Sex and possessiveness

Hello lain, I'm dealing with a real life situation that's made me re-evaluate how most people think about sex and 'rights' of sex. Basically: my friend of 13 years was seeing this girl (having casual sex with) for about 3 weeks, developed unreciprocated romantic feelings, and was then broken up with. They broke up in mid December. Around April he got the impression he might have a chance of getting back together with her and started bringing me with him to go see her and her friends. I got along with that group of friends far better than he and he decided to stop seeing them as much, said to me he didn't want to try and get back with this girl anymore, but made an offhand comment basically along the lines that he would be mad if anyone had sex with her (I thought this was a joke). A bit over a week ago me and this girl confessed to one another we had romantic inclinations towards one another. The day after we had (very good) sex. The day after that we both left the country and probably won't see one another for 3 months. My friend though found out we had sex and has decided he no longer wants to be friends anymore and is denying my requests to speak with him in person. This whole situation has me thoroughly puzzled. On the one hand, I can understand someone being upset i.e. sad that someone they thought of romantically has moved on, and that those feelings might be compounded by it being a friend that was moved on to. On the other, I can't imagine being so angry that one would end a 13 year friendship over it. Either way though, it seems to me to imply a weird 'possessive' attitude over another human being such that sex is something someone has rights to and others do not. I find this attitude to be really gross honestly, it's a weird pathological objectification imo. To be fair, I am autistic and often misunderstand these value systems many people seem to hold dear. Can anyone help me understand the dynamics of what's going on here? My other friends seem to universally think I'm an asshole, with only two exceptions.

>>80647 >I thought this was a joke No, you didn't. You decided to think it was a joke. > I can't imagine being so angry that one would end a 13 year friendship over it. Don't be too surprised if you find yourself having less respect from the people around you who know what happened. >Can anyone help me understand the dynamics of what's going on here? You betrayed your friend for a hole. You're a soykaf "friend." -- That's it. There's nothing more to it other than pontification or bullshit justification.

>>80649 >for a hole Lmao proving my point. Are modern people really so unable to conceive of others as anything other than objects?

You talk about your friend behind his back and give vibes of contempt towards him. His friendship with you was a mistake. He did right to ditch you. You're a bad person. Nobody is in need of knowing what happens between you and friends.

It's a very primal thing. Truthfully, I don't think you're a terrible person because of the fact that she didn't like your friend. If they were together and she cheated on him, that'd be different, but that's not what happened. He's just frustrated that you took the slut he was fuarrrking from him, even though you really didn't steal her away and she just decided that she didn't like him anymore. Maybe his feelings will change, I think he'll just be frustrated for some temporary period of time. If he doesn't, he should really grow up because cutting off a long term friend over some skank is dumb.

>>80650 Your friend thought he had something special with that girl and probably still had feelings for her. That didn't work out, and then you go and clap her cheeks. This isn't really about seeing people's as objects, but more respecting relations people have with each other.

It's simple. Your friend did not move on and was hurt by his friend having sex with her like you said. There is nothing puzzling about this. He just has to get over it and thats it. There is no larger story about people being obsessive or obectifying. It's mostly your own shock at his actions (which are immature but understandable). Just make sure that he knows that you are ready to talk whenever he gets over it because he will in time unless he's a retard

>>80654 >which are immature but understandable How's op immature? If my friend banged my ex, I would be pretty pissed too. I wouldn't make a big deal out of it, but I would cut him off quietly. It's kinda a weird thing to do

>>80652 actually thinking about it now it is still fuarrrked up what you did, but i wouldnt say it makes you a terrible person. i guess one can argue that your friend is being immature in ways, but if it were me i would have definitely silently distanced myself from you, i wouldn't have had a meltdown though. he has the choice to be a better person than you by moving past what you did.

>>80655 Sorry but I was talking about his friend. Did you read carefully or was I unclear?

>>80653 >go and clap her cheeks Do you not see how degrading this is lol? Neither her nor I planned with mal-intent to have intense romantic feelings for one another (to my knowledge, at least) and it's clearly not solely about sex. >respecting relations people have with each other What does this mean, genuinely?

Maybe he's just sad and processing it in an unhealthy way. Usually if someone is sad they take it as just not being compatible and might want to work on themselves and some others get angry at other people which can be dangerous. These kind of people tend to not be good at self reflection. It's not really about sex, it's just the nature of sex being an intimate act and it causes feelings of disgust and sickness if you think of someone you love being with someone else in such an act. By "this girl" I assume you meant you slept with the girl he has feelings for then in that case he felt betrayed by you in your friendship because you pursued someone he was trying to pursue still and he can't look at you because he thinks of her.

>>80651 This is a retarded series of statements: OP was entirely anonymous and nowhere did I attribute anything negative to my friend. I love him dearly, I just do not understand what he is feeling right now. >>80658 Meant to include this in the reply but fuarrrked it up phone-posting: This wasn't meant to be an AITA blogpost thing, but using an event in my life to discuss people/society's views on sex, romance, and how we perceive one another. It seems fairly clear to me now that people that aren't me have weird boundaries around how sex works; this is obvious to me because I wouldn't care if a friend had sex with my ex-girlfriend, let alone a girl I only saw for a couple weeks. I'm not asking whether I'm in 'the wrong' because it's been made clear to me I already am: I am wondering about the underlying dynamics of how exactly what I've done is construed to 'be wrong' in the first place. >flood detected

Sexual and romantic feelings are very powerful and cause people to act irrationally. For instance, you interpreted your friend's wishes as a joke and then did the thing he explicitly said he would get mad about. He wasn't acting rationally in the first place, because feelings linger for a long time, but you are the one who betrayed his trust. If you're actually friends it will blow over eventually. Just talknit out and maybe hug.

>>80650 >Lmao proving my point >Are modern people really so unable to conceive of others as anything other than objects? None of these things matter though. You missed my point and you're falling back on a retarded view. I'll restate: "There's nothing more to it other than pontification or bullshit justification." So, you don't actually care and you're looking for justification for why you're right and he's in the wrong. Just because you believe that I am "proving your point" doesn't mean soykaf, because I'm not. The girl meant nothing to you. Let's look at the bullshit you're epousing >Either way though, it seems to me to imply a weird 'possessive' attitude over another human being such that sex is something someone has rights to and others do not. lol we both know this isnt what it's about. >I find this attitude to be really gross honestly, it's a weird pathological objectification imo. This is just "free love" boomer bullshit. >To be fair, I am autistic and often misunderstand these value systems many people seem to hold dear. "I am different and thus outside of society." -- No, you are just making up a convenient reason for you to be able to "have your cake and eat it." This is my last response to you. I will give you a tl;dr: You're just not a good person.

>>80665 Let me refer you to >>80660 >I'm not asking whether I'm in 'the wrong' because it's been made clear to me I already am: I am wondering about the underlying dynamics of how exactly what I've done is construed to 'be wrong' in the first place. So no, I'm not trying to justify my actions or 'pontificate', I'm literally just trying to understand other people's ideas on this. I don't really care if I'm in the wrong or not, or a 'soykafty' person or not, I'm trying to figure out how we have constructed this paradigm of right and wrong in relation to sex and romance. If you'd have read the thread you know that >the girl meant nothing to you Is clearly false. I am genuinely romantically interested in this girl and vice versa. That we happen to both hold non-monogamous views on sex and love is entirely incidental and discovered after the event.

>>80660 It is emotional attachment and fear of being replaced by or compared to others.

>>80647 Why is the prohibition against "objectification" somehow more innocent than "objectification" itself? Why shouldn't people be possessive over those they love? I can't fuarrrking stand this new sexual moralism which tries to portray itself as independent and free and tolerant while condemning most of human sexuality and sentiment as oppressive or "gross". People who believe in things like not sleeping with your friend's ex-girlfriend are not any more irrational than you are. You've intellectualized the situation and pretended like you are deconstructing the supposed irrationality of romantic attachment, but the self serving implications of this stance are obvious.

Sexual relationships are a matter of intimacy and the shared moment causes some very primal degree of pair bonding that those new to it (or smitten) are guided by. Somatically it's an experience almost close to the divine. Analyze the sharing of flesh and the embrace of another and the emotions this conjures: closeness, belonging, safety. Have this ingrained in your mind and you'll want it to last. It's nature's way of telling you to breed and stick together long enough to ensure the survival of your offspring. It's also a very human emotion: you don't want someone you love fuarrrking somebody else. Love for the egotistic self is divine, sex with another is a filthy display of degeneracy. Promiscuity might just be a cause for or a symptom of sociopathy.

>>80706 There isn't really any hard rules it just depends on the people involved. The problem is when people are being inflexible and imposing on others against their wishes.

>>80647 Think of it like this: being around someone you have sexual/romantic feelings for but who you can't be with is emotionally painful. Even if they made the right choice and/or are totally within their rights to not want a relationship, the aspect of this you feel is that they hurt you. So what would emotional support from a friend entail there? What you might want is for someone to show they care about how you feel, to take your side, and act to protect your feelings, and further entangling the source of your pain and now-effectively-enemy with your life is the opposite of that. Sex has implications for defining social alliances/groups. Behaving as a sexual rival is not compatible with behaving as an ally, by doing what you did you likely made it emotionally harder to continue the friendship.

It is possessiveness. I wouldn't lay it on sex though, it seems more of a masculinity issue, as someone who also has been in a very similar situation and feels similarly towards sexual and romantic interactions, for me this seems to come from a place of entitlement and the idea that as a man, you should basically have the traits of arnold shcwarzenegger's conan the barbarian. You fuarrrk women, you are physically over powering and you are respected by your peers. Anything that shatters this view on any level creates animosity between men. Being emotionally attached to a woman (specifically a straight man attracted to a woman, gay relationships have entirely different dynamics) is a level of vulnerability and weakness, failing at that relationship leaves the sense of self of your average man bruised, the word "ego" would be appropriate but i think it's deeper than that, it really is the sense of self; the assumptions this persons holds true for what they are and how they are perceived. Worse even if someone else successfully has a relationship with that woman, even worse if they are your friend. So yes, your friend is hurt, deeply hurt, maybe even having an ego death right now. I agree that this is all extremely childish and holding these views makes you a brittle and socially inept functional teenager. Which is why i have drifted away from people who behave like this. Incidentally most of my friends are not straight men; although i am a man (but not straight). Sex is fun. Relationships can be fun. People who view social dynamics as a power game are frequently soulless husks who aren't even good at the thing they try to gamify. The best thing you can do for your long term sanity is to let your 13 year old friendship end. Your friend was a bitch and he will continue to be a bitch for many years. Unless of course they are really your intimate friend, which seems unlikely given his behavior, if that's the case you might want to wait a while before trying to have a conversation and explain how you feel to them, the best way to go about it is to make it clear that you were not trying to disrespect him in any way; soykaf just happens.

>>80710 It hits people different. Some cant bare even seeing someone anymore and others like myself cant be without them as something even if it's painful. >>80713 Why masculine? It's not like girls and feminine guys don't also feel the same sometimes.

>>80713 there is the simply practical issue of you dont want std's so you dont want your partner to fuarrrk around collecting them. Especially since some are livelong with no cure. Doesnt relate to OP but imo thats the predominant reason why you dont want your partner to fuarrrk around.

>>80720 >Why masculine? It's not like girls and feminine guys don't also feel the same sometimes. Totally. My point of view comes from personal experience, not any claim to legitimacy beyond that. I've had possessive girlfriends who behaved in just the same manner, but i've seen this behavior in men far more often and to me it seems intimately tied to masculinity. Hell, i've behaved like that when i was a teenager. >>80721 I'm not sure what kind of sex you're having that STDs are such a concern. Yes, there is a chance even with condoms. There is also a chance a lightning will strike your head and kill you. While i agree with you that it is a possibility, it comes across to me as old people concerned that their kids will be abducted by online strangers because they logged on to ragnarok online twice. Technically possible, but a bit out of touch. With that said, if you have such a concern you can communicate this to your partner. I hate loud noises, when my partner speaks on their phone it's usually really goddamn loud, so i asked them to do it in a different room with a closed door because it bothered me. If i had such a fear of STDs or didn't trust them to have safe sex, or didn't donate blood twice a year, i would raise those issues and discuss how we can solve it, or end the relationship if it's unsolvable. Communication is not the same as possessiveness, which is the topic of this thread. You don't need to infer or guess how your partner should behave. Just ask and talk.

>>80723 Your safety idea is highly unrealistic. There's a statistic like 80% chance to catch something already with just 5 partners. They had a full chart #partner <-> risk correlation but going further is basically pointless so i only bothered to memorize the convincing number. The condom adds of low risk aint real simply because regular contact bypass condoms in first place even if your condom doesnt break or you simply fuarrrk raw on the pill.

>>80724 All theoretically possible. Just like logging on to ragnarok and being groomed by epstein in 2005. However, reality does not convey the same level of danger as that statistic. There are some diseases that are inevitable like HPV, unless you're younger (2000+ i think?) then you've probably been vaccinated against it already. Other than that i really cannot think of any sexually transmitted disease that is such a concern on a practical level to warrant a change in lifestyle to that degree. I went out with people who have AIDS, they communicated it beforehand, we used a condom, i do not have aids. I would not go out with someone who i feel like they would be sneaky about STDs, it's not such a lurking danger that you need to shape your entire life around it. It's like being scared of going to a restaurant because the food might be poisoned, it's a reasonable possibility but it's not something you can really attribute to a universal truth or perception. Also you have tools to analyze the possibility of that restaurant serving poisoned or unkempt food, it's not a gacha game. Also don't mistake this as an attempt to turn you into a sexual deviant shooting loads all over town or convince you of anything, if you do not feel safe having sex with multiple people or dating people who do, you shouldn't. But giving your perspective as if it was some fundamental truth of how humans behave is a bit silly and really comes across as out of touch.

>>80647 All’s fair in love and war

>>80713 In general I think I agree even though most people don't seem to. I really can't wrap my head around the way most people view sex. For instance, a different scenario had a girl affirm that we weren't in a monogamous relationship, but be upset when I informed her I'd hooked up with someone else. So it seems even that people with what appears to be an ideological commitment to 'free love' don't actually see it that way. It truly does appear that for most people sex is intimately wrapped in power dynamics that I truly just don't relate to. But that relates to what >>80720 said in that it doesn't appear to be solely an issue of masculinity. While I think one could make an argument that traditional masculine roles demand 'possessiveness' to some degree and that therefore sex has to be treated as a power game it seems more likely that innately our society is structured in such a way that love sex and power are deeply interrelated, which I guess should be obvious. That said, I'd be curious if people here believe it's possible to deeply love one person while having sex with multiple, moreover, if it's possible to deeply love multiple.

>>80727 >That said, I'd be curious if people here believe it's possible to deeply love one person while having sex with multiple, moreover, if it's possible to deeply love multiple. If you can see yourself deeply loving more than one person in a non sexual way, i don't see why a sexual relationship would be any different. Personally there are 4 people in this world whom i deeply love, 2 of them i've had sex with, one of them i haven't but would like to, and one of them i have no sexual interest in but still would risk my life for their wellbeing. I legitimately don't understand the premise of not being able to love more than one person even if you are in a monogamous relationship. Feeling love towards someone comes from sharing experiences together and feeling understood and understanding them in return. Sex may come naturally if you two have that inclination, but it has nothing to do with what you feel for each other.

>>80727 It could be more than possession. For some people would not want to move into a house that was owned by a serial killer unless it was their only option because they feel the house has some of that person's essence tied to it. This might occur with people that they have a sense their own essence and the essence of others rubs off on people and perhaps they feel that their essence intermingling with the essence of someone they do not have fond feelings for feels like that their own essence is being contaminated.

>>80727 >>80728 There is no limit on how many people you can like but there is a hard limit on expressing it. More people = less time / person. People get mad over you having more than them cause it comes down to you spending less effort on them.

>>80737 Oh, absolutely. But this is a natural aspect of living on this planet, that's like stating that there is no limit to how much you love lasagna but there is a limit to how much lasagna your stomach can fit. Yes, you can love an infinite number of people, but if all these relationships are high maintenance it will be impossible to keep up with them. From the 4 people i mentioned, only 1 i interact with on a daily basis. Love does not imply romantic love or romantic relationship.

>>80647 OP you are a user and an asshole. I feel bad for your friend wasting 13 years of friendship on you. Hope you change for the better someday...

>>80756 OP was insensitive but also didn't really do anything wrong aside from that. It would be different if this friend of his hadn't already been rejected, now that would have been a dick move if it was about sex but since actual romantic feelings were involved it's more complicated and he should have let his friend know he also has developed some feelings for her, not that he needs his approval first but it would have helped. I dont think there is any way this could have been approached someone wouldnt get hurt.

>>80757 He's bad because he hates and disrespects his friend, the female is unrelated at all. It's the problem of his friend that he gets upset over a female, but instead of recognizing that OP comes here and bitches around about how he thinks his friend is retarded, all the while masking it is a genuine question. You need to be retarded to genuinely not understand why a male is upset over loosing a female. But hey, OP is a normalglitterboy, so he absolutely needs to tell everyone he'd upset him friend by fuarrrking his ex.

>>80759 OP did mention being autistic. Some tend to not understand why certain social rules exist intuitively because that is part of what autism is, so it has to be explained to them. OP couldnt learn from this if he doesnt know why people feel this way.

>>80647 Understanding the underlying reasons/mechanisms may be a bit of a project. Maybe you can kind of bootstrap from cognitive empathy by trying to imagine your thoughts and feelings that would result if you broke up with a girl and then one of your close friends started dating her, perhaps more successfully/happily. Maybe you're simply happy for both of them because they found what they needed. But maybe this is only what you know would be a good answer. Maybe you would be plagued by insecurities and questions that are unfair to actually ask people, like what he has that you don't, or whatever. Which, granted, is irrational, but the crux of the problem lies precisely in this domain of irrational human motivations. People make snap decisions based on subjective criteria that they aren't even consciously aware of, and then they make up a rationale after the fact so they can maintain their logical and rational self-image. Understanding and integrating this is vital. I know autists benefit from straightforward if-then procedure. If you have feelings for someone who has already dated one of your friends (not acquaintances), then the best practice is to put the friendship first and have a private conversation with the friend in which you express the feelings you're having and scope out how he would feel about you moving forward with her. This isn't the place to argue, debate, or try to get your friend to make it make sense for you. It should be either he says it would be a problem for him and you say you'll respect that because you value the friendship more, or he gives you his blessings and you thank him and let him know he's welcome to bring it up if the situation ever gets him feeling some kind of way. Maybe you won't understand it yet, but you don't need to understand it to implement it. A wide variety of things become easier to deal with once you learn to simply let some things not make sense. >>80654 >Just make sure that he knows that you are ready to talk whenever he gets over it because he will in time unless he's a retard Just to be clear, do not actually tell your friend "I'm ready to talk whenever you get over it", nor should you drop any obnoxious aphorisms about time healing all wounds. It may be necessary to at least pretend you feel bad even if you don't yet understand what there is to feel bad about.

>>80759 >OP comes here and bitches around about how he thinks his friend is retarded I'd ask you to find one instance of me doing that. I truly love my friend, I just don't understand how his brain works which is of course not any fault of his but entirely an issue of my own. I don't know why you would ascribe malicious intent on my behalf when I've already admitted in this thread that 'I'm in the wrong.' As said before, I'm more interested in how we have constructed this 'wrongness' around sex and love. >tell everyone You think too highly of yourself, if I wanted approval or attention I'd do it irl.

>>80772 You're a typical glitterboy in denial. I've been through this, I know the pattern very well. It's time you admit you're a glitterboy and don't pretend to be genuine.

>>80783 I mean I'm bisexual, sure.

You are explaining complicated social dynamics with simplified labels that were made by people who later on denounced them and were further on used to proliferate oppression in liberal democracies denying systemic influences. Try to think ontologically instead of empirical terms that obfuscate progress, tip number 1. Tip number 2: going along with a more phenomenological type of thinking that tolerates intricacy, indeed people are different in their ability to let go of jealousy and things akin. Generally if you feel deeper you have more love and hate for the person. (Ground it in Klein if you want) Why do I take it as axiomatic? Experience. Following this logic, let’s suggest your friend had deeper feelings for the girl than one might first realize. Not considering this option (irregardless of the labels that you subscribe your cognition into which are rendered relatively half obsolete by their own political implications) would be as simple as a manifestation of intellectual laziness, and most importantly presupposes that he Couldn’t See Her As A Person, which is likely the extrapolation of your own bias against postmodernity (“they see them all as holes and are possessive of them!”), not necessarily a characteristic of your friends personality. Once you have correctly assessed this option in a way that is congruent with reality, you have your answer. Thinking of this issue only in terms of sexual possessiveness misses out on the most important aspect of the human psyche, the soul, and you missing out on that might not be necessarily a fault of your friend.

Just to make everything extremely clear, the asshole-ish thing here is presupposing your friend has no capacity to develop deep feelings towards a girl howsoever. Hopefully, that clearly answers the question.

>>80647 I don't see the issue. He did his thing for a while, it didn't work. It didn't end in his mind, but it ended in reality. Then you did your thing for whatever reason. His mind, his problem. You aren't your friend and you have your own life to live. In this particular case I see that what you did could create tensions, but I don't see it as wrong. Your friend has no right to expect his emotional state to deny you and other's an experience that doesn't directly involve him. That's absurd and weird parasocial "merging" behavior. Again, you aren't your friend, he isn't you. He needs to get that through his head. If after 13 years he expects to deny you what he got to have, then good riddance. Let him go pout for a while.

>>80647 It's hard to objectively rationalize the selfish, territorial desires of animals who view other animals as objects to obtain, storage, exhibit, sculpt and dispose of. Simple as wooden chess pieces in a game of power struggle. I mean, I understand your friend's perspective because I'd have the same reaction myself, but I recognize that there's nothing logical about it. It's all possessiveness, at its core, and there's different ways of dealing with it. Better that your friend cuts contact than hits you up for a spontaneous hiking trip in Alaska. I do think there's varying degrees of "animality" to it, though. There's the people who recognize the aspect of humanity and free will in another person's choices, even if it stings, and let it go to pursue something more worthwhile, and then there's the kind of people you see in the replies here, the kind that view human relations as nothing more than points to a score board, comfortable stripping down an entire individual existence to "hole" so that they can tear it down, throw their resentment at it, lash out to protect their ego and hide from their own sense of failure in this mental power-system that they've built up for themselves. They make sex pretty fuarrrking dreadful, to be honest.

>>80793 the way you put the "friend" under the umbrella of "possessive animals" with no other evidence than basic human jealousy makes me wonder if you're the OP responding to himself.

>>80795 As if it would even matter. The characterization of his friend as an animal is not inaccurate. fuarrrker needs to grow up.

>>80796 if his friend did more than just distance himself and end the relationship, your comment would be accurate. however in this case he made his choice (which is an appropriate one for a sensitive person instead of, say, starting a scandal) and the OP made his choice. nothing wrong here.

>>80797 Okay, yeah. I don't disagree with that. His friend didn't (directly) retaliate, he just separated. Which is up to him.

>>80793 What does the, "the aspect of humanity and free will in another person's choices" actually consist of? People are not free agents.

>>80799 free-will is performative (in the philosophical butlerian sense, so placeded) or self-reinforced. you believe in free will, you have more of it. once you have it, where do you direct it - thats the real question

>>80800 Assuming this is true, what if you don't believe in it? What is the value in having more free will?

>>80801 the value is purely consequential in terms of general utilitarian value for the good of humanity as a whole. if people believe in free will, more soykaf gets done. the issue is maintaining focus on the freedom to choose (frommian freedom for) from freedom plain (freedom from) in order to shift from a capitalist psychological economy

>>80789 The second half of this was deeply enlightening, would you mind explaining further the first part though?

>>80795 I, as OP, want to be super clear and clarify once again that I am not trying, have not been trying, to diminish my friend in any way or even pose him as 'lower' than me in any sense as so many people in this thread have suggested. I am coming from a place of non-understanding, which is not to suppose any sort of difference in intellect or virtue or 'humanness' etc. >>80765 This was really helpful, thank you. One thing though: you mention both not understanding and still implementing and also that >It may be necessary to at least pretend you feel bad even if you don't yet understand what there is to feel bad about. Is it not 'morally worse' somehow for me to do these things disingenuously provided I don't understand/don't truly feel the urge to do this? I will likely do it any way since I value this friendship and I would like to remain friends and I understand sometimes things 'need to be performed' for the benefit of social harmony. That said, it brings two things to mind: am I not a 'soykaftier person' for having to 'perform' and also if this 'performance' is detected by others, could I not end up in a worse situation? >>80789 Could you briefly reword the problem I'm posing to be more in line with your first tip so that I can see the difference? I can somewhat understand what you're getting at but I'm not sure I'd be able to modulate my language to fit as such.

>>80804 >Is it not 'morally worse' not him, but yes I think it is. On the other hand, can't you at least understand that friend made request (you thought was joke, but now evidently was not), you disobeyed request->friend is upset ? You don't need to understand or agree with his motivations to follow that and feel bad about it; seemingly his friendship is probably worth more to you than this girl.

>>80802 But I don't care about the good of humanity, at least not in any kind of utilitarian sense. The desire for more free will and the concept itself exists to morally indict things you don't like by either castigating them by contrasting them against the "higher" freedom of the will, or by assigning moral responsibility to them (I.e you chose to do x, so you must be punished). Its curious that you implicitly treat certain drives as "animal" and not having been the result of free will. Particularly those regarding possessiveness and objectification. The reason is that you are a slave moralist. Its goes exactly like this, "The master is driven by animal drives to possessiveness, and I think he actually secretly desires self-consciousness and mutual understanding. I, the slave, assume a position of not objectifying the master, so I represent a higher stage of consciousness and freedom that advances the general human good. I am the only one capable of providing him his freedom, and by enslaving me he makes himself unfree. I am superior to him." This is the basic structure of progressivism, and also its denigration of certain sexual behaviors. By exhibiting a desire which is outside of this progressive dialectic, you are literally "becoming-animal". You are treated as something childish, adolescent... the desire is reinterpreted along the lines of ego. If you are sexually possessive, it is only because you are fragile and seek to protect your ego! They'll castigate the ego, while deliberately inseminating and cultivating the concept of the ego so that they can leverage it to manipulate you into repressing the desire. Trying to protect your ego? What are you, pathetic? Grow up, little man! Would any such critcisms have any purchase without the ego...? Those that decry possessiveness, far from wanting ego death, only want to dangle ego death in the manner of the carrot and the stick so as to genocide those sexual sentiments which make you a bad little boy.

>>80806 Sure but that goes back to the root of the problem which is that 'obeying' that request necessarily implies a justified ownership in some manner over this girl by virtue either of them having had sex one or multiple times or by his previous having-loved-her. In either instance, it requires an acknowledgement of his ownership over her, which is perceivably 'morally wrong' in its own way. In retrospect, I would've respected this request had I realized it was earnest simply to avoid this whole big scandal and keep the friendship even if I don't respect the principle of it. Now that it's already happened though, I'm not sure what to do. Probably I'll keep seeing the girl.

>>80808 I dont think it implies such ownership over the girl at all, the ownership if anything is over you. If it was ownership over the girl he'd have told her not to sleep with anyone.

>>80804 sure, google psychocentrism, post-leftist theory, foucault (on the psychiatric relationship that fails to grasp the subject) & other The most important part of my message, though, consisted in the notion of failing to grasp the Subjectivity of the Other. I can see you appeal to dumbfoundedness ("i dont understand") a lot throughout your texts but, although im not the all-moral orbiter of all, a better approach might be in not excusing not knowing a matter of the subject which might hurt other people, if you are here to learn and improve. As if, its better to learn that, here - what people repeatedly pointed out, is that you paint, knowingly or unknowingly being less relevant, a picture of your friend as of a posessive fvck, essentially completely denying him Depth or the ability to form deep attachments None of the people on this imageboard will tell you why you do that, no matter how many times you paraphrase "i don't understand tell me more" - its a question you can only answer to yourself by yourself.

>>80808 If your friend said "by the way, I really hate the color yellow, please just don't wear it around me" would you just wear yellow around him because you think there's nothing wrong with the color yellow, and you happen to like it? Would you then be surprised when he doesn't talk to you any more, and post on the internet about how your friend was in the wrong because actually yellow is a great color? Anyway, while there is an element of possessiveness in romance and especially sex, it is not the only emotion that explains your friend's behavior. Pretty clearly his feelings were hurt by this person and he is not over her yet. Probably his sore feelings got worse as he was around her more. He had some hope, however irrational, that she might love him back. Then you went and fuarrrked her. That isn't something a good friend does.

>>80811 That is a comically bad example. No one would not wear yellow because it would be hilarious to annoy your friend. You would have had a better argument if it was a literal phobia of the color yellow and it triggers some PTSD and that was explained along with the background story. Then intentionally wearing yellow around them would be a dick move. Although it still is a bad example because yellow occurs in nature, it is everywhere so it would be unlikely to occur.

>>80810 On the one hand, I see what you're saying does apply to me and I won't dispute the fact that an 'appeal to dumbfoundedness' does not constitute a real 'moral argument' so to speak. On the other, I don't see how I'm denying the ability of my friend to form a 'deep attachment' if anything my issue lies precisely in the ramifications of a 'deep attachment.' Does my friend's deep attachment to this girl then mean that she is thus somehow 'off limits' to me? Why does a deep attachment entail possession? The only way that it would make sense that I should avoid seeing someone because my friend has a deep attachment to them is if that constituted a claim of ownership that I am then 'usurping.' In other words, why does having had a deep attachment to someone then necessitate not seeing them happy with someone else? I love my friend, truly, but I cannot seem to reconcile myself to how he views love and sex. I have earnestly thought back to similar experiences. I encouraged my best friend, once, to pursue a relationship with a girl I'd once had feelings for and slept with casually. I encouraged the same friend once to try and hook up with my ex-girlfriend when it became clear he could. But okay, maybe I just have different views than other people, that's fine: I should just respect that some people feel differently. In that case though where am I supposed to draw a line? Are the intensity of my feelings for someone not 'valid'? Should they submit to the fact that someone else 'had her first?' I haven't been trying to morally justify myself at all in this thread, I do really feel bad that my friend is so upset over this. At the same time, I feel bad as well that I don't fit into the norm here, that I really don't see an issue with my behavior had it not upset him. If it hadn't upset him, would I still be 'in the wrong?' I'm still confused.

>>80804 Yeah, I think I said that part wrong. You shouldn't simply pretend to feel bad if you don't. It would probably be as obvious and insulting as any insincere apology. I think what I was actually going for was that you should try to find something you can genuinely say you feel bad about. Like maybe you can honestly say you feel bad because you hurt him, and because you don't fully understand how/why you hurt him, and that you're trying to understand it better (make sure phrasing doesn't turn this into a "sorry if you were offended" non-apology).

>>80813 Maybe you don't know why your friend hates yellow so much, or maybe you are willfully ignorant of your friend's reasons for hating yellow. Point being, if your first reaction to "my friend told me not to do this" is "ok then I'm gonna do it to annoy him"... then you're also a bad friend.

>>80811 I was trying to come up with a good example for this, too, and its a little tough. We could go with something like 'please dont cook with this food in your house if youre going to expect me to come over for dinner", but thats not really the same. Wearing the color yellow, only really matters when you're in eachothers company. This girl thing effects OPs actions when friend isn't present, with people with whom friend might never interact again. Still its similar, its a 'can you do/not do <unreasonable seeming thing> for my own comfort', so maybe close enough. You can construct this as him only owning himself, and he's choosing to hang out with people who don't have sex with this girl, for whatever reason. As for why he feels that way, IDK. seemingly he's still emotionally involved with her, even if she's not reciprocating. >>80817 > really don't see an issue with my behavior had it not upset him. I think under modern western social norms you haven't done anything basically wrong. If she was still seeing him you would be, but once she's not, she's relatively fair game, except his personal preferences in this case. t. autist tho so make of that what you will. A lot of people obviously would prefer fresh girls but whatever. >>80823 to be fair a lot of people do deliberately annoy their friends, a little bit.

>>80817 Ultimately yes, the only problem here is that you ignored your friend's wishes. But that's a pretty big no-no in my book, especially when it comes to thinks like love and sex.

>>80647 >On the other, I can't imagine being so angry that one would end a 13 year friendship over it. you fuarrrked the girl your childhood friend was heartbroken over. If you weren't able to see how that was going to end your friendship, maybe it's better you don't have any

This thread is truly a victory over space and time.

>>80817 >Does my friend's deep attachment to this girl then mean that she is thus somehow 'off limits' to me? Why does a deep attachment entail possession? It wasn't about possession. It's about respect, kindness and thoughtfulness. Your friend was upset because his love was not reciprocated which is something a lot of people experience, it's pretty common. You as his friend, essentially trampled all over his feelings. Ultimately none of us can judge whether this was right or wrong. All I can say is that I think it was rather inappropriate of you. This wound was still very fresh with your friend, and to choose your own penis over your friend's feelings essentially proves how little you respect your friend. If I were him, I would've ended our friendship as well, no hard feelings. I can understand your choice, I could even forgive it, but you just showed me who you truly are. And what you are is not something I would want to have in my life. Of course, to each their own, I wish you all the best and hope you can figure things out.

>>80647 You placed more value on the connection you felt with the girl than the feelings of your friend of 13 years. You are quite likely to read this as an indictment of your character, but it isn't. There is nothing wrong with you having different values around sex, connection and relationships to your friend. Your friend still feels betrayed though, from his point of view, he explicitly told you he would be upset if anyone had sex with her, and worse for him it was you who did it. That doesn't mean he is right to think so on a broader level - she and you are ultimately free to have sex and foster a connection if you want to, regardless of what he thinks. If you disagree that his set boundaries are more important than your connection with her and her reciprocal choice to do the same, then it's just a consequence of differing values intersecting. Sex is ultimately about communication and connection, regardless of what the numerous soykaf peddlers have to say about power, pleasure and procreation. Communication between you, your friend and this group is exceptionally poor. You have ignored your friend's explicitly stated boundaries. Your actions suggest you value your own connections, and her right to human connection above his feelings, which you didn't communicate to your friend when he told you he would be mad if she had sex. I'm not saying you should have presciently told him you've developed feelings for each other and might pursue something, just that you state it's unreasonable for him to expect her to not have sex just because he's uncomfortable with it. Finally, somebody told him you two had sex, despite almost certainly knowing it would upset him and damage your relationships. Charitably I can guess that they value truth over connection, but the outcome is that learning that damages your friendship to him, puts you in an awkward position and shows little respect to anyone's feelings. Sex is a very intimate and private thing. It's unlikely for anything good to come from learning about an ex-partner's sex life since you have not been in it. tl;dr figure out where your values lie and act accordingly. The stronger your own values, boundaries and sense of self are, the more you are likely to find people who take issue with that. Conflict is a natural part of life.

>>80649 They were already broken up. It wasnt a betrayal if she was literally single. The OP's friend just needs to grow up and get over it.

he probably expected you to be a sort of wingman in the situation, making him look good and maybe hooking up with one of the other friends. it's easy to see why he might feel a bit shucked with the outcome

>>80647 You knew that your friend love her. She didnt reciprocate, okay. But, of all the women in the world, why do you have the one that your friend have strong feelings for? What an asshole. I would never talk to you again. He made the right move there.

>>81243 This isn't how you treat your friends that you've had for over a decade. Is it not completely obvious that if he fuarrrks that girl that is friend will be deeply upset? "Look bro, according to the rules of hookup culture, you're not allowed to be upset at me here". It's so retarded. Of course he will be upset. I'm sure OP knew deep down how this was going to play out, but just chose to ignore it because the current status quo gives him a way out.

>>80650 >Are modern people really so unable to conceive of others as anything other than objects? When people treat themselves as objects (the thing people have sex with), then all you can really do is treat them as they present themselves. Otherwise you're extrapolating what may not be there. Also, why are you insinuating that you aren't a modern person? You used a goddamned modern computer to write this post. >>80660 >me no understand normal feelings You already told us you were autistic. If you aren't going to get it, then this thread is pointless. You will NEVER understand that sex is a form of advanced emotional communication that most people intend to share only with certain people and you will ONLY understand sex as a form of intense masturbation and relationships as a means to that end. >>80709 I hate these types of posts that say absolutely nothing. >it just depends bro Yeah, no fuarrrking soykaf. If a guy was fuarrrking a cat and they both liked it and everyone else around them liked it then there would be no problem. >>80713 >holding these views makes you a brittle and socially inept functional teenager So behaving like a normal emotional man makes you inept despite said behavior being better for sustaining relationships? I swear armchair stoicists haven't experienced or thought through any of their ideas. They all think ignoring soykaf is kewl so everyone else should until they realize that they're 30 and alone because you needed those emotions to connect with people beyond simple conversation. >>80723 >>80725 >I'm not sure what kind of sex you're having that STDs are such a concern Let me break it down for you. Diseases are bad. VD is yucky. You don't want to be involved with a whore that wants sex with strangers so much she is willing to POSSIBLY get diseases from it. Stop thinking with your latex covered dick.

Id bet 300 laintokens if the roles were reversed and your friend fuarrrked your ex you'd take it even less gracefully than he did. It's an asshole move and you knew better. You just didn't care because you're that desperate for a crumb of pussy. God you're pathetic.

This sort of drama goes away with age. People grow out of the bro code silliness and possessiveness of ex flings. It's understandable if he's on the younger side, but otherwise he needs to grow up.

>"I can't imagine being so angry that one would end a 13 year friendship over it." Well, this probably isn't the first time in 13 years you've been a soykafty friend to him, seeing as how your other friends "universally think you're an asshole". Having sex with the girl your friend loved when he wanted you to help him get her back after he told you that it would make him mad was probably just a last straw for him. >>82890 >everyone in the group liked OP better than him >the girl he loved also like OP better no one wants to be friends with someone who makes them feel like soykaf, thats not gonna change no matter how old you get. his friend was hurt by being rejected by the girl he had romantic feeling for and op made him feel much worse, along with crushing his dreams of getting her back.

>>82894 Not wanting to be friends with someone who makes you feel bad won't change, but the things that make you feel bad do change with age. When I was a teenager I would have felt bad to be in OP's friend's shoes. I would have felt that OP stole something I had been working toward, that the girl liking OP and not me was a judgement on my character, that OP got easily got something I worked hard to get and failed, that perhaps OP had been undermining my pursuit in secret the whole time, or that if OP wasn't in the picture maybe I could have succeeded. I would have felt that my infatuation was unavoidable; that this woman was simply the "one" and I couldn't stop myself from being smitten, and I would have thought that OP should have realized my romantic feelings toward an ex were feelings I couldn't force away and so to respect my feelings OP should have, somehow, forced away any infatuation he was feeling. I would have felt that OP chose a hoe before a bro, and maybe that even he even did it in a calculated attempt to hurt me. I'd think about all the times I enjoyed with her and all the fantasies I had about the future and I'd feel like a fool. The rejection would have been painful itself and OP fuarrrking her would have reignited that pain. I'd probably curl up in bed, listen to Mr. Brightside on repeat, and cry. But all of that is irrational and based in youthful insecurities and immaturity. As an adult, I've been in OP's friend's shoes and OP's shoes and it's never made me feel bad. What do I care if someone I used to fuarrrk fuarrrks someone I like to talk to? Even though I can remember how that would have affected teenage me, the immaturity and insecurity those feelings were rooted in haven't been a part of me for so long that I just can't imagine actually giving a soykaf about it.

>>82896 Alright, but what if his insecurities can't be fixed by getting older? Maybe he is just unattractive, maybe he's just not as intelligent. You say as an adult you've been in OP's shoes but that might never happen for him. I don't think its right to make someone feel like soykaf just because they could grow out of it, you're still causing someone pain.

Hello, a little update: things didn't work with me and the girl. I really like her but she the speed with which she was moving the relationship scared me and after much communication we agreed to go back to being friends. I think it is likely we reengage romantically at some point in the future. My friend is still ignoring me, although our mutual close friend believe this won't go on forever, and thinks it's a bit of an overreaction. I have reached out to him several times expressing a desire to talk, to reconcile, to do all sorts. At a certain point he admitted that if I had told him myself things likely would've turned out differently and he would've "given a reluctant yes if I'd asked for permission," which honestly is still a weird attitude to wrap my head around, but this thread has helped me somewhat. Regardless, he called it a "matter of principle" so he will continue to not have me in his life. While I still can't empathize with his views, I think I do understand them better than I did when this whole thing started. >>82885 I think I said elsewhere that a situation like this did happen and that I encouraged/facilitated (I introduced them to each other) that relationship. >>82862 I don't think this is why I acted like this, but it's a fair point. Likely some people do. >>82876 You urgently need skin to skin contact with another human being. >>82894 They thought I universally was an asshole in that situation, not all the time. Well maybe they do think so, but they haven't expressed that. >>82896 I agree, but I think my agreeing is evident of me thinking I'm 'more mature than my peers', which may well be true, but I've been trying to avoid that sort of feeling of superiority. And honestly, I'm quite immature. I suppose it's a matter of varying gradients in everyone, my friend is someone I'd call quite mature, except in regards to this. >>82926 He is quite an attractive man and has apparently been having plenty of sex/using dating apps as a result of this whole predicament. There's a different lesson to learn here I think which is that honestly there are certain norms/values other people hold that, while they might well be stupid or hypocritical or etc etc, are worth at least pretending to uphold, to save yourself the trouble. The various people to whom I've explained this situation recently to have been on two different extremes: either I'm an asshole or he's overreacting. I don't know, maybe the lesson is actually to surround yourself with people that share your values? Not sure.

>>83189 Stop writing a bunch of armchair philosophising about your "moral code" and "principles". Your friend confided his feelings to you, you did not seem to understand the depth of his emotions (do you perhaps have autism? its not uncommon for this site). You then went on to have a relationship with this girl that lead nowhere, and have ruined a 13-year relationship for some pussy. This is a tale as old as time.

>>83701 I just re-read the OP and saw that you did infact say you had autism. My bad, that explains this whole thread pretty much. You probably don't quite understand how your actions hurt your friend, but you are in the wrong in this situation and should not do it again.

>>82926 >I don't think its right to make someone feel like soykaf just because they could grow out of it, you're still causing someone pain. If instead of a woman, it was some other childish possessiveness, would you feel the same way? I remember when I was a teenager, I wore a certain band's t-shirt and one of my classmates was furious because she felt she was the biggest fan and that it was disgraceful for me to wear the shirt when I didn't know the answer to some trivia question she gave me about the singer's birth year or something. I kept wearing the shirt and she kept being mad about it. I can recognize why it upset her (adolescence tends to involve tying your identity to external factors and seeing those sullied by perceived posers seems personally offensive) but I also knew it's an irrational, childish response for her to have and I had no moral obligation to allow her irrational, childish behaviors to control my life. OP's friend may be hurt, but that's a hurt he needs to work on instead of childishly expecting others to cater to his insecurities.

Im not autistic but I completely agree with you. I dont understand the value system people assign to these things, and further when pressed ive never gotten a good reason as to why people react to how they do in these situations that isnt feeling like they have ownership over someone. To me thats immoral and not okay, you don't own anyone and I dont buy into this "its biological" crap cause while I used to feel that way and be extremely jealous (I would have been like your friend) I saw a problem with it and moved on. However its very normalized and I suppose me (and it sounds like you) are the odd ones for seeing it otherwise so I try to see it as an issue of agreements and trust. IE if a friend said if anyone fuarrrks this girl I broke up with im not being friends with them; I would either decide that even though I think its immature im going to not ever do that cause I value our friendship, or decide that I actually value pursuing a new relationship with someone more and tell them right there that I dont get it and I think they are being immature. In this case it sounds like there was a lack of communication, I dont really fault either of you. An off hand remark is not a clear boundary, however im sure maybe on some level you knew this would be an issue. If most of your friends are guys thats probably why they all think your an asshole, after all just look at the posts in this thread. (Many) guys have a little brocode that they assume every other guy partakes in, and they get very angry when someone shows a disrespect for it. Many girls do the same, ie "Im a girls girl". Personally I dont have any respect for it and when I see comments like the ones in here flaming you it kind of affirms it because of how it looks like someone throwing a tantrum. Im not sure what they are expecting cause the person they are raging at is usually already not playing their game so there isnt anything they can say thats going to make them feel bad about it all. Its like when someone whos on one on the street starts shouting at you and calling you a demon because of what you are wearing or something, your reality does not abide by the rules of theirs and it just comes off as a freakout.

>>83715 also though to add because this post isnt very helpful as im just poking at people, ive been in a relationship with someone for years now who very much sees things like this as a huge breach of trust. We arent open and they would be immensely hurt if I cheated on them or something. I think about such things all the time, always have, but even in situations where thats a possibility I shut it down because my girlfriend has done a lot for me and been there for me and thats always going to take priority over some new novel person my brains telling me I want to have sex with. I dont get why its such a big deal for them but I know it is and sometimes that just has to be enough. fuarrrk the people in this thread and possibly fuarrrk your friends dogpiling you but all this is to say that there will be a point, and maybe its right now, where to do the actual right thing by someone you maybe have to put aside what you see as your morally superior position and concede. Its also worth nothing there is a lot of bias in that position, having sex with who you want to feels very good to you but regardless of how nonsensical it is it hurt someone else deeply, and a lot of times even though they could work on not taking that personally that isnt going to change how it hurts them right now. Its probably also not going to help them ever see things as you do, because in spite of what the internet says the way of helping someone with their insecurity is to reassure them not epicly expose how insecure or stupid they are and rip the rug out from under them. Most people who rage at this sort of thing have very insecure attachment styles already and then get cheated on or left for someone else and it just reinforces it. You sort of have to be in the luxury position of knowing you will be okay even if people leave you and knowing that you cant control others to see things as you do, and for very valid reasons not everyone is going to be there and some never will be and will even take pride in not being that way. They are still people though at the end of the day, and instead of seeing your way as right try to just see it as right for you but not for others.

>>83710 You realize that the scale and scope there are completely different right? Obviously nobody cares about a stupid band t shirt. Kind of like how nobody cares if you steal a loaf of bread to have something to eat, but most people have a problem with stealing a 10 acre farm.

>>83718 Stealing a 10 acre farm from a big corporation sounds worthy of praise unless done by another corporation. Stealing it from some people that just happen to own it from inheriting it from their family and work it themselves most would object to.

>>83718 Doesn't seem like a fitting comparison. There's plenty of good, mature reasons to be upset if someone steals whole farm from you. There's not a good, mature reason to be upset if someone fuarrrks someone you used to fuarrrk.

>>80804 Forget about morals, that's just inconsiderate of your friend's feelings and disrespectful as fuarrrk. If someone did that to me, I'd cut him off bare minimum, if not beat his ass.

>>83718 Just like how a band shirt isn't equivalent, neither is a farm, because we aren't talking about a valuable object, we are talking about a person. The woman in this situation is not "owned" by anyone. She broke up with him a long time before and clearly had zero interest in romance with him. She chose OP over OP's friend, she wasn't "stolen" by OP. It's clear that OP's friend needs to realize that the world doesn't revolve around them and get over it.

>>84664 >It's clear that OP's friend needs to realize that the world doesn't revolve around them and get over it. Twot things can be true at the same time: OP's friend needs to get over this girl, and OP should respect his friend by not pursuing her. OP had exactly as much agency here ad the girl and he should have exercised it in a way that did not hurt his friend's feelings. If respecting your friend's feelings is contingent on how convenient it is for you to do so, you're not their friend.

>>80647 your friend had feelings for that girl and you went ahead and fuarrrked her anyway. you know why he reacted the way he did, you're just here so others can justify your actions for you. kys

>>84665 OP didnt pursue this girl. They just ended up connecting with eachother.(ironically due to OP's friend bringing him along on his futile attempts to get back with her) It's not like OP ever intended to steal his friends girl. Despite that, you are completely disregarding the girl's feelings in this scenario. Why should she and OP have to go against their feelings for each other to satisy their friend's delusions.

>>84668 >It's not like OP ever intended to steal his friends girl. OP is not a passive participant here. No matter how strong she was coming on, OP always had the ability to say no, and he should have. >Why should she and OP have to go against their feelings for each other to satisy their friend's delusions. She didn't have to do anything, but OP absolutely did. We have a very one-sided telling of this story and regardless of how deluded his friend was, OP needed to respect his friend's feelings about the matter. Go chase some other tail.

>i fuarrrk the one girl my friend wanted >i literally had other girls to fuarrrk >even if i hadn't, i could decide not to fuarrrk her >yet i fuarrrk exacly that girl my friend is into >my friend hates me now >why? I wouldn't be your friend either, OP.

OP your asking a group of people who by in large (not all) are either virgins or are deeply insecure about all of this and see themselves as the "loser" in whatever partnership they are or were in, and dont think they will or would ever get it back; because they dont know what they bring to the table and thus/also have low self esteem. For people like this posessiveness is the desperate attempt to maintain control and security. They dont know why someone loves them, they dont know why someone broke up with them. When you know what you bring to the table you have answers to these questions and so you don't endlessly run nightmare what if scenarios and work yourself up into a frenzy or take it so personally. Obviously its personal but I mean in that you dont get stuck lashing out at yourself or the other person and leave this permanent scar. Many are scarred like this even outside this board, so anything even resembling infidelity is not going to be popular. Maybe as a kid your dad cheated on your mom and thus left not just her but you as well, its impossible to fathom as a kid how someone could be so impulsive and unreliable. Maybe in highschool your best friend started dating the girl you had a crush on and suddenly you lose your whole circle. Other people are in that grey area where we dont have control of them but we can if they let us, so these things feel very unfair. Your friend wasnt going to like anyone who slept with his ex but how could it be you, his friend. Unfair, friends dont do that in his world . As other esteemed lainon moral scholars have pointed out while your friends feelings about not wanting you to sleep with his ex could be said to be rooted in an unhealthy possesiveness of his ex, the crime you stand accused of is really reneging on the contract of friendship with your friend. Actions speak louder than words, but whats the most quiet is someone whos words dont reflect their actions. There isnt anything wrong if your definition of friend requires you are allowed to be eskimo brothers without anyone getting pissy, but I think you knew very clearly that this was not the sort of friendship you established with this friend. I dont think what you did is really that wrong but your friend is right to at the core of it assume that your "friendship" doesnt mean much. What you should do in these situations is imagine what it would be like to have told your friend beforehand "Im gonna sleep with your ex". If the idea of doing that is too scary or you cant bring yourself to do it then you dont get to commit the crime, or rather all consequences fall on you. You did a bad thing. It doesnt really matter if you think you shouldnt have to do something like that cause relationships are an implicit compromise and agreement. If that werent true friendships would mean very little in the trust department. Which is likely how your friend is feeling about it. Im assuming you care because you posted, but maybe you dont, friends do mean very little to some in terms of trust and reliability and thats that. Some peoples friendship dynamics are based on an understanding of everyman for himself, and you just hang out with eachother for laughs. Thats for you to figure out at the end of the day we can intellectualize it as much as we like and I could even agree with you but it wont change that with this individual you debased the meaning of your words and debased the meaning of your friendship. I wouldnt make a habit of that personally.

>>84673 THANK YOU! Finally somebody said it. Everyone in this thread is letting their emotions take over them instead of thinking about the sitauation logically. Ultimately both OP and the girl love eachother, and to deny them that happiness for the happiness of one singular person is illogical, but everyone here is letting their insecurities cloud their judgement, making them think irrationally.

Man sounds more insecure over himself than anything else. Leave him to his own misery. There's a reason people like that end up virgins.

>>84714 Thank you! But also im not trying to discredit peoples emotions with this we are emotional beings and emotions give us purpose. Like you said love for example. Without that emotion theres also no logical reason for OP to have pursued this. I also do think OP did something wrong here (or at least something his friend should feel wronged for) but just not for the reasons many others here are shouting. I think hes mostly just guilty of being avoidant with his friend. But also I think that even if he hadnt been and talked with his friend about this the people shouting angrily would still be angry, and I dont think that specific anger or hatred should be directed at OP and is these lainons own problem.

this is almost a plot to Kokoro You are lucky this has not ended up tragic

>>80647 >nreciprocated romantic feelings, and was then broken up with. They broke up in mid December. Around April he got the impression he might have a chance of getting back together with her and started bringing me with him to go see her and her friends. I got along with that group of friends far better than he and he decided to stop seeing them as much, said to me he didn't want to try and get back with this girl anymore, but made an offhand comment basically along the lines that he would be mad if a Tell your friend the truth. You risked your 13 year relationship to see if she would sleep around. She failed, and is a whore that would have cheated on him. If he wants to no longer be friends, that's OK, but you're glad at least you saved him from getting ruined by a whore. t. fellow autist (ignore the other soykaf NPC responses)

>>84745 So you're telling him to lie. He clearly wasn't testing her. Also her being easy doesn't necessarily mean she would have cheated, just more likely to.

>>84745 not in words or situation obviously but in mindset this is literally something a child would come up with as an excuse. Are NPCs to you just people with an adult developed brain?

>>84714 > in this thread is letting their emotions take over them instead of thinking about the sitauation logically What is meant by "logically" here? Is it an implicit assignment of moral value to a sort of legalistic superego (I and this girl are both single, therefore my friend should not get mad at me about it) rather than to the bonds and relationships that make up your life (I value my friendship, therefore I should avoid doing something that would hurt his feelings)? Because that's the only thing I can think of. Framing things this way, as in whether you did something "morally illegal" according to a particular third-party value system, and putting aside whether your conduct could be expected to have a positive impact on your actual relationships and your community. OP is also showing classic signs of knowing you did something wrong, but framing it in a positive light with the hope of getting affirmation from the peanut gallery. We are missing a lot of key details of this story (how did OP's ex friend learn about this? At what point did OP start to have feelings for this girl? Did OP genuinely love her more than his friend? If he didn't think there was anything wrong about it then why didn't he tell his friend *before* haivng sex with her?), and without knowing everyone involved the only thing we can do is make a guess. My gut is telling me that OP is firmly in the wrong, knows he's in the wrong, and is using autism as an excuse for being a dick.

>>84751 children idolize acting mature imitating adults they see real maturity is making your own decision And the npc tag is just the same criticism - you stopped deciding. You cease being a player when you reduce decision making to a follow others doctrine. "what is everyone else doing" is furthermore steered by media perception instead of reality. Dumbfucks imitate hollywood movies not real people and then get imitated by fellow dumbfucks in their circle at which point they think look everyone else is doing it this must be good. This circles back to thread topic with monkey see monkey do soykaf affected by shows like sex&city and the best part is the actor old bitches now blogpost how that lifestyle ruined them but nobody reads that soykaf. Everyone involved chasing a fake dream due their "just imitate others" behavior.

>>84751 I can confirm. I had an autistic female tell me autistic males often try to avoid responsibility by pulling the autism card despite evidence showing they made such actions knowing they were in wrong. >>84756 You are just following a different doctrine you picked up online while telling yourself you are different. Autists have been shown to have less brain activity when self reflecting so it's clear why you would be unable to identify this in yourself. https://academic.oup.com/brain/article-abstract/133/2/611/287808?redirectedFrom=fulltext

>>84756 none of what you are saying here matters because other people exist and we are talking about saying something to someone else and if you tried to say what you just said they would believe you believe you but they wouldnt believe you and see it as retarded and childish. As someone else said what you are saying comes across as even more of an imitation of soykaf you read online than you perceive others genuine self reflection to be, which I dont think you have. Like a child doesnt yet. What you said was a narrative to justify why OP did this but it has 0 to do with anything he said or why he says he actually did it and this somehow mas more weight to you purely because if you were in this situation it would excuse your actions. Thats probably all you know how to do which is why you have to dismiss everyone else as an npc because it frees you from judgement and keeps you stuck in this pretend land where you have some insight over others despite not listening to anyone even the very person your responding to. Like a child just rambling about their favorite toy when you try to ask them a question.

>>84758 i wasnt even the original poster. And you merely coping looking for excuses with "science says u dumb" while not addressing what was said...

OP here with the monthly check-in on my thread >>83701 >>83702 I don't see how any of what I said was armchair philosophising, this is just how I speak. >You then went on to have a relationship with this girl that lead nowhere, and have ruined a 13-year relationship for some pussy. Like many others in this thread, you also need skin-to-skin contact with another human being. >My bad, that explains this whole thread pretty much. You probably don't quite understand how your actions hurt your friend, but you are in the wrong in this situation and should not do it again. Can you imagine how much nicer life would be for yourself if you approached everyone with the attitude you express in your second comment rather than the first? >>83715 >>83717 > where to do the actual right thing by someone you maybe have to put aside what you see as your morally superior position and concede. > They are still people though at the end of the day, and instead of seeing your way as right try to just see it as right for you but not for others. More than anything else, this thread has made me truly realize these two things where before I simply thought them. Thanks. >>84598 lol >>84666 try reading at least part of the thread (or just finishing the OP) before you comment >>84669 it's funny because you imply earlier the possibility of being a non-passive but also not the most active participant (involved but not chasing) and then go right back to >chase some other tail You are right though, there would've been a better outcome if I'd respected his feelings from the getgo, but that relies on me having understood them in the first place, which I didn't. >>84672 poor reading comprehension >>84673 You're totally right. My running theory is that I must've subconsciously wanted to sabotage this friendship. While it's true I didn't understand his feelings I think it's probably also true that I could've predicted a poor outcome in this situation. >I wouldnt make a habit of that personally. This is good advice, thank you. >>84714 I'm sorry to disappoint, but we ended (the romantic and sexual part of) our relationship. >>84743 There's always time! >>84745 You also need skin-to-skin contact with another human being. >>84753 > Framing things this way, as in whether you did something "morally illegal" according to a particular third-party value system, and putting aside whether your conduct could be expected to have a positive impact on your actual relationships and your community. This is a fair point > how did OP's ex friend learn about this? At what point did OP start to have feelings for this girl? Did OP genuinely love her more than his friend? If he didn't think there was anything wrong about it then why didn't he tell his friend *before* having sex with her? I'm almost certain I've given these details somewhere in the thread but if I haven't I might as well now. The day after I first hooked up with the girl, a mutual friend (2) found out by calling me and hearing her in the background. The following morning I was to be leaving the country for a week and so I thought I'd tell my friend (1) upon returning. While I was away, 2 got drunk and told 3 and 4 and 5, 5 told 1. I found out a few days later (but not back in the country yet) and tried calling/texting to no response. Attempted to make amends etc. etc. >>84756 This isn't a terrible point, but its not expressed very well, and you display much of the same attitude (with your misogyny) as the people you criticise.

>>84765 I know you weren't the original poster and no it isn't cope to call someone out on their narcissistic delusions of grandeur.

>>84988 It seems like you have reflected and understand that you can simultaneously be not wrong about how you view relationships but also still have wronged your friend. And that while your friend might see this as the biggest betrayal of his life this is not the some rare terrible crime that means you are xyz type of person like some in this thread have tried to throw at you. Whats the plan moving forward? Avoid sticky situations like this entirely or seek friends who see more eye to eye with you? You mentioned subconsciously wanting to sabotage the friendship maybe. I used to have this mean habit of being a little ruthless when someone would express upset at something I thought was childish or that I would not be hurt by. Sometimes not by intention but by carelessness because of that lack of empathy I think I would also make their nightmares become reality. There was this sort of idea of I learned to get over it they should too, for me it was often regarding other peoples fears of abandonment. I think saying you subconsciously wanted to sabotage the friendship is a bit harsh but I could see how your lack of taking what your friend said seriously (or maybe even seeing weakness in it) due to how you view things just made this all an easy choice. You could have and maybe should have predicted a poor outcome but when you view said poor outcome like a person having a tantrum it doesn't have much weight and I think flies out the brain easy. But that's the best thing we can take away from moments like this, seeing just how much our actions we hardly give a second thought to can really hurt others. Deciding whether we value old friends or new opportunities more, and of what kind. I saw some study that people universally (almost) without exception become quieter and less impulsive as they get older, sometimes still impulsive and loud but less so than they used to be. I think it's likely the combined effect of all these sorts of moments like you had, suddenly you can't help but think everything twice over.

relationships between guys are way more genuine

>>84996 Not from what I've experienced.

>>84997 how much experience do you have though?

>>84999 How would you even measure that? Hard to come up with a specific number spanning my entire life. Also depends what you have in mind with genuine if you accept very low level relationships where you aren't even very close to someone just kind of barely know eachother or act like a real friend then how would it being genuine even matter? I'm just saying I've had too many cases of guys not really seeming to care about me and around 4 outright backstab me.

>>85002 genuine long lasting relationships between guys are made out of mutual pain , despair and understanding >>85002

>>85003 Sounds like a little trauma box. How many friendships with girls have you had?

This thread is some grade A* bait. The formality of OP’s writing, his obliviousness to social cues, his misunderstanding of what lainons are saying, it’s just beautiful. I don’t think I’ve ever seen bait this good.

>>85009 0 , i am too self aware for that

>>85019 >>85019 yeah that fits

>>85018 >Someone on Lain is asperger/skizoid/associal No way. It's clearly a bait. I, for one, believe OP was sincere.