying definition and understanding of the subject. you might know that they spend a lot of effort into the culture, economy, politics, spirituality etc. of fascism, insomuch as it refers to the society that exists when fascists have power. something that interests me within fascism studies is the concept of moral hygiene, particularly as it pertains to youth. Fascists cared a lot about the morality of children. This was an extension of their general statements of care for children, their use in propaganda, manifestos. their fetishism of it. The cult of the child is also studied academically. some conservative types may say the kids are too coddled these days, there is a peer-reviewed field under the same institutions that would be criticized for woke by such people. when a set of metrics indicating concern over children were determined, such as hours seen as good amount of time to spend with kids, children's comfort and happiness, etc, it was found that our society from the 1990s to now met an exceptionally high number of them. I'm not saying that giving a soykaf about kids makes you evil, that there is a necessary equivalency between fascism's supposed love of children and our own society's, I'm just stating that if you are a high-iq not-pseudo-leftist then you should probably think about that. >>43697 >>43693 >these fat cats all have cars not the ones whose kids ride the bus. while this is the largest group, it is also the least powerful. >>43703 class isn't an inherent quality like race, sex, etc. its an abstraction (and attempt at explaining) over every quality of oppressed people. this isn't an ideological argument, its a matter of how class scholars define class. >>43708 >school's closed due to aids for 2 years during plandemmy and they made sure anyone critical of it loses their job the covid lockdown ended due to its widespread unpopularity and i would argue unprofitability to wealthy interest groups. "our kids want to go back to school" seems like a common sentiment among the opposition... force those people home with their kids again and who knows what might happen >>43713 >beyond the usual lol >Real ID requirement do me a favor and look up when the Real ID law was first written and what its timeline to implementation was

>>43714 > do me a favor and look up when the Real ID law was first written and what its timeline to implementation was I know it has been delayed a long time but it is still approaching the end of the last extension.

>>43714 like i said, go to africa there authoritarianism doesnt exist and you are free to become the monkey you always desired to be. mf wants to reduce everyone to the same level.

>>43714 Fascism is grinding the cogs to make the machine work harder. National-Socialism is honing the cogs for a better cog-honing machine. I could say soykaf like state-focused totalitarian collectivism vs people-focused totalitarian nationalism, if you prefer, but that's boring and confused. >>43717 >Authoritarianism doesn't exist in Africa Image familiar

>>43697 >In much of the world shutting down schools would be a service to the children of course. Do it for them! Why

>>43713 You can't prevent a bank run by freezing accounts because that would likely make the situation worse. It would spark a panic where other people not involved in what's going on decide to withdraw their cash from their own bank because they don't want to get caught up in a freeze, sparking a potentially bigger bank run and there would be serious consequences to mass freezing millions of accounts. But the tactic of a deliberate bank run can only work if you have a mass movement as the French Yellow Vests did. You'd need to be able to mobilize a large enough number of people. There's no way bus drivers could do that by themselves. You'd need strong union organizing that can bring together labor organizers from across the industries, as well as poor people, small farmers, debt chained students or anyone who has an axe to grind against the government. This is hard to do because Twitter algorithms, mass media consumption, and online space being filled with bots shoving bullshit narratives means people are more split up and atomized than ever before. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, wage workers all more or less saw themselves as working class and understood they had a general common interest. Today, an oil worker in Texas and a California fruit picker don't share that sense of commonality at all. Various shades of paleolibertarianism have become the dominant ideological trend in America. Average joes think life is tough because they aren't working hard enough or put their faith in messianic corporate leaders like Musk or Apple who'll save the world with some magic technology. Everyone wants to be the next billionaire start up. The masses have bought into the ideology of Silicon Valley. >>43712 Immigration is less of an issue than off shoring, deliberate unemployment, and technology specifically designed to replace people. Both allow corpos to tap into a massive reserve pool of cheaper and cheaper labor. What immigration does is split working class power by pitting low wage workers against even lower wage slaves. Governments conspire to maintain a manageable degree of unemployment to allow corpos to depress wages. Its probably why union organizers try to organize migrant labor and guest workers, because securing equal pay would level the playing field and the corpos would loose one strategy of undercutting labor costs and keeping people divided but it wouldn't really solve wage stagnation because labor costs in India or China are even lower.

>>43714 >class isn't an inherent quality like race, sex, etc. its an abstraction (and attempt at explaining) over every quality of oppressed people. this isn't an ideological argument, its a matter of how class scholars define class. Thats true, not sure if this is meant to be a refutation. Maybe people in general posses greater loyalty to groups they can't leave and are intrinsically a part of like the family, whereas any feelings of class solidarity typically evaporate about as soon as a big cheque comes through. >>43722 >can only work if you have a mass movement like the yellow vests Im not French, never heard of this bank run (know the yellow vests though). All the stories I'm finding about it are about the threat/plan, nothing about the actual effect, just that banks and gov are unconcerned. Wikipedia has a list that goes up to 2023, no mention of this one. Looks like this went nowhere. Bank crises of this century I think will generally be a bit different than that last. People hardly use physical currency that I see, its a bit less common than people well versed with flat earth theory, and highly correlated. >In the 19th and early 20th centuries, wage workers all more or less saw themselves as working class (doubt) Maybe the commies did, thats why they were commies. My Texas oil worker Great Grandpaw wasn't particularly keen on the people from Dallas letalone California. But he liked his family, and liked his town, and liked the birds in his backyard.

>>43719 please reread my post. i know about the differences >>43728 it seems to be the case these days and is seemingly one of the biggest hurdles communists have to overcome. however all these things are constructors of class, seeing the way both groups struggle is a very simple exercise

>>43690 Very effective bait, because have I literally have no idea who the fascists are supposed to be here.

>>43730 >seeing the way both groups struggle is a very simple exercise yes but its a huge leap to go from saying that the working class in my country have something in common with W.C. in another country, to saying that they have more in common with W.C. in that other country than they have with their own neighbors. This despite the fact that that other country speaks another language, they lack common ancestry and history and many other things that make a country and nation. Nationalism says heritage and family have primacy, communism must overcome that and assert class comes before blood. This has always been one of its difficulties because nationalism comes rather more naturally to most people. Class can change at the drop of a purse.

>>43979 im going to write a long essay on class consciousness and revolutionary struggle for you because im hopped up on caffeine, i hope this provides a useful, situational analysis. i wouldn't say its as futile as you mention earlier - class traitors exist both ways however i do not know what way someone is supposed to reject being upper class except for moral purposes. the issue is that marxist communism argues against moralism and believes the revolution will not be moral, it will be the realization of greater outcomes for the working class to act collectively and overthrow the capitalists, this will become more attractive over time as the positive outcomes of revolution become more tangible. in a sense, you can see morality as a way of realizing these longtermist goals, although i think modern systems of morality are far more concerned with forms of identity like you said than an individualistically-sacrificing mode of class analysis. to most economists and academics in general, marx remains useful precisely because of his ability to describe individual success, see the entire trajectory of theorization on social capital, as well as the more classical ideas like his breakdown of commodities, capital, domains of labor, means of production, criticisms of the labor theory of value (it was not his idea originally and yes he had criticisms), basically invented economics moreso than anyone else up until keynes in the early 20th century and neoliberalism in the late 20th. like it or not, all these theories are in some capacity indebted to his work, and it is still very profitable for some to derive economic strategies from his writing. in my onion the time is most ripe, as it has always been, to build parallel institutions - free schools, hospitals, meal programs, systems of transportation - which operate on class conscious principles. that is to say foremost workers' collectives who don't turn away clients for moralistic reasons unless there are legitimate safety concerns. i think this would be notably different as even the closest thing to revolutionary group that the United States had was the Black Panther Party, which tried doing exactly that - specifically, running free lunch programs in poverty areas as a replacement for the cuts created by neoliberal austerity, and arming themselves in the process. many modern gangs also emerged from this social moment, all broke down into organized crime or were basically dismantled by law enforcement psyops or direct intervention like the MOVE bombings, reminiscent of earlier activities like the destruction of black wall street or battle of blair mountain. creating parallel institutions is something that leftists, even relatively non radical ones, should be good at it but they largely don't even try in the first place - i think this is due to the primacy to many organized groups who believe in discipline to form a central, electoralist political party that loses, although something noteworthy to me the Green Party did was create parallel institutions to the government system as a whole, by hosting their town halls. this was a very effective strategy in some areas and basically is what led to Vermont having a socialist senator, it was however a victory of the liberal establishment and not a radical one. And this feels to me like the apex of what electoralism can accomplish. Most of the time, the "parties" that authoritarian leftists form wind up basically becoming cadres of wreckers who fuarrrk up pre-existing community organizations, which are generally more anarchic, by inserting themselves into the equation and trying to enforce their own structures. sometimes this even becomes a too-many-cooks type situation, where you have both maoists and marxist-leninists fedjacketing each other and anyone witin reach, becoming very territorial and using disinformation to increase their margins within an already tiny volunteer movement, and doing this under the name of leftist unity and class consciousness. identity politics wreckage and cointelpro also frequently happens here too, and now you have a completely defanged movement. but what do i know, im just an anarchist whos seen my fair share of political organizing be completely ruined by this soykaf repeatedly. on the other hand, anarchists often do act in a fairly disorganized faction that even if rhizomatically incapable of being psyopped like more marxist groups do, are capable of being undermined by marxists - maoists especially are very keen on doing this - or if you are a maoist then its unexamined liberal tendencies and idpol or ~feds~ undercutting the group. either way, or in other ways not elaborated here, the lack of organizational discipline *can* start to become a problem. this is all pretty negativistic, though, and i want to be clear that ive noticed a lot of success among anarchists, especially among groups that do food distribution, harm reduction (think needle exchange or safe-injection-sites), and secure-and-well-planned disruption, especially when there is an associated cultural production - this i think is key to having a successful, longevity situation, and something anarchists naturally excel at due to their understanding of ideals, theses, etc. being downstream of culture - or perhaps both of those things being downstream of a social whole, the situation of things like 「society」, 「culture」, 「ethics」 within 「ecology」, and the possibility unity and dialog between these, and other, potentially disparate ideas. contrast with the more authoritarian idea that cultural production must derive from a set of values, that social movements have singular theses that justify their existence, etc.. this is all getting a bit abstract though, and i would say generally having any cultural production at all > wrecking other groups because they aren't joining your party. I would also add that an important difference between the black panthers era and now is the progression of the drug market. these drugs were illegalized specifically because they were associated with radical movements, as a result many radical movements wound up disowning drugs due to their usage notably by CIA to disrupt the communities. this had echoing effects that created a relatively large consensus against drugs on the left, perhaps in a way that leftist theory was never quite equipped to deal with - darknet markets, clandestine drug labs and cryptocurrency, while accepted by ancoms and justified by the anthropology of say, David Graeber, were fully theorized and developed by agorists, ancaps, mutualists, voluntaryists, and other libertarians. while half of these categories do arrive from the writing and movement of more communistic anarchists like Proudhon, who stated that collectively produced material should firstly belongs to the collective that produced it, these are structures and methods that you can non-denialistically say did not come from leftists. Back to my point about parallel institutions: leftists are the best for this because they have an intrinsic drive towards stability, while there are many leftist individuals who fuarrrk this up with drama, organizations that operate on relatively-leftist principles - such as workers cooperatives - tend to sacrifice things like profit-to-shareholders or executives to maintain themselves as organizations. while disappointing and not particularly ~shiny~, this is actually so important that some co-ops have even become very successful in capitalism, and even concessional arrangements like equity remain an important part of the most powerful markets. on the other hand fascists, while able to achieve some of their short term goals like "systematically killing/working-to-death a large number of people", are notoriously not good at creating lasting institutions and the post-fascist successor neoliberalism is also notoriously bad at it, basically wrecking stable institutions through austerity and other demands, creating notoriously unstable markets, wrecking cooperation for short-term profit, which is also very true in the latest wave of neoliberal technocrats - for example, thiel's admitted failure to build a college, or for that matter run a group house.

>>43986 >gangs this needs to be better clarified. gangs emerged in the aftermath of law enforcement operations against groups like the black panthers.

>>43986 Class consciousness is impossible because we live in a post-social world where everyone is an atomized individual being spoon fed content by algorithms and living in bubbles. People are too fragmented and subjective and self-centered so they don't identify with their social class anymore. Today, distinctions are based on lifestyles and subcultures or dumb internet trends. Even the vast majority of leftists are just doing identity politics and consuming an aesthetic. >creating parallel institutions is something that leftists, even relatively non radical ones, should be good at it but they largely don't even try in the first place The best people who've actually done this are groups like the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas. They started out as religious movements based on uplifting the poor before they became political ones. Leftists shun social activism because they are too busy larping as 19th cen. Russian revolutionaries and their excuse against running a soup kitchen or a free clinic is that its charity and not revolutionary aka "charity is beneath me." But like I said, developed countries are post-social and most people spend all their time online so meatspace activism goes nowhere. Even protests fizzle out after a few weeks, if not months. >leftists are the best for this because they have an intrinsic drive towards stability, while there are many leftist individuals who fuarrrk this up with drama, organizations that operate on relatively-leftist principles. Actually, I think religious organizations are better. Look at the Poor People's Campaign or little churches in Amish country that encourage the entire parish to put up funds to build a free house if someone in the district loses their home etc. Leftists are too instrumental. They see activism as just a tool to gain popularity and overthrow a government instead of how building grassroots institutions can build an alternative to corpo and state structures and help people live their lives. I've seen a lot of Marxist commie theorists and academics rail against Linux because the very idea of ordinary people creating their own community solutions is insane to them. They think Microsoft should be run by stalinist planning committees. Anarchists are probably better when it comes to this but they have their own problems. The worst thing I've seen were articles in Jacobin where commies actively promoted the idea of impoverishing people so they'd become "proletarian" and therefore revolutionary i.e. making people's live worse is a good thing if it advances our dumb subculture. >neoliberalism is also notoriously bad at it They are actually pretty good at it. Sure, they wreck societies (so do commies) but when it comes to building neoliberal institutions that promote neolib values they are pretty good at that. Neolibs have a stranglehold on civil society. Sure, a lot of that is big money funding but neolibs are a lot more flexible and adaptable than leftists. Neolibs would be happy to suck up to the new Syrian government or work with Chinese commies, whereas the average Western leftist denounces everything that isn't his brand of autistically specific leftism.

>>43986 Its not altogether futile, obviously relatively robust states were founded on communist principals even if they were not always perfect in their adherence to them. Its funny that the effective party you list is the Black Panther Party. BPP may have been communist but it was first and primarily nationalist. If anything it seems to have been hijacked by judeofeminist marxoleninists who never succeeded in properly rebranding it (after all the male leadership maybe went to jail or cuba idk?). >fascists unable to achieve longer term goals Fascism lost the war (thanks mostly to non communist states). Had communism lost the war we could probably just as well say that communism can't last but is very good at throwing its people by the millions to their deaths, and who knows what would have happened to the fascist states of europe. Teal last I heard was a guy marriage enthusiast and any proper fascist organization would throw him out immediately ask george lincoln rockwell.

>>43992 also importantto note that nobility is generally not a class but a sort of hybrid class/ethnicity. A peasant who gets a lump of gold the size of his bed isn't a noble, maybe if he marries right and otherwise things go right, his sons or grandsons might be. This obviously creates some tensions and with growth of industry more non nobility get a lot of money power and resentment.

>People are too fragmented and subjective and self-centered so they don't identify with their social class anymore. Disagree, this is the core issue of the paragraph. Since we're both in acceptance that marxian class consciousness is a real possibility under some historical conditions, then it makes sense to elaborate what those historical conditions actually are. "no monopolized internet with algorithms" is NOT imo a crucial historical condition, my reasoning is simple. the internet creates a greater sense of connectivity between people than no internet, and forms of media that existed at the time of marx were more alienated than what we have today. fraudulent journalism always existed, bourgeois media always existed, it is imperative if you want to talk about the theoretical possibilities of class consciousness at all to understand that M​arx argued for leftist media. Furthermore, Marx argued that there was no historical state in which the working classes were more unified than they are post-industrialization, in the era of cities. In the past, socialists could sell newspapers as consumer products and people could identify with socialism without it being counterrevo​lutionary. The same is true of today, only newspapers aren't the main platform anymore. you need a digitalized socialist print shop. >their excuse against running a soup kitchen or a free clinic is that its charity and not revolutionary aka "charity is beneath me." leftist soup kitchens and free clinics exist nonetheless, although it tends to be anarchists the ones doing them. there's a lesson in that: self-identification as a leftis​t, mar​xist-le​ninist, etc and not simply doing anarchy is due to a lust of result which ultimately breeds passivity to the status quo. Yes at some point you need to think about your soup kitchen's role in the revolution but the more important thing is having a soup kitchen, something that there would be a lot more of if leftists could use the internet to coordinate instead of becoming something between a lefty​p​ol doom​er and a social media brand builder. there are some good examples of this happening, for instance the food not bombs organization would not exist without the internet and is probably one of the first examples of the internet disrupting the so-called real world. >developed countries are post-social the concept of a "developed nation" is USA propaganda and the fact that you subscribe to it probably undermines your ability to have the faith you yourself argue is necessary, it also betrays a lack of critical thinking. yes lenin​ism does have a concept of social development that was used to justify their capitalistic enclosure of the ru​ssian economy (for a relatively justified cause at first, the state project of build tanks to murder na​zis), but this theory is a post-hoc rationalization. the rus​sian revolution showed that complete urbanization was not necessary, that class consciousness could literally be built between the urban proletariat and the agricultural peasantry, that these classes could be unified for the sake of radical social reform and overthrow the bourgeoisie. >Actually, I think religious organizations are better. many communistic black liberationists would agree with you that a religious organization has serious revolutionary or at least make-world-better potential. i would agree as well. >actively promoted the idea of impoverishing people so they'd become "proletarian" and therefore revolutionary its a bit misleading to think of proletarianization in this way as it also refers to the leni​nist rationale of converting the peasantry into the proletariat, which is considered to be a form of development. in many historical revolutions, immiseration was used to destabilize bourgeois leadership but moreso in the form of industrial sabotage and institutional disruption in a guerilla warfare situation. making people suffer so they'll revolt at the bourgeois is far from a universal mandate. >They see activism as just a tool to gain popularity and overthrow a government this is what ive been saying. shoehorning The Party into an organization that is helping people is not a real form of helping at all, and its why the left has made no serious gains. > Neolibs would be happy to suck up to the new Syrian government or work with Chinese commies horrid equivalency, and also absurd to think that the new syrian government is something neolibs "suck up to" at all. it was propped up by neoliberal zionists in order to support Israel. China's economy is capitalistic with arguably democratized land ownership ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_Law_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China ), another way of describing it might be "social democracy down the gun barrel." Neoliber​als (especially neocons, a type of neoliberal) however are still fairly averse to working with china, they are in fact still obsessed with the impossible war-with-china scenario the latest evidence of which being the AI fiasco, the previous evidence being the cov​id fiasco. in fact i would say many of the United States' problems today are a consequence of neoliberals refusing to work with Ch​ina, we can talk about how the nonexistent trum​p/china connection was used as a form of propaganda while they scheme and plot behind closed doors but I'm fairly convinced by how much of a soykafshow everything has been that there is a legitimate antipathy here. Another evidence of neolibs not being flexible or adaptable is their clinging to Isra​el, it would have been objectively the best move for them to abandon the country like the rest of the world has, unfortunately they couldn't bring themselves to do this and now things are much worse for everyone. >>43996 >(after all the male leadership maybe went to jail or cuba idk?) cointelp​ro. the BPP got cointel​pro'd. nationalism was used to facilitate this. black liber​ationists make a distinction between different varieties of black nationalism, the BPP itself going through different varieties but were most productive when operating under socialist principles. unfortunately this triggered the CIA and they orchestrated the breakup of the organization by pushing nationalism onto some members and liberalism onto others. while its true that there is a tendency to overestimate psyops, this one is well-documented and a thing thats important to realize is that there's no singular ideology a C​IA agent will push, li​beral nat​ionalism and revoluti​onary nationa​lism are at odds but both serve the agenda of suppressing com​munism. >Fascism lost the war (thanks mostly to non communist states). Had com​munism lost the war we could probably just as well say that communism can't last but is very good at throwing its people by the millions to their deaths, and who knows what would have happened to the fascist states of europe. >yes history does demonstrate the failure of f​ascism, but what if it didn't? then we wouldn't be having this conversation. >>43992 >>43998 class isn't simply an income level either, its a relationship to the state and/or the means of production. A peasant with a lump of gold does not get to become a noble, but he does stop being a peasant and can move into another class, depending on how his cards are played. in this case i would argue that power brokerage is largely still the domain of the bourg​eoisie and their ideology of liber​alism, there is no conflict between capitalism and the state.

>>43996 >Thiel last i heard was a gay marriage enthusiast this is why i consider neoliberalism to be post-fascist, because it amorally incorporates some of the things tried under fascism but doesn't stick to the agenda. Although there were actually many fascists before the long knives, the brown shirts in particular seemed especially big on it. never forget that American businesses like Ford propped up the Third Reich.

>>44006 Why are there so many zero-width spaces (U+200B) in your post? I count 31 of them.

>>44018 leftists are doing more than you think. there've been plenty of strikes in the past few years and new organizations that succesfully campaigned for things like increased minimum wage, etc. these have so far been liberal reforms and not revolutionary seizures, but they come from a consequence of socialization including via the internet. people do form intimate connections through the internet, for better or worse, but you don't need those to organize together or form an affinity group to do action with. you just need to verify trust, and you shouldn't be doing actions with people you just met at political things anyway. I meant to address another part of your post. Liberals tend to associate large protests with revolutionary activity, but radicals tend not to see it that way. "have a big protest" is not what class warfare is, it is about seizing your workplace and instrumentalizing it for revolution. protests don't mean much unless they seriously disrupt the mechanics of power, although they can be useful for meeting eager people to vet into other networks. There has been revolutionary activity in many post-industrial nations, as well. France being my immediate thought. This hasn't occurred in the United States, however. Why? All of these places have internet and subcultures, so it's a more complicated question than internet. >Often, people side with kinship groups, sectarian groups, instead of class distinctions >the nuclear family makes revolution impossible the nuclear family is dead, besides, tension between family and class existed in Marx's day as well and is why he wrote about. the relevant distinctions have been overcome countless times, and they can be overcome again. >we rarely experience or interact with other cultures speak for yourself. I do, and I can see the consequences of this everywhere. the website was inspired by 2chan, it has russian, japanese, european, african, south and north american users on it. the admin lives in australia. I would agree with you that cars and suburbs are a serious road block, not just for revolution but for working-class people in general. this is why i mentioned buses as a potential form of leftist dual power structure. any means of coordinating the logistics for people going to work has revolutionary potential.

>>44020 >In Palestine, if the pigs come and drag someone out of their home, the neighborhood protests, tries to obstruct the bacon, even riot. true, this is a tragedy of American society. >lifestyle, subculture, and hobbies are more important to people than class i think that's missing the point. lifestyle, subculture, and hobbies are classed, for instance the popularity of work boots among punks. caviar is not a hobby for the poor. unless you steal the caviar. >even if you get a revolutionary protest wave some tactics still work. but doing soykaf in the streets is a highly evolved exercise, both sides using military strategy, civilians typically not having a serious goal in mind if it isn't "make a soykaf ton of noise to feel better about things", maybe provide cover for our god-given right to looting and property damage. picket lines are rare but if they did exist i can see this being a useful conjunction. >Probably because the US never went through a social democracy phase on the same level as france? The French have a habit of role playing their own national history too. true. kind of based of them though. >It is .... have all led to post-social dystopia slightly overbroad category but agree. I think the primary reason why this happens is because of Disaster Capitalism - crises, the biggest one being 9/11, might have literally occurred from radical islamists hijacking planes and using them to hit the twin towers, rather than a controlled demolition or what have you. but this is also because national security infrastructure was largely a form of theater to begin with, and these crises don't actually challenge - in fact they reinforce it and provide a precedent for authoritarianism to drag out the policy reinforcing social alienation. there is no incentive to prevent crises from occuring to the United States, in fact it is in the best interests of our so-called leaders to profit from crisis as much as possible. >Yet we all communicate in English /layer/ is Russian, and you'd be surprised - I honestly do feel like lainchan is a lot more diverse than many other places online, and a bit more civil about it too. I see your point, though. I just get the feeling that the reason why we can say its not as international as it could be is because we can now imagine what that looks like. The phreaks who first whistled into their phone receivers to dial citizens in China imagined a new world, and for its bringing-forth I am thankful. If the Internet is the vision of an alienated society, then I'm still glad to see.

>>44017 Strange. I would expect the filter to normalize posts before testing them. And I don't see those characters, I just noticed them trying to copy-paste a word.

>>44090 >im not gonna use free tools people i hate made retardation, imagine handicapping yourself just to spite people who dont even know about you

>>43697 There are religious idiots who trust Murdoch press, they are not that rich but always vote for right wing zealots because they believe that economy will collapse and would will end if left comes to power. Some of them are mean cunts with a stick up their ass who live miserably themselves and think everyone should so too. Most of them are religious as only Christianity gives them justification for their suffering, they think everyone else should suffer too because in their religion it makes things better somehow. That kind of idiots. However one thing they somewhat care for is spawning more children like crazy, that is one weakness we can exploit.