Eternal resistance.

Is it possible to, in any way, carry out subversive actions under absolute totalitarianism? Has there in history ever been a resistance group that managed to thrive under complete repression? Is there an organizational model that allows for a group to survive despite nearly complete control of society? That is, is it possible to ever truly break the innate human tendency to fight back?

>>66823 Didn't we have this thread before? >Is it possible to, in any way, carry out subversive actions under absolute totalitarianism? Yes. >Has there in history ever been a resistance group that managed to thrive under complete repression? Well, the entire Irish Brotherhood, IRA, "Gaelic League", etc. (I hope no one misunderstands my mention of the "Gaelic League". I'll elaborate if I need to.) >Is there an organizational model that allows for a group to survive despite nearly complete control of society? guerilla tactics + lone wolf / cells. >That is, is it possible to ever truly break the innate human tendency to fight back? Only if you can solve the problems that matter to these groups. So, basically: no. You can only really kill them off, but that doesn't "break them". One great example of resistance is the various third position derivatives. There is a group that I will not name that operates using very basic things. It isn't "leaderless" exactly, but it can be seen as "leaderless". There are cell-heads that communicate to larger groups. All contact is entirely anonymous, in both directions. The only membership awareness is done through the leader of each cell. The ideal membership suggestion, in these cells, are basically childhood friends / family members, and to keep it 3 - 5. The "leadership" is usually done using gpg-keys and certain types of emails. In some cases, they use encrypted public pastes that seem anonymous (I won't go into too much detail into this.) Most of what is shared is propaganda posters/stickers/etc. There are encrypted file drops, but that's about it. Most action is self-directed, but in some cases there are "suggestions" of actions that *tend* to be coordinated, but left for some interpretation. Interestingly, the "leader" isn't as important and there can be "swapping" that occurs. But even if the "leader" is disappears for any reason, and no one "replaces" him, every cell is operating under a certain capacity that doesn't require one. They all share the same general rules of engagement, with some certain "call signs", and so on. Everything I have said in this post is speculation on a group that probably does not exist.

>>66824 Great post with excellent insight. I would wish luck to that group were it to exist which it doesn't

>>66823 the most interesting take i read on this was arguing morals are a form of resistance the slaves imposed on the upper class as the only way to fight back and get better treatment. > is it possible to ever truly break the innate human tendency to fight back? Look around you - you simply make the chains invisible to the morons and jail comfortable to the smart.

There is no absolute totalitarianism. Even North-Koreans manage to watch smuggled K-dramas. Soviet Union had Samizdat and so on. Basically totalitarianism is a utopian system and such systems always collapse, turns out you cannot 'fix' humans.

>>66827 >country with no tech is an example that high tech surveillance state is impossible

>>66828 >high tech fundamentally changes the principles of statecraft The idea of being monitored constantly is not new. It's just cheaper now.

>>66829 Cheaper and with centralized direct control. Human oversight can't rival automated surveillance because its too expensive and humans aren't reliable with command lines equaling playing chinese whispers.

>>66830 Again, these are not qualitative changes. The fundamental principles at play remain the same.

>>66834 qualitative change is doable / not doable. Constant permanent surveillance on entire population becomes only now doable thanks to modern tech.

>>66826 Master/Slave morality?

>>66823 I genuinely believe Western liberal societies are the ultimate form of totalitarianism because most citizens aren't consciously aware of it. It all relies on the illusion of choice and consent. In America your presented with dozens of life choices, you can be liberal, conservative, gay, straight, religious, atheist etc. you are free to choose. In reality, America is structured like an enclosed subway system, you can move up and down the line, you can travel to different stations, or transfer onto another line, but you can never leave the system. This restricted ability to move creates the illusion of freedom, that society is NOT totalitarian because we have freedom of choice, but in reality you cannot choose anything outside of the box. Republicans and democrats are identical, all religions in America are domesticated into something that's basically boring Christianity, even incels are just the mirror image of feminists. >is it possible to ever truly break the innate human tendency to fight back? Well, is such a tendency really innate? With enough psychological manipulation applied at a young age, you can effectively breed any instinct out of any animal, including humans. If you look at the sheer level of conformity in modern Western societies its shocking. How do they achieve this? Well, if you create a dozen social media accounts and get them to Tweet #PrayforUkraine guess what, most social media users will just follow suit even if they don't know where Ukraine is. It's heard mentality, do what others do. I think a more interesting question is, given then extreme amount of control and surveillance placed upon ordinary people, why do rebels exist at all? Why is there still a minority who resist and fight back even when it goes against the heard mentality? >Is there an organizational model that allows for a group to survive despite nearly complete control of society? I think an effective method is to build alternatives to the state. How does the state control people? Through institutions like schools, hospitals, clinics etc. Any place experts work where surveillance and record keeping is done. If you successfully undermine these institutions you can subvert the authority of the state by simply keeping people outside it and off the grid. You use what resources you have available to create your own schools, clinics, hospitals, sports groups, hiking clubs, student associations, trade unions, this way a person goes through your anti-system and not the brainwashing system of the government. This is a technique used in many third world countries and you could apply it to America, but only if you had the financial and human resources, a good example were the Black Panthers and the Nation of Islam with their cop watching, education, and free breakfast programs, they also targeted demographics completely neglected by the state. However, lack of finances and effective counter-intelligence techniques to deter FBI infiltrators is what destroyed them in the end. So what you need is a effective social organization as well as a clandestine organization that is totally underground and operates in secret, and aim to recruit from segments of the population that are marginalized or ignored by the government (red necks, inner city blacks, immigrants, coal miners, people who live in trailer parks, drug users, underpaid wagies).

>>66839 The argument was before rules exist anything goes which allows greater cruelty. By promoting a ruleset you can limit the abuse you receive. This is what morals accomplish. As for how its by flattery and praise. You superior won't tolerate badmouthing but will accept bathing in praise which works all the same to steer people.

>>66838 a) it's still very possible to opt out, just throw away your phone b) surveillance is mostly effective because it creates a culture of paranoia where people are too afraid to band together with potential comrades. If you're afraid your friend will turn you in if you tell him your true feelings, that is a much more effective deterrent to resistance than a silent watcher in your phone. >>66840 >With enough psychological manipulation applied at a young age, you can effectively breed any instinct out of any animal, including humans Really not true. Wolves raised among humans don't act like dogs, for example. If you are willing to spend a lot of money on active psychological conditioning, and very tightly control the environment, you can pretty reliably break *one* person. But in statecraft it is much more effective to loosely control the environment enough to break 80-90% of people. The other 10% will always be against you. >How does the state control people? Through institutions like schools, hospitals, clinics etc. Any place experts work where surveillance and record keeping is done. If you successfully undermine these institutions you can subvert the authority of the state by simply keeping people outside it and off the grid. This is a good idea. However this is just subverting the carrot part. You also need to keep the pigs (the stick) off your back.

>>66823 This was the whole premise of 1984. Pre-20th century history is kinda irrelevant for this, since back then it was 100x easier to get away with crime. Now we have communication surveillance, DNA sampling, tracking chips in our phones, the NSA admits to reading our messages, and more recently entire cities are being filled with biometric data collectors which are near invisible. Next time absolute totalitarianism happens, it won't look like the Third Reich, USSR, North Korea or even China. It'll be way worse.

>>66843 >throw away phone everyone you meet still has their phone. Street in city also are full of cctv with face recognition trailing where everyone goes. So as long as you move within city removing your own phone doesn't change much. Where i was aiming at was not about you as an individual do however. As people increasingly communicate solely online it becomes easier than ever to control communication between people. And its doable in a automated centralized manner. The people in the village used to be their own microcosm. Now same people sit all online under watch as they type away commenting and consuming selected news.

>>66852 >Street in city also are full of cctv with face recognition trailing where everyone goes. Depends a lot on the city and on the street. There are plenty of cracks. and get their work done in the cracks. >As people increasingly communicate solely online Do you really think terrorists and spies are communicating solely online? Or do you just think they don't exist (in which case, you have fallen prey to the oldest propaganda in the book - pretend your enemy doesn't really exist)

ITT: Normans insist that because everyone reads Pravda and the secret police have ears everywhere, resistance is impossible.

>>66823 Yeah. Get a job in academia, help likeminded people get hired until you take control of the educational institutions, plant your subversive ideas in the next generation of elites, wait 20 to 40 years, profit.

>>66840 >Why is there still a minority who resist and fight back even when it goes against the heard mentality? Most of the "rebels" just subscribe to propaganda from the opposing side. Opposite to what it might seem, the world is pretty fragmented when it comes to ideology. Western/US politics might ultimately be all the same, but the Chinese/Russians for instance have their own interests to push.

>>66886 While this is true you can basically attribute most rabid fans to people believing it will give them what they want. Like commie fans are 90% unemployed and think socialism means more free soykaf. Capitalism fans on the opposite have stable income and are solely concerned about not getting the little they have taken away. And you can play that game with any faction war. Smart say academia was made too easy cause free pass is lowering the value of their degree. Idiots say gatekeeping is bad to get free degrees. Bussines & Military say the same thing about people. A minority of early adopters uses their brain and will buy if you have a good product. The majority are npcs only following popularity. So herd mentality is never all people and you have to target those not part of it to kickstart your project.

>>66823 I don't think it's possible.

>>68176 on the other hand, neither is absolute totalitarianism so no big deal.

How about these guys? Would it be possible to rebel against them? The only reason they were able to in the game was because the rebel movement was established before the plot.

>>68177 If you'd read any situationist theory whatsoever you'd realize that we absolutely do live in a totalitarian society and have little to no genuine direct agency over the course of our lives.

>>66886 What a ridiculously stupid observation. >Tabla Rasa exists and your entire personality is formed by state propaganda for or against, especially concerning US geopolitical allies and foes.

>>68263 Situationist theory is a psyop intended to demoralize subversive elements. Why else would it be allowed to exist?

>>68501 read Tiqqun or any of the other french neo-insurrectionary writers. Agamben as well. Situationist theory is decent but lacks an easy translation to modern day life

>>66823 >absolute totalitarianism? Let me guess, you do not live in Iran, China or Venezuela. If you want clear answers, you must say which government you want to subvert and to what. Wanting your country to submit to Islam and sharia is done by a set of political tools and violent acts, independentist movements by another and reducing the importance of the state by yet another. If you want a French or Polish style resistance, you need it completely decentralized and no one should know more than 3 other members. If you want a soviet revolution, you need agitators and for the state to have an enemy more scary than you, say, Germans, and you need that state to be so weak and ineffective that it will give you guns to fight Germans while it can't pay it's soldiers. >Has there in history ever been a resistance group that managed to thrive under complete repression? Yes, the controlled opposition. It's how you reconize them. Now you made me think of them: https://theculturetrip.com/europe/lithuania/articles/a-brief-history-of-the-forest-brothers/