Resentful empathy in x_nophobia*

I am interested in discussing a subset of x_nophobic impulse that has it's roots in empathy. I am using x_nophobia in an abstract sense that includes things like h_mophobia, and I am ignoring the "phobia = fear" misnomer issue. *I am not moralizing about/against x_nophobia.* That's a boring conversation. Have you ever held a resentment for the existence of another person? Not their presence, but that they have an experience that is not yours in a way that you fixate on. For instance, have you ever heard the "guns, beer and titties" type b__mer hate on m_slims- not for terrorism, perceived skin color or mass immigration, but for not letting their w_men wear bikinis in public? Isn't it weird? That the mere idea of someone living in a culture where some core thing to your identity doesn't exist, could send a shiver down your spine. How can empathy be authentic, and still be in some ways arguably close-minded? I want to ask someone in the thick of this emotion, how does it get to you? How does your empathy for a strange life take a resentful form? Do you just want to make them more like you, or is it more complicated? Here are some times that "it" has gotten to me, and observations about the experience and context, listed from higher quality to lower and more rambling observations. I will sometimes refer to it as x_nophobic Empathic Resentment or XER for short. I experienced this as a teen leftist when exposed to old timey insular christianity, a la the Amish. I didn't say anything, but I felt revolted at how constrained their lives were- not the technological part especially, but the sexual part. I think I was also disgusted at the idea of separating male and female kids in school. I wanted to interact with girls, and I guess I felt empathy for the kids who didn't get to at some ages. I was a poorly socialized 'cel myself, I did not get to kiss girls or hold their hands or whatever age-appropriate romantic things kids do. This raises the hypothesis of a sort of Freudian "projection" as a root. Was my resentful empathy somehow stronger in this instance because of my own intimate/sexual/emotional insecurity? "Oh surely these people must have lives worse than mine, because I can't be more stunted than someone else is..." This doesn't strike me as the whole story, but I know people will raise it as a possibility. I also felt distaste at their insular nature, as if their community lacking apparent social connections to broader society meant they lacked a fundamental sensation. The Islamophobic case is pretty much the same thing. Again, not the entirety of Islamophobia, but the subset based in an empathy that gives rise to distaste. Would it defuse an active case of islamo-XER if the subject were to meditate on the contexts in islamic society where equivalent experiences do exist? Like how they do have Gerontophobia. Old people living alone and there not being any kids my age that I could talk to growing up. Imagining how pointless it must be that they grow old and do nothing. What is the point in drifting along for decades- no love, you're stuck in a marriage. Nothing fun, what would the point of them having fun even be if they were stuck in a marriage. Not like having these thoughts meant I endorsed a swinger lifestyle or something, just that marriage seemed like a lifeless constraint. The game is over, you already loved and now you just need to wait for the grave. But surely people must love each other after they get married? What about coziness? People say "grow old together" in a romantic way or "die with my family around my bedside" in a wholesome way, why didn't this click for me when I felt this way? Would this have clicked if I had a real reciprocated crush at the time? What about h_mosexuals and tr_ns? The liberals have a pretty good argument on the purely logical basis when they ask "Why do you care about g_y guys being g_y, that's less competition for you!" This argument doesn't touch on lesbians when directed at men for obvious reasons, but we can consider this piecemeal. (I have never really felt the subject emotion for lesbians, but I've heard of other people feeling it for them and FtM tr_ns. Please discuss your experience as applicable.) There is the argument that straight h_mophobic guys are secretly g_y guys who just never come out of the closet. I don't buy this. (Where does h_mophobia come from then? Society has to get it from somewhere.) Also there is an aspect that clearly must be the same experience as the other one's here, but I didn't secretly want to become an amish m_slim or some unique cultural equivalent when I had anti-pr_dish XER. In all these cases there are logical implications (selfish or otherwise) of the resentment that the person would not necessarily endorse. Exception apply, people are unique, but IMO it puts x_nophobic empathic resentment into the category of neuroses. Let me know if you think this point is too artificial, I did feel like I was hamfisting it a little bit. h_mophobia would seem to imply "Wanting to get p_ssy is good, I want to get p_ssy, I can get more p_ssy if all the other guys are g_y!" Amish/m_slim-phobia -> "I want need more w_men to wear bikinis! Sister, wear a bikini please, that guy over there will appreciate it!" b__mer/marriage-phobia -> "Get married? Just us? Grow old with no one else to hold us? No romance or thrill of the chase ever again? No way, let's get another 5 dudes and 4 girls in here... Let's swap wives..." I haven't included a lot of examples of pr_dish XER because anti-pr_dish XER is more within my experience. You can imagine hating the perceived pointlessness of tasteless exhibitionism, when defined relative to a high point of emotional intimacy and religious ecstasy. "Why show your _ _ to the whole gas station, young lady? You'll never feel the joy of a loving god-honored marriage with any of these men if you don't straighten up." Maybe there is some origin in tribal logic. Like, if a tribe gets too big and has to split and then they have to sort into two different camps and start acting like different populations, you might have to move from empathy to enmity very quickly. There are all kinds of ways that doesn't make any sense and a few ways you could try to make it make sense, but I won't try to unless people are interested in evolutionary psychology type speculation. Is there a desire to make other people like you? Like you have an ego that isn't body-bound and just floats around saying "oops, wrong way to think and act, change now!" to anyone who has a stream of consciousness? I think I (hetero man) am more comfortable around g_y/bi tops than bottoms because I can relate to penetration as an experience- of course, then why am I comfortable around straight w_men? Is there a built-in mental exception for them? This whole mess seems like it probably has some interface with Girardian theory of mimesis, the logic outlining how you desire to make people like you, but then once they are like you they become your rival and so you have to fight them. Like a story about a soldier showing off a picture of his wife, and then he gets killed by a guy who wants his wife. Why do some guys post a picture of their "waifu" on the internet? Would they like it if they got into a fight over their waifu, even just a joke internet duel like "No, gawr gura is MY WIFE, NOT YOURS." I haven't read anything about Girardian theories for a long while so don't let me give you a bad impression of them. I had to dodge some post improvement filters, I hope my post is actually welcome even if I'm a little scatterbrained.

>>83890 It is not "xenophobia" to ask why am I working 40 hours a week just for the government to use my taxes to give free food, housing and healthcare to unemployed "migrants" from a violently incompatible culture. We are talking about people who don't respect democracy, rule of law, women's rights, children's rights, animal rights, due process or freedom of religion. It is not "xenophobia" to ask what the fuarrrk are they doing here.

>>83891 I have not classified any particular opinion as xenophobia, so you comment is misplaced. Please read carefully. We are not discussing categorization of sentiment as "xenophobia". This is not the thread for that discussion. We are not discussing Islam, mass migration, or the deserved label of social/political positions. There are reactions often characterized as *phobia of various things. I am interested in discussing a subset of these reactions that have their origin in empathy. Talking about labels and definitions in this thread is off topic. Do not use this thread to discuss things that are not on topic.

>>83891 Rereading my post, I see the third paragraph might have tripped you up. I was referring a sentiment that appears by considering Islamic culture in Islamic countries, from a foreign perspective. I am not referring to a concern about Islam coming to one's own country. I am also not referring to a principled objection such as "Liberal democracy must be the only system of government on earth", I am only interested in the emotion.

>Maybe there is some origin in tribal logic Its simple cultural differences lead to conflict. Strangers are also less predictable since they think different which makes them inherent dangerous to interact with.

>>83890 OP I know you don't refer to a specific xenophobia but I'm going to use race as just one example. Frantz Fanon claims racism has its roots in liberal humanism. Liberal elites invented a very narrow definition for what it meant to be a civilized human being at the same time they believe all humans are good. They expect all people to behave according to this narrow model and when people fail to live up to that, they go full blown psycho e.g. after 9/11 liberals like Tom Friedmen went nuclear on Arabs, promoting the Iraq war etc. but this isn't limited to race, you can see it with the way Clinton mocked Trump supporters as deplorable ingrates, the way rednecks and hillbillys were mocked as stupid and retarded, or the way some Americans reacted to the racial tensions by portraying blacks as stupid criminals for not behaving like good civilized domesticated liberals. Fanon describes racism (but you can say this of most phobias) that its basically a form of narcissism. The racist has a distorted sense of individual identity. The racist sees the black as someone 'other' and the opposite of himself, but he can only really know who he is by what he is not. "I am not like those people" or "their culture is so bad compared to mine." He is simultaneously repulsed and fascinated by his opposite, because the more he sees negative images of black rioters, black youths, the more he knows about himself and what it means to be white, to be the opposite of black. So the racist is someone who both rejects and identifies with blacks. You can see why an obsession with blacks is present on many racist boards and sites or why Islamophobes never shut up about Muslims. The black or the immigrant is just a mirror for their narcissistic fantasies and deep down they know this, which is why they are so neurotic. The irony is that the racist is as much the victim because they have a twisted sense of self. They are never truly an individual because they are trapped into performing a fake identity over and over again. e.g. people who don't watch X show because trannies like it. Now you can apply this line of thinking to lots of other phobias and it while it doesn't explain everything it does explain the psychology. >Is there a desire to make other people like you? Liberalism is the dominant political ideology in the West since the fall of Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany. Like Leninists, liberals believe they have a mission to spread freedom to the world. In other words, remake the world in their own image. Its what makes liberal xenophobia so intense and destructive. Look at the Iraq War. It was devised and supported by liberals and the argument for it was that we could invade Iraq and make it a liberal society. Another example is liberals going ape soykaf after Oct 7, and you saw this switch from "Palestinians are so oppressed they are cute victims" to liberals saying stuff like "fuarrrk these people they are savage they'll never be like us kill them all" and going full genocidal. The Arabs failed to live up to their liberal expectations so they marked them out for death. >>83897 There's a lot of truth to this. But you can't discount economics and politics either. Why these people? Why are some groups targets of xenophobia and not others? Why now? In the 80s there was a lot of xenophobia to punks and metal heads, which is unimaginable now.

>>83898 >in the 80s there was a lot of xenophobia to punks and metal heads those aren't xenos, they aren't foreign, its parents hating on their own kids being not obedient good students etc. If you create a culture around rebelling against mainstream culture it naturally causes backlash when you succeed and get attention. >But you can't discount economics and politics either. Why these people? Why are some groups targets of xenophobia and not others? Why now? Its about benefits obviously. The most widely known example is hippies - they became an enemy of the state because they were against war and thus hindered government selling the vietnam war to the public. Society never stopped witch hunts. They merely give undesirable people new labels to denounce them without thought and real justification.

>>83900 There are two types of xenophobia. The first is the ideological kind that's usually backed by a government or some other powerful institution. The second is just people disagreeing and fighting over differences. In the past, a role for authority figures was trying to media differences, now people in power cynically manipulate and intensify xenophobia for political and economic benefit or just out of pure spite. Xenophobia is more or less baked into the system at this point. Its how they grease the wheels.

>>83898 > they have a twisted sense of self. They are never truly an individual because they are trapped into performing a fake identity over and over again. I wonder if there is some way culture could be restructured to provide a number of feasible outlets for this tendency of xenological self-discovery. Preferably without the neurotic fallout you describe. Something along the line of paired subcultures that are mutually opposed to each other but not in a way that redundantly maps on to political coding. I'm trying to imagine something more authentic and functional than a harry potter personality test. I'm not going to try to explain why I feel this fits into the this post but I'll say it anyway. Around 2016 some internet rappers very much in the not-r_cist clique used 1950s imagery. Things like a girl shooting skeet outside a country club were "lit" somehow. I don't think this was as 50s nostalgia or a r_cist dog whistle.

>>83890 >>RE: The actual topic of empathetic anti-X Kinda hard to figure out EXACTLY what you mean. I wrote up some soykaf but realized I'm only 40% certain it applies to what you are saying. Can you explain exactly what you are trying to discuss in 1 sentence? A pair of crude counterexamples (I know you will say we are simply not discussing case#2, but I'm mentioning it anyways): #1 retards statement 1) I feel really bad for retards statement 2) I wish retards were not retarded conclusion: I should hate retards. counter-observation: I do not hate retards. Thus, empathetic anti-X-phobia is a wacky tobaccy lie. #2 litterers statement 1) I do not feel bad for people who intentionally litter. I hope they all get hit by meteorites and die painfully. statement 2) I wish people who intentionally littered did not litter. conclusion: I should not hate people who litter, since I do not empathise with them. counter-observation: I really, really hate people who litter. I was serious about the meteorite thing (see attached). >>The liberals have a pretty good argument on the purely logical basis when they >>ask "Why do you care about g_y guys being g_y, that's less competition for you!" >>good logical argument >completely ignores 2 main arguments against homosexuality: 1) Ungodly (alt: degenerate, un-natural, etc.) 2) Gays diddle children >>>> non-glitterboys Not bringing it up to have the whole argument out, but in my experience these are the main two reasons people don't like users. An argument that fails to address these two issues is not a 'good' argument, it isn't even an argument, just a non-sequitur (alt: 'gotcha', 'bazinger', etc.) >>Like, if a tribe gets too big and has to split and then they have to sort into >>two different camps and start acting like different populations, you might have >>to move from empathy to enmity very quickly. Not a fan of this line of thinking. To my understanding, tribal conflict in primative society was a 'very bad idea' (tm), because you had to spend most of your energy not starving and not dying to tigers. Not to say it didn't happen, but the big tribe that split into two cooperative (or at least non-antagonistic) groups would almost certainly outlast the big tribe that split into two competitive groups. We could argue that resource competition would FORCE enmity, but: 1) then a biological mechanism would be unnecessary 2) resource competition only applies to a "saturated" environment (otherwise you can just, y'know, leave), which would be late-tribal/early tech, and then we have to deal with a lot of OTHER issues (e.g: warfare in early agricultural society was really hard, because you had to tend fields) Even in the early history of rome, wars were limited to the small parts of the year inbetween planting/harvest (can't fight over winter since supplies are too hard to move)- and this was a burgeoning military nation-state, not just a tribe of half-starved injuns.

>>83907 If I could put XER in a nutshell it would be something like: "I feel uncomfortable/disgusted when considering the conscious experience of [person type, culture, etc] and it drives me resent them" The word resent works really well here because apparently it has a meaning that involves sensation. Maybe it would be better to weaken the "and it drives me to resent them" in a way that does not necessitate that you wind up resenting them- I think the cause is more interesting than effect. I would remove this latter part altogether except it would imply that I had anti-torture-victim XER when I felt overwhelmed by the realization that many innocent people may be tortured somewhere in the world right now. Not an un-useful contrast to draw, but it doesn't fit the Xenophobic part of XER. In your first example, someone who follows the logic "Retards have a soykaf life. I can imagine it really, really is like kicking dead whales down the beach to never experience all the intellectual stuff that I can. I wish there weren't any retards to have that experience." fits the bill for anti-retard XER, regardless of whether that manifests as them killing people or trying to develop gene therapy and brain-machine interfaces to uplift people with broken brains. That is the whole thing, though I am particularly fascinated with the cases where XER sprouts from a gut reaction, not a sequence of "logical" steps. In the retard example, you might have a stronger disgust reaction if you were confronted unexpectedly with mentally disabled consumers of sadistic c____ p___, which are a real thing somehow. Alone, it might not hit that hard that some retarded people lack the intellect required for morality. XER is not involved in your distaste for litterers. >these are the more common anti-gay arguments Fair enough. Most of my homophobia has been gut reaction. >Not a fan of this line of thinking. Yeah, I need to set up a good mental alarm for when I veer off into baseless speculation in a context where I have no expertise, high off post mania. "Oh yeah dude let me just imagine how primitive groups growing past the dunbar number handle social reorganization ooh I bet it's like mitosis yep write that down" This part of my post would make more sense if I said rivalry instead of enmity. Violence against outgroup not as a frequent thing, but as a conserved possibility to maintain orderly relations. Whatever sort of process makes people from a tribe leave and move on to unsaturated territory probably has some threat of violence backing it. But unless they have a reason to try to come back from the frontier it doesn't seem like they would ever have a reason to feud with former kin while bearing a culture that has drifted away enough to trigger some sort of narcissism of small differences. So that argument you make about the time period being small seems pretty solid to my non-expert sensibilities. I don't know if human ancestor social primates could have contributed some evolutionary time.

>>83908 I meant to add that XER is probably a neurotypical thing. I'm not sure if I'm that nt but it feels like a definite nt thing, so it might not be something that you feel if you aren't. The example I gave in the "mentally disabled consumers" paragraph probably muddies the waters a bit, I think XER should refer to finding disgust with the person, not merely their proclivities by proxy of their consciousness. Though honestly I think the thread theme is pretty well established and definitions are a boring nitpick. The tragedy seems to me that such a person could exist and not understand how awful their proclivities are.

>>83890 xenophobia: is in its name its rejection of the alien usually for the safety of the familiar a cell does not want some random garbage in itself it wants only things that benefit it so it constructs a membrane to filter all the bad alien things and let in all good things this is the origin of all love and hate Americans hate muslims coz they belive they are thread to american lead world order Str8s hate Gays coz they believe they are disrupting normal social order And you hate old people coz they are were hindering your upbringing and amish coz they are disruptive to your internal model of the world

>>83890 Green-beard effect but instead it tries to rectify others but through enforcing ideas or one's own programming upon others (with a different programming) so to increase their number? Think it's simply just feedback loop and applied xenophobia minus the brutality/violence like in the older times due to more civilized world.