Japanese Literature

Can we discuss the greatness of one of the country who has some the best literary outputs of all times? Authors like Mishima, Dazai, Murakami and many others.

I love Mishima. I would love to learn Japanese to read it in it's glorious language. But even in french there are very good translations that transcribe the feeling. It's like it was wrote with a cold knife. By the way I recommend viewing the movies "A life in four Chapters" and "The day Mishima choose is destiny".

Cool that you'd bring this up. I just started Spring Snow a few days ago. My favorite piece of Japanese literature is probably Thousand Cranes, which I totally need to read again. I was going to comment 'what is there to discuss', but I'm a fanboy and there is no need to create meaningful dialog. I just want to spread my love of Kawabata. I would however, enjoy reading someone else's book reviews and knowing what messages they have extracted from the greats. Maybe there is no message and we happen to share a similar type of resentment for the people and things that have caused us suffering at least that's the feeling Kawabata usually gives me.

>>5059 I read my first Murakami books a few months ago, Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World (that's a very long english title btw). Really enjoyed it, plan to read more of his books, but haven't took the time to really dig into his huge bibliography, besides one or two that I'd like to read

>>5072 Murakami is one of my favourite writers. His books are some of the comfiest you'll ever read. Nothing beats murakami in that regard. Anyway since you've probably started with the least "murakami" of his works I suggest you to take a look at his more surrealism driven novels (Kafka on the shore, 1q84, Windup Bird Chronicle, Sputink sweetheart) as well at his more realists ones (Norwegian Wood, Colorless Tsukuru Tazaki, South of the border: West of the Sun). The two I reccomend the most are Kafka on the shore and Norwegian Wood. I saw a chart about him somewhere on the Internet but I forgot to download it, too bad.

>>5073 I've only read wonderland and wind up bird and liked both of them a lot (although I preferred wonderland). What should I read next?

Norwegian wood was the first novel I ever had any interest in reading outside of school curriculum, I found it on one of 4chan's literathursday jpg/rar threads. It was a huge shock to me at the end when I found out that the characters were all fictional, because they were so full of life and story, I felt tilted that someone could just make people up. Following that route I read wind-up bird which informed my late teens & got me interested in Manchukuo historical details. I believe somewhere, could be in Kafka on the Shore (which was 'eh' imo) he mentions Natsume Soseki's "The Miner" which is in my top 5, I've read it in native Japanese, it's so plain but it takes you so deeply into a person's thought process, it is so relatable to me. Now I'm reading Yumeno Kyuusaku, which a lot of his works are pretty similar in that they're so grim and someone falls down a mine-shaft and becomes a ghost every other page, but. There is a deepness inherent in the language that comes across even in translation, it used to be an orientalist preoccupation for me admittedly, but I find modern japanese culture with the emphasis on cute soykaf really off-putting these days, the traditional stuff is rich with meaning, double-entendre, wordplay, simplicity, elegance, fun and I appreciate it on a more equal level.

>>5076 Same anon, I felt exactly the same with Norwegian Wood. The characters feels so real that you can't help but empathise with them. Absolutely brilliant. It was probably one of the books who hooked me up the most, reading it was like being there in person. >>5075 Try Norwegian Wood if you want to know the more realist murakami style, otherwise, if you want do dive deep into surrealism try Kafka on the shore or sputnik sweetheart. The latter is really underrated imo and it's a little shining gem.

>>5077 I agree how Sputnik Sweetheart is very underrated. I personally like it better than 1Q84

>>5104 How is 1q84? I want to read it but the length of the books kinda throws me off.

>>5072 My favourite part of Wonderland is that moment where you stop thinking "Why the heck are these two unrelated stories alternating chapters?" and realize "Holy crap, now I get it."

>>5109 Yes! Exactly! Not to derail but can you rec any authors that are similar to murakami, even if they arent Japanese?

>>5110 I've always been a fan of Aimee Bender, particularly her novel The Particular Sadness of Lemon Cake. An almost-9-year-old girl discovers that she can taste peoples emotions in the food they make. Intense love in a sandwich a man's girlfriend made for him, anger in a cookie made by a store's baker. And utter despair in the birthday cake her outwardly-happy mother made for her.

>>5109 Yep. Although the "different characters living seemingly unrelated stories until everything collides" trope is fairly common in cyberpunk books (in Gibson's works for instance), that twist was pretty enjoyable.

>>5059 Which books should I read next if I really liked Confession of a Mask and No longer human? I mean, books that talks about complex problems in a serious manner and have a weight to them. Don't have to be Japanese at any cost but since those are from Japanese authors I figured this would be the best thread to ask in.

>>5119 >books that talks about complex problems in a serious manner and have a weight to them. Almost all of Mishima's novels deal with this subject in essence. I liked a lot The Temple of Golden Pavillon. The Sea of Fertility series is a solid reading to.

>>5119 I just finished "the stranger" which is a french book that s pretty existentialist. In fact, the entire time the MC just goes through life with indifferent opinions about every serious aspect of his life. If you like complex stories about the human condition, then you are in luck. Perhaps some of you will enjoy these books. one is french, The other one is Icelandic.

>>5059 I am sorry that I forgot to post japanese lit... I really enjoyed >The book of five rings >haggakure Both deal with martial discipline and the way of the samurai/combat in some extent

The only japanese book I have read recently is the Pillow Book and, oh crap, it really feels like a blog written by a damn smart and witty mad lass. It combines the mundane with some beautiful vignettes, and the lists are pretty good too. It's crazy to think that it was written 1000 years ago. Since it's structured in several entries (300+), I found most pleasurable to read a few each night before going to sleep. Sometimes I even kept it under a pillow! Last week I got a couple of tale compilations written by Akutagawa. I'll let you know how it goes.

>>5130 The stranger is definitely on my reading list. It's probably the next book I'm gonna read. I'm also interested into his other work: The myth of Sisyphus

>>5134 Not the lainon you're answering to, but I've also read some Camus. Be sure to differentiate his novels and his philosophy works. I really enjoyed The Stranger, and his other big work, The Plague, is great (and timely). I've also read Sisyphus and started to dig into the next (The Rebel). They are certainly interesting, but I found them pretty tedious to read, way less clear than his novels. But don't let that stop you if you're interested though (and maybe it's an easier read in your native language). Sorry, this had nothing to do with japanese litterature but eh

>>5143 >Sorry, this had nothing to do with japanese litterature but eh No problem with me mate, any civilised discussion about books is good in my book. Sorry for the pun.

>>5073

>>5213 Where's Colorless Tsukuru Tazaki? Also, there is this other chart but I don't agree with some of the descriptions.

>>5214 No clue. Haven't read it yet to be honest. I try to space out Murakami so I don't get sick of his style, despite him being my favourite author.

>>5059 The entirety of this thread is such a breath of fresh air for me. I'm an immigrant from /lit/ on 4chan, and dissing Murakami and his compatriots is a perpetual meme there. Anti-jap echo chambers, basically. But yeah, No Longer Human was a really beautiful book, despite it feeling a bit immature with how ephemeral and melodramatic it was. Read Mishima and Murakami as well, but Kawabata is definitely my favourite from the lot. Snow Country is such a painfully beautiful novel.

>>5222 Ive yet to read any Murakami and I dont actually know anything about him, but im already biased against him because apparently he has a pretty good taste of music and every now and then im listening to a really beautiful song and the comments are full of people saying they come from one of his novels, thats enough for me to dislike him. Take that as you will though I do plan on reading him someday. >>5143 Camus's talent definetly lies in novels but how exactly did you find his essays tedious? They struck me as written in a very lyrical tone compared to most philosophical essays, though if you havent read alot of those in the first place I guess it wouldnt matter. Sorry for derailing even more, I dont actually read alot of Japanese literature I just really like Camus

>>5222 Glad you like the thread anon, that's exactly why I made it: in order to have a Japanese lit discussion that isn't full of memes and brewing soykaf. You know, the usual /lit/ thread. >>5228 You hate it because people discovered music trough him? Why is that a bad thing? If the music is good I don't see how more people listening to it is a bad thing. It's like those people that get triggered that people discover 70s or 80s rock records by watching jojo. And I say that as the biggest prog/hard rock fan.

>>5228 >comments are full of people saying they come from one of his novels Your response to this is totally opposite mine. I always check out the thing that people are coming from because clearly the author has good taste, and people with good taste are likely to make things I like.

>>5222 >Kawabata is definitely my favourite from the lot. Snow Country is such a painfully beautiful novel. This. Also recommend beauty and sadness and thousand cranes.

>>5213 hate these fonts and descriptions. is there anyone else in the world who likes 1Q84? >>5228 i discover most of the classical artists i listen to through film and literature does this upset you anyway i like ryu murakami the best

>>5232 Will check it out. I'm still haunted by a large portion of Snow Country, though. The train scene, when he sees the girl's face superimposed onto the milky glass pane, or the descriptions of the persimmon trees bordering the damp roads, or the "and the milky way flowed into him". I wish I could get physical copies of his works but sadly I had to resort to epubs. >>5228 The deal with Murakami is, I really enjoy the works of his I've read, but I hate the fact that I enjoy them. His novels are peak comfy because they have self-insert teenage male protagonists who have girls flinging themselves onto them, and the constant presence of sex and surrealism, with interspersed Hegel quotes lend the stories a false air of profundity and maturity that they'd otherwise lack. The older you grow, the more the flimsy facade peels away to reveal an ephemeral and puffed up core. He's basically the quintessential pseudo-intellectual author for teenagers, but there isn't anything particularly wrong with that, per say. He knows what he's doing and he does it well, and while I like his stuff, I don't consider it good writing. I'd recommend starting out with Kafka on the Shore for his most refined use of magical realism, then trying out Men Without Women, for his short stories that are fairly grounded.

>>5236 >His novels are peak comfy For me, that's exactly why I read them, to feel comfy. I don't expect some deep themes (even tho norwegian wood themes are quite overlooked imo, expecially that critic to communists) or a complex prose. But I don't feel guilty as you do when I read them, sputnik sweetheart is still a really great surrealist novel and so is kafka on the shore. I don't particularly agree with the pseudo-intellectual part to be honest, there are other authors that fits this description much better. He knows for who he writes and he doesn't try to be someone that is not.

>>5237 >and so is Kafka on the Shore. Absolutely not. I haven't read Sputnik so I'll refrain from commenting on it, but while Kafka on the Shore was semi-enjoyable, but by no metric is it a "great surrealist novel". Kafka himself is paper-thin and devoid of any real personality throughout the entire book, apart from his copious descriptions regarding working out and getting erections; he reeks of being a self-insert. The novel is extremely bloated. The prose is bland. The consumer references and random profound musings, ala the philosophy student prostitute, serve no purpose. Once you begin to read his other works the formulaic construction of every single book becomes apparent. Sex, dick magic, cats, girls, oooh spooky. Just having random things happen can entail "magical realism", but to me, it's only elevated to "great surrealism" if they serve a purpose, insofar as they're enforcing and regimenting the themes or contributing to the aesthetic whole. Murakami does not do this. I do not feel guilty for reading his books, since I am well aware of my tastes, but Murakami is the primordial pseudo-intellectual. Being a psued means flaunting a shallow and surface level knowledge of things, and that's all he does, espescially in Kafka. Some random bits of jazz culture. Some random quotations from Kant or Hegel. All they do is lend a false measure of depth, because they're flung around with reckless abandon.

>>5228 Well I read a fair bunch of philosophical essays, including some that would qualify as hard to read. I found Camus's ones not that well written, I thought that he really struggles to get to his points and goes on and on for a long time before saying pretty simple stuff for which such a buildup was not necessary. But I only went through it once, and it was quite some time ago now, so maybe I'd have a different opinion if I read them again today...

>>5235 >ryu murakami Only read "In the Miso Soup" but really enjoyed it. Any recommendation on where to from there. I heard the audition is really good

>>5248 > Any recommendation on where to from there I heard that Almost Transparent Blue is one of his best works.

Автор —[7] Паразитическая составляющая автора состоит в том, что без единого произведения он не может быть автором, но каждый после воплощения акта творения должен отказаться от своих прав себя с ним связывать. Он лишнее. Он паразит. Произведение же может существовать без автора. Проще всего это продемонстрировать, вспомнив допотопные[8] находки археологии. Глиняные таблички без автора вполне себе существует, а вот автора без них и нет.

>>5318 I think you used the wrong language

>>5248 >>5252 "Audition" is crap. Short, predictable, and uneventful except for the last chapter. Some people think it's suspenseful, but it's really only suspenseful as watching laundry dry. Ryu Murakami's true masterpiece is "From the Fatherland, with Love". It's long and much more grounded than his other books, but well worth the read. However, I'd say the best Ryu Murakami-ish Ryu Murakami book is "Popular Hits of the Showa Era". Interestingly, a handful of the characters and events in it show up in "From the Fatherland, with Love". I'm currently reading (and almost finished with) "Coin Locker Babies", I hate it. I can't really put my finger on why. It seems grotesque for the sake of being grotesque, and I can't figure out what the point is.

>>5321 >It seems grotesque for the sake of being grotesque Ryu Murakami in a nutshell.

>>5321 Have you read almost perfect blue by him?

>>5322 Unfortunately "Coin Locker Babies" was the only Ryu Murakami book my girlfriend read, so she thinks all his books are like that. She's enjoyed a few of the movies made from his books though. I really want to watch "Karaoke Terror" but I can't find a working download or stream. >>5323 I haven't read "Almost Transparent Blue" yet. I have it downloaded and queued up though.

Speaking of which, here are a few of her recommendations. Quick read murder mystery type deals. Mysteries aren't my thing so weight my worthless opinion accordingly. The Minato Kanae books are dark twisty revenge-fests. The Keigo Higashino novels are pretty thrilling, reading them feels like playing a game of chess against someone far better than yourself.

I'm planning to read Natsume Soseki's Botchan, does anybody have an opinion or information of it? It's my first foray into Japanese literature, so I'm not all that sure what to expect from it.

>>5323 Update: I read "Almost Transparent Blue" yesterday, it's absolutely one hell of a book. Reading it is a little weird, you end up drifting through a stream on consciousness with nothing solid to grab on to. It's a short read, definitely worth your time. Currently reading "Fires on the Plain".

>>5059 I'm a big fan of Murakami and Mishima as most of the other lainons seem to be. I'd say Murakami's magical realist stuff in A Wild Sheep Chase is my favorite, but I've also not read his newer titanic metafiction releases. Mishima is great for philosophical content. I've read Sun and Steel as well as Kinkakuji. Sun and Steel gets a bit too deep into Mishima's own self-referential philosophy, but it's still interesting and a short read if you're into any martial training. Kinkakuji uses the narrative to convey his philosophical ideas, which makes it much more penetrable. The way he creates characters of such distinct and unique moralities is what catches me most in that one. I'm also a huge nerd for old martial philosophers and samurai from Sengoku Jidai. I'm surprised more haven't been interested in Musashi's The Book of Five Rings. I'd consider that my favorite Japanese book. As a practicing martial artist with a little bit of experience in Kendo and Jodo, his stuff really clicked for me. The idea of manipulating the rhythm of a fight while keeping the mind swaying at a steady center really does seem applicable to any sort of oppositional act. It definitely improved my own improvisational reactions when sparring, and grounded me in a more balanced reality. The stories of some other famous samurai are forever close to my heart as well. For anyone interested, I'd recommend looking into Tsukuhara Bokuden, Yagyu Munenori (whose book I'm currently working on), and Sekishusai. Each represents a different time in Japanese history and reflects some of the best aspects that came out of the samurai classes in those times.

>>5240 Eh, I agree. Kafla is probably one of the worst murakami's novels imo. With all that namedropping, execisseve use of sex scenes and nonsensical dialogues. There are some really awful chapters in that book. Such as the infamous feminists at the library chapter or even the johnnie walker one, which felt completely gratuitous and edgy for some reason. And don't even get me started on the colonel sanders. Man that was really the worst part of the book, random deus ex-machina appearance and the prostitute citing Hegel while licking the sperm of the customer is one of the cringiest thing I've read. I fail to get how it got such a positive reaction by the readers and critics alike. I mean, I liked the split narrative thing but ultimately I decided to drop it around page 300 because I couldn't stand it anymore. Maybe I'll revisit when I finish reading some other suff.

>>5474 I haven't read much murakami (only Kafka, wind up bird, and wonderland) but I'd tend to agree. Kafka just seemed like a worse version of wind up bird. It's almost uncanny. I won't bother going over all the similarities because you could do that with any murakami novel. I'll just say that the whole well/hotel thing was a lot better conceived than the gateway/forest. I did like Nakato though, particularly in the early chapters. It would have been interesting to see the rest of the plot developing through his eyes (and the heresay of random neighborhood cats) instead of having things spelled out to Kafka every other chapter. I didn't like Kafka as a character or his side of the story. His main character traits were seemingly "being horny" and "doing whatever Oshima told him to do". I did like Oshima, but mostly just because he's a cool person and not necessarily for his role in the story (although I agree with you on the library feminist chapter lol). I did like the Johnny Walker chapter though, although its position and impact in the context of the story compares unfavorably to the murder in wind up bird.

>>5240 >he reeks of being a self-insert Murakami's self inserts work better when they're somewhat pathetic middle aged men. At least then it comes across as somewhat self-deprecating (although I'm not sure whether or not that's intentional). The main guy in wonderland is one of my favorite murakami protagonists, despite being a self insert, precisely because he's so impotent. He doesn't want or deserve anything that happens to him, which really sells the absurdity. He kind of reminds me of Yossarian from Catch-22 or Billy Pilgrim from Slaughterhouse Five.

>>5222 >/lit/ soykafs on akutagawa

I don't really read a lot but I thought this story was interesting, hope you guys like it.

Last page bump... Are there any Japanese writers that might remind me of JK Huysmans?

>Murakami Does any actually think his works are "best literary outputs of all times"?