Zen: Layer 00

Any thoughts on Zen/Chan (Buddhism)? I've been reading Instant Zen by Foyan lately. No new age navel-gazing, just removing layers. >A monk asked, "To be holy-what is it like?" >Joshu said, "To dump a mountain of soykaf on the clean plain." >The monk said, "Master, make this clear for me." >Joshu said, "Stop fuarrrking with my head."

It's great. Once you realize 90% of all the weird soykaf that it does is trying to point you towards non-duality, it clicks really well. It's kind of a meme to say this I think, but unironically Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind is a great book that should be read and reread. Don't forget to also read Laozi and Zhuangzi. Chan originally developed by integrating a lot of Daoist concepts into Buddhism.

>>96289 I'm a huge fan of Zhuangzi. That and Laozi were what got me interested in Chan a few months ago. At first I thought they were quite different but the more I learn about Chan, the more similar they seem at their core. Two different fingers pointing at the same moon. What do you think?

>>96290 I tend to treat it that way. If you want to treat the whole thing as a formal study of comparative religion, you're going to find differences of course, but this is not necessarily how people have approached it. I think an interesting perspective is the folk story of the three vinegar tasters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegar_tasters?oldformat=true It's told in various ways, but long story short: >buddha, confucius and laozi get together and taste some vinegar from the same jar >confucius thinks it's sour and needs fixing >buddha thinks it's bitter and we should let go of it >laozi thinks it's sweet just the way it is Ultimately since they're all around the same jar, the allegory seems to try to unite their perspectives, and as a matter of fact, historically in China there was a pretty big effort, even closer to Confucius's own lifetime, to see the philosophies as complementary rather than conflicting. Confucius's Junzi idea for example wasn't meant to be an ultimate goal, but rather a working model for the average person who wasn't going to go innawoods and become an enlightened monk man. This is something western authors miss out on a lot when talking about them, and generally speaking even Islamic philosophy has been more influential in western philosophical circles than Asia has, particularly East Asia.

>>96288 Not much to talk about.

>>96291 That's a good one. Zen teacher Hakuin did a nice rendition (picrel), though perhaps a little biased... The impression I get is that the western philosophical tradition is fixated on cutting distinctions. Distinctions between ideas, distinctions between methods, distinctions being -isms, even when in reality these distinctions are hazy at best. I wonder why it evolved that way over here. As for Confucius: It's interesting how Zhuangzi uses him not only as a example of "what not to do", but also uses him sympathetically at times as well. I forget if this was directly in Zhuangzi or just commentary, but I recall reading something along the lines of "Confucius mastered the Human, while Zhuangzi mastered the Heavenly" (paraphrasing). >>96295 I'm drinking tropical juice.

>>96296 That's a lovely rendition. Hakuin is great too. He wrote somewhere about this interesting technique to sort of visualize this glowing green liquid orb that slowly falls on you and seeps through your body. Kind of a meditative technique, and he seemed to propose it as a sort of healing thing. >The impression I get is that the western philosophical tradition is fixated on cutting distinctions. Distinctions between ideas, distinctions between methods, distinctions being -isms, even when in reality these distinctions are hazy at best. I wonder why it evolved that way over here. I'm not sure myself. I'm not educated enough to make a serious argument, but at least for the Anglosphere I do wonder if this isn't due to Analytic Philosophy taking over. I think something like Continental Philosophy can mesh more easily with East Asian perspectives. Having said that, I can think of Wittgenstein for example who kind of suggests that we be somewhat suspicious of language as a means to arrive at truth to mesh well to situations in which Shakyamuni Buddha chose to remain silent when asked a question. >"Confucius mastered the Human, while Zhuangzi mastered the Heavenly" That's quite fascinating, I hadn't come across that. It tracks pretty well with what they set out to do, I think.

>>96295 This one gets it. Zen Buddhism is about practice old texts are important as a part of practice, not so important without it. The way to understand zen is to make a serious dedication that you want to do it and go to a zen temple. If you can’t, sit on your ass and do zazen. Zen is just a road to follow and a very simple one. But without practice it’s difficult to stay the course.

>>96298 opinion: idk much about zen but buddhism in itself is pretty based. it certainly doesn't have to be a religion, there are even accounts of Buddha himself questioning God's existence, what comes to mind is saying that "Brahma" was just a very powerful entity who coined the word "Brahma", and that's why he is considered God opinion: i think it's pretty evident that later Western philosophy was influenced by the East. the most obvious case would be Immanuel Kant. British empiricism (and science to a degree) is obviously a continuation of the thought of Aristotle. i always felt like it was not a coincidence that Greek philosophy started to blossom after Hindu religious culture started to be more institutionalized. there were of course links between the east and west, even in those days. I doubt it's a stretch of the imagination to say that eastern philosophical and religious teachings found their way to Greece and Egypt. Look at Pythagoras, he is so radically different and unique, maybe even more 'Western' you could say compared to Socrates, Plato and Aristotle and all the other Greeks. Pythagoras almost comes across more reminiscent as an ancient Druid than a philosopher. Pythagoras was also earlier than other Greek philosophers (supposedly). anyway the point of what i'm saying is after studying the matter it sorta seems like there is a possibility that the Greek world and the Eastern world was influencing eachother in those days, and certain revolutions in the East (such as Buddhism) and ideologies found their way straight into Greece to start revolutionizing the way Greeks publicly espoused their many ideologies

I've been reading zhuangzi lately but I've also been more interested in tantric buddhism. Not because of any of the memes about it, but because of the "Buddhism for Vampires" web serial. My dad recently told me he was interested in zen but I tried talking to him about the diamond sutra and he told me he hasn't read any sutras. https://buddhism-for-vampires.com/the-vetalis-gift https://dn721604.ca.archive.org/0/items/the-diamond-sutra-collection/diamond-sutra-translation.pdf

Oh I also wanted to say this. It's cool that there's a chen thread on lainchan because I thought daoism was cool for a long time, I've posted in the past about secret of the golden flower and nobody else I know irl is remotely familiar with it or its history even if they vaguely know about zen. Does anybody have thoughts on the plum village school and thich nhat nhan? His notion of "hungry ghosts" is a meme right now. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K3-aJON5780 I found the lecture to be a little too agnostic for my tastes, but I think he has a point. People become disenchanted with their culture when it doesn't provide for them, they become listless and antisocial and attach to fringe ideologies including Buddhism. With that stated I found it a bit paternalistic as well. I think this is because it is trying to be culturally transcendental and I'm pessimistic about this possibility. >>96291 I used to love this story. I think it shows that it was told by a daoist..

>>96296 >The impression I get is that the western philosophical tradition is fixated on cutting distinctions. Distinctions between ideas, distinctions between methods, distinctions being -isms, even when in reality these distinctions are hazy at best. I wonder why it evolved that way over here. Individualism versus group cohesion bordering on spiritual collectivism (not in the soviet way). Asiatic cultures often are concerned about merging into the whole. A form of group-diplomacy exists and animates the cultures of those lands.

>>96374 Personally, as a fan of early buddhist texts, and the Thai forest tradition, I don't find this has much to do with Buddha's teaching at all, at least as I understand it. His talk has nothing to do with uprooting craving and ending dukkha, but instead is a worldly take on how to live as a community and how to heal psychological trauma. Basically it's a guide on how to live "happy" in samsara, which is not crossing the boundary of renunciation of the whole world that Buddha did. Sure, it might lead you to a better lay life, but you are still just as vulnerable to the ever changing nature of the world. How can we find true lasting hapiness in something that has the properties of anicca, anatta and dukkha? If we could perfect the world why isn't it perfected yet? It's like filling water in a bucket with no base

>>96448 Yes I agree, I notice a lot of dharma teachers do this. Re-arranging furniture on the Titanic essentially. It's not bad per se and much appreciation to anyone reducing suffering for others but it doesn't cut at the root. It's not even that cutting at the root is more difficult or more complicated. It just requires a different approach. Instead we stay clinging to "good thoughts" even if we abandon the "bad ones".

local to me is a weekly meditation meetup organized in a soto zen style. i have been attending for well over a year now. previously id read 'zen mind, beginners mind' and practiced sitting on my own. by now ive read a couple other buddhist texts and attended a short vipassana retreat. relating this thread to my own practice, i feel uneasy about doing so much without having a formal relationship with a teacher. maybe there is something to be said about the breadth of information available today through the internet. no substitute for flesh and blood of course. notable authors on buddhism, just as with randos online, can provide great entertainment once they go full didactic and start claiming one practice or another as Completely and Totally Misguided. the soykaf on zen-adjacent subreddits is especially rich. we share little snippets at the meetup for discussion. once i brought some dogen that got a fair amount of pushback for how preachy it was. go figure! the people there dig thich nhat hanh, shohaku okumura, and cheri huber, among others. naturally it's easy to go on and on about all this. one resource i often come upon: https://terebess.hu/zen/ (as in zen/mesterek/OkumuraShohaku.html)

>>96508 what differences have u noticed between your zen practices and the vipassana retreat you went to?

>>96509 the vipassana retreat was very different to me; everything was far more verbal than im used to. it was only a few days. the meditation sessions were "guided" to one aim or another -- overall it was about the Four Right Exertions. i found it very helpful for my practice and id gladly do it again. still, im drawn to the nonverbal aspects of zen, in particular the idea of nonduality. for me its a refuge and an encouragement. im curious what lains think of vipassana as a relatively new form of buddhism compared to american zen. being a nonstandard religion in the west, theres a lot of variety to the practice. things are scattered, and some feel the need to dilute things or have a particular focus... perhaps to make it more palatable? imo zen has a sometimes counterproductive obsession with japanese forms. at my meetup, despite having no teacher, the "leadership" is frustrated with the lack of rigor in our kinhin... on another note, im intrigued with how thich nhat hanh seemingly tied buddhist practice to activism. ive attended service at the brooklyn zen center where this influence is very apparent. i used to be put off by it, but i appreciate it more now -- human civilization is one organism, and in this world of information it isnt so clear that activism is self-indulgent. indeed, we are all connected, and we must communicate with one another. that being said, i hope i can try the monastic life within a few years. a friend introduced me to this guided meditation some months ago. its the only one i do regularly (i silently recite a paraphrased version of the numbered list): https://plumvillage.org/library/sutras/discourse-on-the-full-awareness-of-breathing

OH also, my highest recommendation: The Zen Studies Podcast by Domyo Burke. this lady is a real one. her work is very well-researched and easily digestible. her voice and delivery is most pleasant. every episode i learn something and gain food for thought. a treasure !!! https://zenstudiespodcast.com/suggested-syllabus/

>>96523 interesting, thank you for sharing your experience! my understanding of vipassana is that its specifically cultivated in theravada, which on the beginner levels is separate from samatha (tranquility of awareness). Zen and other forms of buddhism to my understanding see vipassana as something that you learn hand-in-hand with other qualities, and refers to a slightly different kind of insight. The metaphor I've heard is that in Therevada, vipassana and samatha are two wheels of a chariot, whereas elsewhere they are more interconnected. i think the vipassana movement was primarily spread in the west by Bhante Henepola Gunaratana , who wrote Mindfulness in Plain English. >the meditation sessions were "guided" to one aim or another -- overall it was about the Four Right Exertions this makes sense from my understanding of theravada more broadly, which is that Theravada focuses on individually perfecting the basics before you proceed. My practice began with the book in question which I feel i have become too secular for since - it contains a lot of woo like "you will be able to levitate if you meditate enough", which I am aware can be read as metaphorical and situated within the belief structure. Nevertheless I consider the framing to be dishonest. >there's a lot of variety in the practice, and some feel the need to dilute things or have a particular focus.. perhaps to make it more palatable? I think this is because -mindfulness- as a concept has experienced a bit of drift in terms of what it refers to. The greatest contributing factor to this is i would say the embracing of mindfulness as a therapeutic practice. This is generally a good thing, because it has resulted in more effective therapy, cultural progression and synthesis, and introduced a lot of people to a practice i consider religiously important. Unfortunately, the adoption has also caused some problems, namely a sense that the goals of sati have been lost sight of, and that institutional embrace has turned people away from something that would ultimately help them. There are now many people who do not really know much about buddhism but identify vaguely with mindfulness due to its incorporation into CBT/DBT, or because it represents an accessible kind of mysticism that they can identify with. There are also many people with clingy and dysfunctional interpersonal issues that would benefit from the kind of cultivation that buddhism preaches, who might even be interested in the core concerns of buddhism (ending all suffering forever, rather than just having better mental technology to cope with it) that may not even approach the subject in this lifetime because they have been psychologically poisoned by potentially abusive therapeutic practices incorporated with mindfulness. I say this because it seems like the niche of people i fall into are primarily the latter, antisocial types who reject institutions and overwhelmingly have disordered personalities. Mindfulness and buddhism have become platitudes to people who would benefit from them and i find myself having to fight that sentiment when asked for advice. >>96448 >>96450 >I don't find this has much to do with Buddha's teaching at all, at least as I understand it. >like rearranging furniture on the titanic that's a good point actually, thank you. I think the hungry ghost concept comes from an effort to teach certain people who showed up in his lectures. but it basically comes off as a patronizing rejection that situates them in a collective identity. which i can only see as its own form of clinging.

I think whatever the people are doing in this thread is counter productive. It’s ironic talking so much and theoretizing about Buddhist schools that advise against such behavior. Buddhism is neither a religion nor a philosophy, it’s about becoming. Think about modern biohacking enthusiasts that take experimental meds and break their mind with them. There’s a better way of biohacking. A centuries old tradition that changes how you operate through breath, posture and perception shift, its goal being reducing suffering. That’s Buddhism. A way to understand Buddhism is not by reading about it but practicing. Just meditate bro. And meditate however you like, only two rules are important: 1. Breathe in a rhythmic way 2. Try to prevent mind wandering, old zen trick for that is counting breaths but whatever works is fine. Don’t try to meditate for x amount of time and don’t measure yourself getting better at it. Meditation is just something you do. No goal to achieve. If you want to follow an established Buddhist school, follow one. Buddha refused to codify a specific technique, only gave directions, you’re supposed to figure out the ropes yourself. “Illuminate yourself” is about that. Scriptures should be treated in a similar way, they’re there to point you towards a right direction and to later reinforce it. At some point you just “get it” and don’t need them anymore. The way of early Buddhism, zen and chan is to practice and adjust based on bodily intuitions and what feels right. The teachings give you structure. At some point you no longer need it. And all of this is about changing who you are. Once you figure out how to meditate and what this all is about, your whole life with follow.

>>96524 I've been listening to this podcast all week. thank you. it's been helping me focus while i do other activities and stay on-task while im doing them. >>96696 admittedly, i can let my interest in religious history distract me from the core practices. but i don't see why that interest must be wrong, or counterproductive.

>>96698 Cause practice is not something you do or read about but inhabit

>>96696 You’re 100% right. Thank you for this post. At the same time, there’s joy in discussing the dhamma with others. We can talk about computers or music or depression or drugs or whatever else on here, why not dhamma? Though I agree that it can be unskillful to just debate stuff like “this school said this, that school said that, who’s right, who’s wrong”. Just asking to be hit with dukkha at that point.

>>96701 This sounds like clinging. Many people who "inhabit a practice" merely identify with it and imagine themselves embodying it, they don't meditate and have zero cultivation. "Just be" is a platitude without context. It's entirely reasonable to read and discuss sutas to understand what is meant by it.