Do we deserve to live?

Does any of the good that humanity does do enough to redeem us or justify us? Or are we just evil incarnate with no hope of improvement or redemption? Do we just sink lower and lower, or do we crawl up inch by inch? In my opinion, with the innocent yet wholly unrestrained cruelty of children, our endless excuses and justifications for the things we do, our inability to take responsibility or blame or criticism, we kind of don't deserve to live but are in an endless state of trying to change that (to little success). The small kindnesses we do always seriously pale in comparison to the horrible things we do, and these horrible things constantly ramp up in intensity with no lesson learned. It bothers me that, if some future civilization or whatever happens upon our remains, that we'll only be remembered by our sins of the past, rather than the futile struggles of us trying to change our nature. Maybe it's just my human perspective, but I feel like our justifications for existing will just fall flat in the face of what we do to each other, and we'll only be seen for what we've done, instead of what we try to do better. Who knows, maybe we'll be seen in a more positive light by an even more ruthless existence, but the core concept still stands. I'd like to hear some other perspectives on this, does our good outweigh our bad? Will we be remembered positively? Do you think that it's possible to do better? Would it be possible for another species to come along and do what we were incapable of? Not trying to create some omnipotent fantasy alien race, but if maybe a second wave of humans came along or another intelligent race from another planet?

No, most of Humanity deserves extinction

>>68785 Good and bad are human abstractions. When a spider eat it's kids, it's not good or bad. When a cat torture a mouse for hours, it's not good or bad. Who are you to say humans don't deserve to live? Justification? To whom? For what? >Not trying to create some omnipotent fantasy alien race, but if maybe a second wave of humans came along or another intelligent race from another planet?

Collectively or individually? Individually I think most humans are ethically neutral, leaning towards good. In the sense that, most people won't go out of their way to be a dick. I think the collective unconscious has been basically lobotomized by years of people trying to control it, so it has no ethical standing at all.

The problem with many people today is that they are unable to realize their own guilt.

Going the religious route, I think it's valid to say that it's not up to us to decide.

>>68806 God hates us, he's letting us destroy ourselves

>>68785 Really depends on your moral framework. What is that good we should strive towards? What are those sins that burden us so? Personally, as nihilist, I find notion of moral desert meaningless. You do what you can get away with. Strong do what they can, weak endure what they must. If strong wouldn't exercise their strength, they would loose it. Etc etc. >Do we just sink lower and lower, or do we crawl up inch by inch? How would you measure this? I think over time people spend more resources to help those in need, but that is largely because we are richer society and thus can afford such things. >It bothers me that, if some future civilization or whatever happens upon our remains, that we'll only be remembered by our sins of the past, rather than the futile struggles of us trying to change our nature. If some future civilization happens upon our remains, I would assume they will understand, because they will be the same. It's nature of life to try to expand wherever it can, even if it should hurt other lives. >>68807 >God hates us, he's letting us destroy ourselves [Christian] God gave us free will. Not stopping us from self destruction is part of it and we must deal with it on their own. Also, even if nuclear holocaust happened, there is eternal life, so it may be no big deal for him.

>>68785 Yes because "deserve" is nothing more than holier-than-thou bullshit. Life belongs to those who can hold it.

>>68785 >Not trying to create some omnipotent fantasy alien race, but if maybe a second wave of humans came along or another intelligent race from another planet? Nah lets do it. Start by going full throttle to uncontrolled AGI, if that doesn't replace us then start up the breeding program and gene mods. It's not that we don't deserve to live, we're just not good enough at being a society to not fail when soykaf gets complicated. We weren't built for this, let someone else try.

>>68830 > if that doesn't replace us then start up the breeding program breeding programme is in part how we got here, how some of the greater parts of civilization came about. Breeding is part of husbandry, afterall...

Yes. Consider the condition of our planet's capacity to sustain life itself. Its increasingly unstable and yet humanity continues fuarrrking it up burning fossil fuels and yet they continue sticking their fingers up their own asses being committed to the rat-race. What for? So much bullshit people have been fooled into prioritizing besides clean water, green grass, and our very own health. Such is our human condition. Though it be far too easy to criticize instead of ponder what redeems us. So easy to blame and yet too difficult remedy. We must make an example by living with dignity. What is good? Beauty, strength, ability. What is bad? Idiocy, destruction, ineptitude.

>>68836 >fuarrrking it up burning fossil fuels Part of it, but not what's happening. You've bought into their lies. It's actually far worse than most can imagine.

>>68837 please elaborate further

>>68844 Climate change is real, but many of its alleged causes are either misframed or false. It should be first considered through the perspective of biosphere changes and collapse. A few thoughts to consider: -Why there are so many weather anomalies -Why the biosphere can't uptake carbon. Carbon sinks are becoming sources. -Whether oceans are dying and or acidifying (eg a "Canfield ocean" scenario) -Why tons of aluminum is found in whales https://hakaimagazine.com/news/whales-rocked-by-heavy-metals/ -Whether and why microplastics are forming a thin sheet over the oceans and preventing gas exchange, is it all just dumping and combustion products? Or something else. Whales have been found full of plastics https://www.vox.com/2019/5/24/18635543/plastic-pollution-bags-whale-stomach-beached -Why insect populations https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/as-insect-populations-decline-scientists-are-trying-to-understand-why/ and insectivores https://vtecostudies.org/blog/new-vce-study-reveals-decline-in-vermont-forest-birds/ have been annihilated and insectivore species are now dying in turn. https://wildlife.org/bird-declines-tied-to-fewer-insects/ Insects, birds, amphibians, and others are far less common where I am, basically disappeared in many cases. There are tons of mosquitos (for now) because nothing is eating them and their larvae. -Proposals like iron seeding the oceans to try to regenerate the already destroyed phytoplankton populations, and therefore have them uptake more carbon. As though this wouldn't lead to anoxic algaebloom-like conditions. https://news.mit.edu/2020/oceans-iron-not-impact-climate-change-0217 https://www.greenbiz.com/article/debate-over-geoengineering-intensifying https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_fertilization?useskin=vector -Why methane is releasing from Siberia and the seafloor -Why microplastics and aluminum are being found in fresh snow and rain, even on mountains -Why bees with colony collapse are being found full of micron and nanoscale aluminum https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2015/the-dwindling-population-of-bees-and-aluminum-levels/ -Why soil microbiomes are compromised in many regions (trees can't survive or uptake nutrients without it) -Testing the pH of your own rain or snow. I've consistently gotten ~4.5 when I melt snow and test it. As water nucleates and begins to freeze, it pushes all of the impurities out to its edges. Same with rain. Even assuming that its outer surface area adsorbs a bunch of stuff as it falls, it should still be closer to 5.5 to 6. -New papers showing volcanic eruptions temporarily cool the surface, but net out to much greater heating overall. Previously: https://carnegiescience.edu/news/geoengineering-versus-volcano "particles in the upper atmosphere provide long term cooling." Now: https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2022/flood-basalts-may-warm-climate "volcanic eruptions provide temporary cooling, with much greater net warming and ozone depletion". In their simulation this partly due to sulfur dioxide. https://penntoday.upenn.edu/news/geoengineering-some-fundamental-chemistry-penn-sas-joseph-francisco https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2016/12/mitigating-the-risk-of-geoengineering/ -Whether ozone quality and UV index really is what they say. -Why major disasters and weather seem to always be in regions important for food production or trade -Why countries which refuse central bank control are hit with sanctions, prolonged drought, and other extreme weather -Why the use of ground based RF installations to degrade atmospheric methane has been proposed. Namely project LUCY (yes, Lucy in the sky with [nano] diamonds) https://ams.confex.com/ams/96Annual/webprogram/Paper275345.html https://weathermodificationhistory.com/ameg-demands-global-geoengineering-project-lucy-angels-proposal/ https://weathermodificationhistory.com/wmh/pdf/Project-Lucy-Radio-Transmitter-to-decompose-methane-AMEG.pdf -Why stratospheric aerosol injection and solar radiation management (geoengineering) keep coming into news and popular media as being just "proposals" for "if we get desperate enough". As if they would tell anyone or ask, and as though they haven't already been doing it. -Why strontium is found in rainwater, interestingly it's also used in CRT displays to filter out some of the xrays. Though it has a lot of properties. -Role of ionospheric heater installations (of which there are many) like HAARP. -Ability to create high pressure domes and control the movement of moisture in the atmosphere. Meaning manipulation of precipitation, snow, and the broader hydrological cycle. 2009: http://web.archive.org/web/20210717155717/https://www.news.com.au/technology/chinese-scientists-create-second-artificial-snowstorm-in-beijing/news-story/9287187638172f4b566215bfdc661340 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/6481650/Chinese-government-makes-it-snow-in-Beijing-in-order-to-fight-drought.html Perhaps you could use snow making machines, provided adequate moisture is available. 2022: https://www.livescience.com/artificial-snow-satellite-image-winter-olympics https://www.vox.com/2022/2/10/22926270/artificial-snow-beijing-2022-olympics-climate-change Or you could move moisture where you need it, then provide a nucleation surface (aluminum oxide sheets or some other material, like graphene[www.nature.com] embedded in microplastics) and then freeze it by endothermic reaction, for example via barium hydroxide octahydrate and ammonium nitrate. This would keep the surface cool enough that your other artificial snow wouldn't melt as quickly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qA_OdwIt_tw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQkJI-Nq3Os https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SenJud3cHLc Hydrological cycle: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120606092715.htm -Why snow so often falls, sticks around for a few days, maybe a week, then mostly melts off. As it goes from 50F one day to -5F the next. -Alumina is a dessicant, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activated_alumina?useskin=vector for example. With net warming of the planet the air should hold more overall moisture (~7% more per every 1C of warming), and you'd expect more humidity and rain overall.

>>68847 climate change is caused by the sun getting brighter and hotter. it used to be yellow, now its white and much brighter. you can feel the heat difference between direct sunlight and shade strongly now.

>>68836 Read Greta's Climate Book. There's like 2 chapters about science and the rest is politics. They're not even pretending anymore. Global Cooling^W Warming^W^W Climate Change is and always has been about restructuring global political power.

>>68850 "Global cooling" was an intentional smokescreen the PR firms hired by the oil lobby threw into the mainstream to confuse people in the long term. It's obviously worked. As for celebrity activists like her (and Al Gore, David Suzuki, even Neill Young now), no one should take them seriously and you shouldn't have to be told this by now.

>>68857 >"Global cooling" was an intentional smokescreen the PR firms hired by the oil lobby threw into the mainstream to confuse people in the long term. What's your basis for thinking this? The advocates for global cooling moved straight onto global warming without skipping a beat. They are not different people, it's all the same agenda. They just changed the name every time the predictions become too painfully out of sync with reality. They hit a winner with climate change though because everything is climate change. Too hot? Climate change. Too cold? Climate change. Too wet? Climate change. Too dry? Climate change. Somehow people still think this soykaf is science. >no one should take them seriously I guess you think climate change is real but has been hijacked by bad actors for political reasons?

>>68785 I think there are cyclical ages. There is a "golden age" of sorts and then things start getting worse and worse until there is eventually another golden age (like the 4 yugas or the 4 ages of ancient Greeks, I think Buddhists have something similar too?).

>>68849 The only way to make the sun go back to normal, is ensuring everyone is fully vaccinated.

>>68860 >The advocates for global cooling moved straight onto global warming without skipping a beat. Which people in particular? Fun fact: heat records currently break twice as often as cold records, in the US. >>68849 If the sun had gotten hot enough that it visibly changed color it would have already boiled away the oceans.

"Humanity" is utterly corrupt and iredeemable guilty, what is worse is that so called humanity as almost a whole are pathological two faced liars who can say one thing and do the opposite with a broad audience and they dont see it as such either. Every slight comfort or pleasure is built upon monumental destruction, exploitation and currelty towards not just the earth and its creatures but other people too. All of the worlds nations, cultures, acomplishments and values are nothing but filthy stinking lies of the filthiest kind pretending to be virtue, but only there to support a machination of explotiation and more lies. People celebrate these lies, when confronted they will either evade and disregard the situation or retaliate with more lies and hypocracy. One might go by the argument that good and bad does not exist, but the so called ethics and values in modern society of any kind are self contradicting and broken by almost any person and just swept under the rug. I think the whole covid and vax situation is and was proof that whatever social mechanations are in place are completely crazy and even after all this madness happened people can turn around and pretend it never happend and all is well. When i go outside i see trash and basically treating everything that doesnt have a price tag as trash and people are completely fine with that. They hang out banners, form raellys and spout out empty solgans who say bullshit like what world are we going to leave our children, but at the end of those people buy the cheap crap non the same and just throw it on the same heap. I see people in the lots who shat out children giving them crap to eat and the leftovers are seen everwhere but they dont care to pick up any of all the excessive trash everywhere. People keep complainging this and that but just keep going back sucking corp tits and do nothing to change the situation. This soykaf keeps me awake at night and day, im not kidding. I want to expose all the crap i have seen in my live so far, its just beyond explanation and belief, i dont know how to pack all that in, i have an idea but its just too huge. I see the lies in everything, its like in that movie "they live", but like a million times worse. After seeing trough all this it made me even more guilty of being alive my only hope is i can somehow get this across and maybe the truth will be known one day by something, but i dont think man will ever care for the truth. This world is pure hell, built by the hand of man, no devil can be blamed for the actions of man

>>68869 >This soykaf keeps me awake at night and day, im not kidding. >I want to expose all the crap i have seen in my live so far, Take all that you just said and ask yourself. Expose it to who? Expose it how? It's already there in plain sight.

>>68870 Exactly, its maddening, thats the whole point. How can you show what is in plain sight, its an impossible task. Still i have to try, even though i will be the first to admit that i am part of the problem to some degree, i think this is the only real move that has any chance of being effective. I mean if a point can be proven that all of humankinds existence is one huge farce and nobody and nothing can be trusted this might atleast make a dent in it, i just dont want all these lies people write into history books be all there is. Its obviously pointless, but so is just living on at this point and even tho i was coerced into a lot of soykaf i should have refused the least i can do is not let the lies that people tell themselfs to justify their sick existence be standing unchallenged.

>>68835 Intentionally though? Any changes have been minor, we haven't seen serious variation since the neanderthals. Anyway what do we really have to lose? Something comes along capable of overthrowing and surpassing our civilization, or we rot in our hole until our coordination failures bring about human extinction.

You know, I have chickens. They scratch and damage the young seedlings and leave soil exposed. I recently sowed some seeds and placed them close by HOPING the chickens wouldn't damage them, naïvely of course: the chickens already damaged a few of them. I do not get mad anymore, they are chickens, that's just how they behave, it would be stupid for me to expect otherwise. I also think of ants, leaf cutting ants, those fuarrrkers can consume all the leaves of a good numher of trees in their vicinity, and as soon as the trees start putting out new leaves, the ants come back and leave them bare. They are just animals acting according to their genetic programming. I could call it evil, but there is none of that, really. So it is with humans, they are just acting according to some sort of human nature, they are iust like the chickens and the ants: destructive and consuming. The problem is that the world's climate has reached a very nice state that made it possible for humans to proliferate, they consumed the megafauna and then they managed to domesticate annual grains, and then they tapped fossil stores of organic matter with high potential energy. They basically became what has been called an invasive species, and it's taking out of balance every ecosystem on Earth, but that's just the way it is. Usually, when an element is introduced in a system that takes it out of balance, the same element eventually terminates when it has consumed all the resources it can extract from the system, the excess energy is then available for the system to reclaim. Life on Earth is sure to endure even the nuclear catastrophe that humans are engineering, even if most land-dwelling forms of life perish in the process. It's not the first time something like this has happened, need I remind you we are in the sixth massive extinction event?

>>68785 IMHO, for something to deserve to be is irrelevant in any objective sense. What is deserved is decided subjectively. What is, is. If you truly believe humanity does not deserve to live, then make it so, it is your right as something that exists, though I doubt you will be respected for it.

Covid and vaccines were not a hoax. You just want to feel you belong to an enlightened outgroup.

First, stop identifying yourself with the actions of others. Also... what exactly are you trying to prove yourself to? If some cosmic/transcendental being refer to your expert spiritual pulpit and papyrus of choice for what to do, or if you don't trust those things perhaps you would instead prefer realize the alien and incomprehensible nature of such a being cannot be related to, and therefore their wishes cannot be confidently satisfied without some established knowing? If it is society, well bad news son, everything is a fraud ran by secretive and international mafias and the mechanisms of society allow only the pre-established allowance so, what are you contributing to? If it is family and friends, then simple just have their backs, propagate joy, and be good to them. If it's for a 'you' thing of sorts, look within yada yada come to terms with your irrational and values, shadow work soykaf. If you don't know what... guess what? It's absurd. I chose in recognition of the uniqueness, comfort, and novelty of this incarnation and dedicated my life to those very things. Maybe next life I'll worry about what's 'meaningful', though I think that a fool's errand. I think everybody deserves themselves. You may look like an NPC to me but you're unique as fuarrrk. You're you, don't let yourself down, and don't let anybody take that away from you.

Humanity is a social construct created by wicked Enlightenment philosophers as the secular world's new god. Humanity, served by reason and science, would conquer the world and create a rational utopia, be it liberal democratic or some form of Marxism or fascism. All are as hideous and ugly systems of totalitarianism. Why is anything good? "it serves humanity" What is the measure of goodness in today's world? If it serves the good of humanity! It's tantamount to saying, whatever is good is whatever makes me feel good and I don't care how many bodies I have to step over for my good feels. And what did this humanity do? Destroy the planet! Turn whole swathes of earth into a dustbowl! Ruin and destroy every other culture outside of itself, annihilate any animal that gets in its way, batter down mountains to build gigantic fuarrrk you skyscrapers. Humanism is fascism, but instead of going after Jews, humanists go after so-called primitive cultures and the natural environment. There isn't anything they won't pollute or destroy to serve the idol they call "humanity." >Humanism is anti-tech Today's headlines are filled with nonsense about AI. The fear of uncontrolled AI nuking the planet, while dozens of others have moaned on for years about how tech is ruining lives. Okay, we know some tech and certain ways of using can ruin lives that's obvious and you could say it about anything. But where does this fear and hatred really come from? It's pretty clear the mainstream media doesn't care about making life better, they sold us the war in Iraq after all. The anti-computer spirit is rooted in a desire to preserve humanity, this pristine, abstract concept, that is pure innocent and good (it isn't). Technology, like a child sex predator, will come in and corrupt and defile the pure human species Enlightenment philosophers have been trying to build for the last few centuries. So that's why they oppose it. They want technology and the wired to be a slave of their "real world." A convenient tool for information control and nothing more. >human beings are pieces of soykaf In the Abrahamic tradition, we learn that God fashioned Adam from clay. We are literally pieces of soykaf that God made into something for a project one day. We are the product of a hack! There is a difference between human beings, and this idol called "humanity" that liberal humanists have made. Human beings are fine, it's that idiotic idea of "humanity" and self-aggrandizing human greatness that doesn't deserve to live. Why should we be allowed to rip up the earth for oil, then use this oil to poison the air in third world countries? What gives us the right to demolish acres of rain forest so some rich fuarrrks can have massive tracts of land? What gives us the right to invade poor third world countries, kill and rape their women and children and enslave their men? "Humanity" is the idea wheeled out to justify this mess. "we must do it for humanity." To create a better world, we have to get rid of this idea, this narcissism, this belief we are everything and the world revolves around us. The task of cyberpunk is to destroy humanity, not human beings, but humanity.

>>73212 Take your meds, stop derailing threads

>>73251 Take your meds = circumspeak. The language of those circumcised in body and mind.