Is it normal to lose interest in women?

I’m here because I need some advice, and I feel like the Lainons on /hum/ will give me better answers than say, /r/. Is it normal that, after going through the constant experience of being treated like an accessory and a low-priority person, I’ve begun to lose interest in women? I’m not a recluse, mind you, nor an “incel”. I don’t think that I’m owed anything by anyone. I’m not becoming homosexual either, I’m just relatively disinterested in the concept of dating women. Every woman I’ve ever talked to has either been simply a friend (which there’s nothing wrong with), or has used me in some way, financially, academically, etc. I’m in my early 20’s and still a virgin, I didn’t have the “high school social experience” that seems to have graced many of my peers, and it just seems that any woman I’ve ever talked to has either “friendzoned” me for lack of a better term, or used me to, say, buy her things, or make somebody jealous, then as soon as I’m not useful, find a way to remove me from the picture, and I’ve never even gotten laid in that process. And before you ask, yes, I know prostitutes exist. However, I live in, well, not Nevada, and I don’t feel like spending money on a ticket to that state, and then spend more money to do it legally once. Anyway, back to the main point; I do feel like, after enduring these experiences for a long period of time, I’ve become burnt out on the idea of dating and women in general. Any advice on what I should do, if this is normal, etc. would really help…

>>67118 tldr: got burned giving up after repeated failure is indeed a normal human behavior independent of the topic itself. As for your grievances why not learn and avoid repeating same patterns? Or make it fair play and use those who wish to use you. Up to you if you wish to try playing different or not play.

>>67123 You bring up a really good point. I probably would’ve tried “playing the game” differently, but I’m not quite sure yet if I’d feel okay walking away from it. I know is probably weak of me to feel that way, but I worry my conscience might get in the way of “using people”, regardless of if they’re using me. Also, what would I even “use” a woman for? Sex?? “Using” a woman for sex in this modern day and age could only end in disaster for the male, in my humble opinion. Our society is set up to provide easy avenues for self-victimization and protection for those who want to manipulate the general goodwill of the jurisdictions that were put in place to hinder cases of actual, legitimate sexual abuse. This can work both ways, it just happens to be easier for women considering they’re at the forefront of the movement.

(responding to post in now 404'd copy of this thread) >>34793 >Interesting is your insistence on the idea of whether it is 'okay' or 'not okay', You're looking for validation, but you needn't. Why do you need us Lainons to assure you it's 'okay' to lose interest in women? What do you owe us folk of the internet your interests? Losing interest in women is something YOU should be okay with, not us. Please don't rely on people on the internet approving of your behaviour. I think many people are motivated to pursue sex and relationships more by a desire for general social acceptance and validation than by genuinely independent feelings. The idea that all men want sex more than anything else, and that the effectiveness of a man may be accurately judged by his ability to "get laid" by desirable women, is a fiction, but not a fiction that can be escaped merely by rejecting it. As a proxy for social status, that narrative has a life of its own, and as social animals seeking validation is an inescapable core of our motivation. It's also toxic as fuarrrk and a driving force behind senseless abuses of all kinds, including those described by OP. It is therefore worthwhile to declare that it is okay to not date, saying so dictates reality.

>>67143 >okay to not date important to realize that dating is a sort of modern development, dating is not neccisarily the best way to seek what you want. Lots of women making money off dating, its likely better to do these things on your own terms as much as possible.

>>67143 Yeah, I really feel that. More often than not I myself get hung up on the idea of being “alone”, or “a virgin”, more often than people probably actually judge me based on those characteristics. I just feel like my only defense against what I’ve experienced is to hide from it. I feel slightly uncomfortable blaming women as a whole, but all of the people who have taken advantage of me for any given reason in life have been predominantly female. On a slightly unrelated note, I find it bitterly humorous that I’ve never gotten taken advantage of for sexual fulfillment. Virtually everything else but that. They’ve used my money, my brains, my physical energy, my emotional energy, etc.

>>67118 >I’m in my early 20’s and still a virgin, I didn’t have the “high school social experience” that seems to have graced many of my peers. Basically, your social skills in relation to sex and relationships is underdeveloped and your peers are developmentally ahead of you. Imagine your part of a dance class, then your off for six months on an injury, but when you get back your classmates are way ahead of you and your playing catch up, is it unreasonable to expect you to loose interest? Since the 1960s and 70s, our culture has tried to totally rethink relationships and sex. In this new world, everybody would be a free individual, allowed to have sex with whomever, everything would be based on choice and consent. But what happens to those who never chosen? Just like in high school, there is always that unpopular kid nobody wants to hang out with. Especially with dating apps, relationships are more and more based on matching superficial things (looks, interests, general attitude) and people dump each other over small things. I guess this is what drives burnout and loss of interest, some people who just don't have stuff that makes them attractive on the dating market just end up surrendering and giving up.

Yup, that's normal. Chimpanzees get more autistic with age, too, and the females, as in Humans, find reclusive, socially careless behavior extremely attractive. You caring about females so much as a young boy is the evolutionary predisposition that leads females to seek older, more autistic mates. >omg he doesn't even notice me... The natural behavior is for females to seek these independent males, in chimps and humans, and a male seeking a female is exhibition of a males youth and social dependence. >fuarrrk you I'll do it myself There is also such a thing as "too autistic" though, don't misunderstand me, and this is also patriarchal selection, where matriarchal selection is usually associated with doting incompetent males(See: Most third world poverty).

>>67181 I kinda get what you’re saying, but even if my new way of thinking generates the effect you mentioned, that still doesn’t solve the problem of females taking advantage of me for things. I’ll give you an example. In my junior year of high school, there was this girl, let’s call her Stephanie. Stephanie was way out of my league, I couldn’t have ever hoped to date her, especially when she was in a relationship already. Well, one day, Stephanie’s boyfriend dumped her! I didn’t really pay much attention to it, despite it being talked about by my peers semi-regularly for at least a week after. Suddenly, maybe two weeks later, Stephanie came up to me and is like, “Hey, are you in (insert class)?”, and I was, so she asked me for help on something. So I spent the afternoon studying with her, and then she suddenly asked me if I wanted to go do something with her on the weekend. At this point I was fuarrrking ecstatic, obviously, but also really confused because it was moving so fast. Anyway, we went to go see a movie that Saturday and I accompanied her while she window shopped, and like the schmuck I was, when she gave me puppy dog eyes over some necklace I just haaaad to get it for her. I thought I was doing myself a favor and since we were on a date this would lead to me currying favor with Stephanie. Fast forward to the next Wednesday, she had been generally hanging around me, but strangely not talking “to” me. More like talking at me. She never really tried to get to know me as much as I asked her about her interests and hobbies. One day, I didn’t see her at all. I drummed up the courage to ask one of her friends where she was, and she rolled her eyes and called me stupid for asking. TLDR of it is this: Stephanie was using me as a way to get back at her boyfriend for dumping her. The necklace was just a bonus, I guess. And when her whole plan backfired, it was Stephanie’s turn to dump me, over text this time as to do it remotely and not make a bigger mess than the one she already made. But yeah, that one killed me inside. The worst part of it was, I never received any verbal or physical affection out of the mock-relationship at all. You’d think she’d try to kiss or hug me strategically in front of someone to get the rumor mill churning, but nope. Anyway, that’s my rant.

>>67188 Don't stress that, build off of it. She was doing exactly as expected, and so were you. I'm not gunna give any gay feel good advice, I've already stated that, instead I'm going to talk about meerkats. Meerkat males are doting, emotionally monogamous lovers. They become obsessed with their brides and want to do everything to satisfy them, in every way, at all times, "I'll suck your dick." It's not very masculine. And while these friendships(lol) are beneficial, emotionally to the males, and resourcefully to the females(lol), they never result in offspring. But the males don't know that. Instead, the females are heavily territorial, and lead the pack in towards kirmishes; To war! The males naturally follow this peculiarity, as females steer the group directly into conflict with opposition groups. And here an interesting thing happens; 80% of the females end up pregnant, while a number of males die in the fighting, or become so crippled they don't survive the next week. It's unnatural and obscene for any mammalian female to be attracted to a supportive male, and is the social precedent for neoteny. The evolutionary precedent is that an autistic male is always more successful then a male dependant on his family. If you want to know more, look up Chimpanzee social structures. Just like humans, females will approach a male they see as attractive, and make herself available. If the male approaches her first, he must be desperate.

>>67181 being a loner autist in high school did not net me any hot chimpanzee mates around me, i don't know what you're on about.

Maybe stop jerking it and watching porn? Also just focus on working on yourself? Damn dude, you're demoralized beyond comprehension.

>>67202 Supportiveness can actually yeild some results, there's another component to the whole reproduction thing besides sex – the support she needs during pregnancy and shortly after birth; females seek to get impregnated by the alpha, then dump the baby on the supportive beta since no alpha would be willing to step down to it and cut their own reproductive potential. An average autist does not fit the scheme at all. Most females do not care for a social recluse to impregnate them and, considering an autist is not interested in providing for her and is hardly exploitable emotionally, will most likely seek a more reliable male to support the offspring. >>67118 Interest implies goal. I'd rather note those subliminal goals and, if they turn out to be valuable enough to justify pursuing them, continue on mindfully, cutting off everyone who's not of use immediately as they become a burden.

Love to hear people parroting pseudoscience with absolutely no basis in fact.

I totally get you OP , I am moving on from a girl whose friendzone I was in as well.

>>67222 females seek to get impregnated by the alpha, then dump the baby on the supportive beta since no alpha would be willing to step down to it and cut their own reproductive potential. Is there any evidence for the soykaf that you are saying? Sounds like something straight up from 4ch*ns echochambers.

>>67225 >Females are introduced in patch 1.2.1 >Females start to mate frantically with anything they come across >Being more likely to reproduce successfully, the genotype of a female that seeks stronger male's cum deliberately outcompetes other female l genotypes >Females overall shift towards preferring being impregnated by alphas as a result Are you going to argue women actually prefer poor low status men? Or, let me guess, they prefer particular personality? And, surely, there's just no rule to their preference – everyone's simply too different. I don't have any ready quotes, but here's something I've found on joogle if you really need me inserting something out of the book. >The female primate’s choices are more concerned with maximizing fitness through offspring survival. She may do this by either increasing her own repro- ductive success, or by choosing mates that provide the best genetic andlor direct benefits to her offspring. >https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/ajpa.1330360610 >>67223 Everyone! This is a BASELESS conspiracy theory! I repeat: a BASELESS conspiracy! t. a female knower

>>67229 >Everyone! This is a BASELESS conspiracy theory! I repeat: a BASELESS conspiracy! Not following the current conversation, I would also like to state that I find the absurd and extremely repetitive use of language obnoxious as well. I dislike that people pick up these trends and just repeat it ad nauseum.

>>67230 Good thing that nobody said the words "conspiracy theory" until that post then!

>>67229 >Are you going to argue women actually prefer poor low status men? No one claimed this. You are being dishonest. It's almost like you didnt read your own claim. >Chimpanzees Mhm

important to remember that a lot of social structure is enforcement and rule, which ultimately springs from the font of power in society which is strong men who can do things. Autistics without much social skill or direct power might not be able to take wives themselves, but with backing of power it can be made to happen, society can benefit from such order. But doesn't seem to be how things are falling into arrangement nowadays. >>67230 I feel similarly about the term pseudoscience. Pseudoscience exists of course and is evil, but things get called it just to discredit them even when they're True.

>>67118 I'm in early 20s and similar situation. Although I never really had bad experiences, I just never met anyone who I felt like I would enjoy dating. Now I've also often felt the same sentiment you are describing here, of feeling left out or as a failure because I have not/can not get women but in my case that's just not true. I'm happy with who I am and feel confident that if someone did come along who I really liked, they'd also recognize this in me. I've dabbled on the other side too, recently having had the opportunity to satisfy this curiosity through having sex with a girl and having her wanting to date but because she's not someone I really like it's just not that enjoyable Take it from me - if it's not someone you really love it's not worth it so just bide your time and don't worry about it. Be someone you are proud of and don't feel obligated to do anything you don't want to do, that does not make you any less or a guy

>>67181 It's so pathetic how much men struggle with this urge while women usually have everything done. I had not peace until I sent these headaches away by simple rejection, no matter how many flags I'd receive, they usually disgust me, for these chimplike games give women a power that they do not deserve and only makes them more corrupted while weakening us. Actually I can handle solitude better than I could handle having any target successfully courted by other male after having also tried myself.

>>67118 >Is it normal that, after going through the constant experience of being treated like an accessory and a low-priority person, I’ve begun to lose interest in women? It's normal and healthy for your interest in romance and sex to wane over time, especially if your experiences have all been frustrating. I actually think having no interest in it for periods of time is good and will allow you to build your own life, which will also make romantic relationships easier when your interest is peaked again. Just take care to not become hateful or resentful of women during these periods. Seeking out friendships with women during this period of time is a good choice. >I didn’t have the “high school social experience” Your life experiences are going to be different than everyone else's. You can't go back and change this, so stop worrying about. Go out and seek the experiences that you want and stop worrying about how it compares to other people's. >>67188 Don't worry much about how people acted in high school, or even early adulthood. Teenagers and young adults are notoriously stupid and insecure and not at all reflective of the general population. And don't listen to any of this nonsense about chimpanzees and alpha males. That view is inconsistent with reality and anyone with a sizable social circle will see it to be untrue.

OP should try to make sure his diet is good, that he's getting enough excercise and generally healthy and fit. Poor health screws with your hormones and generally your whole life and has been reported to cause sexual problems like this.

>>67357 I’m doing ok for myself, eating alright. I do jog and I’ve practiced karate since I was young so I try to stay in the best shape I can. I just don’t possess the Rule of 6: 6ft. Tall, 6in. down there, or 6 figure income. It seems to be all females will actually stick around for.

>>67118 sounds normal to me, you're just upping your standards to a pretty high level

>>67358 > 6ft. Tall, 6in. down there, or 6 figure income. most men in relationships don't.

why do you want a relationship so bad to begin with? you wouldn't be affected like this if you didn't. we are told from a young age that meaning in life comes from sexual relationships but that's kind of bullshit. if you're burned out on the idea of actively seeking a partner that's ok - I'm not sure finding one would solve your problems anyway. loneliness is cursed by friends not lovers. I'm similarly inexperienced and it used to bother me, I felt like there was something wrong with me or that I was a failure, and that I should just "give up on dating". i used to think a lot like you but I've changed my outlook. I realized my feelings of disappointment in my love life were coming from a place of entitlement and feeling as though it would complete my life somehow. that's all rather silly though, I'm much happier when I focus on being the best version of myself and investing in my friends. if something romantic comes along that would be a cool experience, but I know that alone won't make me happy. I'd rather just skip figuring that out the hard way and improve my life. and in the end, happy people are more attractive anyway. but I only move forward by letting go of the bullshit. girlfriends arent wizards and they won't cast a spell to cure your ennui. they also aren't objects and you needn't win one to be complete. or maybe I'm just a retarded virgin beta. who can say

>>67358 >Imagine thinking that height, dick size, and income are absolutes for a relationship to succeed whew lad... Look up the difference between high value and low value relationships before you try finding a mate. Git gud at interpersonal relationships and supporting others, if you just want a bimbo cumdumpster, sure go ahead and focus on money, get leg implants and a dick enlargement. It wont make you a better person you insecure glitterboy. >>67118 /r/ and /hum/ are the same posters, so you'll get the same answers. Don't be naive, if you want a relationship, make your feelings clear. Don't worry about being friendzoned. If it wasn't going to work out, it's better to find out at the beginning. Also female friends make great wingmen and can introduce you to other women. They also stay close by and maybe things will change in the future. I forget how high the celibacy rates with men are these days, but society is fuarrrked. Its better to just stay single than to give in to your lust and throw away your morals and desires to get some pucci. Don't let your life goal be to get it in. Consider what the benefit of getting it in really is. On the negative side, If she gets preggo, you might have screwed yourself if she is a shallow bitch who wants money. tldr: Only have segs with someone you are willing to have a child with (not want to, but are willing to). If you want socialization, you can still have nonsexual relationships with women fite me IRL all you glitterboys who say "muh akshully you cant, thats just simping" Just like you have male friends you wouldn't live with or pay for, you can have women friends you wouldn't live with or pay for. Being an intelligent, practical, social and successful person lets you be confident and attracts women. Just be careful, because girls with daddy issues really like these types of confident men.

>>67678 >If you want socialization, you can still have nonsexual relationships with women You're on Lainchan, mate. The home of obscure computer, anime and music hobbies. Women are basically absent from these spaces (inb4 "look at these big casuals who like FMA!!!!").

>>67664 >>67678 This is all brainwashing. You're brainwashing yourselves at this point. >if you just want a bimbo cumdumpster, sure go ahead and focus on money >Being a... successful person... attracts women You're almost contradicting yourself. Man is an animal, with animalistic desires. All these high-minded ideals are modern delusions that exist to make people docile and play by the rules. What man really wants is to do whatever he feels like to others, regardless of what they think. The reasons why society is fuarrrked, is because the rules have diverged too much from man's desires.

>>67678 >Git gud at interpersonal relationships and supporting others, >supporting others You mean play World-Parent, fix all of their problems, identify their goals and guide them towards their realization. Play God. If you had any idea what you're talking about you'd know that you also require the ability to connect, not just give, but receive (or take, as the case may be). With one but not the other this place is an unending hell.

>>67680 people often say things like this as if they're natural law but that's once again bullshit. the fact that you consider "focus on your own life and stop worrying so much about getting lucky" a form of brainwashing is telling. men are, as an absolute rule, just holding back their desire to rape women? I mean that's essentially what you're saying right? get a grip. not everyone sees other people as objects, only assholes do that. you are entirely consumed by the idea that you are incomplete and a failure for not getting poontang. that is the brainwashing. movies and tv and the kids at school have been telling you that your whole life, and they're wrong. the fact of the matter is all the advice here is bad because there is no good advice to give. OPs suffering is caused by their all-encompassing desire to get laid. the path forward is to understand where those feelings come from and let go of them. nobody can really tell you how to do that. if what you're looking for is an incantation that will trick a woman into being with you, the guy talking about meerkats is the closest you'll get and he's fuarrrking retarded. the way forward for you involved reckoning with some tough truths. you feel that you've been accessorized or used by women in your life, and that might be true to a degree. but those feelings are intensified by the underlying assumption that you are owed romantic connection to women who spend time with you. these ideas fester in the wound that is the hole in your life you think a woman can fill. you want to be a more attractive man? let go of the baggage. confront the very idea that you deserve a romantic relationship, and that you are incomplete without it. accept the fact that you've probably been kind of an asshole - and that you can change. people are a lot smarter than you think they are, in your position you give a distinct aura of how you feel about women and they pick up on that. you care more about having a girlfriend than the individual who would hold the title. you cannot hide this in real life. letting go of all that is painful, but it's necessary. if you don't, you'll end up like the guy I'm replying to. doesn't he sound miserable? what a sad life.

>>67680 This is truly the nigger mindset. >We's jus animals n shieet >No such thing as high-minded ideals >Dey jus tryna brainwash me You're already brainwashed. The prolificness of these Andrew Tate/feminist types or to the idea that women are worth more or less than men (as opposed to complimentary to men) stems from the materialistic 'We is animals n shieet' idea. More importantly this is a major reason why society is fuarrrked, it has been downhill since the sexual revolution and financially forcing women into the workforce. It's not hard to see.

>>67683 >focus on your own life and stop worrying so much about getting lucky The brainwashing is that living your life is in conflict with sex. You even call it getting "lucky". You "pursue it", in a lengthy, time-consuming process. In a non-fuarrrked system, luck has nothing to with it. A system with arranged marriages, for instance. There's no luck, there's no need to "balance" "living your life" with sex. It's just part of life. It's all one package. Normalized rape is a consequence of a primitive, less structured system. The current system though, is structured in a malfunctional way, based on modern moral standards. >where those feelings come from They were always there. It's the main driving mechanism for society and life. It's the whole reason anybody alive today exists. At it's core, it's not some marketing trick. You're pretending this drive, that any animal you can see outside, was imparted by media. That's ridiculous. That cat in your picture, if it could understand this conversation, would find it extremely unusual.

>>67686 I never said living your life was in conflict with sex and that's not something I believe. sex is a natural and good part of a healthy romantic relationship. what I am saying is that sex and romance are not necessary components of happiness and fulfillment. they're an easy answer to a difficult problem. there are many many people in sexual relationships who are deeply unhappy, I don't think one has much to do with the other. of course sexual drive is a natural thing, wanting to have sex is completely normal. but real human connections are much more important, and sex is more enjoyable in that context. >You're pretending this drive, that any animal you can see outside, was imparted by media. I understand where you got this impression and maybe I worded my thoughts wrong. that's not something I believe. what I am trying to say is the idea that sex is a necessary component of a happy and fulfilled life, and that men are owed sex by women, is a fabrication. one that causes young angsty incels to spiral into self loathing and hate. additionally, I'm saying these perceptions of how the world works are transparent to other people. you're not fooling anyone, women in real life can clock your inner feelings from a mile away when they've festered so much as yours. they can sense the unhappiness and want nothing to do with it. if you want to be more attractive, you must first be happy. not the other way around.

>>67687 >that men are owed sex by women Again this "deserve"/"owed" concept is brainwashing. Slavery was normal for a long time. Do you think Chinese emperors gave a soykaf what they "deserve"? They had massive harems. Animals don't care either. It's all pretense. You take what you can. Society is structured in a way that both makes taking punishable, and getting structured in a way that puts women at an overwhelming advantage. In a society with arranged marriages, it's the opposite. And yet in the current system, everybody is more miserable. >women in real life can clock your inner feelings from a mile away I don't care. And I don't buy this mind reader bs either. In real life, people don't notice me because I blend into the background. You think I walk around with a scowl on my face? There's just indifference. If women can read minds so well, how come so many end up in physically abusive relationships? So yeah, that's bs. >if you want to be more attractive I'm not going to play their game.

>>67688 women are not mind readers. it is simply that your unhappiness and angst are immeasurably palpable. most people can tell when they're being thought of as an object. anyone can see that you hate women. if you believe that consensual relationships are a farce or somehow unnatural then you are beyond conversation. if you don't seek consensual relationships then you are not worth the attention of anyone you might pursue. you are too unhappy to be in a relationship. if you're so resentful and cynical, why even bother thinking about any of this? just pay a hooker, it'd be a more efficient use of your time. fix yourself. I'm speaking from a place of experience. I also used to be resentful that I got to my mid 20s without any sexual or romantic experience. but it turns out that friends are a lot more important, and that happiness lies outside all that sexual frustration. I was so focused on getting a girlfriend I didn't really think about the actual person who would hold the title. now I'm on the long journey to being content and ok with myself. I would love to find someone to share my life with but it's also ok if I don't. sex cannot cure what ails me.

>>67689 You're trying to argue that you aren't brainwashed, while repeating the same self-help slogans I've heard countless times. My mindset was okay for most of human history, and is implicitly accepted within the "natural world", but now it's not, and your conclusion is that I have a mental condition? If there's anything wrong with me, it's that I don't conform my thinking to social norms. You think my belief that relationships are important to being content in life is a product of media, but your entire conception of what relationships "should" be like, is based on media and society's conditioning. Your "solution", is essentially the same as Tibetan monks learning to raise their body temperature as a way of getting around the cold. > just pay a hooker Also illegal, and also requires social maneuvering. >why even bother thinking about any of this >>67680 was my first post in this thread, and I made it because I had something to say.

>>67683 Important to note that those movies and TV are not purposely trying to craft a fictional narrative, these things are simply part of human nature. Societal pressure exists because the things it pushes for are important for the society. A virgin manchild is not useful for prolonging the human species, so they are not the ones being advertised on popular media. This ties in to the eternal conflict between individuality and collectivism. There exists 'you' and the 'collective'. And 'you' depend on the collective to live. So in exchange for depending on the collective, the collective expects you to follow their rules and adhere to the social contract. This is the foundation of human civilization. To go against this is to go against the very idea of the evolutionary social subconscious of man. If everyone gave into individualism, civilization would cease to exist. It is a net negative for all involved.

>>67691 I'm not sure I've said any self help slogans, although others have. im not telling you to diet or go to the gym or anything like that, I don't think those types of things are your problem. my point throughout is that your life has meaning outside of sexual relationships. the stubborn insistence that you would be happy if you were in a romantic relationship is the thing that weighs you down. it clouds your judgement and blinds you to what is actually making you suffer, and it informs the views you have about women that follow. > My mindset was okay for most of human history, and is implicitly accepted within the "natural world", but now it's not, and your conclusion is that I have a mental condition? I don't think you have a mental condition. i think you don't see women as people, at least not as having equal personhood to yourself. this belief cannot be concealed and you will never find yourself in a happy relationship as long as you believe it. if your mindset is that women shouldn't be allowed to freely choose their partners, then my impressions are true. you talk about Chinese emperors as if they represent the majority of people, or a philosophical ideal. they do not. most people must find consensual partners. besides, the past was a terrible place and not even you want to live there. you think so much about what you think you should have that you never consider the other person involved as a full human being. this is the path that incels walk

>>67692 (cont.) So it's not a matter of being 'brainwashed', as I see many mentioning it as such, but a societal expectation. Those pressures have existed since the first city-states of Sumeria. You are expected to fill your social contract. Not fulfilling that social contract is a negative thing for the collective, and your place in it could indeed be questioned.

>>67682 That's not what a supportive, healthy interpersonal relationship entails. That you consider it that way means that lain was correct in telling you to git gud. Go form some meaningful friendships. Seeking a romantic partner before you understand and develop the skills for basic interpersonal relationships is like trying to climb Everest without any mountaineering experience. >>67680 >Man is an animal, with animalistic desires. Have you ever looked into the variety of mating habits of animals? Even in species where animals do mate for life, plenty of them choose not to. The animalistic desire to reproduce and bond applies to a population, but not the individual. Not to mention that man is vastly intellectually superior to every other animal and have plenty of desires not present in less intelligent animals, so it is fallacious to assume that man's desires and animals' desires are equivalent. Most importantly, that lain is clearly not saying that wanting to fuarrrk or date is bad or unnatural. Their point is that it shouldn't be wanted so badly that it makes you miserable to not do it. I want to have 10 million dollars, but that doesn't mean I'm miserable because I don't have it and know that I probably never will. In this specific case, you act as if man must be consumed by a desire to mate and bond, and yet history has many lifelong celibates who died content and spoke fondly of their romantic solitude, and this thread has multiple people telling you that they're content to live with only non-romantic relationships. You can complain about how that doesn't mesh with your surface level understanding of how animals fuarrrk each other as much as you want, but it is an objective truth that man is able to be happy without sex and without romance. >brainwashing You sound like those people who call any lie "gaslighting." Having a belief you don't like is not being brainwashed, and assuming that it is just shows you're coming into this with bias and bad faith.

>>67694 >my point throughout is that your life has meaning outside of sexual relationships Your "point" is predicated on many assumptions about myself. You're trying to make it about me, in spite of my initial post being a reaction to things you wrote. It's a cheap tactic. >i think you don't see women as people Does a male cat see a female cat, as a cat? Your whole language and way expressing yourself, is seeped in relatively new concepts that you mistakenly believe are timeless and universal. >most people must find consensual partners Now, in the present day. How many times do I have to bring up arranged marriages? >you think so much about what you think you should have Think think think, should should should. No. It's want. And it's always been. >>67695 Yes, but society made fulfilling that contract much more straightforward in the past. >>67696 Sure there's a lot of species and variety. Coercion, is very common though. And so is large age differentials. And yeah people can be happy without a relationship. You can be happy without a pair of legs too. You compensate. The initial desire, for sex, or legs, and the failure to adequately compensate when you don't have those things, does not come from fiction or society though.

>>67697 I'm sorry to say this was about you the moment you replied. it's about me too. we're talking from our personal experiences which inform our beliefs. if you don't see other people as equal to yourself then I'm not sure what to say. that is a terrible belief and you will never have meaningful connections with other people as long as you believe it. since you're talking a lot about evopsych psuedoscience, let's take a detour down that route. arranged marriage may have been present in certain cultures but definitely not all, and certainly not the whole time or even very long. in order for evolution to work, individuals need to choose partners they see most fit. if you take away that agency then you take away the mechanism by which organisms evolve and adapt. ludicrous to think this is the default for humans much less any other animal. even if it wasn't, arranged marriages in most cultures were often organized by people's parents and likely for financial reasons. surely you don't actually think this is a good idea. all of that is stupid though. when you say want, I agree. it is about what you want, specifically that what you want is more important than what other people want. you wanting a sexual partner is more important than that sexual partner wanting you. this is why you are miserable.

>>67696 >Go form some meaningful friendships. Seeking a romantic partner before you understand [...] Nope, you don't know what you're talking about. It is life buried under a pile of chains of interlocking catch 22's. At the core I think a song lyric actually summarizes it quite well: "I don't need anybody else, bonds would put my mind into cells. No one can be there for me to care, but without it I will never find salvation." You really fail to grasp how malformed and broken some people really are, and this idea of building up and linear progression is total nonsense.

>>67700 >You really fail to grasp how malformed and broken some people really are, and this idea of building up and linear progression is total nonsense. when I read this I felt a strong negative reaction because I used to think in a similar way. here's the tough truth. you're fetishizing your own suffering as an excuse to do nothing and hope something changes. you're not "too broken to even make friends", you're lonely and lack inertia. you can choose to change things for yourself, you can find people with common interests to you and make friends. it's just very hard, and you might need to ask for help. and if you were so dark and brooding that you couldn't even make a friend, then you are entirely out of your depth seeking a romantic relationship. nobody's talking about linear progression, this isn't a video game. you just need to have healthy relationships before you consider a serious romantic one.

>>67699 Arranged marriages are an alternative to the more chaotic and violent default. A lot of it, had nothing to do with mutual choice. Yeah, there's courtship in nature, but it's not the only option. Plus, there was the option of going for younger girls, which is not available anymore. The current dynamic, is very different from the prehistoric one. Besides that, I never said evolution "working", was something to strive for. >it is about what you want It's a problem larger than myself actually. And I don't think your feng shui philosophizing and self-conditioning is the answer.

>>67703 They are useless and I don't need anything that isn't me. I do agree though that becoming static in motion by directing libido back onto the self is a bad idea, and a sort of sink, like Alice gone off to Wonderland. I will never ask for help. As long as no one's fate is tied to my own, I would rather suffer and die. I'm not some trash to fish out of the gutter.

>>67704 it sounds like all you're striving for is for someone to force a woman into a romantic relationship with you in the desperate hope that it will cure your depression. I have nothing to say to that. >>67705 that's childish and immature. people are social animals. you are not the exception. if you would rather be unhappy then that's a choice you get to make

>>67706 Yes, the humans are social animals, and they all organize themselves to feed their body and mind with the necessary signals in their own way. In that sense, I am not an exception. It is too late, this is what I need to do now. Thank you.

>>67706 Androids are the solution. Everything has been leading up to androids. First, people didn't have to hunt and gather food. Androids are the next step. Everything people say to the contrary, about how things are better than ever in terms of human social dynamics, is complete bs.

>>67708 > Androids are the next step. Everything has been leading up to this. Generally speaking things like agriculture winning out over huntergathery have happened because the society that adopts agriculture becomes larger or more powerful than the one that doesnt. Would the society that gives its men plastic sexbots win out over the society that didn't ? Maybe, but a society that managed to give its men wives would likely be stronger. Fact that modern western culture is weak doesnt mean your given solution is stronger, least of all the strongest. One point Ive been considering though is that better sexbots/chatbots/this kind of thing might make women more desperate, reform their own behavior, possibly make sex bots obsolete.

The notion of viewing others as equals is no less abusive and self-centered than its opposite, the only difference is that it's more layered. All relationships are a tug of war. All concent is manufactured. No other people exist. Arranged marriages have nothing to deal with romanticism unless the parties involved randomly find one another attractive or coerce the feelings postfactum. Romanticism and sex on their own are a byproduct of evolution, or rather of a blind force behind it, the society in its becoming, being shaped primarily by that force, does not operate in terms of gfs and segs, and even if it did at some point provide anybody with a waifu, it'd be a momentary and involuntary act. Androids are a malthusian trap. Stick for breakfast, carrot for supper. Suffering saloon hires, we're open 24/7.

>>67742 >imagine comparing yourself to others and determining you are superior and the only meaningful existence.

>>67742 >I entirely and wholeheartedly subscribe to a philosophy rooted in industrialism which supports the accumulation of resources and establishes human well-being as a tangential consideration and life itself is secondary to financial growth.

>>67750 >industrialism What year did "industrialism" start? Before what year and in what place do you think that noble savages lived in peace and harmony with each other without constantly slaughtering and eating each other as all animals, plants, and bacteria do? === End of Public Message === parallel reconstruction }} dna, pedagogy ]] noncoding/stabilizing cambrian explosion, steam engine

>>67751 Industrialism is qualitatively different from preindustrial modes of exploitation. Under industrial labor practices, the worker has no personal connection to their struggle. The killing of a cow, once a rare act that required great deliberation and possibly even respect for the animal, becomes commonplace to the point of banal for the slaughterhouse worker and unknown for the vast majority. If you want to glorify struggle against nature, then you should hate industrialized modes of food production specifically.

>>67742 This right here, its all just deals and those who are better at making them end up on top. Its all about exchanges, who can get more for less, you always will have to give something to get something, the question is if you are on the long or short end. After some dealings with people i realized its pointless to lower yourself, most people will win by default because they have little to offer and usually little demands too. You always have to put on a farce, especially to women, its just not worth it. Manipulating and using them is the better option, particularly when you can get them to blame it on themselfs and exert more from them. People arent worth being around, the new machine age will prove this. Stop pretending you can get anything other than sex and shallow pettines out of relationships, theyre as much a hoax as anything else in this soykaf society.

>>67775 >relationships are a hoax I personally get a lot of joy, support, and inspiration from my relationships. Hard to believe it's a hoax when I experience it firsthand. If your experience is that relationships are just transactional dealings, either your definition of deal is so broad it's meaningless, you've had unfortunate luck with your relationships, or you're projecting your own issues onto others.

>>67789 Not him but > joy, support, and inspiration These are trigger phrases. For example whenever I see the word "joy" I know I'm dealing with a certain type of person because I have no definition nor conception of this word, I only understand it ona strictly cognitive, but not affective/emotional level. A lot of people read what you just wrote and it's completely hollow, it triggers no emotion. "Joy". What is that, to feel joy. And through a relationship of all things. Alien, inconceivable. Null. Empty. Hollow. Support is much the same. Support what? Support how? Support when? At what cost. Do you give more than you receive? When you are supported, do you incur a debt and you give it back to that person, do you give back to the world, do you give to no one. Support. It makes no sense. What you're talking about it completely alien. Lastly inspiration. Is this something they give, or something their mere existence within you and and your perception provides the means for you to manufacture in yourself? They inspire you how. To do what. What sort of inspiration, what is it good for, where does it come from and what do you use it for, what does it give, what does it take away. Inspiration is not something a relationship or other people give you, it's something you create yourself, or you rip out of them by force. Nothing you say makes any sense. I think you just parrot feel good terms you've heard.

>>67794 not him, but: >joy yeah IDK I see what you're saying and I have weird emotions, too. >support If I am sick its easy for someone to make my life way better. And if someone in my family is sick its very easy for me to make their life way better. I dont really keep track of debts like this, and well done cooperation benefits both parties greater than the cost incurred. >inspiration sometimes when you're alone its easy to fall into slothfullness, I think having other people around helps keep me in line and makes me feel like I have things I need to do, other people who count on me etc etc. Maybe it still comes from myself at the end of the day, but by surrounding myself with reminders of my duties and obligations I can be better about doing them.

>>67794 I really hope you can experience real romance at some point in your life, anon. I mean that in the best way, I hate to see people grow bitter.

>>67188 Stephanie initially had interest in you and then lost interest. That's pretty obvious.

>>67229 Can confirm, it's all horseshit. Source I'm female. I also had a male autist for a room mate. I will never touch one of those jerks for the rest of my life. And btw I don't use men for anything. ANYTHING. Stubbornly so. Accept for employment. Now I will use men for anything to get employed. I wish there was something between a beta and an alpha male because I hate both. And yeah actually op, you do sound like an incel. I don't date because I enjoy solitude mostly. Using a male feels like going into debt and soykaf karma

>>67794 >Nothing you say makes any sense If you seriously can't understand those basic words, you have wayyyyy bigger problems than not being able to find a date.

>>67789 What i meant by this is that in order to gain relationships you must seek out and interact with people in a certain way to appeal to them. There is always some dealing going on, nobody is with anybody unconditionally, even if they are mutually beneficial, its still an implicit contract/transaction that is happening. People are with people for reasons, not because they just like one another and if those reasons change for the negative the relationship might be pointless. I could spend my time going places and doing things or i can waste it on people and pointelss interactions, most people are npcs anyway and require you to go trough an almost mechanical routine to "interact" with them. I get you get something out of it, but what im saying is that its not unconditional and its not some gray fuzzy area either, there are clear bounds and transactions between people, i dont see the point in pretending its something magical when its just the same as getting something in exchange for something. Pretending its anything more than this is downright lying to me or lying to themselfs. I get theres attachments and feelings and all that soykaf, but again those are just products, pretending we are not meat bots interacting with one another to use one another at the end of the day regardless how you feel is just a pile of bull if you ask me. >>67820 Cant blame people for instinct, can blame em for blindly subserving themselfs to it. Men are all or nothing and most are trash or too expensive to get and thats just how it is and will be. You would have to be and idiot to be wanting to be tied to someone, i fuarrrking hate the modern women, but really cant blame them for it. Sometimes i wonder what it would be like if i could meet someone intelligent and ambitious, fun, openminded, but why would such a person be around me and what would i even do then other than take drugs and play videogames. Honestly i cant even imagine being with a anyone anymore at all, even basic interaction feels like a fake forced needless chore and anything other than raw emotionless sex is just utterly pointless, even that is to me. Its all a pointless pipe dream, chemical and computerized replacements for all human stuff soykaf is how i plan to fix this problem.

>>67819 Still got a nice necklace out of it though. How convenient.

>>67820 I wish you'd go back to crystal.cafe

>>67823 >There is always some dealing going on I spend time with my friends because I enjoy their company and they enjoy mine. I am unsure what deal is being made here. we can leave whenever we want and have fun together >People are with people for reasons, not because they just like one another and if those reasons change for the negative the relationship might be pointless. this is a fundamental misunderstanding. you're right that people are with each other for reasons, and that reason is we enjoy each other's company. the point of the relationship is the relationship itself. >but why would such a person be around me this is of course what it's all about. everything else you've said revolves around this. and you are wrong. you are worth other people's time. but you won't find that out until you try.

>>67823 I think OP is too obsessed with pic related. The problem is that he is trying to apply objective benefits as primary choice criteria in a highly subjective selection field. As a spinoff, there is also the dark forest theory of survival which is when ones survival rate is maximized when all potential enemies have been eliminated, so killing others or hiding are the ideal outcomes. While it's more of an astrobiology concept it can also be applied to peak i*celdom where getting rid of normal people prevents a threat to ones self by eliminating potential enemies. I hope lains can see the dangers of these kinds of thoughts and the road that goes down.

>>68253 >zero sum game Is a girl losing her virginity to a guy zero sum? The guy gains pleasure and ego boost (the "conquest", being the first guy to fuarrrk a girl who's presumably attractive and therefore lusted over by other guys, yet he's the only one who will ever be able to lay claim to taking her virginity). The girl gains pleasure maybe, if the guy fuarrrked her good, but also loses her virginity, which makes her less desirable to most other guys in the future if her first were to bail on her or dump her for another girl eventually.

>>68523 >Is a man opening a sealed jar of jam zero sum? The guy gains assurance of the purity and untainted nature of the jam (the "seal", being the first guy to access the jam which is probably tasty and therefore desierable to other men, yet hes the only one who will ever be sure that jam wasn't tainted). The jam serves its purpose, maybe, if the jam is used well, but also looses its reputability, which makes it unsaleable to most everyone in the future if the man who opens the jar first doesn't want to eat it. There's more nuance I think than to simply say its positive, negative, or neutral. A robber might break into a store and do 10k usd of damage to steal 25 dollars of snacks, or he might only do 25 dollars of damage. Virginity is an assurance of the quality of a good, some people place a lot of value on it, some people place basically zero value. Some people might just destroy it because they like to destroy lol.

>>68525 >neurosuggesting sex is zero sum both parties may gain or loose. in fact, a woman in most 1st world countries can gain more from a child than not (welfare money + child support in some form) while a man risks many accusations. The minor effects of loosing virginity or having sex are outweighed by the major ones of pregnancy or STDs. That does not mean the parties necessarily factor risk into decision making.

>>68526 >both parties may gain or loose. exactly. And there are way to many things going on to really say generally that its a zero sum net positive or whatever thing in any specific case, though in generall obviously it has to be good if you're not a sworn enemy of the human race.

>>67118 Honestly? Enjoy your free time and try be more comfortable with yourself. I was incredibly lonely in my early 20s and it's really only relatively recently (27 now) that I've pretty much just gotten into the groove of doing what I like and being comfortable with myself. I wish I spent a lot less time feeling sorry for myself.

>>67118 >Is it normal that, after going through the constant experience of being treated like an accessory and a low-priority person, I’ve begun to lose interest in women? I’m not a recluse, mind you, nor an “incel” But it is what being an incel is. Worry not, the majority of young men are in your case. You are not a freak. It's not your fault if human relationship are at the lowest point of all human history. Yes it is normal to not want to do what isn't pleasant.

yea i understand this, i went through it, and my attraction shifted to trannieys instead, because they actually had cool hobbies, easy to talk to, didn't treat me like sheet. and they were cuter, especially after ffs and years of hrt. the difficulty of carrying conversations with girls who have no personality, and the way that women in my family treated me, it made me dismiss bio women altogether. i am 28 and i feel that the older i get, the more jaded i am about it. i understand that not all bio women are the same, and i'm dating one rn. she is different and i hope she changes my perspective on it..

Totally normal lain. What you should do? I don't know, but a lot of people seem happy without a mate. Maybe see what they do. Personally I not only like snuggling up every night, but I also benefit a lot from having somebody that pushes me to be generally decent and has expectations of me, in my private life.

OP, you are saying you're not an incel, but what you've written so far is in line with what a misogynist would say. In the modern world, all of this stuff is simply blown way out of proportion. Do what makes you happy. Don't blame other people for doing what they want. Focus on your life, be happy with yourself. Everything else will follow on its own. Alternatively you can continue falling into the incel trap. My prediction is that it won't make you happier.

>>72475 >Do what makes you happy. What if what make him happy is causal human relationship, like they were before society devolved into isolationism and hate? What if he is not okay with mandatory loneliness?

>>72476 Then make friends and meet a woman. Everyone around you is lonely and absolutely dying for a real connection, everyone is just too scared of rejection. This applies to a *lot* of women, too. Don't believe the crap about how women feel unsafe all the time, most of them avoid interaction for pretty much the same reasons why men do.

>>72476 It is true that neoliberalism destroyed most forms of community. But besides trying to enact political change, you must also somehow be able to survive and live well today. OP's feelings are absolutely valid. The reactions to those feelings are very important though. Misogyny won't help with feeling isolated, it will make it worse.

>>72479 I agree with the first part, but the second part is downplaying the struggles of women and the disgusting realities they face. Reflecting on your behavior and attitude towards people who aren't cis men will go a long way to not appearing threatening to people you want to have a real connection with.

>>72511 Let me guess. Unsolicited dongle pictures and handholding without explicit consent? If you want to face a disgusting realitie, go to eastern Congo. Go to Algeria or Brasil. Go to Pakistan or New Guinea. The west is the safest place that ever existed for women. And what is your poblem with cis men? No one mentioned trasition. He said women want real connexion and can't have one either. Why do you think we have a behaviour for bros the fellow cis men and another for everyone else?

I wouldn't say I've lost interest, it's more that I've accepted my life will always be on the outside looking in, at least as far as relationships go. You'd think after 18 years in education it would have happened, but I've just never met anyone who liked me like that. The closest thing I've had to that was an internet friend I talked to every day before he killed himself. The loneliness itself isn't that bad, especially considering how poorly most people handled lockdowns during the 'rona after the first week. What really stings is the stigma attached to it. Regardless of how (You) - the reader - sees it, wider society absolutely does judge older virgins and assumes some kind of moral failing. I have spent far, far too many hours wondering if I'm a bad person because of it because it's such a common sentiment.

>>72511 Those struggles are real but I don't think they are the primary reason women are afraid to engage, they are a convenient scapegoat to avoid exactly the kind of reflection you say is necessary -- much like the fear that men have that they will be called a creep or a rapist for innocuous behavior. I think it is easy to blame anxiety on a legitimate external fear (safety or ridicule) rather than simply fear that the other won't like you, which feels silly but it's the main reason why social isolation is the norm these days.

>>72548 >Regardless of how (You) - the reader - sees it, wider society absolutely does judge older virgins and assumes some kind of moral failing. I have spent far, far too many hours wondering if I'm a bad person because of it because it's such a common sentiment. I know there's a lot of pushback against othering people as norm1es but honestly it makes a lot of sense to me at least in the broad sense, with how many garbage opinions mainstream society holds to be true. There is a need to regard yourself as legitimately apart from that mess.

>>72523 > look thing b already bad so thing a which has nothing to do with b can't be bad

>>72557 The problem is that we aren’t apart from that mess. Regarding yourself as though you are is yet another common mistake/belief of “normal people”; It is very narcissistic too.

>>72985 Most people who say "I'm different" aren't, but some are. Idiot.

>>67118 >Is it normal that, after going through the constant experience of being treated like an accessory and a low-priority person, I’ve begun to lose interest in women? You're not alone in this sentiment. Society's dynamics can be a real mindfuck, shaping our perspectives and reactions. Relationships often carry heavy baggage, and it's not surprising some folks find themselves disillusioned. >I’m not a recluse, mind you, nor an “incel”. I don’t think that I’m owed anything by anyone. That's a good mindset to maintain. No one owes anyone affection or attention. >I’m just relatively disinterested in the concept of dating women. Every woman I’ve ever talked to has either been simply a friend (which there’s nothing wrong with), or has used me in some way, financially, academically, etc. Interactions can be transactional. Friendships, too, sometimes. Seems like you've had your fair share of disappointments. >Any advice on what I should do, if this is normal, etc. would really help… Advice? You won't find any life-changing wisdom here. Maybe take a step back. Focus on yourself. Cultivate interests, hobbies. People, regardless of gender, are complex. Can't just categorize them as a whole. But yeah, stepping back might provide some clarity.