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I recently played VR chat, one of the strangest things I noticed was the players relationship with their identity in game. most players who weren't there for trolling had a unique avatar that they identified with. this was really strange because while they may appear like an anthropomorphic being (furry) or flawless anime boy in VR chat, it is a given that their physical appearance is not the same as the person they show themselves as in the virtual world this made me think about the topic of your real self, and its relation to your ideal self in a virtual world. using VR chat as an example, its very clear that people will default to their ideal self over a virtual recreation of their real self. while it was rarely done in good faith some players would also appear as a virtual recreation of their metaphorical self (think like "I'm a funny guy so I'm going to appear as Shrek"). in my opinion, representing yourself in the virtual space as a metaphor of your real self is much more honest than showing yourself as an ideal form, I would even go as far to say that people who choose the ideal self are hiding a deeper insecurity about their own appearance behind the "perfect" avatar I really want to know your opinions on this topic, if you want to better understand what I'm talking about, go and play VR chat as a newbie and you will immediately catch on to what I'm describing. (you don't need a VR rig to play) I was watching a YouTube video on a similar topic in the game about men who identify as women, displaying themselves as a woman. They mention that in some extreme cases, people in the game will identify more with the fake "ideal" virtual self than they do with their real appearance. anyways, VR is becoming more common and this phenomenon isn't likely to go away, I just wanted to open discussion on your virtual identity compared to your actual self in a VR setting

Used to play tons of vrchat a few years ago. I don't really think this is a vr specific phenomenon, though it's certainly easier online. I think this also extends to the wider internet itself however and the real world. In the real world, we are constantly altering ourselves to fit personal and societal ideals. We're inundated with face tune, plastic surgery, filler, fast fasion, and the like. Especially amongst the wealthy who can afford it, they have the ability to really just alter their appearance to these standards on a whim and then change them again when trends change. In most circumstances, I don't really see much of a problem with people altering their appearance virtually or otherwise to fit into these norms outside of a class context. They're just looking to make it easier on themselves. As to whether or not this helps as opposed to the much more difficult work of dismantling those structures, probably not, but its the best situation for many people, unfortunately. As for how this relates to transness it's probably better to just read judith butler or something to understand how many of them (but not all) philosophically view gender (not biological sex) as performance rather than fixed. This is the growing perception of gender, like it or not. In my opinion, it's not something to seethe about. I do think a lot of people use vrchat to play with gender in an environment where they can better express themselves while not being bound to the complications of their physical appearance not passing as feminine or masculine enough. I think the body more so limits the true self with aesthetics in general and that's something to keep in mind.

I think this is a good topic, OP. When I'm free to pick my appearance in games or avatars and I'm not pressured on looking like myself, I usually pick the opposite gender, but interestingly I don't feel disphoria about my body, or any will to change who I am or how I'm perceived in real life. I guess my idealized avatars personify what I'm attracted to much more than who I am, but I don't feel I'm hiding anything, I feel more like I'm expressing myself by taking the form of what I like.

>>29557 >Especially amongst the wealthy who can afford it, they have the ability to really just alter their appearance to these standards on a whim and then change them again when trends change I think you're overestimating the general prevelance of plastic surgery and its efficacy. It really seems like if you do it too much you just end up looking like a bogdanov. I guess it works if you're a fatso and just want to be thin again. I do think its important to remember that a lot of people picking avatars are just doing something cool or fun. Its a game, you kinda play with it, thats the point. Not being very hip myself I get the impression VR is still largely the domain of weirdos who might revel more in the escape it provides than the average person. Not that the average person doesnt enjoy games, but I dont think the tendancy to identify with the avatar is the same. Just my thoughts and maybe they're off base. I only spent a tiny bit of time in VR once, and my avatar such as it was was a pair of hands floating in space.

>>29561 I think you have a point about plastic surgery, but respectfully I disagree. I actually think weight loss surgeries are the least good for drastic alteration as they don't even recommend getting lipo until you're at an ideal weight and gastric bypass causes belching constantly. Meanwhile, you can literally be like bella hadid and get a new face these days if you have the cash. A few years ago if you went overboard you'd look like a monster though, I agree with that. Anyway, that's all I have to say since I don't want to derail.

>why do people play as super buffed orc dude or elf princess in video games instead of fat neckbeard with unwashed hair who resembles themselves, are they trans-species and transs-sexual or what -- someone with colored hair and problem glasses circa 2005, probably

>>29552 My digital personas and nicknames always were kinda close to real me. Even when playing RPG I usually roleplayed as me, but in x setting. I think usually people create elaborate personas because they have some part of them they have to hide in meatspace for various reasons, so they let it out online since it's closest you can get right now to being in a place where your past doesn't tie you down all the time. Whenever it's more real I don't know. To me sometimes it's like play pretend to see if this is who I would be, so I play it in abstract. Think of it kinda like daydreaming to explore yourself.

>>29564 My casual observation here is people who play the "good guys" are avg people while "bad" faction is mostly pvp oriented people who like conflict. This ironically leads to the "good guys" getting dunked by a onesided distribution of pvp players. Similarly the ugly races have more elite players because the minmaxers choose according to racial benefits while normal people go for looks which again filters bad players out of ugly races. TLDR: beautiful = avg , ugly = minmax If i would want to armchair i would guess the "good guy" player is stuck in his moral development at the policeman stage. Everyone should be familiar here with the moral ladder as its school material.

>>29552 I've thought about this too. I do think there's more to it than hiding you're actually a burn victim though. Sometimes you just want to feel like you're somebody else for a while. VR chat makes who you are in real life irrelevant because the whole appeal is that nothing is real. But if I played VR chat and knew blender and rigging stuff, I would just make an even more fatass version of myself. Just as a statement.

>>29582 >if I played VR chat and knew blender and rigging stuff What people do is download a done mode and just modfiy it. Requires no skill and minimal effort.

>>29552 You just discovered that video games can make you trans or a furry?

People aren't their bodies. They are their own minds and how others see them. Also it's escapism which is nothing new.

>>29613 You cant play nba as a midget and you cant fly fighter jets as a lanklet. (something about blood circulation failing at higher G in taller people) If you had a different body you would lead a different life. It is thereby shaping your mind.

Why would you choose your unchosen self that you cannot fix without bankrupting yourself (if the means exist at all) instead what you want? And how is looking like you would if you could afford it dishonest? Even in meatspace, social interaction is performative lies and bullshit in significant part. Being able to express the appearance you actually intend or want would at least make it more truthful to your intent rather than constrained by inadequate reality. >>29567 >Everyone should be familiar here with the moral ladder as its school material. I have never heard of this and completed university education. Rather, we entirely skipped over that and went right into considering the fundamental philosophies of various ethical and moral systems, and what justifications they try to use.

>>29616 > Being able to express the appearance you actually intend or want would at least make it more truthful to your intent rather than constrained by inadequate reality. Character traits show in body. Hormone regulating aggression modifies also face shape for example. So people judging on looks are looking instinctively at hidden markers for character traits. China has a lot of minority report news going in that direction. It goes up to "we found a link in criminal and face". If it works it makes sense that there's a subconscious evaluation in this manner too since it goes into escaping danger from other people. >I have never heard of this and completed university education. Should be this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development tldr is you develop morality in stages.Roughly start is "i do whatever i want and only avoid punishment" aka im a baby wtf are morals? Midtier is trained adult "i do what society says is good" and the ubermensch does basically kants categorical imperative "i build my morals in a manner that everyone could and should act according to them". The guy had also some funny numbers regarding how many people could climb to what level which basically summed up to most being forever stuck in bronze league.

>>29552 read into the proteus effect

>>29617 >Should be this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development Right, I looked it up before replying, which is why I mentioned how ethics was taught where I was studying. There are some criticisms in that page which reasonably call the theory into question.

>>29614 If you had a different body and a different mind it wouldn't be you anymore though. You are only you not someone else other than yourself. There is no hypothetical other only you.

My body is just an interface for my soul to communicate itself in to the wired. Why should my meatspace vessel affect how I represent myself here in any way?

>>29552 I don't associate myself with the characters I play. They are dolls that I dress to look good - they show my sense of beauty and style, but not my ideal or metaphorical self. I am is what this character says and does, not how it looks, my image of myself is a shapeless spirit that controls the characters, be it my real life body or my in-game character. If given the choice between my idealized appearance and a fantasy character, I'd play as a fantasy character - not because I don't like my appearance, but because they're something that looks cooler than a human. For those who strongly associate with their avatars - I'm not sure that most people have realistic self-image in general, VRChat is one of the things that expose this phenomenon. Probably because people don't see themselves in the mirror a lot and don't interact with the world with their bodies as much as they're supposed to - nothing "objective" shapes their personality. A guy can imagine himself being a Rambo, while looking like a walking chipmunk - a few reality checks to the jaw might relocate his personality into a more realistic state, but it's not guaranteed. In the virtual world, with no reality checks possible at all, and no societal pressure to look or behave in a particular way, a person's image of themselves can drift indefinitely far.

>>29635 I think a lot of people feel that way, whether they know it or don't. I certainly didn't have these words to eloquate it. The avatar is like any other set of clothes. The way you dress reflects who you are no matter what you do about it, so you might as well take advantage of the complete absence of aesthetic constaints.

>>29617 >Character traits show in body This is something called criminal anthropology and it's a load of bs. China must really know something we don't if they study a theory that has been rejected for over 100 years.

>>29671 its been rejected cause of "nazis did it! r333333" and then a bunch of biology studies showed its actually true, as said i.e. high test shows in head shape and also regulates mmod. So the kneejerk idiots were wrong.

>>29673 I'm not even going to counter your argument because I'm absolutely dumbfounded by how wrong it is.

>>29676 >i have no argument and i must screech of course

>>29669 >>29635 this is a good way of explaining what i found uncanny about the game, there are no aesthetical limitations and the people act accordingly. i suppose the uncanny part lies in the natural behavior of the people who appear unreal. its like a strange area in the uncanny valley where people look unnatural but act perfectly human

>>29678 Nope. It's frankly because you seem to have an inability to fact check yourself. Why don't you go on any page about anthropological criminology right now and look for the word "nazi", or read about how it came to be disproven.

>>29686 Take your own advice. Google or use pubmed. Its a fact that test affects face shape and aggression. And if you too stupid for that you should at least have heard about fetal alcohol syndrome. Again both facial shape (lip) and mental problems (dumber).

>>29687 Fair enough if true. >Its a fact that test affects face shape and aggression. But can you provide a source for this claim? I have read extensively about this topic just today and everything I found point to it being pseudo-science and unreliable in practice. >you should at least have heard about fetal alcohol syndrome. I have. But related how? It's true that lack of rational thinking makes you more reckless and, so you do stupid things. But criminologists used to look at a lot more traits than that of someone with fetal alcohol syndrome. Also I feel partly responsible for derailing this thread so much. Sorry OP.

>https://www.google.com/search?q=testesterone+facial+shape&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 >http://www.larspenke.eu/pdfs/Lefevre_Lewis_Perrett_Penke_in_press_-_fWHR_and_reactive_T.pdf literally first entry with google. You could have done it 6 posts ago yourself already but nope gotta waste everyone's time. So sorry you cant be even assed to do a 2s google search. This is just the scientific version of the chad meme, i dont know whats so crazy controversial about this. Also don't confuse "a pattern exists" with reliable. This minority report stuff is best case still below 80% accurate. Its simply better than guessing which shows a pattern exists and thus its used to filter out which people get priority when you are looking for suspects. As for how it ties back to topic - you can hide who you really are with an avatar. You heavily filter people you interact with irl but there is no quality control with anonymous interactions online. Good example was that pic of reddit mods, if normal people saw those losers they would lose all respect for reddit.

>>29691 I actually think you're right, Lainon. In my defense, I was looking at an older more unscientific practice-- long before we knew anything about testosterone. I swear I wasn't wasting time on purpose.