Baudrillard, Simulacra and Simulation

This guy is one of the best at describing our current cultural, mediological, and psychological situation. He's very important in the philosophical background of cyberpunk and Lain. Have you read his works? What did you think of them?

I have his The System of Objects, picked up a copy on sale. Will probably read that one first and post thoughts here.

Guy Debord was better, but overlooked by many. Baudrillard does put it well, but he's not a critic I would consider standalone if we're looking at it that way. Have you read species of Spaces by George Perec? I read that quite soon after Simulacra and Simulation, and found it to be interesting in that context.

>>4671 I tried to read simulacra, but he writes in such a unnecessarily complex manner that i stopped reading 10 pages in. He seems to have a lot of really interesting things to say but it ends up buried in a lot of nonsense, too bad because i really liked most videos on youtube talking about him.

>>4671 It's been awhile, so correct me if I'm wrong, but one thing I particularly was interested by was his thoughts on politics. I think it was about how the power relations, as an advent of technological progress (particularly, the possibility of simulation), went through an irrevocable transformation when the Realitätsprinzip was thrown into question. Because of the loss of the principle, the line between reality and fantasy has blurred, and as a result, the meaning which keeps polarities separate implodes, which in turn causes the positions between the rulers and the ruled to be reversed in a continuous loop. This makes politics impossible - at least in its classical definition. In addition, due to the fact that simulations can have real effects, politicians and other government officials have to reinject reality into everything, which means that from now on they have to treat simulations as real things, so as to prevent power from becoming a simulation itself. I think he gave an example about a convenient store robbery executed as a simulation. If you were to simulate it, people would treat it as a real event, causing the police to show up, and it would end up with you being actually shot or trialed for robbery. To his credit, mr. B really does make you think about things outside the box, even if some of the things he's writing about seem incomprehensible or unconvincing most of the time.

>>5169 >I think he gave an example about a convenient store robbery executed as a simulation. I found interesting the description of simulation being taken as "real" in context of behavioral actions and motivation in society, especially in the description of how the simulation of a crime would be treated as an actual crime, and thus any logic related to said simulation would be discounted. To me, this became a very poignant expression of the way the internet functions. Simulate a terror attack, an act of governmental abuse, or an undesirable "truth (fictitious)" and people would treat it as a real event and respond in kind. This phenomenon has been observed since the early days of the internet, but with the advent of social media has become more potent. False Flag and information warfare campaigns have this effect, and can be instrumental in elections etc. I think the description of Nixon et al. was also relevant, because IIRC the use of spectacle was described as giving meaning, essentially if someone lacks power they can simulate power through spectacle (which actually makes quite a lot of sense if one presumes "no publicity is bad") The simulation of a boogieman produces the existence of an actual boogieman, and those who would want to seek such power may assume the role of a boogieman and thus the simulation becomes real. I might have just misunderstood the text, but that is how I interpreted it.

Its been a few months since I've read it, and I wish I had something meaningful to add, but I'll echo the above posts in saying that it was difficult to get to the core of what he was explaining with his writing style being overly complicated(or maybe just too complex for me, maybe I just need to spend more time with it.) I agree with the others that his example of simulation and reality using a simulated store robbery was particularly affecting and drove the point across really well.

If most of the people found Baudrillard’s — or any other author’s — writing style too difficult to understand, then I would suggest you to actually hold on for some time and try to get the gist of something you fail to understand. If you’ve spent the whole day thinking about the meaning of a sentence written in an arcane way, then you should have a talk with someone who’d be willing to clarify some things for you. tl;dr: Do not continue reading any book further if you did not understand a previous sentence to the fullest extent. If it takes you 5 years to finish a book, so be it.

>>4671 Would you guys by any chance be interested in trying to get a Baudrillard study group of any sort rolling here (or elsewhere)? It seems like he's at least one of the persons who had a hunch of what technology will bring with it, and as >>5385 pointed out, people seem to be having difficulty in understanding him, so trying to figure it out with a small group might be a good idea.

>>5386 I would be interested in it. Maybe make a discord server or something like that so anyone can join.

>>5388 I'd probably join if someone did that on IRC

>>5386 >>5388 >>5393 Imageboards are dying out because of such people who would rather communicate using fuсking IMs or IRCs. What a shame.

>>4671 I like him, but his analyses don't really get you anywhere. If everything's a simulacrum, if not even Foucault's power or Deleuze's desire exist, where does that leave you? And the whole symbolic exchange shtick doesn't really help either. Confront the system with your death and it's forced to return the gift? What the fuarrrk kind of advice is that?

>>5388 >>5393 >>5394 My 2 cents: Why not use all three at the same time? This thread for general announcements, discord for faster and IRC for slower/more rigorous conversations? I know, it's probably too much of a hassle to keep it all together and unnecessarily hard to coordinate everyone, but I think that all three mediums have their pros and cons. Imageboards are good for open dialogue, but because there are no strict boundaries to separate one subject from another, the participants' concentration is kind of diffused, which lowers the threshold for opting out, if things get tedious. Plus posting in and of itself is kinda clunky. Discord, on the other hand, is smoother and faster and with a place of our own people would be more committed to the project, but the fastness itself encourages people to write not-so-thought-out comments, which, on the long-run, culminates in the group's degeneracy. As for IRC, merely setting up a chat room takes effort, but maybe a little bit better for groups than the other two options.

>>5396 Nah. Just IRC and the Chan. Discord is way to invasive.

>>5397 yeah. I mean as the person you replied to said, Discord just leads to degeneracy. don't have enough IRC experience to start it proper, but I'm willing to join.

>>5395 That is a big problem, everything could do with a bit more constructive content and maybe an indication of a way out. I'm sure he had his opinions, but the way it's interpreted is pretty solipsistic and it's people's interpretation that counts unfortunately. But on the other hand, analysis should reveal the world as it is. If it's truly one big trap, then somebody should say as much. There's a time to have faith in solutions and there's a time for a sober assessment of your surroundings. If we keep going this direction and making up comforting fictions, then we logically will reach a threshold where we're truly doomed and we're past all points of no return. Hopefully we can manage to face it before then. Hopefully that hasn't already passed. It may have. Covid really has revealed the power of the simulacrum. It's spread bare what our current digital media can do. Comparing it to pandemics in the 20th century is harrowing. We've been complicit in evil and we've slaughtered millions. We've set back global human rights and basic freedoms to a devastating degree. We've made future political organizing many times more difficult by effectively (perhaps permanently--they are really really adamant and making you BELIEVE it's permanent) dissolving freedom of association. Mostly because of twitter. Or at least using twitter as a medium to advance other interests. We fuсked up reaaalll bad.

>>5458 I think the global response to covid as well as the personal responses of many (most?) individuals are only shoring up and fortifying the virtual structures, whether we discuss it in terms of simulacrum or spectacle. I have trouble watching movies lately because I see fictional people engaging in all kinds of "normal" activity that is outlawed now; yet people watch more movies now than at any time in history thanks to lockdown. The ratio of time spent engaging with the outside world vs viewing representations of life has never been so extreme. What if people get used to it? Even if there is a vaccine announced tomorrow, how many people do you think prefer it this way? I don't know but I fear it may be higher than we think.

>>5462 It's high for a while but it's gonna drop pretty precipitously at some point I think. And it doesn't take a majority to fight for the old normal back. Most people will be apathetic and will sway to the victor regardless of who they are. Just can't believe how badly everyone got fuсking played. The state is fuсking you all up the ass and most people are still loving it. God damn useless

>>5458 >>5462 >>5463 Indeed the absolute willingness to simply comply or even tolerate what is going on is truly disturbing. When i look on the street and see how people are just going on as they usually would towards the bottom of the barrel with no bottom. I never held high expectations for people, but this is a low even beyond what i thought possible. I have a hard time coping with this.

>>5464 >Indeed the absolute willingness to simply comply or even tolerate what is going on is truly disturbing. What else can you do?

>>4719 >>5167 That's the case for basically all Baudrilliard, unfortunatly. Picked up Symbolic Exchange and Death for my Masters a while back, turned out to be too unneccasrily complex. I may try Simulacra tho. I liked Azuma's postmodern analysis of early 2000's Otaku culture using Baudrilliard, it fascinated me in how a copy wasn't a 'fake.'

>>5464 >>5463 I don't understand what you think people should be doing differently. I don't drive 70 in a school zone or smoke in a movie theatre because I think those things are harmful and constitute anti-social behaviour. True they are also illegal and I'd get into trouble but compliance with authority is not what prevents me, a sense of responsibility is. Same with covid precautions. Besides, I was really talking about how many people either secretly or vocally hated their jobs and enjoyed the mandatory vacation or doing their days work at home in their underwear. Same for children who detest going to school and prefer homeschool or online learning. The lockdown actually showed people that life could be different, the scripts we were following previously were not the only ways to do things.

>>5471 >I don't understand what you think people should be doing differently. I don't drive 70 in a school zone or smoke in a movie theatre because I think those things are harmful and constitute anti-social behaviour. True they are also illegal and I'd get into trouble but compliance with authority is not what prevents me, a sense of responsibility is. Same with covid precautions. Well said. As Chris Hedges says, "Hyper-individualism is a form of dis-empowerment." Knee-jerk "Someone asked me to do something, screw them, I'll do the opposite" reactions with no thought given to the possibility that the request is reasonable is a classic manifestion of that.

>>5471 "Sense of responsibility", "conscience", etc. are all products of the "democratic" form of control (i.e. self-control), that's increasingly been deployed since the dawn of modernity. It has its roots in the early modern idea that the body is simply a tool to be controlled by the mind (Descartes). This stands in opposition to the traditional conception of sovereignty where an outside force is needed to keep individuals in check (Hobbes). Now I agree with >>5472 that always doing the opposite of what your conscience tells you is dumb and even harmful, not least to yourself, but you should still be suspicious of this "common sense" approach to morality. Pdf related is a great book that goes into details about how self-control, frugality, the capitalist work ethos were forced onto medieval populations in the most cruel manner until they came to internalise them.

>>5475 Pdf was too big http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=6F7A98C1E718D66D51ACD50E66D28A5C

>>5475 No. Giving a sh¡t about the people nearby and avoiding activities that will harm them is not something we only come by through brainwashing by some government. In fact, much of the modernist paradigm you reject is constructed of systems that reward selfish behaviour and punish altruism and compassion. Competition at the expense of other people's wellbeing and the wellbeing of the natural world is a fundamental value of capitalism.

>>5480 Capitalist "selfishness" is a scam. In reality people are expected to give up enjoyment in life in exchange for amassing wealth. Capital is nothing but another god to "altruistically" sacrifice yourself to.

>>5481 Well... yes it's a scam. People believe they are giving up their freedom now so they can afford more freedom later, only the never get quite the vacation or retirement they plan for. Vacations are often less about enjoying life than about recovering from the strain of work long enough to go back into it. But people believe in it, and this is what motivates a lot of them.

I'd start with some of his last works first, like "The Spirit of Terrorism" and "The Agony of Power". Another good entry is "In the Shadow of Silent Majorities".

I have never really heard of this book nor took notice of it before yesterday, when it go pointed that this book was the one in the matrix where neo kept the disk in the beginning scene. I hope i get around to read it one day, as it is i think i have more books than i can read in my life i think.

>>5475 The idea of the "individual" as such is a modernist invention.