/cyb/ philosophy

Who are some cyberpunk philosophers I should check out? I've been hearing whisperings of the CCRU and Jean Baudrillard. What else is there? I'm open to esoteric and occult reading too.

Avoid "esoteric" and "occult" reading, that stuff is little better than religious nonsense, rots the brain. Check out stuff like "philosophy of the mind" from all authors, you'll learn a lot. Philosophy in general, in point of fact.

>>5404 I want to understand what the fuarrrk Kantbot and Oneohtrix Point Never are talking about. Those guys are speaking a different language and it pisses me off. I want in.

>>5405 It's basically all made up. You could weave your own fiction like theirs, and have your own exclusive little club. It seems inscrutable because it's designed that way, that's the intent, that's the goal. It looks profound because without the "special special handshake of oblivion" and countless wasted hours, it is completely indecipherable. Don't waste your time. Hell, even Harry Potter is a better read and actually conveys useful ideas better than these quacks ever could.

>>5405 >>5406 It's merely a social signifier for somebody having the lacey white cuffs it takes to spend all your time with your nose in a book. Never trust these fuсking academics and intellectuals. They're swindlers and liars. God damn I hate philosophy so much. Oneohtrix Point Never got to rut Dasha Nekrasova I guess but so has like 400 other dudes, not a very exclusive club

>>5408 What's the scam? That they have something interesting to say, but are actually saying nothing at all? Are you saying it's all performative? I think I agree, to an extent. But surely it's not all bullshit. Some of it must be worth pursuing. Can you elaborate further why you hate philosophy?

>>5409 I like to call it intellectual masturbation

>>5408 The only good philosophers are ones like Wittgenstein that did their philosophy while sat in a trench wearing a gas mask thinking between shells going off.

>>5409 >>5412 >>5413 I think it's more complex than black and white. Baudrillard has a lot of interesting stuff to say, for instance, as a touchstone. The thing is you need to find topics that are actually interesting to you. Some of it can be quite abstract, and sure, a little masturbatory, but that isn't a hard and fast rule you can actually rely on.

>>5412 >>5414 yeah that's just me being ungrateful. Used to read Schopenhauer and Nietzsche when I felt down, the first one to feel like someone gets it, I'm not alone, and the second one to help me push through to the other side and motivate me. so yeah I don't think it's complete bs, depends what you do with it I guess. >>5403 might wanna check out Robert Anton Wilson and his pal the mushroom guy, Terrence Mckenna

>>5405 if kantbot is that guy yelling in the street about trump completing german idealism and atlantis returning, I don't think you should don't bother

>>5403 Nouns in no particular order cyberpunk is a fuaark philosophy is a fluaaaaaaaaaaaaark 30000999777777779999999 dead wireheads PRESENT WHALE PRESENT TIME: The Exegesis of Phillip K Dick ^This is the raw, radioactive source of all cyberpunk, read and comprehend at your own risk^ The Three Body Trilogy Paul Laffoley The Strugatsky Brothers Robert W. Chambers The Philokalia The Veil of Isis Asimov William Gibson China Meiville Manly P. Hall OXV: The Manual Nick Bostrom The Illuminatus! Trilogy by >>5416's R.A.W., who was friends with Alan Watt A Piece of Blue Sky Viktor Schauberger C.S. Lewis' Perelandra Trilogy The Zero Theorem Fantastic Planet Alfred Korzybski van Vogt Cyberia Introducing Neals Sea of Machines R.U.R.

Do people here really think basic Kantianism and cyberpunk are indecipherable intellectual masturbation? I thought this place was supposed to be smarter than 4chan at least?

>>5420 OP here. I mean, it interests me. I think there are elements of pretension to it but I know it's not all just noise.

>>5420 no, it becomes intellectual masturbation when a certain philosophy becomes decipherable and you decide to write your own pile of soykaf on top of it, obfuscate it even more and call it a philosophy, then use that as proof of your intellectual superiority when no one gets it, until someone smarter than you does the same thing to your philosophy. the circle jerk is thus complete. point is, there's nothing new under the sun

>>5425 And what part of Baudrillard and the CCRU does "no one get"?

>>5425 Spoken like a true, closed-minded simpleton. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean there is no value. Also, the fact you seem to think that there's "nothing new" proves how closed minded you are and how ignorant you are of what you don't know. --- To the rest of you, reading philosophy will offer you a lot of potential insights. Don't worry so much about specific philosophers, focus on topics. There's a lot of big names, etc. but that isn't the point of philosophy. The point is to develop rigorous argumentation and analysis for specific ideas and points of view. Some philosophers are better than others at making themselves clear, so you'll learn to either take the care necessary to read them, or just find others to relay the same ideas in a more clear and concise form. A lot of naive readers see a lot of the writing as "pretension", but generally that just points to the nativity of the reader who hasn't developed as extensive of a vocabulary or close reading skills. So, invest in a dictionary and exercise some patience in your reading. Ask yourself and others questions, and you'll find the crux of each matter, one by one. There's a lot of great works out there, both to agree with, and to vehemently disagree with. Don't be a passive reader, engage the works.

Ted Nelson and John Ohno. Ignore all the larping plebeans who write speculative fiction for money.

>>5419 I'm reading through Rushkoff's Cyberia now (picked it up specifically after some digging regarding its connection to lain), and I must say it's a good survey of some of the roots of that 80's/90's wave of cyberpunk. My favorite pieces are by far Rushkoff's philosophical additions, such as the concept 'Cyberia', though. It inspired some of my own writing trying to capture the essence of how Cyberpunk has influenced the present. If anyone's interested, I can link that essay. I'd also add Ed Regis's Great Mambo Chicken and the Transhuman Condition, which gives an overview of some of the more mainstream waves of transhumanism that have run through the sciences. Like Cyberia, it's also a bit outdated (released in the 90's) and I haven't finished it, but it's useful for those who want to have a better handle on some of the history of how Transhumanism emerged and what its proponents have advocated for.

The only good thing to come out of the CCRU was Mark Fisher. I found him fairly inspiring in my own studies, even if some of his analogies grated me a little. Nick Land's writing is the most bullshit thing I've ever tried to decipher.

>>5430 Ted Nelson is great. Which doesn't mean he's right (I often think he's full of soykaf), but he's highly enjoyable to read.

>>5419 Why would someone with an interest in cyberpunk need to read Manly P. Hall? I must admit, with regards to literature, I am a pleb as I'm unfamiliar with the vast majority of the names on that list you've produced but nonetheless, I do recognise Manly P. Hall's name. I did formerly study the occult and so I do know his name. My issue is that, as far as I know, there's nothing occult about cyberpunk. Tell me, what are the links between the occult and cyberpunk, if any?

>>5486 There is little written connection between cyberpunk and occultism, but if you know your stuff you will know that transhumanism and spirituality make for a unholy marriage. There is also the fact that occultism bases itself on geometry and math, magic and computers make for an interesting mix. Cyberia is the closest that i know of that touches on it. You might also look into the illuminati and their new world technocratic "utopia", which they refer to as "the new atlantis". Computers/occulitsm is still a fairly new field with much ground to cover i think.

>>5470 To understand young Nick Land you need to have a fairly deep understanding of Deluze & Guattari's "capitalism and schizophrenia" series, which in itself is lengthy, complex and filled with continental philosophy jargon that takes a fair bit of groundwork.

>>5403 how much philosophical grounding do you have? here's a general guide for philosophy: Pre-Socratics -> Diogenes -> Plato -> Aristotle -> Epicurus -> Zeno of Citum -> Politus -> St. Augustine -> Anselm -> Thomas Aquinas -> Descartes -> Thomas Hobbes -> Spinoza -> Locke -> Berkeley -> Hume -> Kant -> Schopenhauer -> Hegel -> Nietzsche

>>5517 Where does one go from Nietzche? His wisdom is still incredibly pertinent, but I'm hesitant to say philosophy ends in the 19th century. The dude's been dead for 120 years, the world is a totally different place. I think Camus and Sartre are worth a read. But even they wrote in a completely different climate than today. I think the post modernists do a great job at describing today's philosophical crisis. Vonnegut, Pynchon, DeLillo, David Foster Wallace, Joseph Heller... Anybody worth reading from the past 25 years? I cracked open "Industrial Society and its Future," and I'm shocked at how well it predicted the growing culture of Leftism in America and the disastrous effects of unchecked industrialization.

>>5517 Rate these lineups.

>>5416 When I read philosophy I know I have to check with where my intentions are for reading are to begin with, because you're completely right about it being "intellectually masturbatory". My view is that you shouldn't be reading philosophy for the sake of the knowledge of philosophy, to simply flaunt it around though it's incredibly easy to do so, but as a tool to extend your range of mental capacities, help yourself, and hopefully others with bad ideas on themselves or the world. Philosophy has always been able to provide a different view of the world that gets me to think and ask questions for myself. It helps me explore myself and see where I can do better. Sorry to be "that guy" who recommends Jordan Peterson, but his explanation of how ideas should be transformative rather simply received and "reflective" from Nietzsche's BG&E I find incredibly useful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taF8yk7MRV8

>>5536 >Sorry to be "that guy" Not as sorry as you should be.

>>5535 Plotinus was Egyptian

>>5535 beckenbauer is my favourite philosopher

Philosophy and cyberpunk aren't compatible. You either look for fancy aesthetics or you seriously start pondering stuff. Your question sounds like "what are some lipstick mathematics?" or "what is a vegan linux kernel?" It's just two entirely different things.

>>5409 You want something interesting? Keep in mind that Baudrillard was writing at the end of the concept of Capitalism; read into his works with that mindset, don't pay too close attention to the socialist affectations, and you can start pulling some interesting info. 1. Simulacra and Simulation (PDF pretty easy to find, not a long read); gets into his central conceptual work, essentially the Fake becoming more real than the Real. Do some of your own reading, I'm oversimplifying. 2. America : Baudrillard's analysis of the first Hyperreal Country. 3. The Agony of Power; one of his weaker works so far imo. Focuses really hard on the Marxist Master/Slave dialectic. Dunno how useful it is. Still reading.

>>5542 You could ask why the cyberpunk aesthetic is so appealing and why we tend to be attracted to it's look. Or what in our cultural experiences has led us to develop a fantasy world like this and like it, opposed to something else. Obviously the genre has exploded in the past 20 years, so how come? You can totally look at "cyberpunk" through some form of philosophy, but having a "cyberpunk philosophy" is different and would probably have to delegate what constitutes "cyberpunk" values.

Anyone here a fan of Camus?

>>5430 where can i find Software Versus Capital??? if Ohno is a true /cyb/ guy it should be available for free somewhere

>>5554 I am since I found The stranger at a second hand book shop a few years ago. I really like his stuff, I would recommend The Fall. >>5720 Been there too, yeah looks thin but it is really dense

Does this count https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/tiqqun-the-cybernetic-hypothesis

>>5404 stfu analytic pleb

>>5408 stfu pleb

>>5850 >>5849 Cope harder deluded retards.

>>5546 "The Gulf War Did Not Take Place" is also worth reading.

Jacques Ellul - The Technological System But the most cyberpunk philosopher is yourself. If you think about it, all the philosophers pulled all of their theories out of their asses. They cherry-pick observations and induce or deduce purely imaginary constructs that have some curious correlation to the world. Eventually, reality drifts far from some towers of philosophical lies and they lose actuality, so there's always demand for more. If you have survived reading through a few classic philosophers and Baudrillard - you should know what's it all about and can try philosophizing on the cyberpunk-ish state of the world yourself. If you also do drugs (stimulants that prevent you from sleeping are preferred) - you may come up with something really cool, like neo-China that would come from the future to rain relativistic wolfram rods from orbit on all the crime and filth below.

>>5403 Like many have alluded to, the most cyberpunk philosophy progression would be (in my opinion) Michel Foucault (is important for his "disciplinary society theory" which is important to look at for the groundwork of the transistory state our society is in atm) Deleuze and Guattari Baudrillard (especially his essay on control society's which is pretty easy to understand but you need at least a grasp on Foucault to understand) Ccru Nick Land (ignore his later bullshit) Mark Fischer Reza Negarestani (which is really fuarrrking hard if you aren't that well versed in general philosoph, even I have troubles sometimes and I have a degree lol) Pic related is the numerogram by the ccru, a system trying to mix occultism (particularly hermeticism) with philosophy. There is a great free ebook by some guy I forgot the name of on it that you should be pretty easy to find.

>>5534 while there are some western philosophers who have made progress in their niche focus, I don't think any of them have managed to top Nietzsche. maybe try reading some eastern philosophical texts.

I recommend Deleuze's Nietzsche as a gateway into "cyberpunk philosophy", followed by anti-oedipus BEFORE even reading the wikipedia page on accelerationism.

>>5404 >religious nonsense, rots the brain. filtered

>>7339 You will never be a crusader

This was the only thread mentioning Baudrillard, so I'll address this on here. There was some time ago a thread almost solely dedicated to discussing Baudrillard's theories, but it seems to have been driven out of Lainchan's meme pool. Someone there mentioned of a book by a Japanese (?) scholar from the 90's (?), but I can remember neither the title nor the author. Does anyone remember, know or have some educated guesses as to which book/author it could be? There were some people on the thread who highly esteemed the book, and if I recall correct, its main focus was applying the Baudrillardian insights into the 90's-2000's Japanese culture, but was still easily accessible in terms of explaining Baudrillard's theories.

>>7342 There used to be a baudillard thread, some pretty good discussion happened too. idk if the thread got archived tho

>>7343 Yeah, I 'member. But I doubt it has been archived, as lainons aren't too exactly known for their enthusiasm for data storing. Wasn't it around 2020 Autumn or last year's Spring at the latest that the thread was still alive?

>>7342 Damn do anyone know about this book/thread? It could help me in my thesis.

>>6673 I feel as though anyone that is relatively able to work within a more modernized framework or notion (Deleuze, Derrida, Foucault, Lacan/Zizek) can be considered cyber in a certain sense. That’s probably about as realistic and practical as you’re going to get.

>>7342 Hello lainons of two years ago, is the book youre reffering to Otaku Japan's database animalsby Hiroki Azuma?

>>7342 It’s Structure and Power by Asada Akira. It became very popular in the 80s and 90s. Even Gyarus would buy it and use Baudrillard style phraseology to look cool.

>>5403 p much everything after ww2 could be considered "cyberpunk philosophy" since thats when cybernetics as science appeared in 1940s and its effect was so large and deep that at this point there is no field of thought that was not affected. I suggest starting with the roots the "cyber" part is thankfully very well documented while "punk" is not so and is full of bullshit so i guess go with your tastes ||now an actual answer based on my opinion: my suggestion is to read conspiracy theory stuff. programmed to kill, eye of the chiknenhawk, king kill 33 stuff like that. Social control is actually the primary application of cybernetics and is the best way to get into the heart of what cyberpunk really is. I belive that pmuch all good cyberpunk stories are hi level conspiracy theory stories from deckard suspecting that his humanity is engineered to gits:sac goda engineering a cyberbrain virus for social control||