Rational suicide?

Let me preface by saying I'm not interested in hearing about helplines, or statements about depression, illness, or anything of that nature. If you're depressed and are considering killing yourself because your life is painful then of course I encourage you to seek out help and think about that choice very carefully. This is not a post about that type of suicide. My life is good. I'm not sick. I have a good job. I have good friends. I feel a normal amount of happiness and a normal amount of sadness at the appropriate times and in response to regular events in my life. There's nothing to fix, because nothing is broken. That said, I am increasingly curious about what it would look like to make the choice to end my life earlier than nature would otherwise end it. I feel like I've done enough, seen enough, have enough, am enough. The idea of doing this all for another ~50 years is not appealing and I'm curious about alternatives. I will eventually die by natural causes in some unknown amount of time, and I am intrigued by the idea of choosing to do so early, on my own terms. I've been trying to find information about sure-fire ways to do this with: A) minimal pain to myself, B) minimal chance of screwing it up and still being alive on the other side, and C) minimal disruption to other people. I don't want to throw myself off of a tall building because that would be unpleasant and dangerous for the people at the bottom. I don't want to take a gun to my head because I'm concerned I'd mess it up and end up alive and disabled on the other side. I don't want to be in agony for hours while a poisonous substance takes hold. Ideally, I'd like to know if there's something I can ingest and then just go to sleep like normal and not wake up. Apart from the practical question, I'm curious if anyone else has considered this before. What do you think about suicide in general? Does a person own their own life? If they are of sound mind and want to choose to give that life up, does any other person have the right to tell them no?

i'm generally happy, people would describe me as bubbly. i've got a fire in me i can't put out, a love of experiencing. but i've thought of it, in a depressed way and in the way you describe. i've still a few more things to do here, though. i also have a lot of people i'm close to and don't want to hurt them. and i feel and experience new things all the time - tomorrow could be amazing, i don't know. i described myself as having "a love of experiencing," which i guess lends itself to continuing living. but what about the experience of suicide? "There was no reason for me to stay in the real world any longer. In the real world, it didn't matter if I was there or not. When I realized that, I was no longer afraid of losing my body."

I'll just copy/paste a comment I made the other day on here, in case you missed it. I'll expand afterwards. >Since you brought up kms, I'll just say I don't really get suicide as a rational action. Reality is effectively neutral, it's when it hits your dome that the shades and highlights get colored in -- so choose to paint bright (mental autonomy). For all that we can tell, we are no less after death than we were before birth, as is the universe... so yay reincarnation is in a sense confirmed if you agree with line of reasoning. Following this, rebirth can presumably be considered the ultimate RNG (blah blah faith, give me proof - oh there is none, so let's default on this). What assurance can anyone give that we, in our next lives, be able to move, think, feel, and reflect in a way that justifies ending this roll? I'm not a man of faith, but seriously, I cannot emphasize enough... we are incredibly, incredibly blessed! Now to follow that, I think this is ultimately about where we draw the line. For myself, anything that is reversible is out of the question for justification. Especially for things that can be considered mental or perceptive, or things generally occurring directly outside one's own senses. Pain and suffering are a part of reality. Maybe not every reality, but I'm not a betting man. Speaking of declining bets, there is a sea of attempts to explain life and death. It's a bit liberating to have seemingly every angle out there of which many can make sense for explanation, in so that we can come face to face with the true nature of the unknown. We can even cook up our explanations, make sense of our own reality and how it pertains to mortality and infinity. Ultimately though, having that relatable, palatable proof that any ultimate answer found by oneself or others is, lacking any authority, an arbitrary shot in the dark, and realizing that relinquishes that pressure from hoping for those truths to be obtained within one's own mortal bounds. That said, I don't think this means you shouldn't believe anything, just that maybe it's unwise to put a large wager towards it. There is a case for suicide when suffering a consistent affliction of pain that is severe and permanent enough, something where the limit can only be personally judged... and I personally do not know when I'd judge is too much. If I had to guess now, I'd say when my ability to think and experience has been consistently and wholly consumed by pain is when I'd personally tap out, even thought that risks overwhelming any ability to attempt. But who am I kidding? I'd likely tap out sooner, though I'd like to think I wouldn't. I know of painless, accessible, and reliable ways to commit suicide. However, I cannot see myself in being in any authority to promote it in any way whatsoever, and I strongly urge anybody that does have such knowledge to deeply consider the possible repercussions of sharing. That possibility of having contributed to somebody's untimely death is a far too heavy weight to bear for me at least.

>minimal pain to myself, well ain't that the kicker. Who really knows. Not many dead people wandering around to tell us. Big thing to think about of course is whether there's an afterlife in which you might suffer infinitely for suicide. If there is then no suicide is worth it. >suicide methods always an interesting topic. Anesthetics are all good but sadly most of them are injections. Benzodiazepine (sleeping pill) suicides appear relatively common (especially when paired with alcohol), as well as other drug ODs. Fentanyl has apparently even been used in executions, albeit as an injectible, and with other classic injectibles like potassium chloride. Probably best to test any drugs you plan to OD on first, to assess whether they agree with you. Standard suicide theory also calls for at least one fallback system. Consider doing it in a room setup to loose oxygen and suffocate you after you fall asleep, for instance, and with various guarantees agaisnt interruption. Alternately, just go out on your boat in a random direction and arrange to drown in the frigid water while no one knows where you are, after passing out from your sleeping pills while drunk. Test as much of the plan as possible before doing it, of course. Do you have children?

This is such an interesting topic and one that I have thought off before. Not for the same reasons as you, OP, but of my fear with possible dementia in my golden years. I've set in my mind that the moment I reach 50 / 60 years of my life, it would be time to consider and act on it. Family members say that it's a pretty early to end it, but I think that 50 years is enough to see and experience just about everything. That said, this quote here; >I feel like I've done enough, seen enough, have enough, am enough. The idea of doing this all for another ~50 years is not appealing rings alot of rationality. One which I feel comfortable accepting to let them go on their own terms. "That'll do". >What do you think about suicide in general? Does a person own their own life? If they are of sound mind and want to choose to give that life up, does any other person have the right to tell them no? It's interesting. For people like you, I can understand and I may encourage it. If it's a decision took in a clear mind, who am I to decide for you? I can't feel the same for people doing it out of depression/anxiety, unless chronic. I'm curious: Before you go, are you planning to see people and tell them farewell? And of course, good luck on your way out.

Double posting, so sage'ing out of repect, but I would like to add, do you have plans to distribute your belongings to someone you may need it if you were to act on it?

>>31045 Death is part of life, if you want to kill yourself, make up your mind. Just make sure that if you really want to do it, you arent doing it over something gay. Part of life is that we die, if you can't find meaning in life and want to die, maybe you can find a meaningful way to die. If you have a deathwish, nothing is stopping you from saving children from burning buildings or volunteering in a war zone. As far as suicide success rates, 100% of suicides end in death. Getting to that point is a trivial matter. It is hard to quantify how many failed attempts or attempts where people back out at the last minute there actually are. Hanging is a classic method that most people do when they are commited to die and depending on how someone does it, it has a high chance of sucess. This can be bad especally if people are alone because it leaves a body for someone to find a long period of time later. Sepukku or self imolation is the Chad way to go, but also not very comfortable. There is also that tea that some monks drink to mumify their bodies while alive and also starving themselves over months, have to give them credit for such a long term suicide. >Apart from the practical question, I'm curious if anyone else has considered this before. No, suicide is gay >What do you think about suicide in general? Your body, your choice. I feel differently if you are trying to use sucide to back out of a commitment that you made to someone, because you have an obligation to at least finish what you start. Does a person own their own life? >Does society/humanity own peoples lives? If they are of sound mind and want to choose to give that life up, does any other person have the right to tell them no? I would loose a lot of respect if you kys with unfinished business, but unless your suicide hurts me somehow, no hard feelings. Of course if it was my son tellng me he wants to anhero, I would tell him no, but another adult is a different story.

There's a lot of writing and discourse about this under the right to die movement. It varies from advocation for euthanasia for terminally ill patients, sufferers of debilitating injuries, and people with unbearable chronic pain, to advocation for destigmatizing rationale suicide and allowing a culture where you can discuss your suicide plans with friends and family, have some loving farewells, and pass peacefully via doctor assisted suicide. Usually this is framed in the context of elderly people. I personally support the right to die movement. When I'm old and certain that I'm ready to die, I hope I can let my close ones know, give them time to have their farewells and closures, and die on my own terms. However, the overwhelming majority of suicide attempts are not rational suicides. Most people are suffering from mental illnesses or stressful life events that can be solved through means other than death. So while I'm in favor of the right to die and rational suicide, I'm against most suicides. I don't want to answer your question about practical suicide methods because I know there are depressed, suicidal lains here whose suicidal ideation is not coming from a rational place. But there are studies that detail the efficacy, pain, and social impact of many methods.

I've been daydreaming about Taoism and Reinforcement Learning... The book of way says if you go up or down a ladder your position is shaky, only when you stand on the ground with two feet do you feel stable... In RL the TD update algorithm is is to program an agent to update how good it thought the world was at one moment based on how good it things the world is the moment after. Apparently dopamine in mammals seems like it may be representing this algorithm. This would mean there is a conservation of pain/pleasure so long as your mind remains connected to the world and the world state is not constantly changing with respect to your reward function. Like the Daoist story of the farmer. About right to self terminate... I am caught betwen a desire for everyone to have a good chill time and the desire for people to choose what they want. Basically I'd like for everyone to be able to choose suicide, but for things to be nice enough that nobody does. Obviously that isn't so helpful in practical matters, but it is how feel. On choosing tho, I don't believe people are single agents, but are built up out of many agents all trying to use the limited processing in the brain and limited time controling the body. When someone wants to commit suicide, a subset of their internal agents are trying to destroy the entire human so that they can end. It would be much nicer if just those internal agents could end leaving any other agents to still do what they want to do. Of course this might turn the human into a sociopath or simpleton, but to be honest I'm not sure how bad of a thing that really is. For suicide in places where it cannot be discussed, besides all the other important things, consider the person who has to take your body out. If you can't arrange to be found promptly, perhaps put yourself on a strong board or sheet that won't break once it is soaking with your rotting fluids, and maybe on a table for easier transfer to the gurney. Consider the path the guy with the gurney will have to take to get you out and into the van. >>31047 And here's Ender telling people not to share suicide methods, lol... You might be surprised if you go through a lot of pain. I think the possibility is there that "desire to live" scales with the amount of pain you're experiencing... or maybe it's like, you can only see how deep your will to live is once you have something to measure it against. I know there are much worse things, but I think the worst physical pain I've ever felt was when I broke my leg. The pain consumed almost all my focus almost all the time (until I was on morphine). And what I found was that "make the pain stop" just became a lot more important than all the other things I had cared about before I was experiencing that pain. >>31057 >If you have a deathwish, nothing is stopping you from saving children from burning buildings or volunteering in a war zone. Nah, we don't really want emotionally unhinged people as part of coordinations in emergency situations I would assume. >>31057 Right, social obligation brings another aspect to the discussion. Taking loans, using the money, then kys seems wrong, however if you are in debt due to circumstances you didn't have much control over it seems different. Parents put a lot of effort into creating you with expectations, but at the same time, they didn't (and couldn't) give you a choice in agreeing to terms.

I think a murder is wrong. Why would killing yourself be any different?

>>31059 I think by some definitions anyone wanting to die would be considered mentally ill/unwell.

>>31061 >And here's Ender telling people not to share suicide methods, lol... ROFL, yeah that's ironic. I have been through my fair share of pain. Broken multiple bones, health and money issues, as well as dealt with some severe psychological trauma long term that dwarfs any other pain I've been through by a significant margin. To put it simply things change... "this too shall pass". Suicide not required. I do think innate vs trained ability for things like patience, reason, tolerance, etc have some sort of minimum and maximum range for any given person. Honestly despite having broken arms and legs, I don't think I've been seriously tested physically. Chronic debilitating health conditions I would imagine to be the worst of the mental-physical space, and it's hard to say what anybody's tolerance for such things are without actually going through them.

Dying is a little different from sleep because your brain isn't alive to have dreams any more. Life isn't a video game, when you find out there's nothing to experience in nothing you will not be able to restart. You won't even know that there's nothing, because your brain is full of formaldehyde. We have ideas about what happens after we die because we cannot fathom not existing. You think there's nothing left to experience here but you've really just run out of things to experience in your boring life. Do something different instead of getting up, going to work, and spending your time off watching anime and playing video games. Find a hobby. Being an internet user isn't a hobby.

>>31062 >I think a murder is wrong. Why would killing yourself be any different? Assuming you believe in property rights and self ownership, in one case you are violating the property rights of another person and in the other case you are just destroying your own property.

>>31061 >Nah, we don't really want emotionally unhinged people as part of coordinations in emergency situations I would assume. What rational person would willingly go into a life threatening situation for little or no reward? You have no idea what the rates of suicidal thoughts or actions are within emergency coordination staffs and organizations. Some of the most daring ones often dont care about their own lives, and their desire to die doing something important overpowers their rational thought for self preservation. >>31063 This is generally the case. It's funny how most anti-suicide propaganda is basically "nooooo don't do it, theres more to life." The abilty for people to have control of their own lives is empowering in itself. To put it one way, anti-suicide campaigns that focus on "wellness" generally just create a state of compulsory living. Even if people don't want to live, society forces them to do so.

>>31045 >Ideally, I'd like to know if there's something I can ingest and then just go to sleep like normal and not wake up. pills + alcohol. benzodiazepines and fentanyl are the first that come to mind, but antidepressants could also work. >I'm curious if anyone else has considered this before i have and sometimes still do. i like to think, from an agnostic view point, that whatever is beyond this physical world is completely unknown, and when i consider suicide, it's the same as thinking that literally anything is better than whatever i'm dealing with in this world. i've daydreamed about it sometimes, but never really tried to kill myself, though i know i could very effectively do that. i'm literally just some random web surfer, nothing special, nothing wonderful. >What do you think about suicide in general? Does a person own their own life? If they are of sound mind and want to choose to give that life up, does any other person have the right to tell them no? i don't know, i never thought of suicide from that perspective. suicide by itself is a weird thing that probably only humans do, just like murdering people for the sake of murdering. humans have a different way to look at life compared to other living beings, and honestly i don't know why. suicide is not a natural thing, so when someone considers it, regardless of their reasoning behind it, that person needs help. idk, it's complicated, but i think anyone has the right to stop someone from killing themselves, but at the same time, i believe that anyone is free to do whatever the fuarrrk they want with their body, considering that they have a good reason to do it.

Consider this before you decide to end it. There are many things in this world that even the people who make discovering soykaf their whole life don't even know. You certainly have not experienced everything and you never will. I am glad you have a comfortable life and not have very many problems, not many people can say that about their life. But maybe try discoursing a little and see what else is out there. Maybe interest yourself in what the Earth itself has to offer and not what society has to offer.

>>31087 >What rational person would willingly go into a life threatening situation for little or no reward? Just because you're too soybrained to appreciate the role of bravery and heroism in the masculine status hierarchy doesn't mean there is no reward.

>>31062 Can you explain why you think a murder is wrong? I'm not being an edgelord, it's just useless to apply reason to vague concepts like moral 'right' and 'wrong'. I think murder is almost always unethical and anti-social primarily because you're hurting someone without their consent and not in direct defense. That sentence alone isn't concrete, but it makes more sense as to why I think murder bad, and why I don't think suicide is comparable. It still affects other people, but I consider keeping a sane, suicidal person alive to be cruel torture and unproductive to society.

>>31120 I'm not sure I agree with the appeal to nature. I believe the closest there is to some objevtive meaning of life is to reconcile survival and reproduction (I don't care about that meaning, in fact I consider it just a confirmation bias due to almost everyone alive being the lifeforms that are biased towards surviving, but its pretty much what life, biologically speaking, is. Self-reproduction.) So in that sense you aren't wrong. A human that wants to die can be considered a dysfunctional human. However, I don't think it's inherently irrational. Consider fatal sacrifice to save your offspring as a demonstration of rational suicide. That is a socially accepted reconciliation of the desire to live and the desire to reproduce and protect your DNA. Consider also a case where a person logically concludes (rightfully or wrongfully) that they can't meaningfully contribute to society or reproduce. Would self-termination be irrational? Maybe, if you consider survival more important than reproduction. But this ultimately this immaterial ideal disregards critical issues. We aren't in a natural environment. The concept of making strangers rich for their profit is irrational. Is acting naturally meaningful? People are mechanically motivated by other factors than rationality and logic. In fact, irrationality is frequently natural. So I consider the ideal of natural to be interesting, but not directly relevant to anti-suicide and rationality

>>31087 >What rational person would willingly go into a life threatening situation for little or no reward? Death is life's great reward!

>>31124 >missing the sarcasm My point is that according to normal people, bravery and heroism are things left to their TV and vidya. Everyone want's to be gangsta till its time to do gangsta soykaf. >>31132 If your goal is death, nothing short of killing you can stop you