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How can I escape the 9-5 work life? I have no energy left after 8 fuarrrking hours at work, not even counting commuting time. When I come home I just want to lie in my bed and I know I will have to go to sleep soon anyways since I have to do the same soykaf all over again tomorrow. It's like I only live on the weekends, and the weekends are often soykaf as well. Can't go NEET because I have to pay the fuarrrking bills somehow. Is this hell?

I work as a data engineer in a small startup (20 people) and today i woke up at 1PM, jerked off, did our daily team call, worked a little, then went to the gym, got back, worked a little more and now i'm here procrastinating, eating and thinking how i will solve a programming problem. I studied my ass off to finish a double major in mathematics and computer science, 1 internship and 4 years of research experience and now i pretty much can choose where i want to work, so i choosed the most chill company i've found.

>>60572 Also, you can reduce your standard of living and go to a really small city. I used to live in a city with a population of 40k, i could cross the whole city in a 40m walk. My mom worked as a receptionist, my grandma didn't worked and my grandpa and uncle were (are) mechanics. We lived very well, and our lives could have been better if they had a minimal personal finance education. They worked 9-5 but they could come back home at 12 to eat and take a nap until 13 or 14, and by 17:15 they were already at home.

post an ad on cl describing what you would like to do and your skills then don't act like a dinghus in the first 2 months then do whatever you want

FIRE? Basically, cut down all your expenses to the absolute minimum and put everything from your paycheck into an investment portfolio. It'll take quite some time, but eventually you'll have enough to retire and live off the interest, quite a while before the ordinary retirement age.

>>60571 When I was in your situation I went to the Barnes & Noble next door to my job. I picked-up rich dad poor dad; couldn't read it more than putting it back on the shelf and returning to work. It hurt too much. cut right to the bone of my life. Just that thirty minutes changed me. Quit work the next day. Was homeless at some point. Blindly pushed every-which-way until I got out of my country of birth. Looking back, it was easier than I thought at the time. It just comes down to being fed-up. If I could redo it, I would study being an electrician, save-up cash, and move. Hindsight and all. Good luck. Like the other lainon said, FIRE. End the end, you know yourself best. good luck. oh, and perhaps a daily bare bones journal to chronicle your thoughts, and advice you receive.

>>60571 > Can't go NEET because I have to pay the fuarrrking bills somehow. > Is this hell? Yes. It's called capitalism.

>>60575 That's interesting. I've lived in huge cities and you can easily get by without a car; in fact, a personal car is detriment to your quality of life. Everything is cheaper once you take the time to look around, only the rent will kill you. I grew up in a town 2-3 times the size of yours and it no longer has the advantages you pride yours on. Stores close and move to giant box stores further away and the public transit is complete ass. If you have a cheap place to live, you don't have a grocery or hardware store near it, or much else for that matter. And I lived in rural places which have certain wonderful advantages, none of them "convenience". A car is mandatory. If you need fire trucks or an ambulance it's gonna be a while too. A smaller town, one with an actual centre, is the one thing I've never tried. When I've visited them I noticed, the pub, drugstore, market, library, everything is just right there but a five minute walk takes half an hour anyway because all the neighbours know each other and the sidewalk is basically their facebook.

>>60590 Hurt durr bad capitalism. Give me a better solution than capitalism. Perhaps not in the USA variant but with reasonable state intervention for basic helath care and workers rights version. Socialism won't work ever so what is better in your opinion?

>>60605 we are post capitalism, we are in the stage after it where crystallized mono/oligopolies captured markets with regulations. Health care is a mess because the entire industry pharma, insurance, hospitals is corrupted. And the final nail is using people like >>60590 by telling them this is capitalism and its soykaf so you should demand something new like socialism to further fund the corruption. I.E. hospital cant take more money from you than you have but they can take more if we also force others to pay for you, hence we start advocating for mandatory health care to fleece society as a whole with overpriced fees and 100x overpriced meds made mandatory by contracts between insurance and pharma.

>>60605 The third position. See:@ National socialism, fascism, or Gaddafi's policy for reference. The state controls the mint (This means no national debt). The state loans the money. Usury/Interest is illegal. And so on.

>>60604 Maybe we never had many necessities but we have always found what we wanted in the local market. Maybe our advantage was that our city, besides being small, was the comercial center of the neighbour cities which were smaller, so every weekend everyone in the region would come over to sell stuff. For that reason, we could also find the services that we needed, such as medical treatment. We never had a proper library and cultural scene though, people there were quite stupid. Of course that it's not possible to find all the conveniences we have in a big city, but i don't need them anyway. >>60605 I can imagine some random peasant hundreds of years ago saying "hurr bad feudalism, give me a better solution than feudalism". >Socialism won't work ever so what is better in your opinion? Don't know dude. We can start thinking how we can change our current system so that we don't need to give our lives to work just to get by, maybe we shouldn't need to take huge debts to get a good education and therefore to be able to work, maybe we should have more free time to actually live. You don't need to become a communist.

>>60605 > Socialism won't work ever Except it did work. And don't tell me that it didn't Westerner, you don't know anything. I was born in socialist Czechoslovakia and it was the best part of my life before the capitalists made a coup and made our country into American colony. Now everything is soykaf.

>>60612 how old are you?

>>60571 Maybe the problem is that you're doing soykaf that you don't like? What would you like to do as your daily job? Why haven't you started doing this yet?

>>60614 I've been told this before, but no. I work for a startup as a backend dev were I earn a "lot of money" (for someone in the third world like me) and I work in Clojure, which is my favorite language. I still can't imagine being happy working for 8 hours on this, it's overwhelming. When I finish working there's no more daylight, almost no time left to enjoy my life. It's a loop of unhappiness and I don't see a good fix for it. Part-time jobs are almost unheard of in this industry.

>>60620 >Part-time jobs are almost unheard of in this industry. freelance is the dynamic hours option but dont take it as advice to do it as i dont know your situation. Friend did a year at wellknown corp (in our country) after graduation and went freelance right after cause he couldnt stand the 9-5 cycle.

>>60608 >The third position. the problem with the third position and any of these other ideologies like monarchy and socialism is that you have to have a good leader, otherwise the benefits get thrown out of the window, and democracy also has a similar problem, where you have to assume that the large parts of society aren't deranged schizos, voting against the basic interest and rights of a human being, of course you could have a system were you would encourage most of society to better themselfs and others, this would solve the problem with both democracy and the third position were you could pick the most fit ones to be leaders. >>60609 >Don't know dude. We can start thinking how we can change our current system so that we don't need to give our lives to work just to get by I started thinking on this and what if we instead of having something like money, Instead value the persons overall contribution to society, were you don't have to assume your worth by the amount of money you have, or something similar. Of course im just throwing darts at a dartboard and seeing what sticks.

>>60622 Money is a useful tool to allow efficient exchanges between people - i give you money, you do some work for me and then you spend your money with whatever you want. That money is used as a symbol of self-worth and that the main source of value for our lives comes from consumerism and productivity is due to capitalist propaganda, which needs people producing and consuming endlessly, be it a new iphone or the new marvel movie. Invariably, you will end up seeing that the source of our problem is indeed capitalism, even though it gave us the internet.

>>60628 fiat & fractional banking is the issue not capitalism. They print themselves money at 0% that they then lend as credit for 4%+ which means you work for them on the basis of them holding the printing monopoly. And if you dont do this you are priced out by those who do. The whole econ started going to soykaf from the day fiat stopped getting backed by gold and could be printed willy nilly. You cant expect any system to work fairly when some are privileged to ignore the rules entirely.

>>60571 Here's a not-so-secret secret for you OP. The more valuable skills you possess, the more money you can make and the less bullshit you have to put up with. Things like the pic you posted only happen at the lowest levels of employment, in jobs built for people who can't do any better.

>>60657 i hope that what I think that people like you deserve, you get, otherwise, if i'm wrong, let me get ten times worse

>>60589 >rich dad poor dad That book was bogus, it goes to really weird and really improbably scenarios to make its points >When I was penniless I just had to get someone to loan me $100,000 >When oil prices were rising, all I had to do was find some small oil firm that was trading are mere cents that was also just about to find a massive oil reserve >When I was 9 I tried to make counterfeit money >I spend all my money and then freak the fuarrrk out to pay my bills and taxes afterwards, it breeds motivation to make more money >Work for free at many different jobs to broaden your horizons, but also don't make diverse investments, put it all on black The only decent ideas in the book ultimately is just FIRE investing

>>60661 disclaimer: didnt read the book for your list i would say most is unrealistic but not impossible territory. Getting a loan you shouldn't get was possible, the housing bubble happened because banks were willing to give credit to people who shouldn't get it because they resold the credit with fake certs on how safe the creditors were and you could abuse their scam by claiming taking out credit for a house and then actually using it for something else as they wouldn't give out credit otherwise. Especially if you could pay it off not much risk to it. 9 year old trying to fake money - i think everyone considered that, im pretty sure we talked in elementary school about the issues of faking real money and why it was impossible. last point is also rather common sense if you wanna play investor - working in a biz gives you better understanding to evaluate if it will go up or down. Spread vs bet all on one is a matter of your information. Usually you spread because you dont know. You can bet all on one if you have the information advantage and thus can accurately predict how market will move, usually insider trading is illegal but there are rare occasions with loopholes.

>>60662 >Getting a loan you shouldn't get was possible, the housing bubble happened because banks were willing to give credit No no, he didn't get it from a bank, he discourages using banks because paying back the interest on loans is working for the bank rather than yourself, this was supposedly some dude he knew that was willing to give him $100,000 to play around with I think in exchange for paying back an extra $20,000 (totally different from a bank) but IIRC the story ends with him finding some wonder investment where the loaner rewards him with a $50,000 finder's fee for some real estate he was going to use the $100,000 to invest in. Maybe it's a truefax story, but this isn't financial self-help or advice for random people shopping in barnes and noble.

>>60662 >last point is also rather common sense if you wanna play investor - working in a biz gives you better understanding to evaluate if it will go up or down. Also should clarify this point in the book, that's actually not really the suggestion he is making, his personal anecdote backing this section is that he hung out in his Rich Dad's boardroom to hear business talk even if he didn't understand much of it, then he joined Xerox to learn marketing and then at some point he joined the Marines as a pilot to learn leadership skills, ultimately he advocates that people should at least take a course in marketing. That's what I mean by broadening one's horizons, he doesn't necessarily advocate learning about different industries for investment, actually he is fairly cold on investments in general and most of his examples are about flipping houses really. I personally see that as a missed opportunity for the reasons you mentioned, as a way to gain familiarity with different industries to get an idea of which ones are worth investing in.

>>60571 Either get an evening shift job if you don't want a 9-5 or buy lottery tickets. I also suggest buying one troy ounce of gold or platinum and holding it for at least 10 years. If you want a long term investment that will not be sold until 20 years from now, get silver while downward manipulation keeps the price affordable. Get troy ounces in the 10s per bar and some Britannia coins and hold for 20 years. Also, read up on agorism.

>>60658 People like him, such as myself, usually get what we're after because we work for it. That is the price paid. But I want to point out something incorrect that he said: >>60657 >The more valuable skills you possess, the more money you can make and the less bullshit you have to put up with. This is generally false. Not the money part, but the skills. Even running a company that involves dealing with clients means dealing with their trite bullshit and odd power struggles and newbies trying to "prove themselves". Not to mention dealing with your own elmployees trivial bullshit because they have an ego problem and want everything to be "theirs", and then theres the inconsistencies... Even if you aren't running the company and you're having to manage people, it gets absurd having to deal with pathetic losers who are more qualified than most people, but still don't have enough skill to keep a consistent streak going for more than 3 - 5 days at a time and would be better off being a "burrito artisan". fuarrrk, I hate lazy people who refuse to even do their job properly. They should be taken out and shot, butchered, fed to pigs and have their bones as bone meal to grow food for people who aren't incompetent. Dysgenics is in full effect with these self-absorbed losers who can't even fill out a simple document properly. Thankfully that's not really a problem I have to deal with anymore due to being fiscally responsible, enjoy being self-sufficient, and being able to retire before being 35.

>>60667 >Wah Wah fuarrrk you pay me Yes. Thats what the money is for. You to do your job properly. I don't want to be your friend, I don't need to know your life story (unless it will impact your ability to work, and I will gladly find a way to work around your schedule or issue you are having.) >Why I cant believe you would fire someone with three kids and they're alone and bla bla Dont care, a dozen more employees need you to do your job so they can do theirs and we can make enough money to pay everyone. The many > The one. You know how many times I've gone without pay so I can pay for everyone?

>>60667 Poor kid, was deprived of enough love during its infancy.

>>60667 ols soviet joke: boss pretends to pay, we pretend to work. In general people who are stuck in their job can only improve pay by working less for same pay. That's exactly what you see. If working harder is not rewarded then people will work obviously less. Also modern people are generally mentally fuarrrked into an artificial adhd state which drops productivity from the way they consume social media / internet in general. Focus has gone downhill dramatically.

>>60571 Just join the military or be a soldier if fortune or something

>>60669 Not at all. I have a very close and loving family. >>60670 Even when you reward people for working well, they make mistakes. You're right about modernity. It is a cesspool. Very few of these people are actual "people". Most of them are just reacting to stimuli all through life, stumbling aimlessly, irritated to be pulled out of automatic mode. It is depressing, but that's the kali yuga for you.

>>60672 >people make mistakes Oh no!

Funny how the thread starts soykafting itself up when the business owners, landlords and all the other scum of society starts showing up. I won't ever feel sympathy for any of you. I'm a worker, I always was and I always will be, I don't feel shame over the fact that you have to pay me.

>>60673 I don't think you're comprehending the degree of the mistakes I'm referring to. I'm clearly not talking about little mistakes that take a half a second to correct, I'm talking about the big mistakes, and the mistakes that people are not supposed to make when this is your profession. Recall the "dozen more employees who need you to do your job"? You're intentionally pulling it in an entirely different direction, but that is to be expected. It doesn't fit your narrative. >>60675 What? You shouldn't feel shame. Anyone who is reasonable likes people who do their job. It is great to find someone reliable. I have just had the misfortune of having to deal with people all over the place. From working a soykafty cash register to helping people who didn't know they have to plug their computers into the wall for it to turn on to people who think "make it pop" and "we need more sales" and "I know you have the next three months planned out, setup, and approved it but you need to throw it all away and redo it different, with a post-retro feel." You don't understand and rarely do people understand. With that being said, I don't want to waste too much time talking to retards who don't know anything. At least I've experienced every aspect of the disgusting hellscape that is capitalism, and the workers are just as exploitative and soykafty as the scumbag business owners who dock your pay based on your bathroom breaks. >>60571 To answer your question, learn to be self-sufficient on the things you spend most of your money on. I don't buy spices, I grow my own. I don't buy booze, I make my own. I quit bothering with expensive friends and going to the movies and going out to eat. I pirate games, music, movies and TV shows. You need more energy? You need to reduce your garbage-food intake, do exercise, take cold showers, follow a sleeping schedule, treat the weekends the same as weekdays, save money, buy a house, pay it off quick, save up more money for the expendures that you need, toss it all in a high yield interest savings account, stock up on several months worth of cheap, healthy foods. It isn't hard to solve, it's just hard to stick with it. Your tiredness problem goes away with a healthy diet and a little exercise. If you push the debt out, land a home, and have enough money to pay for electricity, water, food, and property taxes you don't need to work anymore. Good luck. Oh and try to be less negative in general.

> learn to be self-sufficient on the things you spend most of your money on. I don't buy spices, I grow my own how do you spend any significant amount on spices unless you grow saffron? All the regular things are cheap af. btw on your explanation on mistakes, i wouldn't call those mistakes. Mistakes implies the person can do the task but has a fail rate. Your examples are clueless clients who pay you because they don't know anything and need an expert. Vague clients are a common annoyance for designers but also the sole reason they pay you - if they knew how they wouldn't need you. Personally i bailed because i couldn't stand it either but i do believe it should be acknowledged that there wouldn't be as many customers without it.

>>60571 My parents are Christians and even fell for the Qanon soykaf, so I sarcastically tell them I'm fighting the Anti-Christ by being unemployed, and they often agree with me despite resenting it.

I know what you feel, OP. I only woke up from this zombie mode last year. I might re-post insights already shared by other lainons cause I just skimmed the thread. I'll get back to it later. Just wanted to share something in my short free time. In my last job(my problem didn't start here, I always had problems with 9-5 corporate life/school/college) I was only able to work using anti-depressants and stimulants. I could deal with it... for some time then the I felt the crush. I was barely sleeping, poorly eating or just eating thrash, along with the quarantine I was working from home I had and my project was slow as fuarrrk. I lost all my self-control, energy and stopped caring about the company I was working at. I left the company with mental burnout and only after feeling all that soykaf is what made me wake up to fuarrrking live. Not working and not studying I had time to recover, learn more about myself, what I really want in life and what I don't. Having that set on my mind. I had defined a certain meaning for my life - which is to achieve a dream along with other goals or just die trying - Some way to live that won't make me look back at my life when I get old and feel depressed - to be fair I was already feeling depressed about I was doing and did with my life during my mid 20s already. Dream big. Don't you be scared of the odds of pursuing your dreams. And if I happen to fail, there will be my 2nd dream to pursue, and so on. You will always achieve things when you are pursuing your highest dream/goal with your heart and mind because you are improving yourself every day to grab it. So I don't mind spending over 40 hours a week when I'm working for something I want to achieve or just something I love doing. Sometimes I have to do soykaf I don't like, but I need to do it in order to achieve what I want in life. The job I do give me money that I can use to achieve my own goals, so I don't have that antagonist view of it anymore, It's means to an end for me. I don't have much problem with my current job, but I'm open to jobs with decreased work hours so I can dedicate more of my time in the things I want. The only thing that makes me feel alive is to work on achieving my dreams, day after day. If I didn't have them, I would end up ending myself or just being constantly numb with medications just like I was doing during most of my lfe. I think waking up from the corporate-life is gonna be your first step to you be more mindful of what you gonna do with your life. >>60742 lol

>>60612 That's cute, calling me westerner without even knowing me. I come from Poland actually and even though I was born right at the end of previous system so i don't remember it much, all my family remembers it too good. Police hour, empty shelves, stealing everywhere, cant really go to countries others than eastern block, no perspectives if you didn't join the party. Complete dependence from Soviet union, literal occupation with their military in bases around the country. Corruption even more widespread than today. Really, sounds like a great time to be alive. They stopped our economy and growth for 40 years and completely destroyed peoples mentality, changing them into submissive bunch of workers who where just waiting for the government to serve them everything on the silver platter. My grandparents were building a house for over 10 years because the shortage of materials was so big. Even my grandmother who sometimes says it was a good time is aware that she says that mostly because she was young and life was ahead of her. So just stop whining that good times of just sitting around and getting stuff for free are over. Just a quick reminder that nothing is free, and if government is giving you something probably you paid for it earlier. Or someone else have but definitely not the government

>>60762 Its everyone's own job to deal with it and make their own way. We can't talk just about capitalism because the system we have in Poland is different than the system in the states for example. And now Polish government gets more and more socialistic with stupid investments and giving away more money "to help people" and it's quite clear that its destroying economy. If you give people free stuff most of them will think what's the point of working then and trying to make something by myself? And about Russian people liking the past. A ton of people in Russia are saying that Stalin was a great leader and a good man. A guy who murdered millions of people, his own citizens, starved them, is responsible for introducing unimaginable terror and scientific regression. So I wouldn't trust the Russian's opinion too much. I saw and intrervies where people were saying stuff like maybe there was nothing to eat, and all the coutryside was just a muddy hellhole without electricity and running water, maybe people were being murdered and tortured by the secret police but at least we were the world empire. In my opinion this is the example of broken mentality.

>>60744 Perhaps it's a Polish thing because you've done alright with capitalism, because my Russian relatives all rather liked communism. Then you have nations like Moldova where, yikes, the end of communism has not served them well.

>>60763 >Its everyone's own job to deal with it and make their own way. That's not really a practical idea when the reality of capitalism is that someone "winning" a decent way of life results in someone else's loss. For example, you can't have successful landlords AND everyone having the ability to own their own home, there just isn't enough housing when people are snapping up property to rent and driving prices up out of reach of employed people. What you're really asking of people is not "make their own way", it's asking them to accept living in soykaf through no fault of their own so a minority of society can accumulate an excess, because seeing people with Lamborghinis and mansions "proves" what a good system capitalism is. You're asking people to support capitalism for the benefit of others building wealthy through property ownership rather than work, a much more charitable notion than socialism is. >USSR had brief periods of unrest where some people died for political reasons It's an unfortunate part of revolution, but nobody claims that France is a soykaf country for having revolutions where a lot of people died, likewise with the US and their revolution and then Civil War. >Back in the past, people didn't have it as nice in the countryside That was true for all of history prior to the USSR, but it was a situation that was improving all the time and I doubt it is now. As with so many urbanised nations it was easier for people to just move into cities that were growing in size and opportunities and it was the same in the USSR.

Repeat with me: >communism is not about giving people free stuff >communism is not about giving people free stuff >communism is not about giving people free stuff >communism is not about giving people free stuff >communism is not about giving people free stuff >communism is not about giving people free stuff >communism is not about giving people free stuff >communism is not about giving people free stuff >communism is not about giving people free stuff

>>60762 There are psychological/spiritual differences between these countries. Germany and Russia are much more suited to communism; Poland through Catholicism and its weird aristocratic-libertarian tradition is more prone to decentralised hierarchies not unlike the US. Also for Poland communism came in the form of foreign occupation by its historical enemy. There were also good things in that time, but they were all of the form of traditional things not yet touched by communism but later destroyed by capitalism. If communism persisted for longer it would have destroyed them also: good locally grown food, close communities, religion, independent culture. Capitalism and communism are two sides of the same coin that promote materialism to convert humans into soulless homogenous machines that can be used to power a larger state.

>>60744 > I come from Poland actually That explains a lot, lol > 1944: Oh no, ze Germans has turned us into a General Governorate, WE RIOT > 2022: Oh yes, ze Americans has turned us into their collony, please use my butthole even more, your big D is still not deep enough Polacks are objectively one of the races with the lowest IQ there is. Around Polacks never relax.

>>60766 Catolicism is actually very compatible with Communism. What Catolicism isn't compatible with is Capitalism. Catolicism literally considers many of the core economic mechanisms of Capitalism as sinful. But Polacks are not smart enought to see that they are supporting a deeply sinful system. They are unthinking sheep that believe anything that their satanic American masters tell them to believe.

>>60744 > And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, and said unto them: It is written, my house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves. >  Matthew 21:12–13 > And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves: Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. >  John 2:15–16 Have a picture of Jesus beating and whipping capitalists.

>>60768 Well, when you think about it, the United States has had centuries of practice on influencing elections to ensure what the powerful wants they get while gaslighting the population that it’s what they voted for (or didn’t vote hard enough against), so for a brand new democracy like Poland in 1990 where no one had money and no one had experienced elections in decades if at all, winning the election to install a US puppet would have been as simple as dumping a few million into their preferred candidate’s campaign for them to completely monopolise the political landscape. They’d be the only ones to afford all the TV slots, every poster, every radio broadcast, independents wouldn’t have a chance to compete with that level of public awareness. You only need to win the first election as well, after they set a precedent that only pro-western ideas and allegiances are acceptable you can more or less just let democracy continue as a self-regulating puppet

>>60769 og christianity was against interest rates from money lenders aka growing debt, not capitalism. Shit you should have had this in history, jews took over banking cause christians were forbidden to do it.

>>60771 That’s still usury and usury is effectively synonymous with property ownership.

>>60744 >Really, sounds like a great time to be alive. They stopped our economy and growth for 40 years and completely destroyed peoples mentality, changing them into submissive bunch of workers who where just waiting for the government to serve them everything on the silver platter. That's Polish problem. Not because of some -ism. Polaks essentially for century had some scapegoat to blame on their state of life. It changed from EBIL RUSKIS, EBIL JEWS, EBIL COMMUNIST, EBIL EU to whatever will come next. It's essentially a culture that has a very big victim mentallity, yet are the biggest bootlickers too. It's such a weird paradox. I'm Polish too, and I know Poles which complain, IN A NATION WHERE THEY ARE FOREIGN, about immigrants, while they themselves essentially are bums who take every order that comes their way, talk like some crackhead and drink their live away. They somehow can be extremely racist while not realizing most westeners see them as brutes doing terrible jobs for terrible pay. The whole modern Polish culture sadly is a joke, and I won't change my opinon about it till something changes.

>>60770 Don't forget the poland event where they put every politician on a plane and it crashed killing them all. Meanwhile even midtier corps have rules to never put leadership in same plane. Nothing to see here friends.

>>60773 >and I know Poles which complain, IN A NATION WHERE THEY ARE FOREIGN, about immigrants Justified, they cause less issues than other groups so they have reason to complain when their host country ships in trash and gives them even more free soykaf. Asians&slavs get the worst treatment as immigrants while causing least issues. Meanwhile state protects the other types and fires even cops who speak out about it. Right now im hearing complains from immigrant friends also cause they apparently housing ukraine refugees in our capital at 6k rent while our own immigrant asses got hoarded in cheap shacks in middle of nowhere. Fairness in treatment is a natural expectation that we see regularly betrayed.

>>60775 >Don’t like communism, life isn’t fair and shouldn’t be expected to be so. That being said, if I’m exporting myself as cheap labour to a country that toppled my former communist government, then I want the same treatment as the refugees from Ukraine who are offered expensive homes by the local government as a publicity stunt to demonstrate how virtuous they are compared to Russia. Those are pretty different situations though. You’re not both just immigrants, the only thing in common a polish migrant has with a Ukrainian refugee is they’d both end up in a nation like the UK that previously tried to (successfully) destroy both countries to piss off Russia. Poland accepted capitalism and being in NATO without a fight, in Ukraine there’s the need to prove that NATO and reliance on the west is what’s best for them. Rest assured though, when the war is over in Ukraine those politically beneficial refugees will find themselves working on farms picking fruit for 13p an hour and blamed for driving down wages along with the rest of the immigrants here.

>>60768 Catholicism is compatible with a free-market economy based around personal relationships and trust instead of debt. Something more similar to the economy in the middle east, where Islam also forbids usury. It is most definitely not compatible with communism, which attempts to place the parasitic state as the intermediary between personal relationships, and as the object of spiritual worship. The spiritual type of the catholic strives upwards towards heaven and so differences in ability between humans are made apparent and celebrated. This is the opposite of the grovelling egalitarianism of communism, which crushes everyone back into the dirt.

>>60778 Always astounded about how frequently communism gets mentioned on chans and it’s almost always by people who have no idea what it is.

>>60781 I feel the same when people try and talk about Christianity and Catholicism myself.

>>60782 Nice posters. Are they from somewhere?

>>60783 From the great depression I think. The Catholic Worker movement still exists though.

> Is this hell? Sure it is. Life is like kicking dead whales down the beach, you know. So just keep in mind that you can always end yourself if things go too bad. I woulda done that already if I were you, to be honest.

>>60778 > It is most definitely not compatible with communism, which attempts to place the parasitic state as the intermediary between personal relationships, and as the object of spiritual worship. > The spiritual type of the catholic strives upwards towards heaven and so differences in ability between humans are made apparent and celebrated. That's a lot of words that mean nothing. This is a typical "look at me, I am a philosopher" type of post. You obviously have no actual arguments why catolicism can't be compatible with comunism and so you write some nonsense, try to obscure the lack of meaning by using fancy words and hope that nobody will notice.

>>60778 I assume that by "celebrating the differences in people's abilities" is just fancy speak for "some people are just better than others bro", in other words "some people deserve to be paid more than others". Now believe it or not, but such difference would exist even in communism. Communism is not about making everybody's pay exactly the same. That was never the point, despite what p*l is trying to tell you. Of course if you have no idea what communism really is and your only understanding of it comes from p*l, then I can see why would you think that. Yes, people deserve to be paid differently depending on their skills, ammount of work, etc. ...Who doesn't deserve to get paid at all though are the so called "bourgeoise", the people who own the means of production and therefore can extract the surplus value from other people's work. And if you are one of those poeple who believe that owning a capital is somehow "work", because you have to deal with risks or whatever, and so these rich a**holes are justified in what they are doing, then you go to "celebrate the differences" to hell.

>>60799 >>60801 Communism is a biological disease that destroys all that is beautiful and strong in man to feed the growing state. Go visit the countries ravaged by it and look at the sheer ugliness it has left behind, the scar across peoples souls and nations cultures. Understand first the real cost of what you are preaching - what parts of human experience and life are ignored by your materialist ideology, what is left to rot as a monster of concrete and bureaucracy is brought into existence.

>>60805 A comment filled with feelings with no arguments to be found. Not surprising given the quality of the posts in this thread, which, by the way, has nothing to do with this silly "gommunism vs crapitalism" fight going on. Even less so because no one is: - defining capitalism - defining communism - giving a fair and comprehensive list of pros and cons of each system - having a civil discussion about it, even making a new thread Frankly, I'm disappointed with both the mods who are not deleting this nonsense and the posters who are going against the core philosophy of Lainchan (which isn't supposed to be a carbon copy of 4chan).

>>60805 My country saw the most hope, peace and prosperity during its socialist era than it has in its entire history and most certainly after the fall of the socialist bloc. My nation's "soul" and "culture" was ravaged not by socialists, but by countless religious and nationalist groups that sprung up and immediately went at each other's throats.

>>60805 >Communism is a biological disease that destroys all that is beautiful and strong in man to feed the growing state. No, the purpose of communism is to end class inequalities and class exploitation. That's all, everything else is a distortion of its original purpose.

>>60810 And the bourgeoisie isn't you who may own a small gym or whatever. If you don't own a bank and can't pay politicians to vote projects for you, than you aren't a member of the bourgeoisie, you're just another pathetic peasant.

>>60811 You do realize that in Marxist literature there's a term for exactly that right? It's called "petit bourgeoisie". Also, it's not that the individuals that conform the bourgeoisie are evil themselves, sure some are but that has never been "the point". The point is that the system itself puts everyone into separate roles depending on their relation to the means of production. Those relationships have deep consequences in reproducing the system and, eventually, its own demise.

>>60808 >my country which is? Don't tell me it's russia lol

>>60812 >>60811 >>60810 What is hilarious that bourgeoisie is from late 1700s france regarding hierarchy. >First estate The clergy >Second estate Nobles >Third estate Peasants and Bourgeoisie (The commoners) Why is this funny to me? Because you have clergy and nobles making the commoners fight. Go figure, a tale as old as time itself. On a side note, someone told me that DIY and self-suffiency is "bourgie". That's pretty funny, too. I don't care for marxists/commies/etc.

>>60807 It’s the logical conclusion of such a question like “how do I escape the rat race”, inevitably you’re going to hit the reality that, by design, you’re not supposed to escape the rat race even if there isn’t anything directly banning it from happening. At that point the discussion is naturally going to turn to discussing alternative systems to capitalism, where communism is usually brought up first usually by pro-capitalism anons who want to accuse everyone of wanting free soykaf, if they don’t want to spend the rest of their lives working their bollocks off making someone else rich. At that point people who at least understand what communism or socialism is will feel compelled to correct such an idea, even if they don’t especially support socialism or communism.

>>60807 Arguments and definitions are for petty souls. Truth arises first in perception and is recognized through the emotional senses. There is no fair list of pros and cons of the various manifestations of evil; the only appropriate response is resistance. >>60808 lol then your country was a basket case to begin with and should remain a vassal of some hopefully benevolent real country. >>60822 There is even less hope of escaping the rat race in communism. At best it is more relaxing because there is no chance to succeed, so you can dick around at the state-run company, get paid meagerly, and drink some home-brewed alcohol with your mates after. Good luck ever regaining your 9-5 hours though without being gulaged. >>60571 OP here is a book that might be helpful for getting ideas of how to escape the rat race. Overall a mix of reducing expenses as much as possible while generating uncorrelated income streams, so that one can escape the initial pressure to survive and have time to create the life you want.

>>60824 >There is even less hope of escaping the rat race in communism. That's wrong, but presumably if you cared then you would have actually read about communist theory before venturing an opinion on it. You want to believe you can hack capitalism and escape the rat race, so why get rid of it, right?

>>60824 Normally i would post a pepe for you but it seems that this isn't how things works here at lain.

>>60826 Who would ever care to read about communist theory after the big failures? Anyway, authoritarian regimes are not good for individual development, so I'll dodge that bullet thank you.

>>60832 Because like capitalism, communism can be implemented in different ways, if you *had* read the theory you'd be able to understand why communist regimes of old were the way they were, but more importantly why communism in the 21st century doesn't need to be the way it was in the USSR. Besides, capitalism is more authoritarian anyway.

>>60859 That is no argument. Instead of telling us why your claims are true, you said "if only you'd read the theory, you'd know", I wonder, do you keep from actually providing the argument because you know it won't stand to scrutiny? Are you pointing me to read the propaganda so I can be properly indoctrinated? As I saod, who would care to read the theory that repeatedly provided us with one of the absolute worst states in recent history? >this time it would be different! Yeah, that's all you keep saying, I'm sure the dommunists of the past century also thought it'd all go rosey. For a more specific, less meta argument, controlled economies have repeatedly shown their inefficacy, and it'snot hard to see why, being the economy so complex and at such a scale that no central authority (especially not a bureaucracy!) can hope to understand it, let alone manage it.

>>60805 So your only argument against communism are your feelings about how ineffective and bureaucratic the socialist countries of the past have been... Okay, I'll still take ineffective and bureaucratic over the satanic capitalism any time though.

>>60872 >Are you pointing me to read the propaganda so I can be properly indoctrinated? No? It's just that this isn't a political board and it's not my job to educate you anyway, you said something that is wrong about a system you've tacitly admitted you know nothing about and you're not interested in learning about anyway. So why would I waste anyone's time? You want to remain ignorant but project that on to me like it's my fault you don't know soykaf about communism, fine. I've long since grown out of 4chan-style political soykafposts and needing to argue my case to someone who sounds almost proud of their ignorance on the subject.

>>60875 Hear the modests priests I bring, whos harkening always let us sing. That let us free our tightest wasteband--let's us fertilise our own land! Spunked entire nations from one phallus. Spunked the vegetation into being. SPILLED THE SUPER SEED INTO THE ONE DAY SUPERCEDED EARTH

>>60876 >you're not interested in learning about anyway >almost proud of their ignorance on the subject. Starting with the assumptions already? nice. If I am spending my time talking about the subject, it's because I'm interested in it enough to want to get some feedback. Wouldn't that make more sense than whatever model of behaviour you seem to hold (which ultimately only speaks about yourself, you didn't seem to "grow out" of anything you're already implying you used to engage in.) But you're right, it's my bad to think that I could get any meaningful feedback from a lainchan conversation, we all know how that always turns out. lol. I would read the theory, if you only managed to spark an interest by showing me why I'm wrong, instead of just keep telling me I'm wrong. Protip: that's absolutely no way to make a case for your stance in any matter, you're only harming your position that way. Again, I would read the theory, if I had any evidence that communism is worth my attention, do you know how many books I have open atm? I'm not calling myself a sort of intellekchual but I simply cannot know everything, and you argue from the position that I should, beforehand, or else I shouldn't be inquiring about the matter; again, you're not helping your case. You've so far successed in keeping the conversation on a meta level instead of taking it from the specific argument I gave. Again? Communist countries are characterized by a controlled economy that always seem to lead to disaster and famine, and an iron-fist authoritarian states that work hard to keep their control and their subjects from learning about the rest of the world, apparently in fear that they'll see the other systems as a better option both in the material quality of life and in the matter personal freedom. >no it's not!!! Ok. So you keep telling me. I guess everybody should read the communist manifesto so they know, then give communism a chance despite past evidence, because you're not going to provide any arguments, right? Ain't gonna happen that way, son. Hell, you even failed to point to any resource on communjst theory. 1/10.

>>60877 > Hear the modests priests I bring, whos harkening always let us sing. CORRECTION: Hear the modests' priests I bring, who's harkening always let us sing. > That let us free our tightest wasteband--let's us fertilise our own land! CORRECTION: That let Ŭira free our tightest wasteband<=>let Nira μs.o. fertilise our own land! > Spunked entire nations from one phallus. CORRECTION: Splunk'd entire nations from one being's secret'es. > Spunked the vegetation into being. CORRECTION: Splunk'd wilde into Borse genome. >>60877 DOUBLE TAKE: DOUBLE-OTD : Splunk'd wilde into Borse leylines. \\endtl;dr > SPILLED THE SUPER SEED CORRECTION: SPILLED SUPER STORY thank Eliza ZD > INTO THE ONE DAY CORRECTION: S.O. THAT ONE DAY > SUPERCEDED EARTH CORRECTION: TERRANITY BECOMES.

P.S. No.60881 transliterates toward such: Six => Sin (esperanto)

This guy is a troll, or just plain stupid, why waste your time trying to convince him of anything? It would be easier and more meaningful to convince OP that communism is actually true since he is living first hand the crappy life capitalism produces.

>>60879 >I would read the theory >Again, I would read the theory But you haven't, why do you feel entitled to my time if you haven't already spent your own time reading the theory? You're asking me to explain/debate you on something you can't be bothered to look up yourself before talking about it. And now you're getting angry, writing entire poems like this to me because of my unwillingness to waste time on you as it most certainly would be. This is just arrogance, you wouldn't make a random incorrect statement about quantum physics and then demand that a quantum physicist spend his time arguing with you about why you're incorrect when you've admitted you're not at all educated in quantum physics in the first place. You need to get over yourself lain, you're not worth my attention.

>>60897 By that logic, why even bother defend a position if you're not going to go through with it. IMRITEURWONG doesn't make you right.

>>60898 You're not presenting anything I'd need to defend, I'd need to defend a critique of the theory which you can't do because you don't know any of it.

>>60879 > Communist countries are characterized by... There was no such a thing as "communist countries". You probably mean socialist countries, but I'm not surprised that you don't know the difference. > controlled economy that always seem to lead to disaster and famine If you don't count famines caused by war or total economic isolation (see DPRK), then there has been literally only ONE case of famine caused by a bad management by the government in socialist countries. I like how you love to pretend that it is something that happens every time, while using bad examples of countries ruined by sanctions (DPRK, Venezuela,..). No it's not communists who are responsible for the misery of the people in these countries. The American capitalists are responsible for it, because it was the who brought about these sanctions. I also love how you ignore the historical cases of famine in capitalist countries. You could actually probably make a longer list of famines in capitalist countries than famines in socialist countries. > and an iron-fist authoritarian states that work hard to keep their control and their subjects from learning about the rest of the world, apparently in fear that they'll see the other systems as a better option both in the material quality of life and in the matter personal freedom That's pure fantasy based on your grandpa's rambling about how he wanted to watch Rambo in a movie theater, but the "evil communist government" has derezzed the movie. First of all your definition of "better quality of life" is heavily based on the capitalist perspective. It's important to note that what one's definition of "quality of life" is. For capitalists the "better quality of life" means people having access to anything they WANT, (if they can pay for it), in other words to make the demand as wide as possible and the supply to keep up with the demand. For a socialist the "better quality of life" means that ALL the people have easier access to anything they NEED. In other words to focus on producing essential items of daily life use for as wide group of people as possible. So by socialist definition the quality of life was actually better in socialist countries. Of course by your definition it was better in capitalist countries, but that is only because you are using the capitalist definition of it in the first place. Unfortunately the western agents have managed to convince a large percentage of the population in socialist countries that they should subscribe to the capitalist definition of the term in order to turn them against their governments. Unfortunately most people are dumb. So in this context it makes sense to try to limit the western influence among your people. Also there has been more to the western media censorship than this. Other factors included limiting media that have been insulting towards the countries of the East, trying to prioritize their own local media production (by the way, this was done in capitalist countries too, look at "Turkish Star Wars), etc. So it was also about national pride, than just limiting the western influence.

>>60920 >There was no such a thing as "communist countries". You probably mean socialist countries, Countries with a communist economy. Wasn't the USSR a group of countries governed by communist parties? PRC, NK, Venezuela, and Cuba, afaik, were/are all countries which implemented a communist economy. >then there has been literally only ONE case of famine caused by a bad management by the government in socialist countries That's fair, I really just said famine to spice it up lol, and because china is a very strong case for communist mismanagement. The fact that an eecono y can be mismanaged by stupid policy in such a spectacular way demonstrates how the single point of failure that controlled economy represents is a big vulnerability. >No it's not communists who are responsible for the misery of the people in these countries. The American capitalists are responsible for it, because it was the who brought about these sanctions People love to blame the evil empire for the lack of international trade therefore the country lacks the reources for people to have a quality of life. But I believe that generally, countries should not depend on international trade in order to thrive. Case in point, look at where the world is now, that countries all depend on everything from everywhere because they care more about petrodollar than about having a resilient, self-reliant economy. A country's resources should be enough (provided the country doesn't go all out on one single export product at the expense of just about every other goods the population may need) to provide for their citizens for them to have a gold living. >That's pure fantasy based on your grandpa's rambling about how he wanted to watch Rambo in a movie theater, but the "evil communist government" has derezzed the movie. First of all your definition of "better quality of life" is heavily based on the capitalist perspective You're the one making fantasies. I never even mentioned capitalism, it's about as bad as communism in many fronts. You're right about it causing the worst famines and inequality gap. That said, I am talking about how a controlled economy, as opposed to a free market (not necessarily a capitalist one) is ineffective as fuarrrk to motivate parties to allocate scarce resources in a meaningful way, because there is a huge bureaucracy fixed on a price that ignores the ever changing shifts in demand and supply guiding adjusting people's needs of a product, leading to tonnes of food abandoned here while elsewhere there are people starving. Only after socialist economies stop trying to control the econo yand adopt free markets do they start doing better: China a case in point. >For capitalists the "better quality of life" means people having access to anything they WANT >For a socialist the "better quality of life" means that ALL the people have easier access to anything they NEED. As I said, I never meant to defend capitalism (are you actually the kind that thinks there's only Capitalism and Communism and nothing more?), the quality of life in capitalist countries is at least now in a steady decline and getting worse than ever because of just that artificial demand. But socialist economies never much managed to solve the problem of destitution, and in some cases made it much worse. Are you really suggesting that China, Soviet Russia, NK, Venezuela and Cuba do not have iron-fist authoritarian regimes?

>>60928 > Countries with a communist economy. Wasn't the USSR a group of countries governed by communist parties? PRC, NK, Venezuela, and Cuba, afaik, were/are all countries which implemented a communist economy. It's socialist economy. If you were older you would know that it used to be called "real socialism". Communism is not an economic model, but a vision of a classless society that socialism strives towards. This is exactly why the other anons beg you to read the theroy, because you are seriously confused about the meaning of all these terms. > The fact that an eecono y can be mismanaged by stupid policy in such a spectacular way demonstrates how the single point of failure that controlled economy represents is a big vulnerability. And you think this can't happen in capitalism? I think you are going to be very surprised VERY SOON. > But I believe that generally, countries should not depend on international trade in order to thrive. Case in point, look at where the world is now, that countries all depend on everything from everywhere because they care more about petrodollar than about having a resilient, self-reliant economy. A country's resources should be enough (provided the country doesn't go all out on one single export product at the expense of just about every other goods the population may need) to provide for their citizens for them to have a gold living. That's funny, because that's exactly ideology of Juche, the ideology of North Korea. To think that you spend time arguing against communism online while you are literally ideologically identical to the great Kim Il-sung is hilarious. You are literally a communist bro, you just follow the Korean branch of communism instead of the more mainstream european Marxist one. > as opposed to a free market (not necessarily a capitalist one) Are you trolling me right now? What the hell is non-capitalist free market economy? How would that work? What does it even mean? You can't just glance over this. This requires an explanation. I hope you have some actual explanation with some good example to demonstarte what you mean by "non-capitalist free market economy" (including an explanation how exactly it isn't capitalism) and how would it work. I hope I won't get just one of those nonsense posts à la "look at this 'third way' economic model, it's totally not capitalism, because we have ended the class struggle by unifying the people under nationalistic ideals". Don't even get me started on fascism. That would be a loooong debate. There is literally nobody who would understand fascism less than modern fascists (ESPECIALLY the American ones). Every time I read a post about fascism from some American kid I cringe so hard that I my life signs start to fail. > are you actually the kind that thinks there's only Capitalism and Communism and nothing more? Ugh, actually yes, that's pretty much it. Unless you want to go back to Feudalism or something. What else is there? Please don't tell me that you are one of those "third way economy" people. There is no third way economy. Fascism DOES NOT have its own economic model. It always just borrows from the other two (capitalism and socialism) and mixes them up. Usually the result is that fascism is economically not so different from a regular "social democracy"... just minus the democracy, lol

>>60928 > Are you really suggesting that China, Soviet Russia, NK, Venezuela and Cuba do not have iron-fist authoritarian regimes? No, I'm not suggesting that. I just don't think there is anything wrong with that...

>>60930 What does "iron-fist authoritarian" mean anyway? All societies have stuff it considers harmful to its existence and use its authority to squash said stuff. The main difference here between AES countries and capitalist countries is whose authority is being used to protect the status quo? In AES nations it's the government and police, usually opposing underground anti-communist movements which are almost certainly in contact with organisations like the CIA if not outright funded and organised by them, so you can kind of expect their suppression to be within the remit of government agencies as a part of protecting national security. But this obviously also exists in capitalist nations to protect capitalism from anti-capitalist movements that also are presumed to be, or certainly treated as, subservient to external forces. In the US the FBI handles this for example and we can see a good example with Edward Snowden, a person just whistleblowing as is supposedly his right in a free country, being treated as a foreign agent and is already sentenced to death should the US state capture him. But under capitalism you have another form of authority, those who possess the all mighty capital, they control the media and most platforms for discussion and expression to only broadcast what is profitable for them. Worse than that, they control people's means to survive and they can harshly shut down any movement that threatens their profits, like unionising. Employed capitalists (as paradoxical as that is) love to brag about how they get to choose where they work (they don't, they're free to request work) and they barter for their wages (it will always be less than they make the business), but any one of their bosses could be more iron-fisted than Stalin is popularly believed to have been, but because they've merely only have the means of production in their possession rather than a state (big difference between that and corporations btw) this is treated as being free and fair. Why?

>>60932 the state uses corps as proxies in west. Gov has to provide free speech but make the new social plaza corp owned and you have free reign while the npcs repeat "its a private biz" like a mantra. Meanwhile the corp factually gets paid for it and also has to follow legislation limiting speech. Illegal international soykaf is also generally handled like this, you have proxy corps that can act as fall guys. Often its not even fall guys - you cant call it punishment when the fines are lower than profits, its just taxation while claiming you totally punished said bad behaviour.

>>60920 > then there has been literally only ONE case of famine caused by a bad management by the government in socialist countries you forgot holodomor retard

>>60933 Yeah for sure and that's ultimately why Communism gets blamed for deaths and claimed that it can only work by literally using bodies as fuel for planned economies, but capitalism maintains a clean record despite really having been responsible for so many more deaths because it was always just a greedy business owner, war hawk president or bad luck as the reason people died in the millions in imperial wars, industrial accidents, famines and droughts, shootings in banana republics, pro-west revolutions in resource rich lands, poisonings by pollution and waste, effects of global warming, etc.

>>60934 Prove famines never existed in Ukraine before communism.

>>60934 >Communsim bad because it kills people! >"Look at this quasi-fascist quote someone who dedicated his life to killing people in poor countries said, so cool!" Questionable intentions

>>60936 >literally the bread basket of europe >famine happened because communists took all the food from farmers to crush any resistance to the central government

>>60937 communism bad because communists kill innocent people. communists are not innocent because of above. understand, comrade?

>>60938 That doesn't prove famines didn't exist in Ukraine prior to communism and that therefore it was the fault of communism. The US has a soykaf load of food wastage and yet many hungry people or people subsisting on minimal nutrition diets, so being the "bread basket of Europe" doesn't mean dick if it was never going to the people who need it.

>>60937 ah, but you see, it is okay for me to kill you because you are evil. You are evil because you think it is okay to kill me, which is unjust and barbaric.

>>60939 >How dare you subhumans kill rich plantation owners! You deserve to die! That's probably why Che Guevara is known and respected around the world, while Ganowicz is literally only known amongst impotent anti-Communist edgelords who like to make helicopter jokes.

>>60942 only reason che guevera is known is because some capitalist made a lot of money selling shirts with his face to dumbass college students.

>>60943 Putting the horse before the cart there lain, Che's story had to be inspiring for there to be any money in putting his face on a shirt.

>>60940 You're missing the point about the food being taken away by force first. Regardless of whether bandits causing famine pre-exist communism in Ukraine, that doesn't exist communist banditry causing famine in Ukraine. The historicity of the events I have no clue about, my memory is very spotty.

>An other shizo communism vs capitalism thread

>>60945 The food was already taken by force by landowners from the people working the land, the only reason anyone cares about the holodomor and not any previous famines in the area is because it was the poor landowners losing out this time (after they burned grain and slaughtered livestock, because if they can't have it then no one can) instead of just the regular peasants as usual. No one cares when peasants die in famines, that's to be expected. Sympathy for landlords and even going so far as calling a famine by a special name and declaring it a genocide because it affected them, is incredibly classist.

>>60941 It's funny because anti-communism inevitably ends up supporting pro-western installed dictators like Mobutu or Pinochet who ended up killing a soykaf load of people themselves. So on top of talking like a fascist Ganowicz was committed to gunning down poor people in the Congo to help secure the position of a murderous dictator. So what was the point? Surely you have to forfeit any claim to anti-communism on the grounds of conscience if you're like "Mobutu yes! Thomas Sankara no!"

>>60946 I know right? Escaping the grind of work is just as much a concern for communards as it is for capitalismos. It will be a fundamental of life as long as society is industrialized in nature, arguably as long as materialism is the dominant ideology.

>>60941 You're evil because you're a sad sack with absolutely no taste in fashy agitpro. Your kind should be tickled until cry - now just you try and talk your way out of this one. >inb4 but you don't have good taste in fashy agitpro either I know, this is an escape 9-5 dread thread. I don't care about the political talk, it's not even humorous.

Getting things back on topic anyway, I think the issue is that people who are most desperate to leave the 9-5 are those who hate their jobs and are physically drained by it. Ironically, leaving the 9-5 is more likely for people who enjoy their job and >A. Will likely forge passive or self-employed income from the work they're already doing and experienced in, just on their own terms >B. Not be totally drained at the end of the day and therefore unable to spend time improving their craft and monetising it by starting a business So perhaps a good place to start is quitting the job you despise and getting one in something you hate less, or actually like, even if it means taking a financial hit and needing to downsize temporarily while you get skilled at it build a business.

>>60951 If you had the drive to develop a biz you could do a job with massive downtime where you can get away working on your own thing. Guard for example, they often just have one for legal reasons. So nobody cares what you really do. The difficulty is getting such a job because lazy jobs are coveted.

>>60929 >>60946 > capitalism a methodology involving what requires wage labour to create. ( making things to make things ) > communism experimentation with social systems, often documenting resilience. > Please don't tell me > you are one of those > "third way economy" people. What my fam intends to say goes like this: " machines can't decide for humans what kind of economy to have " If you find crypto-fascism appealing , you still won't have decided on an economy , because machine conceptions of currency , presumes one pursues friends or family , making anonymity always antagonistic ( opposite to most economic systems ) .

be born to billionaire parents for the rest of us proles, the optimal goal is to get a decent paying, low-stress job where you don't do that much. This will maximize your free time while also avoiding stress from not having money. And you can FIRE through this method if the world economy doesn't collapse. t. going to grad school so I can become a statistician for the federal government. I just want a nice, chill and unambitious job so I can focus on my real passions and activism more.

>>60572 How do you know how chill its going to be before signing a contract though? Would love such a position, I'm well trained and thus have a lot of choice too but somehow I ended up at an exhausting job

>>61073 You have to know someone personally to get that kind of job, so they'll tell you.

>>60875 Almost deleted, but saved!

>>60612 >when my parents and my grandparents used to protest to overthrow communism they were doing so wrongly because now they have grievances Lmao, okay How about you stop waiting for papa state to organize your life?

>>60612 >I was born in socialist Czechoslovakia and it was the best part of my life before the capitalists made a coup and made our country into American colony. Your anecdote fails to demonstrate how the good part of your childhood was because of "socialism" and the bad part was because of "capitalism". You were happy on a day when there was a full moon therefor full moons are better. Like wtf are you doing.

>>60929 >The fact that an economy can be mismanaged by stupid policy in such a spectacular way demonstrates how the single point of failure that controlled economy represents is a big vulnerability. >And you think this can't happen in capitalism? Capitalism is not supposed to be "managed", it's supposed to be an autonomous self-correcting distributed system. As long as we have government using central banks to try to centrally plan the economy via manipulating interest rates then we don't have capitalism. >This is exactly why the other anons beg you to read the theroy, because you are seriously confused about the meaning of all these terms. Because you've made so much effort to understand capitalist theory. Name one non-marxist book you've read. You guys are exactly like those fundamentalists who tell biologist to "just read the bible". >>60875 >So your only argument against communism are your feelings about how ineffective and bureaucratic the socialist countries of the past have been... No, that's his argument for why it's not worth his time to read deeply into communist theory. If humanity has attempted some form of socialism on multiple occasions and every single time it resulted in genocide, famine, grinding poverty and general suffering then he's got a fuarrrking point. The onus is on you here to convince why this stuff is worth spending any time at all on.

>>62891 >If humanity has attempted some form of socialism on multiple occasions and every single time it resulted in genocide, famine, grinding poverty and general suffering then he's got a fuarrrking poin Except that socialism in the USSR was also directly responsible for a huge flourishing of arts and sciences, and lifting up millions of people from poverty. Cuba still exports more doctors to the rest of Latin america than anywhere else, arguably the standard of medical care is better in Cuba than the united States. To just say "every single time it resulted in X" Is basically saying that there is no difference between different socialist governments or how they failed (not true) and that also there were never any good things to come out of socialism (also not true). I could point to self-professed capitalist governments that engaged in genocide and created poverty and famine from their policies. Is this a reason to never read capitalist economic theory? Clearly not! Socialism is also not really relevant to this thread.

>>62893 >a huge flourishing of arts Ayn Rand? >and sciences Space pencils? >socialism in the USSR was also directly responsible for lifting up millions of people from poverty I don't think that's true. Industrialization was inevitable. The only thing socialism did was slow it down. East vs West Germany. North vs South Korea. China vs Taiwan. Evidence that exactly the same people/culture would have been significantly better off without socialism is abundant. >Cuba still exports more doctors to the rest of Latin america than anywhere else That is only 1 dimension. It is very easy to rob Alice and Bob and give it to Eve and then say look at how happy Eve is. What is your actual argument here anyway, Cuba is so great that doctors who get special privileges at the expense of everyone else still can't wait to gtfo? >arguably the standard of medical care is better in Cuba than the united States And what is the argument? How do you measure it? Communist slaves who know they will be sent to the gulag if they post bad stats are not the most reliable sources. https://academic.oup.com/heapol/article/33/6/755/5035051?login=false >To just say "every single time it resulted in X" Is basically saying that there is no difference between different socialist governments or how they failed (not true) Every single time it results in famine because you lynch/rob/demoralize the most productive farmers because they are oppressing you with their success or something. Then no matter what bullshit co-op or land redistribution policy you apply to the remaining unproductive workers they can never bridge the productivity gap. Shocked pikachu face you now don't have enough food to feed everyone. Forced egalitarianism doesn't work. Socialism doesn't work. The only way such governments survive long term is by re-instating some level of private property and re-opening a small part of the market economy and pretending it's all part of the plan. >that also there were never any good things to come out of socialism (also not true) I know that's what you want to believe but you haven't named one specific thing or shown that that thing would not have been better without socialism. >I could point to self-professed capitalist governments that engaged in genocide Not against their own fuarrrking people. >and created poverty and famine from their policies. When government does stuff it is not capitalism anymore because the government is not subject to market forces ( >>62891 ) >Socialism is also not really relevant to this thread. And who brought it up?

>>62895 >rob and kill the successful Is this image meant to convince me to become a communist??

>>62897 >Is this image meant to convince me to become a communist?? No it's to help your feeble brain understand why we are preemptively throwing you out the helicopter.

>>60571 I feel you. My situation is a bit different. I had landed a job, i work 12 hours in 2/2 schedule, it pays way more than average in place i live. Yet I still feel like soykaf, waste my time, barely progress on anything. I think that the best we can take from this thread is that there should be some sort of goal, or aim, or dream or whatever that makes you do what you do. Find something that justifies the means, and let you push for growth. by the way Fuarrk USSR, USA, Cuba, Communism, Capitalism, and your soykaf larping. I fuarrking despise your silly idols and your soykaf workethics and petty politics. Go touch some grass, do some fuarrking good to yourself and people around you. Bonus points if you don't hurt anyone during the process

>>62907 You should study , A.P.L. by the by , especially B.Q.N. literal 'e' + proverbial 'u' , build this Guy .

>>62895 I was working on a long reply but I realized about halfway through that it literally didn't matter what I said. You clearly have no interest in the nuances of history, you want to Own the Commies. If that's all you want to do, feel free; I don't really have a dog in this fight, I just hate ignorant people who are proud of their ignorance. Like I said, I think that capitalism v. socialism is actually off-topic for this thread (and the duplicate threads which exist for some reason)

>>60629 No libertarian, the gold standard will not solve everything. Inflation might get less bad, but the fundamental contradictions of capitalism would still exist.

>>63001 Right now you are getting btfod by inflation cause fed printed 40% of usd ever in existence in just the rona years. The money went into a hedge that used it to buy up the entire housing market as well as wormed itself into most important corps to enforce their regulatory schemes. The biggest financial change of our decades wouldn't be possible without fiat printing at will... And you think money printing isnt an issue because you never hear about how much scams they pull off with it. Also at the minimum you should be aware that decades of inflation with stagnant wages is the sole reason youre poor compared to grandpa. A gas station job paid better back then than your master degree pays now. There are other problems too of course. Dodge suing Ford and cementing in law that a corp must maximize profit instead of giving employees better conditions would be one such reason. The system as a whole is corrupt but its not a failure of capitalism as a system but a failure of average joes lacking the capitalistic tendency to fight for their own benefits. They just took every hit others dished out instead of crucifying the responsible people for trying to fuarrrk with their lives.

>>63006 >fed printed 40% of usd ever in existence in just the rona years. That's not true. Stop getting your statistics from memes. https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/2021_currency_print_orders.htm US dollar is still strong and the inflation is at a global scale, so it's extremely unlikely that the root source of this massive global inflation is America printing a little more money than before. The much more obvious and influential reason for this level of inflation is the demonstrable supply chain issues and labor shortages caused by the global pandemic (and corporate greed to profit off of it by artificially restricting supplies and labor even more).

>>63014 the printing is what enabled the hedge going wild with the money fed gave them. Also its more complicated then just the print orders. What they say is PR talk to convince you all is well. They would never tell you yeah we are screwing you. For example take a look at fractional banking. All it means is bank can print 10x of what it has stored in credit. And it doesn't stop at one bank generating 10x more once because debt is traded and used as collateral to repeat the same soykaf on next point. This is how they cause the original crisis that required banks to bailout. The card house folds when the music stops and everyone acknowledges the traded financially assets are junk. Then the backing is lost and the spiral churns. This is also where the hedge came in posing itself as the solution. And obviously others also print. EU printed likewise but unlike EU US has the benefit of making bank. Rona was a money siphon that transferred trillions from EU to US for the vacc. And currently they go suicide mode with the energy crisis so of course they lose value more than $

>>63014 >That's not true. "Printing" is just a colloquialism. He obviously doesn't mean physical dollar bills. https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/money-supply-m2 >US dollar is still strong The US dollar is the world reserve currency and the only currency accepted by most oil exporters which generates artificial demand. In other words the largest military in the world has set things up to ensure their currency will be the last to fall. That doesn't mean everything is ok. >The much more obvious... You think it's "obvious" because of the propaganda, not because it's actually obvious. >Stop getting your statistics from memes. Stop getting your statistics from the corporate media. >corporate greed to profit off of it by artificially restricting supplies and labor even more I never understand why people like you pretend to care about wealth inequality and then give the central banking cartel a 100% free pass on everything.

>>62930 >I was working on a long reply but I realized about halfway through that it literally didn't matter what I said. You clearly have no interest in the nuances of history, you want to Own the Commies. I was actually looking forward to finding out what these marvelous artistic and scientific achievements you kept alluding to were. Kind of seems like you were full of soykaf all along now

>>63042 If that's all you wanted to know, I would be happy to talk about it. Sergei Eisenstein invented the concept of montage while working on an early Soviet propaganda film called Battleship Potemkin, the difference in quality between that film and hollywood-produced films of the same era is astounding. Dziga Vertov also experimented quite a bit with film-making and montage to make very interesting films like Man with a Movie Camera. On the science side of things, well, some of the best textbooks on theoretical physics and mathematics were written on Soviet times, although perhaps the most notable one (Landau-Lipschitz, still used as a reference throughout the whole world today) was written by notable dissidents. Some notable names that come up in my line of work are Kolmogorov, Vassiliev, Gromov, and Arnold, all of whom were soviet educated. Eastern europe was always known for having good scientists and mathematicians but until soviet times they weren't known for having good scientific education. Before soviet times, most people got their education in france or germany. Now moscow state university is still considered one of the best in the world for mathematics. It is true that the communist party also suppressed a lot of art and science. I think that probably, the great blooming of art and science that happened under soviet rule, especially early soviet rule, was mostly due to people having a revolutionary spirit inside of them, not because of socialist policies. Maybe if Stalin had never taken power things would be different.

>>63044 Pretty much as obscure and irrelevant as I expected.

>>63052 Ah yes, cinema and physics, famously irrelevant to arts and science.

>>63065 That other anon is a major dickbag. I appreciated your comment and enjoyed reading it :D

>>63044 Bunch of more recent mathematicians who were educated in the former USSR Alex Kirillov - notable for his Orbit Method. Worked in Representation Theory and Lie Groups. Sasha Razborov - worked in Complexity Theory. Known for the Razborov-Smolensky Lower Bounds, Natural Proofs Alexei Kiteav - practically pioneered Quantum Information, especially Topological Quantum Computation, SPTs. Known also for the Toric code. Plenty of others, but I'm having trouble thinking of more right now.

>>63341 Oh, I also forgot Mikhail Khovanov. Known for Khovanov homology and categorification of knot invariants.

just started a new job it's not even 25 hours a week but it already feels unbearable i cannot even imagine the hell that is a 9 to 5. everything you do there is fake every interaction everything you "learn" for it is nonsense im already considering quitting and just stealing whatever it is that I need.

>>63510 and yes it is a retail job i literally cannot bear these people who have plastered on smiles all day long

>Remote work >live like a minimalist, cut out unnecessary expenses like Netflix subscription, eat at home instead of eat at a restaurant, drive a used car or use public transit as opposed to driving a brand new vehicle (cut expenses where you can, no need to go too extreme) >save more money than you spend >research FIRE savings and downshifting lifestyle and look into economic books by Aaron Clarey (his yt channel is good too) and Robert Kiyosaki. >find ways to make passive income >learn a skill that can be used in freelance work so you can work when you want to These are all just some suggestions, you need to find what works for you. Apart from winning the lottery or gaining an inherentance, there is no get rich quick scehems. You need to discipline yourself to slowly exit the rat race for good. It all comes down to how badly you want freedom and independence. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-win-rat-race-aaron-clarey

>>60612 wasnt there a brutal civil war there that the US had to intervene in?

Everything is done to make you work more. Labor is after all the thing that transforms the wealth of nature into complex useful objects for us. It's the difference between a fallen apple you would pick on grass, and a basket of apples on display in a supermarket. You might be rich by owning a few luxury resorts in Malibu and a bunch of stocks, but if no one does maintenance work on the properties, and no one work to create value for investors by actually producing products to sell and buy—or the machines to create those—your assets will soon turn into dust. You might trade a diamond for water in a hypothetical desert, but if no one ever worked to extract the diamond from a mine in the past, you wouldn't own a diamond in the first place. >As William Petty puts it, labour is [the father of material wealth] and the earth its mother. From this point of view, it should makes sense why escaping the 9-5 work life is not an easy task. The question, is, what do we do now? There are three different levels of analysis to answer this question: - How can you accommodate with the 9-5 life? - Are there any ways to escape it, in a way that is agreeable, within societal constraints? - Could there be a better economic (or spiritual) system to not have to drudge with the 9-5 zombified state of being all of our lives? All of them are valid analyses. For the accommodation part, I think the lainons who emphasized getting relaxed positions within companies in some way or another, and having better skills than most competitors on the labor market, are right and it is a good way to not resent too much the workday. At the very least, it's better to work on a project that you know is useful and meaningful to you, rather than something you know is going to be a trainwreck later down the line. Personally, I wanna learn Rust partly because it would allow me to escape Java/Typescript/SQL CRUD soykafjobs, and focus on lower-level stuff, while a company would trust me to work on such projects with an autistic compiler rather than mere guidelines about "the best practices of modern C++". Also, take breaks during the workday, it's very important. Even if you don't smoke cigarettes, just go walk around 5-10 minutes or more if you can get away with it, take a coffee or a glass of water, and just think about anything other than your task at hand, it's essential. For the real escape part, well learning about finance is the best. It's a complex topic, and I don't have much money to invest so I can't offer you great advice, but learn about how money works, why the US Fed raising or decreasing interest rates matters, learn about stock options, what is the difference between a call and a put option, learn about macroeconomics. Remember the first rule of investing is: don't invest anything you can't afford to lose. It's good to have savings, period. That said, having too much savings can be a diminishing return at some point. Also, look at the labor rights in your country, to see if you can get the dole in such and such administrative situations, so you can take longer breaks from labor, which are needed, otherwise "burnout" wouldn't be a thing. Which brings me to the last part, about changing society, and well, it's an even more complex topic. To sum up my thoughts quickly, I think "true capitalism haven't been tried" crypto users have a point when they say inflation due to fiat money is a cause of many problems for people who work from 9-to-5, such as lack of durable investment opportunities for common households and so on. But this is by design, you are sounding like well-meaning Keynesians who want to change how the state invests in favor of such and such parties of the economy. The state invests in the favor of oligarchs because it is its job. I also think Leninist communists have a point when they say a better system could be possible, involving a planned economy. After all, the economy is already planned, and it's not a crazy idea to plan basic sectors like food, water, real estate, waste disposal, energy and so on, in a way that is more beneficial for those of us who work from 9-to-5. But Leninists tend to be mentally stuck in eternal 1848, when Europe was on the brink of a wave of revolutions, which is ironic coming from people talking so much about "material conditions". Drones with machine guns exist today, and even after a hypothetical successful revolution, what do we do now that almost everyone is a proletarian on this Earth? The only solution I've heard of, which is desirable both from a short-term and long-term perspective, for everyone involved in working at a 9-to-5 job, is to reduce work hours—and by extension to raise the cost of labor power. In the late 19th-century and early 20th-century, people as diverse as Paul Lafargue, Howard Scott and Keynes were talking about a 16-hour workweek. Nowadays, this idea has been almost completely abandoned. We are rooting for a 32-hour workweek as if this was some kind of revolutionary thing. The only way out of this wretched society is to work less in the realm of wage labor, and work more in the realm of pure usefulness for its own sake. Reducing the amount of labor hours available to grow the wealth of corrupt oligarchs will force them to reconsider what kind of production is truly important, and what jobs are "non-essential" just like during COVID-19 (protip: these jobs are essential for the survival of the current economic system, but not for our well-being). Get rid of the non-essential jobs and share the remaining toil, so we can all enjoy more free time during this short life, and stop polluting the Earth by commuting everyday to some soulless office or useless shop selling trinkets. Politically, I think you should be aware of the power your labor holds, from a self-interested point of view, and how collective labor movements can get you durable gains/breaks from the soul-crushing machinery. This is why I'm going on strike today, and shall join the action after I'm done with my cup of coffee.

>>66230 No, that was Yugoslavia, Czechslovakia dissoluted in civilized way. Also what do you mean "had to"? Did they endanger US lands? Policeman of the world mentality again from americans.