subversion

Something that struck me is the rotation and concept of useful idiots. Its generally known on internet niches, hence im interested what lain thinks about it, in the particular context of conservatives falling for it. An example is the state run school of economy in moscow. Their President is Alexander Shokhin and Rector Nikita Anissimov. Both putin loyalists and all the downstream of such. But if conservatives were to inspect institutions in russi, like this university, they would find almost 1:1 what they criticize so eagerly about the west. Its interesting, and i personally would call it a cognitive dissonance. But maybe lain has a different point of view to share, or understand the mental procedures of these people better? Additionally : At the time of the interview with yuri bezmenov, he (yuri) points towards old events(60s/70s) therefore pointing at left idealism as destabilizing. This is different, as now one would point at Conservatives and the like, as Kremlin assets. Links, to russian institutions who promote ideals that offend right wingers : https://web.archive.org/web/20260607060028/https://www.hse.ru/en/news/campus/1156332233.html https://web.archive.org/web/20260314083742/https://educonf.hse.ru/en/2026/

>useful idiots What this really refers to, is people who don't comprehend that both sides are owned by the same people. They vehemently fight for "their side" against "the other side", but they're just being puppeted by higher powers to fight for their causes despite neither understanding or supporting them. People who don't even understand the rules of the game fighting for players which they don't even recognize exist.

>>99139 fpbp As for OP, are you trying to seed the idea that Russia's academia and economics are WOKE? Russia has their own interests as well as their idiot ivory tower class, just like every other country. Maybe I'm not entirely sure what the point of your thread is or whom exactly you refer to as "conservative" but diplomacy and economic relations between NATO, GB, EU and RU likely would've been a better idea than years of throwing waves of sons and fathers into the meat grinder for mere updoots.

people want to believe in multilateral system of social control out of a sense of hope, the classic "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" trope but the social control we live under today is very much unilateral. it has to be because if the various world superpowers were fully opposed to one another and went to war as they had done in the past it would instantly lead to the destruction of all life on the planet. there is only one empire now and it is inescapable, there are no enemies of the enemy to appeal to for assistance, there is no hope.

>>99145 >the classic "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" trope the dog of my enemy is my friend

>>99135 hey. i live in iran, and i gotta agree with >>99142. every country, including mine, has the ideological divide that can be seen in the west, and neither side is better or more 'traditional' the sense that the word is used. the internet, and specially social media, has brought together the world in such a manner that we can say that certain ideas and 'memes' have gone global, and have created a universal society, each a copycat of the other (with certain regional differences, of course). for example, a famous and controversial one is neoliberalism (i am using the word in the economic sense).

>>99135 >latest psyop It's pretty obvious who is doing the subversion, and you are part of "them".

nobody cares what goes on in russian universities. american conservatives, like american liberals, more or less feel the same way about russia that they did during the cold war.

>>99182 They care so little they go to a russian grocery stores, filming the most trivial aspects of ones life. Yes.

>>99211 Tucker Carlson, like Trump, is just another symptom of American population, but everyone conveniently seems to forget that part.

>>99182 your info is a little out of date, conservatives have had a semi-boner for russia for a while now. i think it's because modern day russia is a lot like trump's america, only worse. modern russia basically a white nationalist crony-capitalist totalitarian dystopia where 99% of the population are completely miserable and have no real agency at all and they all hate each other too much to unite and overthrow their corrupt government, it's exactly the kind of society that american conservatives want the us to be.

>>99135 Politics thrives on the illusion of choice. The reality is that conservatives, woke liberals, commies, racist Nazi glitterboys are all more or less the same, some superficial differences divide them, but they share the same bedrock. In a sense, anyone who plays politics is a useful idiot. If you peddle Trump or peddle Mamdani, you are unaware that they are two faces of the same rubix cube, and the illusion of politics, culture wars etc is a way the system puppeteers you and turns you into a useful idiot. In fact, we are all idiots, because we participate in the system and allow it to continue.

>>99182 I care. I do care. >>99142 In Moscow, universities are funded by the state so some genius from a village could enroll. Sometimes that's what happens. Sometimes it doesn't and instead, some fatherless dum-dum spends a lot of time or money without being told his dum-dum head is hollow enough to stay in a nuthouse and receive nuthouse pension maybe

>>99276 >white nationalist crony-capitalist totalitarian dystopia you are not russian, it shows. And if you knew about the tatars/Chuvash/Bashkirs... caucasians/mongoles... oh heaven, another westerner who tells me who i am. Let me guess your russian vocabulary ?something like "suka blyat" yes ?

>>99314 >you are not russian, it shows. of course i'm not, that's why i have perspective on this, because i don't live in your totalitarian society where access to outside information is heavily restricted and all mass media is state-controlled and everyone is trapped in a pro-putin white nationalist echo chamber, i live in a mere authoritarian society that has thus far failed to achieve such a level of repression or social conformity. >another westerner who tells me who i am. i don't know anything about who you are personally, but i know a little bit about russian society just from reading about it and talking to a lot of russians on the internet and from what i've gathered it seems to be a largely white christian conservative population who are highly indoctrinated because they've had nationalist nonsense shoved down their throats by various authoritarian nationalist rulers for over two centuries and they want to get rid of all the immigrants and the dark people and the muslims and they view things like homosexuality and gender nonconformity to be morally repugnant and they elected putin because he says he's going to make russia great again and bring back traditional russian values, practically a mirror image of the united states, only with the right-wing segment of the population being more like 70% whereas in the us it's more like 50-55%. but none of this is really a reflection on who you or other russians are as individual people, human beings are all pretty much the same everywhere, your ideological baggage is just the result of a long history of european imperialism that has dominated much of the world for a very long time and made both of our societies what they are today. speaking of which, you russians tend to throw around the word "westerner" a lot and seem to think that you are not westerners, but from where i am standing it is very clear that you are westerners, that you are the west. maybe you weren't always the west, but during the reign of peter the great when your rulers became enamored by all the wealth and power and technology of western empires and decided "i want to be like those guys too" and remodeled your society in that image, you became part of the west and that can never, ever be undone. you caught the westoid mind virus a long time ago and there is no cure for it.

>>99315 NTA but I'm not Russian and you were actually wrong on the "white-nationalist" part. One of the tension points between Putin and the extreme right is the fact that Putin is 100% for "importing" low-skilled labor from the border countries or whatever. In Putin's vision Russia should be expansionist and great but nowhere in the state ideology is there a mandate for races. In fact, if I remember correctly Navalny was leaning more on right on this issue and thus by criticizing Putin over it (among other things), got poisoned.

>>99321 This, absolutely. Go to aviapark, there you can see. Or go to university Petrozavodsk. (image attached, of who attend there) Why you think Navalny died ? Because he was "certified nationalist" (old joke he made, but true). And when they ceremonially raise the 3 flags : Soviet, Federation, Romanovski. And if you know history (black october 93, execution of Romanovski family ...) you will see this is total cognitive dissonance. >>99321 Dugin is another problem, he wants russia to be a mongol horde. So he coins it "eurasianism". Then he whines in his books about "western nations have sea-access. While russia has 9time zones of water exposure, but geographically the north just faces no trade partners(. It ties back to Op post if you will, becouse the western "right wing" is completely in illusion about russia, and they buy into "le based ruski". Apparently 3rd World-ism is big inspiration for right wing. Putin Sultan Churki of Moscowabad I will eat you westerners.

>>99322 lainchan seems to scrap images, so here is a seperate one now, since the above couldn't attache

Honestly as a huge rightwanker myself I don't see a massive amount of russophilia these days. Putin is smart but every time I see him talk he's pretty clearly a liberal. Maybe a better class of liberal than a lot of the ones we have in my country, but nevertheless. Not that I'm really rooting for the ukraine or anything either. Obviously the russian people are pretty compotent and all and I have plenty of respect but their governments are not holding the solutions to our problems in the occident. >>99211 the grocery store is hardly a trivial matter. Grocery stores are actually incredibly important in basically everyone's life.

imo rightwingers have to be sort of weird about russia because even if they admire certain aspects of the federation, russia still reached its scientific, military, cultural, and economic peak under communism. even on the russian right there's the dissonance of disavowing the left while at the same time owing any semblance of national strength to it

>>99328 >imo rightwingers have to be sort of weird about russia because even if they admire certain aspects of the federation, russia still reached its scientific, military, cultural, and economic peak under communism. eh, i don't think it had anything to do with communism. it was the industrial revolution, all of the ww1 european imperial superpowers were taking advantage of amazing new technologies and centralizing all economic planning under state control to overhaul their societies and become incredibly rich and powerful, it didn't make any difference what their ideological pretext was. and russia's industrialization was already well underway years before the commies and their little so-called revolution. russia could have become a crony-capitalist republic like the us or britain or they could have become fascists like germany or italy or they could have kept the tsars and continued being a monarchy like saudi arabia and the other muslim countries in the former ottoman empire did; the results in terms of industrialization would have been more or less the same. industrialization was an inevitability, all the internal power struggles were just about which group of elites would be at the top reaping all the rewards when it happened. ideology doesn't really dictate history as much as people think; more often it simply revises it to take credit for it after the fact. this is why the american right-wing have suddenly done this complete about-face on russia - because the nature of power is fundamentally self-serving and self-perpetuating, and the nature of ideology is fundamentally a lie, a work of fiction, a revisionist narrative. it's the same reason why phony celebrity charlatans like joe rogan or tim pool or bill maher will suddenly reinvent themselves as anti-woke right-wing crusaders when they realize they could get a lot more attention and be a lot more rich and famous if they side with the right, if they side with whomever they think is the winning team at the moment. the ideological and geopolitical alignment of power is ephemeral and arbitrary - today oceania is allied with east asia and at war with eurasia, tomorrow it will be allied with eurasia and at war with eastasia, rewriting history as needed to conform to the new narrative. the kinds of people who rise to positions of power are usually psychopaths who don't really believe in anything, they don't care about things like communism or democracy or traditional values, they may think that they care about these things, but all they really care about is staying in power and becoming more powerful and they will switch religions tomorrow if that's what it takes to make that happen.

>>99360 well whether it was because of communism or despite communism it was under communism. Throughout the cold war and the space race and all that it was the US and the USSR, and no other country came close. I'm not the guy you're replying to, I'd be hesitant to say their culture peaked under the USSR, and their science maybe peaked shortly before (took about a generation for the engineers & industrialists to catch up). Its interesting that the country itself really lasted for just about a single human lifetime, so I'd hazard the guess that some aspects of soviet rearing and such were pretty unsustainable. But all that being said, they were phenomenally industrious while things lasted and made a lot of remarkable achievements. You can quibble about how information on bomb making, and literall uranium were shipped to them, about how they stole a lot of german industry and were given a lot of american industry and patents and all that, but we still must admit they made use of them. The Nazi rocket projects never orbited the Earth much less Venus. The Soviets' did! In any case this is some vindication of communism or at any rate the soviet system. Despite any and all of its problems, it was not so dysfunctional as to be unable to run a massive, militarily powerful, world power for 40 or so years of active conflict with a major rival. For what its worth, I really don't see much on-the-ground evidence that the american right is pro russia. They're not pro ukraine, generally. A few public figures are pro russia, but when I talk to right wing friends and family the war hardly registers and everyone is far more concerned with immigration and stuff, honestly.

>>99372 Assuming while war the Germans could thrown the budget and occupy their intelligentsia with achievements made in peace times (orbiting the earth), is a derangement of its own dimension. Trump letting Putin do his do in urine. Trumps relations to the Russian mob : https://quigley.house.gov/media-center/news-article/salon-trump-s-deep-links-organized-crime-federal-investigators-know-and Tucker in some Russian supermarket, as if it was his first day on earth. Dugin (Russian dogmatic) invited to republican military schools. http://www.juliadavisnews.com/articles-about-russian-propaganda/texas-am-university-welcomes-sanctioned-terrorism-supporter-alexander-dugin/ Oh i dont see, how do i not see, how do you see, i cant see...

>>99377 I'm sorry I can't really parse your first sentance. I presume you are saying that it is deranged to compare the acheivements of Peace Time Soviet Union against Wartime Germany. Obiously its also unfair to compare given the space of time and newness of the technology. I certainly assume that had germany triumphed, there's a very good chance it could have had comprable achievements in a comprable timeline or maybe a faster timeline. My point is that the soviets did these things. No anarchist commune has done these things, no monarchy has done these things constitutional or otherwise. And a lot of them were done by the soviets first. The Soviet System might not be the ideal system, the one that works best. But you can't say it doesn't work. If you'd dumped all the guys at peenumunde into most countries, I doubt they'd have been able to do all they did. As to the American Right, prominent figures can say and do what they want. Tucker Carlson can say and do whatever he pleases, I am remarking on what I see interacting with people in real life.

>>99360 >who rise to positions of power are usually psychopaths who don't really believe in anything I think you are wrong here. Complete cynics like Trump look to me like exceptions. Psychopaths maybe but for example Stalin absolutely believed in communism to the end. Do you think that Churchill or Eisenhower did not genuinely believe in liberalism and the power of markets to strive humanity forwards? Did not Hitler and DeGaulle believe in their countries' exceptionalism?

>>99380 i think there is a difference between genuinely believing in something and being delusional and insane. a person who genuinely believed in something would not need to resort to repressing all critical thought and walling themselves off from reality to maintain their beliefs.

>>99380 >Trump is a complete cynic If he didn't think he was fighting for a worthy cause, I don't think he'd keep persisting with this many people trying to kill him. He could cash out, retire to some pleasant tropical location, live out the remainder of his life in comfort. You can call him insane if you want, or a psycopath or detached from reality, but hes fighting for something he thinks is worth risking death for. >inb4 he staged the assasination attempts

>>99382 >He's fighting for something he'd risk his death over He's really not, like all presidents he's basically the hostage of his coalition. Trump is being asked to do a job, he is being rewarded handsomely but more importantly they'll probably kill him if he stepped down or even if he fuarrrks up too badly. That's part of why he's so paranoid, he knows he's not the most powerful player (even if he thinks he should be), he is beholden to certain people who scare him.

>>99360 This is being weird about Russia though. like even Putin doesn't deny the communist built Russia into a superpower. And the explanation for it is pretty straightforward in that the communist reinvested the labor and and resources that were wasted by the Tsars back into the state which took the nation from feudalism to space travel in less than a century.

The modern conservative party takes a lot of pages from how those at the top handled the decaying soviet dream, because we find ourselves in a similar place here in America. Its partly why prior to this trumpian and new conservative movement old conservatives were falling out of fashion, and its also why current democrats keep losing. When you think about it make america great again is not something any conservative prior to the trump regime would ever put forward, for the exact reason many when it first began bipartisianly criticized it. It was seen across lines as anti american, it implied america was falling, one of the biggest mistakes the democrats made early on was trying to push this rhetoric of "is he implying america is not great!?". Everyone knows the american dream is a lie, its hard to point to what america even is, was there ever even really a cohesive idea of an america or did we just run on the fervor and fumes of its creation as some reactionary force against the british. Americas very founding and building betrayed its own ideals, in some ways same with Soviet Russia. Many not so marxists things had to be done to build soviet russia, many not so life liberty pursuit of happiness things had to be done to build America. Regardless in both instances there was a national identity and purpose, in both cases noble intention wise on their surface. In the 60s when the communist dream was at its peak the american dream was dying. And then later while America was talking about hope and new future new identity Russia was capitalist, corrupt even, yet somehow with an uncorruptable or uncontrollable former soviet kgb officer at its helm. Your making the classic mistake of assuming that conservatives actually care about ideals or values that they espouse. Same could be said of most democrats but the right especially now is very open about the truth not particularly mattering, what matters is the myth and story being created. It doesnt matter if america being great again looks nothing like what the founding fathers intended or is morally bankrupt or no longer america its about a sort of fascist legend or myth or power fantasy. What those on the right like about russia and putin or look up to is how in the abandonment of everything it stood for it was able to maintain power and control, there is a shared understanding at the top. Those below who genuinely believe in right wing ideals and think russia is emblematic of them are fed this downstream because whats important is that russias handling of cognitive dissonance and identity and ideology and etc. Is seen as appropriate and normal. Which to be fair they had been formulating even while still communist, we both have learned a lot from eachother. "We know that they are lying, they know that they are lying, they even know that we know they are lying, we also know that they know we know they are lying too, they of course know that we certainly know they know we know they are lying too " what you are seeing is not cause of useful idiots the useful idiots play a relatively small role especially in a world of bots and AI (in this context, big for winning elections). Really internalize the above quote because its a big reason why the left and especially dems has lost this past decade. The useful idiots your speaking about are those who understood america was like a decaying soviet russia, they might not have the most knowledge or nuance but that was how trump won them over and then was able to spin a tale about why america was decaying to them that he didnt really need to do anything to fix because he put it all on culture. Meanwhile popular dems didnt want to even accept america was not great, and what they also didnt understand (except a few like bernie sanders and mamdani )was the above quote. Instead of speaking to the useful idiots they debated with candace owens or blaire white or milo and people who understood said quote without even probably knowing it very well. Many others too like ben shapiro or right now nick fuentes or charlie kirk but I brought up the first three because their very identities are evidence of not an unawareness of cognitive dissonance but a total acceptance of it. As was their tentative acceptance into the rightosphere. Its not really about western values, with varying levels of cynicism with some truly believing it and others just wanting to be at the top its about giving new life to america through a kind of magical power and myth. Thats what the right looks to russia and putin with admiration for. In my opinion its demonstrably a bad idea and also evil, but it is an idea, something at the time and even right now the democratic party hasnt provided because they refuse to accept an idea is needed and believe back to brunch and droning about a middle class that increasingly doesnt exist anymore is tried and true. I can totally fault the right for this methodology, I wouldnt be friends with anyone who abides by it, but I do understand it, its easy for me to see the draw or why what on its face seems machiavellin and sketchy and dirty and evil in another light is noble. Its almost like religious faith except even stronger because it even overpowers and rewrites scripture to serve the myth. Its more powerful because of what your seeing as cognitive dissonance, a person of faith in a religion has to contend with actual cognitive dissonance and crisis of faith. The true intentional believers in this maga power mythos see it as overpowering truth itself, we see what we believe not believe what we see, etc. It doesnt matter whether they are or are not eating the dogs, if everyone says and believes they are then the outcome and in the history books they were, especially today. Another relevant quote relating to soviet russia, "show me the man and il show you the crime". I cant underestimate how much the US learned from the soviets (and post soviet russia), and the nazis, and vice versa in a bizarre twisted triangle. Israel too has taken some pages out of their books and ours. If they genocide most of the palestinians and systematically suppress the rest like we did with the natives, itl look bad now but in a hundred years itl just be a note in history and a cause for people to protest here and there. Something most people say "oh well what could you do now".

>>99382 All this political violence is fake, why was there only one luigi? It was all fake, the guys name was luigi's manshion - luigi magione/mangione. Trump's ear was also referenced by pokemon.

>>99135 >But if conservatives were to inspect institutions in russi, like this university, they would find almost 1:1 what they criticize so eagerly about the west. Which would be?

im inside your walls. im inside your floor. be careful where you look, im behind every dooor

>>99397 lainon this is a gempost but i wish you would use line breaks

with the public humiliation of the us surrendering to iran destroying its military credibility on the world stage, and the coming tech bubble collapse that will destroy its financial credibility on the world stage, the us is destined to become an authoritarian rogue state like russia. trump is only the beginning, the coming economic ruin and continued erosion of the american middle class and the tremendous public resentment that will result will be a boon for right-wing populist grifters who will blame everything on big tech and china and immigration and leftists and the fascist regime will be further cemented as time goes on. the era of liberalism is over and the prospect of any kind of socialist reform is but a naive pipe dream. the current alliance between big tech and the maga regime has always been a very uneasy alliance between two powerful regimes with very incompatible goals, the former being heavily reliant on immigrant labor to run their businesses and the latter wanting to close the borders and revoke all the green cards and isolate the us from the rest of the world. after the ai bubble bursts and the tech industry collapses, big tech will no longer be useful to the state, it will become a political liability. whoever trump's right-wing nationalist successors are will seize the money and assets of the tech oligarchs and incorporate them into the new state capitalist paradigm, basically the same thing that happened to the oligarchs aligned with yeltsin after putin rose to power. i suspect many of the tech oligarchs will take whatever money they can carry and flee to the global south and try to forge their own little neo-feudal empires there, but i doubt that they will find the local populations as easy to control as they think they will be. in the end, the us will be like russia, a much more isolated and corrupt and extremist shadow of its former glory with an aging and shrinking population composed largely of disenfranchised and highly-indoctrinated white dinosaurs and its only real exports will be hydrocarbons, weapons, and disinformation.

>>99397 The modern conservatives takes the Tao, reads it the other way around without ever reading it and then boasts in the utter most primitive manner. Specifically gen_z is such a pain, as they dont come up with ideas, but only invert everything thats woke. Its entirely reactive and mentally below gutter levels. Inventing exactly 0.

>>99382 >If he didn't think he was fighting for a worthy cause, I don't think he'd keep persisting with this many people trying to kill him. Trump is an expert in doublethink. On the one hand, he is cashing out. He's already participated in multiple pump-and-dump schemes, publicly asked for and accepted bribes, and he and his circle of advisors are so obviously insider trading all the time it's genuinely funny. It is completely undeniable that he is corrupt to the bone, and he must have a very calculating, strategic mind to do that while remaining popular. But, I think he has that sort of narcissistic personality that allows him to do anything as long as he is "fighting the good fight". That's why he keeps bungling up foreign policy and diplomacy, as soon as he doesnt stand to personally gain anything the guy has a not-particularly-smart 13 year old HOI4 player's understanding of the world and he's cultivated an inner circle of people just like him. Keep in mind, of course, that there is no reason to expect anything to improve once that fool dies. Trump is the face of a technocratic coup that has been going on largely out of the public eye, replacing key judges and military commanders with stooges. This is a permanent end to the era of American competence. Trump is more like Yeltsin than Putin, always keep that in mind.

>>99315 Did you know the "Russia is the motherland of elephants" is a part of a longer joke? Huh? You won't get far just reading that "Everything on elephants" illustrated pocketbook.

>>99873 Yeltsin was hubris and boasted, so does trump. I miss his alcoholism, why is trump not chronically intoxicated? Would be charming. More so your society reflects itself in their leaders. While you can argue, but i didnt vote X and ... uninteresting. Yelsin perfectly embodied Russia in the 90s: Perfect abilities finally free, but vodka sledgehammer was better apparently + purges of KGB personnel would have helped to prevent insiders from eating the state. The Us comes decently close to this, its problems are equally these of a declining nation who hoped for change. Yelsin did his funni "Da, Da, Nyet, Da " , and trump equally evades things. But the US has demographic problems, the Soviet had a difficult legacy and a drunktard , thats a stark difference.

>>99873 I feel like everything with Trump has to take into account that he has arguably been the worst man in every room he has ever entered, but also at every stage of his life he has been rewarded with more power and wealth because/despite this. I don't know what the frame of reference would be for that. What other human has the experience of being a publicly exposed child rapist who is also implicated in the murder of said children, but is also just rewarded with more money, power, and adoration? What would be a person's understanding of right and wrong if they were placed in hell as the devil?

>>99866 Tao is hard to understand unless you accept some knowledge is fractal-like ("there is no bottom"). Sometimes it's the other way round, though - some ostensibly deep wizdom is a story made to merely illustrate something rather simple. >>99898 >the Soviet had a difficult legacy <implying USAnians have easy legacy >and a drunktard <implying there is no substance abuse from Trump, who's notorious for going full Orange Man.

>>99918 All the politicians and world leaders got exposed as this by the e p stein files, they're all the same, they're all in on it and have the same abhorrent culture. Why are people acting like politics is even real at this point, the shows over, what was behind the curtain was revealed for all the world to see, yet people want to keep the pretense going? Clinging to the past doesn't help, it's delusion.

>>100061 >Why are people acting like politics is even real at this point, the shows over, If by "politics" you mean the circus that shows on TV, well, the answer is that real politics is still real, and the people who hold political power sure want all that stuff on TV still.