Suicidal Ideation

I find myself engaging in this quite a bit, and it provides me with a strange satisfaction. What does it really mean, though, Lain? We know that tendency to fantasize is not the same thing as real desire for the object of the fantasy. I think I would have attempted by now if it were as simple as "suicidal ideation = suicidal." Let's talk about the roots of this phenomenon.

Its "the grass is always greener". People make the abstract conotation of suicide as going somewhere else, dissapearing, etc. When these really are all just word concepts and probably none can describe death. Our instinctive unconscious brains know this, so try as we might to construct a false reality our bodies fundamental reality that says death is bad usually takes over. Thats my idea. I think people who do end up comitting suicide are just very detatched from intuition and their instinctive selves. Or often times make it a very quick decision that can't be reversed. It's easier to "shoot" or "jump" then it is to die.

>>7214 I want you to know that this is a high-quality response and I appreciate it. My thoughts have gone in similar directions.

>>7214 I think similarly. When I was young, I occasionally had very difficult migraines. It was so painful I could only lay in my bed with a pillow against my face, and I remember how I always started imagining myself being tortured and killed in different ways. It numbed my pain and brought comfort in that context, it was about becoming something else, going somewhere else. Creating distance to the suffering I felt in that situation.

I used to have pretty vivid suicide fantasy growing up, just because it fascinated me. I never really understood why someone would off themselves when I was an adolescent so it was kind of a game to just let my mind wander and think about what I'd do if I were to go through with that. Now, it has just manifested has a legitimate death wish, but that's due to depression and other circumstances. If I were to speculate I'd say most people have probably have had light suicidal ideation just out of curiousity but never vocalize it due to the taboo nature of suicide.

>>7214 I don't think it's so simple as that. Our instinctual, particularly emotional selves are what lead us to suicide in the first place. We're a social animal, especially when it comes to emotion, and almost all suicides happen as a result of people feeling they have no one to turn to. In many ways it's a last, final, cry for help from someone who knows that help isn't coming. On that note, my mam is dying and I've no one else in the world. I'm not entirely sure what happens next but there's a good chance it involves a length of rope.

>>7214 >the grass is always greener never heard that description of sucide, chuckled

>>7343 I disagree. You call it a cry for help, showing already at least s subconscious detatchment. You say "but help isnt coming" however that doesnt change the words you chose. If a man busted in your house with a gun, you would run and thats instinct. However by creating this subconscious alternate reality you can detatch suicide from what it really is which is death. Suicide and death are no longer the same thing, because while death is fear suicide is just change. I think maybe you think by instinct I mean subconscious. I dont know the actual definitions of these terms I just use them for what makes sense in my brain, but I think im correct. If I soykaf my pants with fear every time im in a social setting thats instinct. If as a result I start spending more time alone without thinking about it thats my brain subconsciously avoiding soykafting my pants with fear. I dont think you could convince me that your instinctual reaction to imminent death isnt dread and fear. So as follows in order to kill yourself it has to not involve that death. It can be death abstractified but not actual death. It has to be "a cry for help" or "a better place" or "no longer having to suffer".

>>7347 >If a man busted in your house with a gun, you would run and thats instinct You don't have to run just because you're in mortal danger. I've stared down a guy threatening me with a knife before. It was a tense situation but in that moment I was calmer than I've ever been. >I dont think you could convince me that your instinctual reaction to imminent death isnt dread and fear Then there's little point trying but it's been a long time since death held any fear for me. I'll be too dead to care about such things, so why worry? >no longer having to suffer What do you imagine death is aside from this? This is the fundamental principle of death. That it's the end. Not some abstract notion tangentially related to it. You've taken this notion that instinct commands these things but instinct never commands, only suggests. More than that it isn't absolute. Most mothers instinctually love their children, some few do not and even among those who do other factors can prove more important to them.

Suicidal ideation can actually be a helpful mechanism during hard times. Thinking "if it gets too much worse I can always end it" means there's a chance of relief if you need it that bad. That acknowledgment alone can give you the strength to pick up and carry on. Obviously this doesn't work for everyone. Some people gain strength from telling themselves they will never give up.

>>7348 >What do you imagine death is aside from this? This is the fundamental principle of death. That it's the end. Not some abstract notion tangentially related to it. I dont imagine because you cant imagine what death is, it is very much abstract. I do imagine for fun maybe. That is not the fundamental principle of death by any stretch of the word, if that were true we wouldnt have some cultures saying its the end, some saying its the beginning, some saying there is no beginning or end. There is no possible way you could know what death is like, the only fundamental thing about it is that we want to avoid it for some reason. You cant even know its "the end". Do you remember your life "beginning"? No you just always were here, for all you know there is no end and when you die that 5 minutes or whatever your brain is alive after feels like an eternity and you get to live in an eternal hell of your current state of suffering.

>>7417 >it is very much abstract No. It's very concrete, physical and real. You stop breathing. >if that were true we wouldnt have some cultures saying its the end, some saying its the beginning, some saying there is no beginning or end. We don't. Every culture views it as the end of life because that's what it is in the most literal of senses. It doesn't matter where you go afterwards. It's this life that it's the end of and that's a belief that's universal because it's plainly and obviously true. >the only fundamental thing about it is that we want to avoid it for some reason Which is why nobody ever kills themselves. Oh wait. This is not universal or fundamental at all. Plenty of people have idolised death for plenty of reasons. And this really stands to reason. If I said to someone "what's another way to phrase the word death?" I might very well get "the end of life" I would not get "something to be avoided." >No you just always were here Wtf no? Believe it or not I was actually born rather than having lived forever and I spent countless millions of years dead before that. >you get to live in an eternal hell of your current state of suffering. If you think that would change anything you fail to grasp the reasons why people do these things.

>>7423 Your very close minded thats all I have to say, and your idea that its the belief of every culture is 100% false.

>>7425 If you want an example of how unable to think outside of boxes you are no soykaf you were born, but you dont have a memory of ever not being here. Just because you are so absorbed in what you know is reality doesn't mean your brain internally works that way. To your brain you functionally were never not here, there is no time in your head you werent here. Im saying as an example, not as in it actually happens, your brain/consciousness may also never not be here.

>>7426 >that its the belief of every culture is 100% false. What? Every culture knows how death works. You stop breathing. Sure, it's been dressed up in a thousand ways but the basic physical reality isn't hard to understand. >but you dont have a memory of ever not being here. Which is meaningful in its own right. I do know what being dead is like. >Just because you are so absorbed in what you know is reality doesn't mean your brain internally works that way. That's exactly what that means. My reality doesn't exist outside my head. There is no "what I know" versus "how my brain works." I am my brain. >To your brain you functionally were never not here There is no "to my brain" distinct from "to me". The idea that I'm aware of the higher concepts such as times I can't remember or the nature of death but my brain isn't is a contradiction in terms. Even saying just the subconscious is wrong. There is nothing that I consciously know that my subconscious doesn't. You're making the mistake that Freud did. "Well I'm sure that subconsciously all these things are going on. Anything that's contrary to that is just them fooling themselves by "being so absorbed in what they know is reality" but I can tell what's really going on beneath." You've no evidence at all. Quite the opposite people are telling you that they don't work that way and you're insisting you know better.

>>7428 yeah your right im wrong sorry.

This may sound irrational but whatever. My main fear of committing suicide is that it's not actually doable and regardless of what I attempt I'll just survive. I can't imagine anything worse than not having an exit.

>>7458 Its not irrational at all, lots of people fuarrrked it up and live like cripples, especially the ones who go out using railroads.

You need to go outside more anon, drink some of the material nectar.

>>7460 I'm not sure I understand. Could you elaborate, please?

I'll never understand just ending it, but then again I have a different perspective on it. When I get that way, I think "your life is expendable", which makes me take risks where death is possible. But I am still doing things I believe in. Basically suicidal ideation for me is whether or not you are willing to burn your life for something you believe in, and how likely you are to jump on those opportunities, even trigger them. I think this is a rare version of suicide, and the kind a lot of dangerous people have had historically. Instead of just eating a bullet somewhere, you no longer think things like overexertion, or violent resistance, or taking on a superior force is suicide. Your ideals remain, it's just that your concern about making it out alive is no longer relevant.

I think its quite something. No other animal kills themselves like humans. We humans are the only animals that kill ourselves not under the influence of an external force, or protecting our own. Sometimes animals have been seen comitting suicide by refusing to eat after death of a mate or an owner in the case of a pet, though in a way I see this as them seeing this as a kind of death. Their owner or mate was their entire life so... many times humans do the same but not always. Even the behaviour above is in higher intelligence mammals, dolphins and dogs and such. But you know many people who commit suicide arent under extreme diress or a recent loss, they simply say "life is more bad then good" and choose to die. Thats kind of crazy, only us. Its made me think of a few things, nothing concrete. One is that if survival is the goal perhaps intelligence is actually a bad adaption. Combined with us simply choosing not to have kids and developed countries birth rate going down, maybe in the grand scheme it was this weird scenario where we developed something that spread quickly but wasnt good. But perhaps survival isnt really the goal and it just has been. Maybe the development of consciousness is where evolution guides, and that consciousness doesnt dissapear on death. Maybe not even like WE go somewhere, it could be any number of things. Maybe conscious has some universal utilization we cant imagine or transforms upon death. Or, I wonder too what if us developing the idea we could kill ourselves is a fluke/from somewhere else. I dont think many animals think they can kill themselves, even when they do they usually stop eating which doesnt imply they know they are killing themselves just that they lack any care for self. Maybe some early early tribe ate some magic mushrooms and "saw" the afterlife and introduced this foreign concept to the world. I think regardless its something seen more often in those intelligent. Both species and individually among humans. Is intelligence no good, or is it seeing something without even knowing it. I dont know. I wont ever kill myself, but I wonder if we will ever find the answers. Is something strange and from our perspective magical going on, or are we simply too caught up in ourselves.

>>7466 >if survival is the goal perhaps intelligence is actually a bad adaption Peter Watts' book Blindsignt went into that theory in depth, if intelligence leads to this kind of behavior the non-intelligent species that act more as cellular automata are more successful and end up being the dominant lifeforms of the universe. In a sense intelligence could be seen as a dead-end of evolution that refuses to die because of the intelligent branch's self-awareness and motivation to survive despite its decreased fitness there are some species of rodent that literally breed until they drop, to the exclusion of sustaining themselves, but this isn't really a form of suicide in my opinion because as you said they aren't really actively committing suicide, they're just passively allowing themselves to die. plus they already passed their genes on which is really the only kind of 'survival' that natural selection cares about

>>7471 Is it bad that all I could think of while reading that was the biology teacher at the beginning of (the movie version of) Starship Troopers?

i dont know if the thread is still up, bot a while ago someone posted about the asher movement https://ashspace.org/contribs/carthago_deleta/living_as_a_suicidal.php i still cant tell if it is in fact a cult characteristic, or an anarchist ideology >The freedom to die can be analyzed at a conceptual level. We are sad we live in a time and in a society which does not recognize the right to commit suicide and thus forces us to live. As ashers, we are in search of a voluntary life, and reject a life lived under the coercion of staying alive. People who emphasize suicide prevention urge us to choose to live, as one author[1] proclaims, but the tactics they employ consist rather in fooling us[2] and coercing us to live. Choosing an option is impossible unless one may choose the alternative option, so choosing life is impossible without being able to choose death. The tactics of the agents of suicide-prevention resemble those of political parties in a totalitarian system, where there is only one legal Party (e.g. the Communist Party, in Communist dictatorships) and all citizens must vote that party and that party only. Since all other parties (if they exist at all) are illegal, elections in such countries are rightly considered fraudulent. The same can be said about choosing to live: we don't really have the option to live as long the society's authorities (such as the religious and psychiatric systems) prevent us by all means from choosing, or even contemplating, the alternative option (suicide). Ashers who are alive genuinely choose to live, as they consider suicide to be an option for themselves: indeed, they live as suicidal. To live as a suicidal, as an asher wants to live, is to own one's life in a radical sense. From our point of view, non-ashers, who live without the awareness of death and without the possibility of suicide, are lived rather than live[3]. >>7465 >Your ideals remain, it's just that your concern about making it out alive is no longer relevant. this is actually talked about in sun tzu's the art of war, basically that convincing people that they will die will make them more passionate about living because they are no longer burdened by the fear of death, more or less a "go out in a blaze of glory" attitude >>7466 >But you know many people who commit suicide arent under extreme diress or a recent loss, they simply say "life is more bad then good" and choose to die. Thats kind of crazy, only us. Its made me think of a few things, nothing concrete. the idea of living + and - for greater than or less than a baseline is a common one, though advocates of suicide prevention emphasize that there is nothing worse than death in my experience (at least according to the regular classes i need to take for work in addition to the "stress management" and stupid helping your co-workers though a tough situation role plays that are all scripted) >>7471 i would argue that the rise in suicides is a factor of a perversion of the survival value theory >exogamy forces groups to go outside themselves, initiate friendships, and establish affinal ties and alliances. these ties ensure cooperation, mutual dependency, and social solidarity within and between social units. the society should prosper and expand (i.e. be successful) under the conditions of internal peace and external harmony between exogamous units in other words, the social ties that are inherent to a healthy mind that functions on the basis of needing to work with others for survival are perverted by pseudo interaction over social media, and paired with the actual non-necessity to rely on others for survival thanks to modern technologies. an interesting statement that I found was "Evolutionary psychologists also frequently emphasize that the specific mechanism that they study evolved in the different past and cannot be expected to produce results in modern environments" one could argue that suicide is an adaptation to modern technology, and that bu rejecting everything that constitutes living in a modern world, one has essentially committed (on a basic level social suicide by being external to social norms - literally "normal people get out" memes). the resultant perspectives of non value or negative value induced by such behavior would logically produce suicidal ideation

>>7214 that's probably true. being detached from instinct isn't a bad thing though, it's in my personal opinion that conscious thought can always outdo instinct. of course, suicide is detrimental to the organism. >>7458 i have a suspicion that most people who survive suicide attempts are just doing it as a cry for help or attention. i don't see how it can be so hard to fuarrrk up, especially with the plethora of information available on the internet. for example, drug overdose is very common, and yet it only has a 5% success rate. in order to call it real suicide you can't include sally sue who took 10 tylenol and whined to her mom >>7366 this is correct, many restless nights have been alleviated this way