The Boss

Is it really ethically permissible to trick your comrades into being murdered and your lover/student/adopted son into permanently traumatizing himself in order to possibly prevent a theoretical nuclear exchange?

Why do people insist on calling the Boss Snake's lover? They never even implied that in any of the games. She was the world to him as his menthor and substitute mother but nothing more than that. Also you can tell that Snake didn't know jack soykaf about love by the way he interacted with Eva. That aside, replying to your question >Is it really ethically permissible Everything the Boss did was so she could see her ideal of the world become a reality, so it depends on what school of thought you come from. From my point of view it was totally justified, even if it meant hurting the ones she loved. Most people always used her only as a tool. In the end she decided to be loyal to her views.

>>955 The slashes here indicate possible ways of characterizing their relationship. It's never made clear whether they were romantically involved. His interactions with Eva can be seen as nervousness about giving himself to her. Snake wasn't in a good mindset for love at that point. The ambiguity of the relationship is probably one of my favorite things about Snake Eater.

For all we know the state department wanted the money for themselvess and knew a recalcitrant ww2 operative would just create problems for them. they were right

>>1403 I'm not sure I understand why you call her recalcitrant here. She seemed to think that you lose the right to question orders when you become a soldier, and, as far as we know, she did everything she was told.

>>1407 If Eva's word in PW is anything to go on, The Boss had some disagreements with her superiors at one point.

>>956 >It's never made clear whether they were romantically involved. But why would they as there is not even implication of it?

>>1656 To put it simply, I don't think it's true that there's no implication. When the topic is brought up, Snake doesn't give a straight answer on whether there was a romantic component. He just says it was "deeper than that" with little elaboration, suggesting that he doesn't want it characterized as mere romance but not telling us whether romance was a factor. Given their closeness, I think it's implied until it's denied, so to speak. You can't make a strong argument for it, but it seems that the writers wanted you to consider the romantic angle.

>>955 She says it over and over again throughout the entire game "I am loyal to my mission, to my end" or whatever. I have no idea why this flys over most people's head's but she's not talking about her mission from the U.S., she's talking about her own personal mission. Nothing is more important than her mission, which is why even snake can be thrown aside, her mission is the only thing that matters.

>>1664 I think the most telling quote regarding this is "I am loyal to myself." While there seems to be something admirable about that, her willingness to manipulate her comrades in order to "prove her loyalty" seems less than heroic. That said, maybe she just had a strong belief in personal autonomy. If the Cobras were killed, it was because they had decided to be loyal to her. If Snake killed her, it was because he had chosen to be loyal to his mission.

>>1666 So basically she wanted her daddy's money and was willing to screw everyone over for it

>>1683 That seems like a very simplistic way of looking at it, especially since her plans for the Legacy aren't clear. Actually, if you want to go insane, try to figure out what was going on with the Legacy at the end of the game. Who had the real one? Who had a fake? Were there two Legacies? Questions like this keep me up at night.

>>1684 Okay ... ocelot had the real one. Mgsv confirms that zero suggested ocelot use it for the patriots.

>>1684 The Boss joined volgin because they were both children of the philosophers. There's nothing to suggest she betrayed him for the legacy. Ocelot probably switched it out for a fake weeks before snake eater even happened and was supposed to give it to the boss. Was the boss really going to betray volgin, for hot Coldman of all people? I doubt that. She made a calculated decision and lost.

>>1685 >>1686 I hadn't even considered the possibility that the Boss was actually loyal to Volgin. What's your evidence for this? Just their status as fellow children of the Philosophers? Their globalistic tendencies? Alright, here are the facts as of Snake Eater (no Peace Walker to confuse things; everything in Metal Gear gets retconned anyway): 1.) The Boss gave Snake what she apparently believed was the Legacy (only one microfilm) before she died, although it isn't clear where she got it (she may have taken it from Volgin without his noticing). 2.) Eva stole something from Snake that she apparently thought was the Legacy. 3.) Snake is looking at what appears to be the Legacy after Eva leaves, suggesting that he somehow had two microfilms, unbeknownst to Eva. 4.) Ocelot's call after the credits suggests that he is actually in control of the real Legacy, but he says that he only has half of it and does not know where the other half is. Presumably, the other half would also be stored on a microfilm like the first half. He also confirms that Eva stole a fake from Snake. My current theory is that the Boss gave her (real) half to Snake. On the plane, Ocelot planted a fake on Snake. Eva took that fake. Whether Ocelot left the real one or a fake with Snake I don't know, but Ocelot gave one real half to the CIA. It's possible that he had obtained the other real half through other means. It's possible that Ocelot obtained Snake's half at some point. Actually, it's weird that Snake would have a microfilm by the time of the sex scene because it seems like they would have confiscated it from him by that point, considering that they were hoping to get the microfilm from the Boss...I really don't know what to think.

>>1689 I guess it's worth looking into but the play with the microfilm seems like a non issue. I dont have mgs3 on so i can't confirm but, Eva had a microfilm on her and volgin gave it to the boss to hold on to. That's honestly the last i remember. We know Eva went home with a fake so it was mission failed. Aside from that it's ocelot signature trickery at play. I don't believe in retcons. There's a dedicated canon confirmed by kojima himself that can be confirmed. It's convoluted but it's one long tale. So i include peace walker, mg1, and mg2.

>>1689 Oh and there's no proof that the boss was loyal or treacherous to volgin. I just put two and two together and there's no proof the boss handed ocelot the real legacy. The boss's mission was to defect and steal the legacy. But there's no proof that she did this and hot Coldman was demoted for his role in her mission, implying that maybe it was poorly handled if not dare I say, an outright failure.

>>1692 Ah yes, I had forgotten that Volgin gave the Boss the microfilm. Well, that's one of my mysteries resolved, but the core issues remain. >I don't believe in retcons. https://metalgear.fandom.com/wiki/Retcon >>1693 What makes you think the Boss gave Ocelot the Legacy? Ok, my new theory is that when Volgin handed the Boss the Legacy, she gave a fake to Eva (immediately after getting the Legacy, she makes physical contact with Eva in the cutscene). Then, the Boss gave a real microfilm to Snake. On the plane, Ocelot swapped the real one Snake had with a fake. Before Eva left, she didn't even check to see if the microfilm was on Snake because she thought she had it (directly from the Boss). As for Coldman, it's possible that the CIA director attempted to keep the Legacy for himself and reported the mission as a failure.

>>1696 A bunch of corrections and plot developments are listed as retcons. 90% of those are just plot developments. Portable ops isn't canon. The series picks and chooses what parts of portable ops are canon and which parts aren't. Why do you think it's so important to know how the legacy got recovered? I'm just wondering because it seems like such a minor issue. Also I don't consider the database canon.

>>1696 I don't have a theory on the legacy. I said I only remember volgin giving it to the boss. Anything else is a mystery.

>>1701 I don't think it's important. I just think it's interesting.

>>1703 That's cool. There's always a go to for metal gear mysteries. You know, the one that explains everything.

>>1703

>>1705 >>1706 I think I missed something.

>>1707 Well it's not important. It won't answer your question.

>>1719 Are you being vague for any particular reason you'd like to share?

>>1720 No im not being vague. It's basically a joke that anything can be explained with nanomachines. Mgs4 and then metal gear rising feature nanomachines. One more as a joke. Wasnt trying to be vague

You know, I just realized that it would only take a small tweak in the Metal Gear timeline (the Boss' body surviving Operation Snake Eater) for the Snake clones to have been Boss clones. I wonder what the code name convention would have been. I was thinking about synonyms for "joy" (Ecstasy, Rapture, etc.), but those make them sound like strippers rather than soldiers. I guess synonyms for "boss" (Chief, Honcho, La Capitan, etc.) work better, but they don't sound quite right either, not to mention that they're inappropriate for rookies. Does anyone have any better ideas?

>>1859 Dead doesn't stop cloning. And you could have frozen tissue somewhere. Secondary you could give them princess names. Heralding to come from higher standing but not with equal power.

Many properties from the east have a caste element to them. Mgs is no different. This is especially apparent when considering allegiances. If a person thinks about mgs in terms of caste, then it makes sense why the boss and volgin had the same aims. They were both intended to inherit the fortunes of the philisophers. The philosophers fighting among themselves is what caused the world yo split. By joining volgin she was reversing the mistakes of her elders and making the world one again. NWO soykaf

>>1921 I was under the impression that her loyalty to Volgin was always a ruse, though. I think her major goal was to prevent a nuclear catastrophe, and supporting Volgin would have been a poor way to accomplish that, given his eagerness to use the Davy Crockett and general instability. Further, she didn't even pretend to assist Volgin after Snake beat him in the hangar, but maybe she would have if he had beaten Snake. The Boss is still pretty mysterious, so I won't pretend to have her completely figured out. Also, I don't think that the Philosophers were responsible for splitting the world, but I may be mistaken. I don't think that the world of Metal Gear was ever really unified, although it was probably closest under the influence of the Patriots. There's a reason why Solid's "to let the world be" philosophy is given moral supremacy in the series. The idea seems to be that mankind will eventually unify naturally if it doesn't destroy itself first (thus, the events of the series hang in the shadow of Metal Gear, an existential threat); any attempts to force it will only make things worse and ultimately fail to unify the world.

>>1922 I don't think what the Boss says is right. It's just what she believes..her convictions, etc

>>1925 I'm afraid I don't understand you. Are you saying that she believed the Philosophers to be responsible for splitting the world? If not, I'm not sure how your post responds to the one above it.

>>1926 What I mean is, she believes that the world should be "one". Whatever she does is more or less justified by this belief. I'm also saying that personally the boss's and to an extent volgin's account on the fate of the philosopher's after ww2 is largely subjective since it seems theirs are the only accounts given.