Lainzine 5!

皆さん、おは！ so zine 4 is finally out properly (see https://lainzine.neocities.org/), and it's time to quit worrying and move on to the next challenge! maybe some of you've seen me around on irc or whatever; from here on, i'll be doing my best to work with stopwatch / junk and keep future issues of the lainzine pretty (and free of "partisan drama"). so that being said, if you've got a cool thing, go ahead and submit it! https://lainzine.neocities.org/submissions.html looking forward to seeing you all again soon ^_^ -- shmibs (https://shmibbles.me/) (also, stopwatch, email me pls, or irc works too)

also, to start things off, a writing prompt! so i've got this pair of mika images: https://shmibbles.me/art/glitch/full/預言-a.png https://shmibbles.me/art/glitch/full/預言-b.png (warning, very-large-files) it'd be cool to pair them with a bit of creative writing, so if you want to write a poem or short-story or whatever and can't think of another topic, take a stab at that! (or maybe, if there are enough, we could choose the best two or some other subset)

That cover looks so schway.

i'm already writing my article, hope to have the time to finish it this weekend

>>2914 i know, right? >>2915 coo coo

I had this idea of adding type-in programs ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type-in_program ) but with useful bash script. The thing is people could just copy and paste it, and if we try to make it uncopyable it would just render the thing obnoxious. So if someone have an idea to make this one viable, go for it.

thanks for getting this train rollin', shmibs i have one article planned for this release. >>2917 i love this idea and have at least one script i can share; perhaps we can upload longer programs to a lainfile

>>2917 hmmm, interesting; just for the aesthetic aspect, though? why would being able to copy it out be a prob? >>2918 ah, glad ^_^ feels like this issue could turn out well. thanks, guys maybe i'll write up a story or something too, and am thinking of asking one or two on-topic peeps from elsewhere about having a segment too after exams are over really need to be studying right now...

>We avoid the directly political, at least in the sense of the ongoing conflict endemic to the rest of the wired, and reality. Would an essay about free speech focusing on the phrase, "Shouting fire in a crowded theater," be barred for being political? It's obviously a social topic with lots of ramifications in politics, but it's not like it would be endorsing or decrying any particular party or economic/governmental system. A solid half of it would be linguistic history.

>>2920 Personally I'm not responsible for submissions but it sounds like its worth a try - hit junk up in the email and see - It sounds ok to me!

>>2920 that sounds probably good to me! would be really interested for more linguistics stuff

>free of "partisan drama" >has lainchan.jp branding on the cover when previous issues never even mentioned any lainchan on the cover Yeah, fuarrrk off. Unless you meant this one is full of partisan drama and future ones will be free of it.

>>2923 I keep expecting better of Junk and he keeps disappointing me. "Retracted to fix typos" indeed, there's still one on the first page of the first article. To me, the claim that it's non-partisan, while clearly attempting to promote one over the other, reeks of the fact that they'd love for it to be partisan but know that without our support they haven't a hope of getting enough articles to fill a zine. I've a lot of patience for it being way past schedule or the editing problems. Mistakes happen but this wasn't a mistake. It was consciously chosen. Maybe we should take a leaf out of their book, make the next issue ourselves and avoid this bullsoykaf.

>>2923 i mean from here on. was not involved in formatting / editing / etc before. >>2924 things are going to be better. i'll be looking over every article for spelling / grammar / etc as well now, and we're working a system for multiple pairs of eyes proofing things at the end too. there isn't any "they". the zine isn't a constituent of any particular site; it's its own thing, and i'm already working on bringing in content from interesting third-parties who aren't "from lainchan" but have cool stuff to say. i'll be fine, promise

>>2925 *it'll

>>2925 >there isn't any "they". the zine isn't a constituent of any particular site Then why the fuarrrk does it have lainchan.jp written on the front? Somebody did that. If "they" didn't do it who did?

>>2923 >>2927 Who gives a fuarrrk. I've been with Lainchan.org for a hot minute and I give zero fuarrrks about the Lainchan.jp fiasco. Per the Lainzine Submission Guidelines: >the lainzine is ultimately shaped by what you send it. If you give two soykafs about Lainchain the above should motivate you to start creating content. Stop complaining and help make our culture awesome. Lainchan.org, Lainchan.jp, it doesn't matter. Whoever is busy producing cyb content and information matters. Shut up and create.

>>2928 >Who gives a fuarrrk Me, because I care about this community. >I've been with Lainchan.org for a hot minute and I give zero fuarrrks about the Lainchan.jp fiasco. Then I doubt you're aware of the specifics. They've repeatedly been very underhanded in an attempt to drive people away from here and towards their site and it's pretty obvious they're attempting to do so again. You need to understand that this is directly to our detriment. Good newfriend lains are going to follow that link, end up on a soykafty chan with a handful of posters, and then leave and not look back. If anyone says to them "you ever hear about lainchan?" they'll say "Yeah, I went there once, good zine but the site is soykaf." >Whoever is busy producing cyb content and information matters. Thing is the answer to "who" isn't Junk or shmibs. It's us, the people writing the articles. I was very happy with the idea that the zine would remain non-partisan in this senseless dispute but that's not the case. The case, as is clearly evident, is that they want to be partisan in promoting one site and non-partisan when collecting user content (i.e. profiting off our work, to our detriment). It's more underhanded lying to the community bullsoykaf. I wouldn't mind if they were honest about it but if they're going to sit there and blatantly lie, I'm going to call them out on it. Still waiting on an answer shmibs. If the zine is non-partisan, as you're happy to claim when accepting submissions, why is lainchan.jp written on the front?

>>2929 i answered it already. see >>2925 but yeh, before it said ".org" there and then it was ".jp" in the "rerelease" thing. some kinda last minute idunno wasn't involved with it thing. said multiple times "from here on". the op says "it's out, so time to quit worrying and move on" etc etc no point in revising the past; let's just worry about the next edition and make it cool... pls? sorry, maybe came across mean; just really stressed at the moment because of unrelated stuff. not your fault and not actually angry or anything. but yeh, see >>2928 junk had wanted it to be a "jp thing", stopwatch was talking about making it a ".org thing", and i'm trying to act as a middle-influence sort of to keep it from being either, because would mean pointless drama, like this right now, because stuff like that is what kills projects. "the two sites" have since agreed to it being a third thing that's associated but not part of, hence there being "zine" links in the bars on both that lead to the external site. so again, it'll be ok. am invested in this thing as much as you are. just point that caring towards improving things rather than being angry, please )=

>>2928 So if some corporation paid designers to give lainzine a nice cover provided it advertised their corporations name/website in the graphic on the cover its fine to pick it because its "the better design" when it clearly has some partisan interest in submitting such an image. Lainzine being prepared to sellout like that would be disgusting. >Lainzine 5 brought to you by facebook and alphabet But when someone makes a lainzine cover explicitly promoting lainchan.jp with presumably interests comparable to the situation described above when previous issues didn't promote lainchan.org on the cover despite being closely tied it's somehow acceptable. In previous issues there were apparently many submissions for cover art so i doubt the cover with the .jp branding was the only submission this time, so telling people to create content when they already were fails to address this. As shmibs effectively said, this issue did suffer from "partisan drama" that was personally beyond their control, but future zines will hopefully avoid this.

>>2930 >>2931 now I'm confused, was shmibs 341 or was that another lainon?

>>2931 >lainzine selling out the only money that exchanged hands was between Appleman1234 and Kalyx. Stop trying to spin this any other way. I'm nobody who was in this thread before, by the way.

>>2930 You pulled it once for typos shmibs. Do the right thing and pull it again so it just reads lainchan. (also already in "What we mean for space is allready a complicated matter" shouldn't have two ls). Here's the thing shmibs. Actions speak far louder than words and considering the underhanded bullsoykaf that's gone on trust is at a low. You want to be a middle-influence that keeps it "non-partisan"? Now's your chance. Don't allow a clearly partisan thing to happen. If this is not within your power I can only assume that you will continue to be impotent in your goal.

>>2933 >missing the point this hard Money wasn't the point

>>2935 If money wasn't the point, don't bring it up. Stop trying to push shmibs around. Whether you call it "nonpartisan" or not, you're still asking them to take your side and do what you say. If you keep doing that, there may be no lainzine to speak of.

>>2934 i didn't "pull it" at all ;-; >>2932 this >>2928 was not me. this >>2930 was. sorry... just too much going on righr now; can we talk about tis later, please?

>>2931 >so i doubt the cover with the .jp branding was the only submission this time You have to remember this is the second release. The first was before .jp existed. They changed .org to .jp on a cover they already had. >>2936 >you're still asking them to take your side I'm asking them to put actions behind their words and do what they said they were going to do and keep it non-partisan. >If you keep doing that, there may be no lainzine to speak of. Don't be ridiculous. So long as people are willing to write articles and somebody is willing to do the typesetting and so on then there will be a zine. >>2937 >i didn't "pull it" at all ;-; I don't know what to take from this? It's not within your power to fix this? It's definitely within someone's power, they did it once, and, if as you've said, everyone has agreed that this shouldn't be a partisan thing I'm sure they will agree that this is an issue. Even if only as a show of good faith it would be very important to restoring trust in you when you assure us that it will be free of partisan drama in future. >can we talk about tis later, please? Sure. RL comes first. A week sounds pretty reasonable to fix such a small thing don't you think? It can't have taken that long to change it to .jp.

>>2938 >I'm asking them to... you're asking them to do what you consider appropriate given their words, AKA you're just telling them what to do and claiming it's "nonpartisan." doing what you say is partisan. But why do you hate .jp so much? Did they ban you or something? >Don't be ridiculous. I should have clarified: there will be no zine here. they've cut ties with your site before, if you piss them off they can and will do it again. know your place.

>>2925 > we're working a system for multiple pairs of eyes proofing things at the end too. Where can I apply to be a proofreader?

>>2939 >I should have clarified: there will be no zine here. they've cut ties with your site before, if you piss them off they can and will do it again. know your place. Worst case scenario, we make our own separate zine. I don't think anybody wants it to come to that, but if they try to, "Cut us off," or whatever (which I've seen no indications they plan to do), that's what will happen. (I just want to stress again that that would be a possible reaction to a hypothetical split that nobody wants to happen in the first place. I really don't want anybody trying to make their own zine tonight then pointing to this post when it blows up into a bitchfit by the current zine people.)

>>2941 not answering my question, I see. Your silence tells me more than an answer ever could. >worst case scenario, we make our own separate zine you mean worst case scenario, *you* make your own zine. If the lainzine leaves, I'm out too.

srysly guys, we should keep making the lainzine without input from jp people. Why you say? Because jp doesn't have the population to supply enough articles for a separate zine. We can make and publish another lainzine without their help, they can't have a zine without our help. That's why if we let them take part in #5, they will paste jp links over every article people from here wrote, just like they did with #4. I call that thievery. We shouldn't let them steal our work. Think about it.

>>2939 >you're just telling them what to do Yes. Yes I am. More than anything what I'm telling you to do shmibs is be honest. Will the zine be partisan or not? Remember actions speak louder than words, if you're going to say the zine is non-partisan while producing a cover with lainchan.jp written on it, nobody in their right mind is going to believe you. >But why do you hate .jp so much? The underhanded bullsoykaf and I don't know if you've noticed but a lot of people here don't like .jp. Most people are doing the right thing and putting lain first, but apparently that doesn't extend to the people doing the covers for the zine. >doing what you say is partisan Bullsoykaf, no it's not. I'm asking that it be changed to the neutral lainchan rather than one particular site or remove it all together I don't really care about the specifics. I don't even really care about the cover at all, it's a small thing. I care about being lied to. I care about Junk and co attempting to deceive this community again. Junk very recently abused a position of trust here with the same motivation so you'll forgive me if I don't trust his words when they don't match his actions. >I should have clarified: there will be no zine here. they've cut ties with your site before, if you piss them off they can and will do it again. This guy >>2941 has it right. Moreover I, and the other people here at .org, will be supplying at least 90% of the articles for the zine. .jp simply don't have the users to produce a decent zine alone. Let's look over this thread and see how many people are writing articles. We've got myself, >>2915 , >>2918 , >>2920 . Over in the .jp thread ( https://lainchan.jp/%CE%BC/res/69.html ), they got nothing. .jp are not the ones in a position to make threats as to the existence of this zine. That's not to say I'm threatening it either. Wouldn't dream of it. >>2941 >I don't think anybody wants it to come to that No, nobody does. Hell, if they turn around and say "ok, we lied, we're partisan," that's the beginning of a conversation on the subject not an immediate "well then we want nothing to do with you" but, that's not a conversation we can have without being in full possession of the facts. I'd hoped that this was just an oversight, Junk or someone changed it and they neglected to change it again, but, as I've said, trust is at a big low right now and for good reason. It's a simple change. A show of good faith so that we can all be sure of where we stand and make our decisions. As I've said, actions speak far louder than words. >I really don't want anybody trying to make their own zine tonight Nah, if anything like that happens we're going to need to sit down and discuss it properly. Hopefully they'll make the changes, prove they're not just lying when they claim they've decided this should be non-partisan and we can all just forget about it. >>2943 Hey, whoa, let's not jump the gun. We didn't notice that .jp was written on the front for a few days and there's every chance that it was changed when they wanted it to be partisan and they overlooked changing it back. The zine's a long, slow thing. We can easily wait a week to be sure.

Non partisan = a zine, with no refrence to any other institution or website. I cannot honestly make a news website that claims to be non partisan when my landing page is a hammer and a sickle. Stop the bullsoykaf shmibs. It's not about hating .jp, but the fact that .jp has taken offensive actions against this website over and over again, i don't see this zine as anything different than when they displayed advertisements in the radio. You're hitting us in the face and asking why we hate you. It's not that we hate you, we just don't want to keep getting hit in the face, we have never taken offensive action against .jp. It's completely the other way around, .jp has been leeching from us from the very beginning. This advertisement on lainzine is another hit in the face, even if for now it's a soft punch it's clearly not beyond you to start striking more and more in the future. If lainzine is to be non partisan you shouldn't endorse .jp nor .org, it should be just a magazine, with no reference to anyone. Right now the way i see it, you're just doing what .jp has been doing since it was created: leeching off this website and its community.

Why the fuarrrk should .jp be in control of the zine? They are producing nothing, they offer nothing. Let them do their zine. It's not about hate but every single relation between .jp and .org has been met with a stab in the back from their part, what makes anyone think that this will be any different? Have you ever interacted with kalyx? How can you expect anything but disappointment and frustration? They will, most likely, take off our work and claim as their own. It's quite sickening. If you want an independent zine neat, but this is not independent, it was never independent. "Independent" = "we leech all your work and display on our website!". Come the fuarrrk on, i refuse to write for a community i built on anger and envy, which i legitimately despise. Not only that but they offer no labor, they're just sitting back while we work. And they will claim our work as theirs.

>>2946 I'll write for your zine if you're willing to format and publish something of lainzine quality.

>>2943 I completely agree. We only need someone with good image editing skills to take care of putting it together. Considering it's a community effort, it doesn't even have to be the same person for every zine. We can make an actually non partisan zine, not referencing us or .jp (or anyone, for that matter). This would allow us to take submissions even from /g/ without hurting our community in any way. Imagine it like a mailing list, there is no institution behind it, just people centered on a subject. Even .jp can contribute if they want to. Considering a zine from us would have no reference to them or ourselves. Just a product of Lain love.

>>2948 I dunno lainbro. If I write for lainzine, it will be to be a part of lainchan community. If it's going to be just another zine/blog with no connection to here, I might just write for any of the other 3463563454 blogs and zines on the interwebs.

>>2949 As it is i feel like i'm writing for .jp, which is not what i'm particularly looking for, considering their community doesn't have what to contribute with the zine. Having the same theme as it is now, except with no "administrators" per se would be better for everyone IMO, since anyone could contribute. The way it is know it feels like .jp is sitting on the beach waiting for us to do the work for them. I wouldn't mind a lainchan-zine either, what i would most definitely mind is a lainzine that is clearly managed by .jp. It's obviously a waste of my time and effort.

>>2950 I agree with literally everything in this post.

>>365 You're free to do whatever you like. Nobody is forcing you to stay anywhere nor visit anyone. It's not about "dumb, lazy and ugly", lainzine is not made out of wishful thinking. People put work into them. Work is an aspect of reality that can be seen, if you do no work, i know that you've done no work. I am unwilling to put my work into something that will most likely be for the benefit of a community i don't agree with and has shown no effort towards lainzine, this is what my post said, if it wasn't clear enough.

If you want to bitch about .jp, take it to one of the (many) threads on /q/. shmibs, I suggest you use a tripcode if you want to have any sort of consistent and sort-of-impersonation-proof identity. >>2928 >>2933 >>2939 These posts do nothing but encourage arguments. I find it hard to believe they were made in good faith. >>365 Then go.

>>2940 you can email me and i'll try to talk it over with peeps and see what happens. see https://shmibbles.me for where2mail, and thanks for offering. >>2941 there isn't going to be a "they" and "us", leastways because i'm not part of either a they or us, being staff on "neither site" and having no affiliation to take precedence over zine-ing and know enough LaTeX and design-things myself to keep it going in some form even if everybody else spontaneously gave up and left. have no reason to doubt either junk or stopwatch in their sincerity, though, and so am pretty optimistic about this can go (assuming people can quit perpetuating all this bleh...) >>2942 >>2943 >>2944 >>2945 >>2946 if you're going to start grr-ing, could you at least take it to one of the 3 or 4 grr-ing threads that are already up instead of hijacking this one? or, better yet, come yell at me on irc. there we might have some chance of a discussion happening, and you can talk to the other people who've seen me around for like two years now and can give you third-party information on who i am so you don't have to shoot-in-the-dark bogeyman-posting >inb4 m00se's answer is "whiny fujosoykaf"

>>2953 ah, good point, thanks testing4tripfig

>>2954 Yeah, can confirm: shmibs is 100% non-partisan in this issue. I'm not of course, I favor .org, but shmibs is pretty much as neutral as one can be on this issue. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know her.

It seems the majority of the people here at .org are against working with .jp on the zine since it is obvious .jp does not have the population for meaningful article contributions (aside from all the bs they've pulled before). If that's the case, why does the administration here insist on working with .jp in this matter? Why not listen to the community here and go our own way with the zine?

>>2957 Well, just create your own zine if you want to? What's stopping you?

I don't think the issue should be brushed off as just "haterzzz!!". People are legitimately concerned about how the next zine will go. My problem is this: i put in my time and effort into the next zine, it gets published and starts endorsing .jp, is there anything that could be done to prove that will not happen? This is not related to .jp and .org as websites, but their influence on lainzine. It cannot be ignored. As it is now i don't feel comfortable contributing to the lainzine, because i honestly think this will not go well and will end up as only .jp advertisement, which isn't what the zine should be about in the first place. Can these preoccupations be answered? If lainzine is to be non-partisan, why does it have affiliations in it? This looks, smells and feels like a waste of time to me, and anything i have against these huge evidences is just your word, shmibs, that isn't enough for me at all. Maybe other people contributing to the zine don't feel that way, i'm not trying to stir soykaf up for no reason, i just want simple answers. Not long ago ILikeBiscuits was also "non-partisan and neutral", how is this any different from the last 3 times something exactly like this happened?

>>2959 this I had about 3 articles to share (how to evade triangulation on GPRS network, subzero overclocking, doxing on social networks with OpenCV) and I don't think I want to share my articles now.

>>2959 I wholeheartedly agree with this lainon. Prove to me in no uncertain terms that jp won't be able to steal our work and slap their link all over our writings, and I will contribute my glitch cake recipe and a special way to prepare Amanita muscaria mushrooms to the zine.

>>2959 >>2960 >>2961 Shmibs is currently very much asleep due to college overwork but she told me that basically, the cover was simply there, the person who made it (intron) asked that it not be changed and future covers will not have any endorsements or affiliations whatsoever and neither will any other part of the 'zine.

>>2962 Sorry but that doesn't really answer anything, anyone can make cover art in a few hours. "The guy who made the art doesn't let us remove endorsement" is as fishy as fishy gets. It might be completely true, i just don't trust this story and the lack of action taken against it, if it is true. Either way, i'm really not comfortable contributing to the next zine but i wish you guys luck, if lainzine 5 goes well i might come back for 6, but this one is way too smelly for me to invest serious time in.

>>2963 Do as you wish, just don't harass people who didn't have anything to do with the process leading up to the currently released issue. She did say that maybe they could put in some sort of link to .org in the next number to make it all even out or something but, the general tone I got from our conversation was "the magazine will be independent from all this silly blargh."

>>2964 wait what, nobody is harassing anyone at any point, asking questions =/= harassment

>>2958 Why not just answer the question? Why is working with the other site a necessity? I seriously would like to know.

>>2966 go there and see for yourself https://lainchan.jp/%CE%BC/ >>2965 pic related

>>2964 >"harass" >"she" >no actual harassment took place here we go Present Day, Present Time! AHAHAHAHAHA!

>>2967 >pic related This is an open forum for open discussion on topic. If you think we are "hammering down" and being annoying that only shows how childish you are. Simply ignore our "harassment" then and we will wait for zine 6 because we don't trust current administration.

>>2924 >>340 >>2929 >>351 >>2944 Here. I'm jove btw. As much as I'd prefer to just be a random anon, I can't do that with my next paragraph. I spoke with Junk this morning. They're not going to change the cover to a neutral term. Apparently that would be a partisan action because someone from .org asked for it. He also said that the decision to be non-partisan came after this zine was released and that future versions will do a better job of it. There's also the fact that the artist doesn't want the cover changed. I'm going to try and talk with him and so we'll see. Right, we need to sit down and have a real talk about this. First off, the cover itself isn't really a big deal. They can shove links to .jp all over it if they like and it won't make much difference. As I've said from the start this is more about the principle of it than anything. It's about being lied to and that principle is as cleared up as it's going to get (on that note I don't think shmibs is a liar. She genuinely wants what she says she wants). So, what do? I'm happy to just submit my article to them, but I'll follow the community's lead as always. We've already got a split site over stupid soykaf. I don't want to see a split zine as well. There's no way 2 split zines will be as good as one whole one but I also want a zine that people can trust to do right by them. If even one person refuses to submit an article due to this lack of trust that's a loss. Hopefully we can clean this up in a way that satisfies everyone. So yeah, I'd very much like to hear opinions, especially from the people writing articles.

>>2957 >It seems the majority of the people here at .org are against working with .jp on the zine It seems to me like that's one, maybe two people. I've seen a lot more posts, including from both site mods and zine staff, saying that splitting thee (shortstaffed, niche-content) zine would be a terrible idea.

>>2970 >>especially from the people writing articles. I'm >>2920 I'm fairly satisfied with the explaination of why the cover is the way it is, and thinking I'll still submit what I was planning to. It might take a while to write, since I'll have to do a bit of research, so it might be on a timeline for issue 6 instead of 5. I would be disappointed if this becomes a regular thing though.

>>2967 >pic related what are you blabbering about, Lain? This is a thread specifically about lainzine. People want to contibute and are worried about the content of the next zine, so they question the intentions of those responsible for it. Nobody is getting in the middle of your conversation with your friend to discuss technicalities. What is your argument? Use words, not pictures, this is not 4chan. Nobody is even using fallacies or ad hominem, how in the name of sweet baby jesus is harassment happening? This is a thread about lainzine, lainzine is being discussed. This is really frustrating, lol. If you want unquestioned authority for the zine, why don't you write it by yourself?

>>2971 >It seems to me like that's one, maybe two people. Nah. It's way too early to say yet and it's not so hard to consensus crack on imageboards anyway. I'm gonna be asking around other channels to get a better picture as well. >I've seen a lot more posts Where? Counting the posts here (minus ones that are obviously the same poster) we get 12 saying fuarrrk 'em and 3 saying they don't care.

>>2970 >So yeah, I'd very much like to hear opinions, especially from the people writing articles. As you mentioned, it's about the principle behind .jp endorsement. Lainzine is something i would do between work and dealing with life, and as it stands now i'm not willing to sacrifice this time, it feels like i'm making content for .jp, or at the very least to be managed/controlled by .jp. This has all the evidence of another betrayal, another piece of work to be stolen and i'm just unwilling to do it in the current terms. Art and putting together a .pdf is a small effort in this equation, articles are what makes a zine and we have that. I'm unwilling to submit articles for the current zine for the reasons aforementioned. I can't manage a zine all by myself (nor do i want an identity) and i don't think anyone should have that responsibility, a community effort through git would make more sense to me and would eliminate the ego problem with the current zine. I also don't think a split is harmful (for us), since all .jp seems to be offering is cover art, which anyone can do in relatively little time, and even if they were offering the whole wide world, they cannot be trusted as proved time and time again. So at this point it's not even a question of what they have to offer.

The guy who changed the art posted this on the other site "explaining" why he changed it to .jp, although he doesn't really explain anything Hi, this is intron - cover artist for Lainzine 4 hoping to shed some light on these images posted. So you may have seen one of these covers being posted about on .org. The attached image sums up how this thing went from a .org sticker to a .jp cover. More in depth: back in Nov 2016 I approached Appleman1234 on .org with a prototype of a possible sticker design to help promote the site. Additionally, I asked his thoughts on what he thought Lainchan was to get some direction on the artwork. At the time he was still getting a feel for .org but I saw he had a very positive outlook back then - I can only hope that deep down he still feels the same even today. However, it was decided then that stickers had too much overhead to produce so he had suggested that this could work as a cover for Lainzine. So, I got in touch with editorial staff at Lainzine 4 (Junk & Stopwatch) to get their thoughts on the design. After some tweaks, it was approved and submitted Dec 2016… yes 2016. Quite the delay there that I hope will be mitigated in future releases. Fast forward to April 2017. Lainzine 4 finally comes out with the .org cover attached BUT shortly pulled after some mathematical typos in one of the articles. (the editorial process is another topic but errors in a technical article needed to be fixed as per the author's request). The initial release happens roughly around the delete/fork of .org/.jp - an event that is not possible to ignore. To reflect this, I initiated and performed the change from .org to .jp which was then approved and included in the re-release for Lainzine 4 - May 2017. I expected some controversy but whether it's .org/.jp/both or "Lainchan" omitted completely, people will find a way to take offense. As the fact still remains that Lainzine (as a whole) would not exist without the collective efforts of some admins at .jp. Go read the past issues and you'll know who they are. >anyone can make x but you didn't. Hey, the more zines the merrier! At the end of the day, I'd still work with all Lainons regardless of the .org/.jp fantasy larping but I don't believe it's possible to make something non-partisan apart from just… not making the thing. Will the cover change? I presented LZ4 staff with options to run with the .jp change or re-release with .org. I feel editorial decisions are important but of course, they are not always popular decisions. I cannot speak for them but I stand by my own decision to change the so-called "endorsement" from .org to .jp . Can you look past the ".jp" and read the actual book? Depends on whether the Lainchan community is more than a domain name to you. Fun fact: there are actually 3 "endorsements" on the cover. Look hard enough and you'll see 6. Look even harder and you'll see jesus-Lain-sama. As far as I'm concerned, Lainzine 4 is over and done and I hope this post helps in some way for the Lains that are late to the party. Looking forward, Lainzine 5 is your opportunity to be the change you wish you see. Get involved and create something.

>>2976 Made my first post at .jp (I browse just to keep an eye on things) to address Intron, copied here (with original domains instead of the censors I had to use to get the post to go through.) I don't understand why you couldn't just endorse both, ie, .jp on one side, .org on the other. (I keep getting blocked from making this post, so I'm seeing if changing the domains will fix that.) Sure, the editorial staff are more represented on this site (.jp) as opposed to .them However, the content comes from Lainons. I'd assume that some of the content created for the #4 was made by lainons now loyal to .org, and from reading the thread on .org, lainons there are clearly upset and feel betrayed. Ultimately, I think leaving issue #4 with an endorsement of one site over the other is hugely problematic in terms of attempting to sustain the lainzine; it gives .them users the impression that their concerns are not important and they should just suck it up and move on. While I think it is important to move forward, leaving these concerns unaddressed is a big mistake, as I see it. People will be upset no matter what - people from either side of the domain divide will want it to just be their domain, some folks will call for an end to the drama simply because there's controversy, and ultimately, there's no way to make every party happy. However, I think making this issue completely neutral (ie, endorsing both/removing the domain and letting 'lainchan' stand on its own) is the most utilitarian option, and the best way to assuage the concerns and criticisms of .org contributors, past and future, who are feeling like they got the soykaf end of the stick in this situation. >>365 This lainon is correct; this should really be addressed to the bereaved. Be prepared that some lainons are pretty unhappy, and that there's stupid tribalism on either side of the domain divide. However, it looks like someone has beat you to the punch. ------- Now, catching up with the thread, I've spoken to shmibs and >>2970 on IRC last night. My take on it is as above, but seeing as though this is likely not to be an option - as Junk has made his stance clear, the artist seems resolved to not change the image, and many lainons (including the shmibs and jove) are correct in their desire to push forward and ultimately focus on the content, I'm not sure where I stand, and what the community in general would like to do. There's no solution to this that doesn't leave someone with grievances. However, I think that those on the .org side that are feeling betrayed/a lack of trust in the editorial staff have some right to feel as much, and that it's best to address their concerns as much as possible for the sake of sustaining a singular, unsplintered Lainzine going forward. Unfortunately, without agreement from Junk and the artist, there may not effectively be a way to address those concerns. My first thought was to suggest that a call be put out for the creation of a neutral/dual-endorsement cover, but without access to the source material, this would have to be done in a culture-jamming manner (ie, editing and redistributing the .pdf, which is cool and cyb on one hand, but mostly making a divisive issue moreso.) Perhaps what's best, assuming no change of heart, is to have some sort of meeting between editorial staff, and interested contributors - akin to the AGM, but perhaps a bit more structured/correcting some criticisms of the AGM - to see if there's some sort of compromise that can be reached? >>2971 I think there's more than that, personally. I'm definitely one of them. As per >>2975 - I have no desire for the lainzine to split, but at the same time, I don't wish for any content I contribute to endorse a website that I don't stand behind. I have no issue with lainons that use both websites, or those that split and no longer use .org, however, I don't wish to have my content used to buttress .jp at the expense of .org.

>>2977 I legitimately do not understand why are we even having so much trouble to include .jp. It's like trying to make a troublesome person cooperate at work, you're better off finding someone else or doing things by yourself, the troublesome person will create...trouble, roadblocks, difficulties. Objectively, we don't need them for any aspect of lainzine. Not only that but they haven't been cooperative, so why bother?

>>2976 >"endorsements don't mean anything and come along or get out" Nice way to undermine the whole conversation. Either read the thread or don't talk about issues you clearly don't understand or don't care for. People write for the lainzine, these people are concerned about how their work will be handled. This is a legitimate concern, scarecrow'ing won't make anyone change their minds over the validity and administration of lainzine.

>>2978 Yup. They've done nothing but try to steal the Lainchan name. Their very existence is straining the community we've built here. fuarrrk 'em.

>>2978 >>2980 Because most work seems to have been done by people who are "at .jp" now? I don't know where you get that they contribute nothing, so far almost everyone who actually worked on the zine turned out to be "from .jp."

>>2981 Yea but actual content tends to come from lainons here. I'm certain if there was a desire we could find people to typeface, proofread, and make the PDF from lainons here at .org >>2971 As others have said it's more than one or two, considering I'm just one more who doesn't see why .JP is still in the picture at this site.

What do you guys think of using Git for a zine from us? I don't mean a.org zine, but an actually non partisan zine. Having the necessary tasks to make a zine, it would only be a matter of people contributing through github into each of the tasks. That way we wouldn't be dependent on only one person for the release date, we could clearly have an idea of how the zine is going and what areas need more work upon. The reviewing process can also be a task, so that we don't end up having to "reprint" the zine all the time. Basically, an open source zine. Having it centered over one or two people of .jp is quite idiotic and bound to cause trouble. Ilikebiscuits is problematic, seph is problematic, kalyx is problematic, each of them has caused trouble time and time again. I have no reason to believe it will be different with the zine. What do you guys think? Don't worry about who will have each responsability now, the point of this post is to lay out an alternative, after we decide on an alternative we can worry about implementation. TL;DR: open source zine on github, public tasks that anyone from anywhere can fullfil, everyone's work to be reviewed by everyone else. >>2981 The only people i know is the cover artists and the people on administrative levels. Writers are from here. Either way, that is more than enough evidence that this is not "non-partisan", you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

>>2983 Lainzine is already run using git...

>>2984 But it's centered, Lain. Being on git doesn't make it a community effort. As it is right now, we only see what we produce and the final result.

>Junk et al fork community >Redirect to their soykafty fork with misleading domain >soykaf on appleman and .org >Grab .org threads for their archive >Take .org content and our zine, put their url on cover Yet they still want us to submit to Junk's zine. Of which , the fourth volume openly soykafs on us calling us sellouts and so forth. Some say we should get along and coexist. See above greentext why we can't get along. The fork was created with hostile intentions. We shouldn't support bad behavior by contributing to a zine run by a self-serving soykafhead. How about we continue a new lainzine here. Still call it lainzine, host the back-issues on the new git/neocities/whatever site and let their zine fade into obscurity.

>>2986 Yeah, man, it's what i've been saying. We don't need to center lainzine in one person, it should be a community effort. Review process, putting the zine together, making articles and art, it should all be a community effort with no single person behind it.

>>2987 You still need editors for quality over quantity. If it was all OC written by the community, reviewed by the community, well, that's what this imageboard is. Maybe if we had a thread to vote for threads on this imageboard containing top quality OC that could be compiled into a zine for preservation. That would allow OC to continue being posted to the board instead of being saved for the zine. It would prevent some OC from being lost in the editing process, never to grace the board. It would also be a compromise between the "archive so I don't miss a really good thread or see the same old threads being created ad nauseum" vs the "never archive to maintain that feeling of novelty" camps. Just throwing this idea out there.

>>2988 >You still need editors for quality over quantity. I know, and editors can be a community effort, too. People edit, submit their work and are judged by the parameters defined by the project. Who do you think the editors for lainzine are? It's just community members, the only difference of what I'm proposing is doing it out in the open, and leaving the identity and ego behind. Making a zine from community effort doesn't turn it into "just a thread", because people will consciously try to write polished articles about specific subjects. The amount of work is considerable higher Having a closed-doors zine doesn't validate it as a zine, having people writing content for it does. Guys, i'm not saying anything new here, this is literally open source projects 101. What we have now is Junk as the single point of failure, what I'm proposing is not having Junk or anyone else responsible for the whole zine. If i'm to spend tens of hours writing and researching for lainzine, I'd feel more comfortable if i could watch the work and know what's happening beforehand. Lainzine as it is now depends on article writers to trust Junk, and i don't. And i'm pretty tired of trusting individuals at this point. Identity is poison in imageboards, specially for work like this.

>>2989

>>2990 Do you have any arguments against or in favor of anything i said?

>>2991 Not the same Anon you linked to but I like the idea of setting up a GitHub and organizing through there. Great idea.

>>2992 >setting up a GitHub Make that a gitla.in and I'd be on board!

>>2993 https://gitla.in/lainzine/lainzine-5

so one last time: i was not involved in pushing out #4 and am not interested in working on it / retconning. i don't have the scribus files for doing so anyways; stopwatch does. if one of you is interested in changing the past, you can go to that person directly and request those files and, if that person doesn't want to hand them out, you can re-typset the whole thing yourself from the current version and the gitla.in files for project 4 https://gitla.in/lainzine/lainzine-4 or just swap in your own cover with some kinda pdf-editor, i guess? all seems kind of ridiculous, though >>2992 >>2993 a gitla.in repo exists. everything that's submitted gets pushed to this repo. i have push access to this repo, so, if there ended up being some kind of issue at the submission end, you can contact me directly via irc or my site to have your thing added. people can obviously pull-request in the usual way as well, and that works. what this also means is that, if there ends up being some issue at the end with stopwatch compiling #5 into a final product, i could potentially fork the entire project and start working on a LaTeX-typeset version instead. it also means that, if you don't trust me to do that for some reason, you could fork and do the same yourself. don't believe that will be necessary, though, as, apart from all the being upset in this thread, things are going well for this issue, and we have some fun submissions and things already! also, feel free to send in "advertisements", like "i'm doing this cool project! come check it out!" or "let's have a tournament in this game! poke me at <place>!!". we have one in that format already, and would be cool to see more! -- tl;dr -- the future's going to be ok, everyone. just give me one release to show you. and, after that, if there's still a problem, can go ahead and reboot everything without any of the people currently trying to make it a nice thing involved. is that reasonable? also, updated https://lainzine.neocities.org/submissions.html with some extra info, so please take a look if you're thinking of submitting something! thanks ^_^

>>2995 ah, am bad at tripping; this post was me

>>2995 >>2996 They are talking about adding .jp links to the zine over there shmibs, and you're telling us that things will be ok over here.

>>2997 yup, and you're all talking about forking things and whatever else over here. and i'm talking about neither, because not going to happen because counterproductive. or they might happen, but, as i've already said, if they do, i'll have nothing to do with it and will keep working on a not-forked version and hopefully whatever other thing will die out. but, as also already said, not expecting that to happen either and, if it does, you can all "take countermeasures" as well at the time as well as anybody else. so yeh, can we be done with this? or, if you really want to keep talking about it, make a separate thread? everything's been said that can be said, basically. (though i guess this one's been completely spammed full of things at this point, so maybe no point now)

jove here again (fuarrrk I do hate saying that but it feels dishonest not to at this point). >>2981 This person has a point. Yes, articles are essential but editing and typesetting and so on aren't no work either. In fact they are really quite a lot of work. If you're going to talk about forking it you need to be sure that somebody (that means you) is willing to put in that effort. More than that it means that the article writers are going to need to trust you when you say you will deliver. If you're dedicated to this, please, first, read the rest of the post. There are better ways out of this problem. But, if you're absolutely set, get in touch with me. I'm on our IRC or jove at national.brewing soykaf.agency for email or post an email here and I'll get in touch with you or whatever really. In the same vein, it's not that I've anything incredibly meaningful to say, I just want to be sure that you're fully aware of the workload and willing to and capable of handling it. >>2995 >am not interested in working on it / retconning Right now you have a crisis of confidence and this is the easiest way to fix it. It's a token of good faith. If you can think of something else that fits please by all means. >i don't have the scribus files for doing so anyways; stopwatch does. You operate and, most importantly, are perceived as a team. It's not just you we need to trust, it's the whole team. >apart from all the being upset in this thread, things are going well for this issue, Yes, apart from the big, glaring problem, everything is fine. >>2997 That could be anyone and doesn't mean anything. It's not random .jp users we need to be able to trust. >>2998 >you're all talking about forking things and whatever else over here. I don't think that's something .jp can reasonably take exception to. >hopefully whatever other thing will die out. It's an awful feel isn't it? When you're hoping that a lainon project fails but that's what splits mean and that's why they're bad. We've had one recently, please, do whatever you can to prevent a second. >can we be done with this? This isn't going to go away because you keep asking for it to. As much as we all wish you hadn't you've a crisis of confidence. As has been made clear by the artist this is an editorial decision. He says: >Personally, I don't have a problem with a cover version of [.org] >Maybe we keep the Lainchan and remove the [.org]/[.jp] You've asked that people trust the editors (i.e. the same people who betrayed the trust placed in them when they had mod positions here, for the same reasons) just one more time but you must see that that's a pretty big ask. Right, everyone: There is another way to put all this behind us. We could just give them their one more chance. Even if you don't trust them and want to split there's still benefit to you in doing this. There are people sat on the fence. People who really don't know who they can trust or who, quite fairly, aren't comfortable trusting you just yet. If, in the end, the zine team do go back on their word you'll be in a much better position and, if not, we've gotten what we wanted in the first place.

Why is a community-driven lainzine a bad thing? What are the advantages of having it closed to a group of people? Seriously. Forking allows anyone to contribute, from /g/, 8chan or .jp, what are the downsides to it? A community project doesn't have to be trusted, you get in you see what is being done and you either agree or you don't. No trust involved. No single person responsible for administrative decisions. If the idea is to be non-partisan, how is a lainzine made by the community an issue?

Change the name and we have no isssues.

Just thought I'd make a public comment to allay fears - there is a git of the lainzine project up, and anyone is free to submit an article to junk0@openmailbox.org or lainzine@openmailbox.ch which is not managed by me exclusively. There is a community of people around the lainzine, much the same group who worked on every prior lainzine, who is now working on this one. They do not give a soykaf what happens in this thread. Check the gitla.in and our project thread on https://lainchan.jp/%CE%BC/ and see for yourself. Speak to me personally if you want to get more involved, whether by email or query on freenode. To newcomers, every prior lainzine release had links to some iteration of lainchan, removing / changing those would be revisionist and weird. Things will be different moving forward, but I'm willing to do exactly what the team is willing to do in lainzine 5. As I always have. The ethos is "if you want something, make it happen." If you want the lainzine to look a certain way, send us that content. Consider the fact that I was derezzed from this site and will likely have my post deleted for linking to ""The Enemy"" proof enough that I'm going out of my way to make this accessible to everyone. >>3000 It's already made by the community. I'm not sure where you got this idea that we're a secret cabal, but the files are right there on gitlain, as well as threads on both chans. There is of course private communication that always happens with a project of this size, as well as a process, structure, and infrastructure. You can try starting a zine of your own, but you'll find that it's not gonna be different. Why waste your time and effort when we are completely accessible?

>>3002 >It's already made by the community. No it isn't, the work is done by the community, submitted to you, and you decide what to do with the work. It's not a secret cabal, stop using hyperbole, it's distractive. Lainzine currently is centered on you, and that is a problem as exemplified by #4, you can decide to put giant swastikas on the cover and for the most part it would only be noticed on release date. When the lainzine website only links to your personal email as a way of contribution, that means only you have realistic access to the information. I cannot read how the other articles are going, or give advice to an article that wasn't really good, but it was almost good. What parameters are used for editing or how much art is still needed, all of that information is held by you, in the end. I cannot see the work of my peers. That is a problem i think should be resolved. That would solve the problem of trust, and if you'd like to continue contributing, you can with as much gravitas as anybody else. Saying "we have a gitlab" doesn't mean anything, git doesn't imply "community", what i'm talking about is community. What we have now is a project largely behind closed doors. Or do you honestly think everyone who worked on #4 would be fine with this vision of a "non-partisan" zine? Or that, realistically, people have a voice upon what articles are accepted and how they should be prepared? This is the antithesis of a community driven project. Your personal e-mail as a means of sending labor isn't very trustworthy, at least not for me, sending it directly to my peers on the other hand..

>>3002 >"It's already made by the community" >speak to *me personally* if you want to get more involved >If you want the lainzine to look a certain way, send *us* that content. >There is of course private communication that always happens with a project of this size, as well as a process, structure, and infrastructure. How can you not see how these words contradict themselves. You're literally saying "the community does all the work, we decide what to do with that work". This is not "by the community".

>>3004 Also, there are literally two posts in that thread you linked that are not from you, shmibs or stopwatch. >if you'd like to contribute, make an account on gitla.in and *request access* This could only be more closed if it asked if it had a subscription fee.

>>3002 >They do not give a soykaf what happens in this thread. >It's already made by the community. >we're not a secret cabal Am I the only one seeing the irony here? If the poeple in control of lainzine does not give two soykafs about what the community wants, then how is it a community project?

>>3003 >do you honestly think everyone who worked on #4 would be fine with this vision of a "non-partisan" zine? The thing is that, they were. You can see my comments on lainchan.jp about that: https://lainchan.jp/q/res/554.html#559 >Saying "we have a gitlab" doesn't mean anything, git doesn't imply "community", what i'm talking about is community It looks like you're the one being hyperbolic now. I said a bit more than that. >Lainzine currently is centered on you, and that is a problem as exemplified by #4, you can decide to put giant swastikas on the cover and for the most part it would only be noticed on release date. That's patently false. I ran drafts of the zine across several different channels before finalizing it. If you were in them, you'd know. We used to use #lainchan on freenode more liberally, but a little birdy told me appleman was telling zine people to fuarrrk off from there, so we have our own channel, but you will need to get an invite from someone. shmibs can do that and so can I, but we'd need to know your nick. >Or that, realistically, people have a voice upon what articles are accepted and how they should be prepared? They do. Do you think I edit every single piece myself? >Your personal e-mail as a means of sending labor isn't very trustworthy, at least not for me, sending it directly to my peers on the other hand.. Which you can do, by uploading to the git. You can also send to lainzine@protonmail.ch, which I just created for this release so it's not on the site yet. And is maintained by multiple people. My relationship to the lainzine with regards to identity and personality is too much to get into here. >You're literally saying "the community does all the work, we decide what to do with that work". You're drawing lines where you can't. I am currently helping somebody proofread one of their pieces, so that they can submit it, and it will subsequently go through the editorial / creation process. New people join from "the community" all the time, it's entirely within your power to do that. But we're talking about a situation where someone is magically not a part of the community after they join the zine anymore, so there's actually no winning if we follow this to its logical conclusion. >That would solve the problem of trust, and if you'd like to continue contributing, you can with as much gravitas as anybody else. Let me flip the script on you real quick. Submitting to who? Are they "the community"? Who is going to be the decider of this gravitas? Someone has to fill that role, although in our case we actually have anyone looking at the files free to say, "I don't think we should run this." But the bottom line is someone has to do it. >>3004 Let me clarify. You can email me personally, because I am here right now, and able to respond. You can also speak to shmibs, intron, or make a commit on gitlain if it suits your fancy as well. >>3005 All you need is an account on gitlain. I'm sorry that this isn't all on a billboard on the interstate, but sometimes being a part of things means being privy to information that is shared with the expectation of privacy (such as e-mail addresses). I have a feeling this conversation is not going to continue in good faith, so if you have further questions for me, speak to me on https://lainchan.jp/%CE%BC/res/69.html . Alternatively, e-mail me or contact me on IRC. Other people on the project will be in this thread, and they are just as capable to answer questions as I am. deuces.

>>3007 >The thing is that, they were >"I can tell you that no author on lainzine 4 has contacted me with their discomfort." Can't you see the difference between agreement and compliance? Not contacting you means nothing, what can i accomplish by contacting you? I wrote an article, why would i complain about the cover? And that's the problem, you're at the center, not the community. It's very, very misleading to say that "they were fine with it", when you're the bottleneck. I wasn't fine, i didn't contact you, because it's you. It's not a community effort, the community didn't decide anything, you did. >If you were in them, you'd know. Don't assume anything, it's cheap, Junk. I know you, i don't like you and i don't agree with you. >but you will need to get an invite from someone. shmibs can do that and so can I, but we'd need to know your nick. This is an anonymous community how can you not see the problem with asking for invites and using bottlenecks and accounts, how can you be so blind to a community you've been a part of for so damn long. Jesus. I can't speak for anyone else but i care about lainzine, i don't care about you, shmibs or anyone else. This shouldn't be centered on 3 people, there are no advantages to it, doesn't make any sense. Only creates obfuscation and confusion. >They do. Do you think I edit every single piece myself? No, sweetheart, that isn't what i meant. What i meant is that you're at the center, if i say "hey we should all praise satan in the next lainzine", the community will not accept or deny, you will be at the center. >Which you can do, by uploading to the git That requires an account and acceptance, by you. At this point i'm not sure if you're genuinely naive or intentionally misleading. >You can also send to lainzine@protonmail.ch, which I just created What, that isn't the issue, that was never the issue, creating another email doesn't solve anything, just changes the alias. It's still the same people behind it. It's still a small group behind the work of a larger community. >New people join from "the community" all the time, it's entirely within your power to do that. You're missing the point entirely. Everybody can have healthcare, they just need money. That doesn't imply healthcare is provided to everyone. Physically anyone can get it, that doesn't make it public. >Submitting to who? That is exactly the point. Anyone willing and able to do the work. There is work to be done, someone goes in and does it, that's all. In the open. Anyone can take it. Lainzine isn't the type of work that needs a center. It makes little sense to even have a center. >Are they "the community"? Who is going to be the decider of this gravitas? Nobody god damn you, nobody should have identity, nobody should have ego and e-penis to float around, this is the principle behind an anonymous community and it shouldn't be any different for lainzine. >Someone has to fill that role, although in our case we actually have anyone looking at the files free to say, "I don't think we should run this." But the bottom line is someone has to do it. Someone has, anyone should, without centering it around you.

>>3007 >All you need is an account on gitlain. I'm sorry that this isn't all on a billboard on the interstate, but sometimes being a part of things means being privy to information that is shared with the expectation of privacy (such as e-mail addresses). More hyperbole. You refer to "the community" using a thread where there's only you, shmibs and stopwatch, you provide your personal e-mail as a means of submitting work and you're calling anything that isn't that "posting on a billboard". "The community" is people who submit, read and care the work. You're not the community, and you're referring to yourself and your close group as if you were. Well good luck on issue 5, if there was any possibility of me publishing articles it's completely out of the window. You're delusional with a horrible inflated ego problem. Identity is poison.

Lainzine 4 is slow as fuarrrk to load so I compressed it.

>>3010 Thanks. It opens so much quicker now. Much appreciated

>>2943 >That's why if we let them take part in #5, they will paste jp links over every article people from here wrote, just like they did with #4. I call that thievery. We shouldn't let them steal our work. Thievery? Lainchan.org didn't submit content to Lainzine. Individual lains did. Stop speaking for everyone who wrote an article for Lainzine 4. I'm sure you didn't. Whether or not the authors agree with the move to .jp, they didn't submit their articles with the condition that Lainzine must continue to link to lainchan.org. Lainchan.org doesn't own Lainzine and never has. Why is the 'allegiance' of the editors such a big fuarrrking deal? Either read the zine or don't. And for the record: frequency of hyperlinks in Lainzine 4: lainchan.org: 1 lainchan.jp: 0 (z e r o) What is all the fuss about? How does two tiny letters on the cover of a magazine trigger this much fuarrrking screeching? Jesus.

what the fuarrrk is all of this 'partisan' vs 'non-partisan' talk? it's a domain name.

>>3013 >read article in magazine linking to .org >read same article in magazine linking to .jp totally different bias

Sorry, but any possibility of writing an article by me to this zine is now gone. I joined around time when issue 3 was released and enjoyed every one of them, and hoped I could contribute to it with the people that had same interests as me. >>3002 >There is a community of people around the lainzine, much the same group who worked on every prior lainzine, who is now working on this one. They do not give a soykaf what happens in this thread. You are free to take every printed issue and stick it up your butt for all I care, Junk. If I actually contributed to the issue 4 and you went and did what you actually did, I wouldn't contact you either. Liars just aren't worth my time. I would sure as hell would be pissed and I would hope you choke on the page that my article was printed on (even if digital), but why contact you? You already fuarrrked it up and published it, nobody would take it back either way. I'm finishing my bachelor thesis and I felt that the actual content (shortened, edited and translated) would make a great content next to some articles posted by other people from this community, but I'm just not willing to send it to bunch of liars with ill intentions.

>>3015 well ok...

>>3012 >Lainchan.org doesn't own Lainzine and never has Lainchan org was and still is driven by same community that makes lainzine. Lainzine and lainchan org come from same community. Lainchan jp comes as a cyst on already formed body. Lainchan org doean't outright control lainzine but everyone on org and everyone that already added to zine want the zine to be about lainchan.org and themed around lainchan.org Its not named lainzine for no reason, dipsoykaf

>>3002 You're so full of it that it's not even funny

>>3010 This is an old version.

Any info on what the cover will be like this time? (Sorry if I'm missing something obvious.) A cover that's a bit more subdued, closer to lainzine 2 would be cool in my book, but I'm not sure if that's an opinion anyone else would share.

>>3002 You where derezzed because you vandalized .org. Again, you and Seph vandalized. the. site. You shouldn't have done that if you wanted people to continue trusting you with anything.

>>3021 You're trying to wrest personal control of the zine to yourself, and yourself isn't a trusted entity. You're trying to hide behind the fact that "it's a team" and "anyone can submit articles, look, we have a git now." This is daycare-level politicking. What you should do is basically step down entirely and set a person who is generally trusted (the way you are very much not) as formal head editor with full project ownership of the zine. This is how it would work in adult-level politics. Or at least kindergarten-level.

>>3016 So that's all? Most of the posters are refusing to contribute to your zine and your response is "ok"...? I'm really looking forward to the next zine, articles like "How to post nothing worth reading" by shmibs, "How to accuse somebody of harassment when I'm losing an argument" by whiteline, "How to destroy community project and piss off both readers and contributors" by Junk and last but not least, "How to ban people that offer help but don't use my made up neutral gender pronoun" by Seph are truly something I'm looking forward to.

>>3023 There wasn't an argument to lose - the fact is, shmibs had nothing to do with the process of the current issue and is therefore entirely free of blame. She is doing her best while you're contributing nothing to this process.

>>3023 >How to ban people that offer help but don't use my made up neutral gender pronoun" by Seph lol nice meme. im sure thats exactly what happened bro.

>>3025 Not an argument Not even a refutation actually

>>3026 she pasted the same reason for the ban in like 3 or 4 different threads he was spamming in. only in one did she call him out for being an ass to her. but choose what you want to believe.

>>3023 Well, junk said it, they don't give a soykaf what the community thinks. It's their project, and they are going forward with it no matter what anyone says.

>>3028 >Well, junk said it, they don't give a soykaf what the community thinks. It's their project, and they are going forward with it no matter what anyone says. are you suggesting they stop publishing lainzine because a handful of people screeching about two letters on /q/? lel.

>>3029 why are you using cheap sophism? The choice isn't between "listen to the contributors of the project or shut the project down". Why are you talking as if it was? Do you realize we're not 5 year olds?

>>3028 FFS, Stop twisting their words. Junk said they "do not give a soykaf about this thread." He also said "if you want to see the lainzine look a certain way, submit that content yourself." he's clearly saying they don't give a soykaf about you if all you're going to do is use this thread to boss people around. >In general, the lainzine publishes what gets submitted. More recently, we've actually had enough content to reject pieces, but we've typically revised the content we have recieved instead to improve its quality. This practice will probably remain in future releases, which means that the lainzine is ultimately shaped by what you send it. If you think there's too little of something, consider submitting it yourself. If you'd like to learn something new from us, consider us an inspiration to learn, and share your findings in the next release. This has -always- been the lainzine ethos. You're just being deliberately obtuse because you want to make your own ripoff zine and slap lainchan.org on it. The project is now open source on gitla.in anyway, so if you want to be cheap bastard at least be honest about it and typeset your own soykafty release with ads in it, go right ahead. Can't say I'll read it.

>>3031 This. So literally nothing changes about lainzine except two letters on the cover and everyone loses their fuarrrking minds. Who honestly loved lainzine 1-3 because it had .org on it and hated lainzine 4 because it had .jp on it? If they exist, their opinions on lainzine don't matter. Carry on lainzine. Thank you for your hard work.

>>3032 You could argue that the ship is the same, but whose flag it's flying still matters.

What would we need to do to allow for basic peer reviewing on lainzine? I think like 2 reviews, nothing more.

>>3034 For content revisions or just what goes in to it?

>>3034 I requested access to the gitla.in project yesterday, but so far it hasn't been approved.

>>3032 Do the back covers count? Since you mentioned this I see a big .org on all of them and I don't think this was a problem before. >Who honestly loved lainzine 1-3 because it had .org on it and hated lainzine 4 because it had .jp on it? If they exist, their opinions on lainzine don't matter. Well, I think there's at least one guy out there that really hates the .jp on lainzine 4 but that seems to be more directed towards junk and the former admins involved with the fork.

There are a lot of people threatening to not contribute to the zine. So don't. If you are unable to contribute to the community in times of crisis, you aren't part of the community. Get the fuarrrk out. lainchan.jp can try to leech. They can try to steal content all they want, but it cannot last. If Lainchan.org is where content gets made, if that is where original ideas and creative minds reside, people will come here. Great things will always have imitators and cheats . They don't win unless they can get you to stop creating. The community is under attack. This kind of attack is only successful if: 1: We stop creating content. 2: The community turns hostile and poisonous. To those managing the zine, either: Remove all mention of either sites. Allow each contributor to announce their home site when they submit. I prefer the latter, because competition will drive content, and the site that gives the most to the community will be recognized. To community members: If you care at all about lainchan, you will ramp up your contributions. Squabble about it all you want, but you better have contributed first. Lain needs us now more than ever. Don't you abandon her because of a little leech. Create, and Lainchan.org will flourish. lainchan.jp will starve regardless, because they have nothing to offer. There is no point in letting Lainchan.org starve with it. As I said earlier: shut up and create.

>>3038 >If you are unable to contribute to the community in times of crisis, you aren't part of the community. Undermining the whole discussion with generalities and your own opinion as law isn't the way to go.

>>3038 >>3033 >The community is under attack. How? > lainchan.jp will starve regardless Then why are you flipping out?

>>3038 I more or less agree with you, but I think >remove all mention of either site is the way to go. Anyone has always been welcome to contribute to Lainzine. Identifying contributions based on their source just contributes to a dick-measuring contest between Lainchans. Lainzine should be above that.

I like the idea of just leaving it lainzine and not .jp or .org. But also flipping out isnt going to solve anything. If more people from .org contribute that speaks for itself. If you all just refuse to contribute then it truly is .jps. In some cases turning the other cheek is really valuable. It just makes the side flipping out look like an idiot, which right now is us.

>>3042 Wait, it is ".jp's" regardless of our contribution or lack of them. Contributing to a zine isn't like giving money on patreon, i'll put my time on that. Time i could be spending masturbating for the most horrible things your mind can conceive. Asking people to keep giving away their time for something they don't trust is just unrealistic. If, at the very least, it was a quick article that won't take more than a few minutes, then your argument makes sense. But it's not. For me to spend days of free time just to write a well researched, well written article, i must at the very minimum trust the people behind wherever i'm writing for. I'd rather create a blog from scratch than publish on lainzine, not because ".jp advertisement", but because i just don't trust the place. Have you ever not trusted someone? That's the feeling i have towards lainzine. At least that's my reason for not submitting. You're free to judge as you see fit.

>>3043 >y-you win because I let you win! Do whatever you want. Not everything is about you and that amazing article that's too good for any of us.

>>3044 It takes a special kind of asshole to interpret "it takes time to do work" as "my time is special and my work is unique!". Go fuarrrk your self and your misinterpretation of simple statements. The previous articles i published weren't unique, the ones i would publish now aren't. They take time and effort, i take time to review and research, you might not, i do and i'm not willing to invest time into something i don't believe in anymore. If my desire not to contribute anymore is interpreted as feeling superior to the rest to you, there is nothing i can do about it.

>>3045 Nah, it's pretty simple. You think you're special and we should all give a soykaf that you're not gracing us with your invaluable content. I'm sure someone would notice your absence even though you felt the need to announce it but whatever, good luck with that high horse. Seems like you fuarrrked yourself.

>>3046 Point the specific sentences that led you to this conclusion. I'm genuinely curious.

>>3046 I agree. If you don't want to contribute, don't. I am a contributor and I did all of what was mentioned. All the hard work. I did that and submitted my article, because I want to be a part of Lainchan. If you'd rather hold out for something better, do it. We will just have to make Lainchan without you. If you want to help make Lainchan everything we want it to be, join us. You can directly shape the culture. It is an exciting thing to be a part of.

Can we make the next zine together with .jp?

>>3049 I thought we still were? I know people are pissed off but I didn't see anything on here like where our zine is going to be so I dunno what's going on anymore.

>>3048 What is it about?

>>3038 >If you are unable to contribute to the community in times of crisis, you aren't part of the community. And who exactly created this crisis anyway? Contributors or the staff behind Lainzine? >lainchan.jp can try to leech. If you are contributing to zine that is pretty much run by Junk, you are letting jp to leech. >They don't win unless they can get you to stop creating. They kind of do either way. If people from here stop contributing, it's going to be because lainchan.org didn't want to cooperate, if we contribute, were are just letting them to have more exposure. >To those managing the zine, either Remove all mention of either sites. You are telling this to Junk, who pulled the original release to rerelease it with "lainchan.jp" on the front cover. I'm sure he won't do something retarded again, right? >If you care at all about lainchan, you will ramp up your contributions. So that Junk can take a year to not proofread them and then end up rejecting them, because surprisingly, people posted more? It took him a year to get a release, but just a few days to jump ships. >>3042 >If more people from .org contribute that speaks for itself. Yeah, too bad it is still going to be managed by people from jp anyway.

>>3052 >all this us vs them mindset Why are you so obsessed with which board is which? People post on both boards, there is no "jp does this" and ".org does that" >If you are contributing to zine that is pretty much run by Junk, you are letting jp to leech. jp could very well make the same argument that, because people running the zine also post on org, they are letting org leech. >You are telling this to Junk, who pulled the original release to rerelease it with "lainchan.jp" on the front cover. I'm sure he won't do something retarded again, right? He pulled the original release because 2 authors wanted their content changed. You acknowledged this when you said >So that Junk can take a year to not proofread them so you're being deliberately obtuse, probably for the sake of fear mongering. >Yeah, too bad it is still going to be managed by people from jp anyway. yeah, too bad it is still going to be managed by people from org anyway /s

>>3053 It's not about "the same community". ".jp" staff has taken offensive, realistic action that affects this community negatively. They've wiped the servers, redirected links and advertised on our then-radio. If this does not bother you and you feel like investing your time into lainzine, neat. Others don't, expecting the whole planet to feel exactly like you do, and feeling offended when they don't, is just absurd.

>>3054 >It's not about "the same community". ".jp" staff has taken offensive, realistic action that affects this community negatively. wtf are you talking about? we're doing just fine thank you. dont know why youre still butthurt over soykaf that happened weeks ago. what a ｃｕｃｋ.

>>3055 You are doing just fine. Others are too. And others aren't. You cannot force the way you feel upon others. You do whatever you think is right, others will do the same. I understand questioning the validity of article submission, but at this point you have no arguments left besides "i think you should think like i do".

>>3054 >advertised on our then-radio. hahahaha you must've ment "appleman included a radio url hosted by jp staff, without asking, which had jp related content, since it's jp run"

>>3057 It is now. It wasn't then. Ilikebiscuits lied, and afterwards became a moderator. This is why it was a problem for this community.

>>3058 who are the mods in this place now?

>>3059 The average user doesn't give a fuarrrk about who the mods are. Which is why the whole .jp thing is so stupid. They thought they were the community when they were just their own little exclusive club thinking they know whats best for the everyday user of this site.

>>3060 ok calm down it was just a question. I just know of appleman and seems to know what to do.

>>3061 Besides appleman and barracudu, i don't think many of them have identities. Ask on IRC, i'm sure someone will know.

>>3061 I apologise I didn't mean to come off so rude

>>3060 no. YOU dont care. some of us would actually appreciate more transparency. for all we know its 1-2 people (including appleman1234). ive only seen two capcodes since jp split off. that doesnt mean there arent more, but theres no way of knowing if they are just a secret cabal.

>>3064 Maybe it really is just Appleman doing all the moderation himself, and he uses capcodes as sockpuppets to keep anybody from knowing. Maybe the above is true, and Appleman is secretly an advanced AI built by the government or aliens or something. Or maybe we have over nine thousand mods working short shifts, each taking care of one job every couple of weeks. Maybe the moderators are all genetically engineered tarantulas.

>>3065 wanting to know if there are other mods is not paranoia. i never suggested he was sockpuppeting. it is a legitimate inquiry. ive only seen appleman1234 and barracuda. there could be more, but there is no way of knowing. wouldnt it be nice to know if there are more than two people running the place?

>>3064 Wait what does transparency means? The actions mod take are well described in the rules, why do they need a random name assigned to them? I don't think lainchan actively hides the mods, it's just something most people don't care about, also we're not selling mod positions for show off so..Mods seems like just common lainons that want to spend the time on community maintenance. If i was a mod i'd like to be anonymous. That's the whole point eh?

>>3066 I just like the idea that imageboards are run by tarantulas.

>>3074 >anonymous* tarantulas fixed.

Can I just say - with regards to final editorial I just let junk call it all - inc cover art updates. Also I must say this should have been out way sooner. And the proofing delays were nowhere near justified for the level of scrutiny achived. I will push for all future issues to not have .org or .jp at all. I have no issue with this .org site at all, and was just as surprised as the rest of you lains with the whole .jp thing. The lainzine needs to be created from all Lains - don't let them divide and concur!

>>3150 concur* Conquer

So, is lainzine dead then?

>>3313 Dunno, some people don't seem to want to contribute anymore. No clue if they have enough submissions for the next zine, they probably do, since a lot of stuff gets denied anyway from past editions. I believe that it isn't dead, but probably wounded.

>>3313 Haven't read anything on here or jp saying otherwise so I think it's still going. Unless you're talking about the .org zine? There was a buzz about starting a new one but I think it fizzled out.

In the future the zine should just avoid having either .org or .jp on the cover. It should write just 'lainchan'. That is the mentioning of .org or.jp should not be derezzed, but they should never be specified unless there is a need to do so.

>>3330 EXACTLY - This is what I will push. I dont want the project to split - I have put is tooo much work into creating the last 2 zines! Please people I give you my word there will be no funny split and no .org or .jp will be pushed - just Lainchan.

what's the maximum length that an article can have? I have one ready to be submitted but I'm afraid it's too long

Is there a place to buy physical copies of all 4 issues? Id really like to have a framed collection of these as they progress.

>>3354 The custom with modern zines is that it's just a pdf. If you want a paper copy, you print it off yourself.

>>3350 There's no limit but it may be split into several parts depending on the details of your piece. You can always inquire at lainzine@protonmail.com to see what your options are. >>3354 There was a big print run a while back for 1-3 but >>3355 is right, you can certainly print off your own copies as you like. As far as I know there is currently no print on demand solution in place.

Should Lainzine talk about the .jp/.org thing? Lainzine seems like a neutral ground, a messenger that could reach both communities, and could put forward an effort to provide an unbiased neutral view on the subject. Maybe just giving a bit of a timeline, reporting on the events without providing opinion. (I ask because whenever I ask about the split I get responses from people who sound angry and want to go to war with the "other" side)

>>3452 I don't consider Lainzine a neutral ground, despite Junk saying that he wanted it to be one, before he defaced this site and moved to lainchan.jp. I have been meaning to make a static page with an overall historical summary of events since I bought the site, and events prior based on my notes, and the logs and data I have, but I haven't done so yet , because of the fact that doing so feeds the drama machine and people will just continue to accuse anything I post of being biased, despite any disclaimer and linking to first hand sources and quotes on my part. If I made such a static page, I could also make it as a static image with a timeline or as an article for the Lainzine, but I can't guarantee that it would be published.

>>3453 Well, it would be really nice to have but i agree that this kind of thing would only feed the drama, which seems to be dying out except for the people from jp that come here to intentionally derail threads. But even that is less frequent, creating such a page would probably increase this issue.

>>3453 sticking DRAMA things in the zine is not a good idea. what with all the VERY OPINIONATED-being people, anything at all would be making somebody unhappy. more harm than good. also "Lainzine" is not "junk" (just as you are not this website X_X) but yeh, given the general consensus thus far from pretty much everybody i've talked to about this, don't think there will be any mentioning "the thing". fits with how the submission guidelines thing has been since always too: cool things rather than drama-ing also, would making a separate thread (not right now, but in a bit when there's more to be said) that's actually about lainzine5-ing be a problem? this one kind of derailed to all heck and back...

>>3458 Don't think that's a good idea, Lain. Every thread remotely about .jp gets derailed (apparently by the same people, but i can't know for sure). If it's an announcement thread, or a thread with specific requests, maybe it could workout since derails would be dealt with by mods, but a generic thread would certainly go down to hell just as quick as this one.

>>3459 meant more like actual questions / concerns / response / discussion relevant to the zine, with any of this drama barf being redirected to here >>3313 nopes. we have just about enough on the article-side to fill this issue and are working more on the dressing it up part now >>3032 ah, thanks. motivating ^_^ >>3354 >>3355 there've been some group buy threads in the past. don't know who was running them. can always grab it and print yourself, yeh. also, this next issue should have both a digital (optimised for donloading / screen viewing/ etc) and a print version! >>3350 there's been some talk about doing certain pieces as like a multi-issue thing, serialised. something like 6-8 pages max is probably a good upper limit, though, for keeping it all together also, sorry to everyone for not getting back in here and responding to things sooner. was kind of scared out after the thread exploded before

>>3458 >very opiniated For fuarrrking sake Is retelling objective history now an "opinion"? How about we make this into a list of events and make people see what happened then thinking for themselves?

>>3458 I didn't say "Lainzine" is "Junk", however Junk does remain a primary contributor to Lainzine (at least as per his name in the submissions page along with yours, and according to his twitter and posts elsewhere), there are of course other primary contributors to Lainzine including yourself , STOPWATCH, intron, etc. Feel free to make a Lainzine thread in /lit/, but this thread was doomed to become a /q/ thread the moment you posted the OP containing partisan drama, even if this was unintentional or the opposite of your intent. This lead replies to this thread's OP to be less about Lainzine, and more about the drama, and the Rule 6 breaches mixed with quality discussion made the thread unsuitable for /lit/ and hence it was moved to /q/ , rather than having discussion deleted. If a new thread is made on /lit/ , it should be focused on the writing and literature aspect of Lainzine.

>>3461 the objective history has already been told in several conflicting iterations, each of which has been summarily ignored. any "reporting on the manner" would either be flat and pointless or read as bad investigative journalism, and either would be enough to start up a flame war. so yeh, just dropping the topic here. >>3467 i meant more that (at least for this issue since i've been doing things; can't speak for before now) things have been a joint effort, with no one person "calling shots", and, though junk can get opinionated about things, he's kept it pretty separate from zine stuff so far. so yeh, what a single person in a group thinks or does elsewhere shouldn't matter within the context of the group if it doesn't affect things. ┐( '＿` ;)┌ about the submission page, though: we were going to be cleaning it up and things, make things more succinct and orderly and comprehensive etc. do you have any opinions / suggestions / thoughts on that?

So do we have a general Consensus on a publication date for zine 5? I mean, it's been awhile....

I was thinking about writing an article about data compression with the example of the LZ77 algorithm (which is quite easy to implement) and explain how the Burrows-Wheeler transform could improve a lot the compression rate. Does it sound interesting to Lain's hears ?

>>4540 that sounds nice!

>>4540 That seems interesting to me. The Lainzine thread is here: >>>/lit/1324