dealing with well-meaning dishonesty from someone I'm in love with

i dislike mentioning this and hope it won't derail the thread, but I'm female, so keep that in mind reading this - the typical gendered dynamics of straight romance don't really apply here. every time i don't mention this when venting about relationships anonymously, all the replies give the advice they'd give to a straight man, which just isn't helpful. onto the topic: for several months now I've been sort of best-friends, sort of romantically involved with a woman I've known since last year. and we recently had a discussion where i basically directly asked "what are we? are we going to be in a relationship?" and she admitted she mostly just sees me as a friend and that the romantic/sexual attention i got from her was more because she wanted to see me be happy. i honestly feel horrible about this. my ex-girlfriend had similar tendencies and it always made me so guilty when she would admit that she didn't really want to do something, after i asked her if she wanted to do it and she said yes. this feels like a repeat in an even worse way - my ex-girlfriend loved me, at least. and now i just find myself curled up in the closet or under the blanket on my bed, crying and imagining the woman i love patting my head. but i don't think there's much chance of that ever happening and that breaks my heart. she's selfless to a fault, almost to the point it ends up being selfish again. she can't handle feeling like anyone anywhere dislikes her or feels negatively about her so she just self-sacrifices and is dishonest at every turn in hopes that she can somehow get everyone she ever interacts with to like her. i honestly should have seen this coming, i just kind of dodged having a direct conversation about it for three months. im mostly okay and won't hurt myself or anything, but i feel a little bit obligated to continue talking to her. im pretty sure she'll self harm if i stop talking to her. don't get me wrong, there's definitely a part of me that wants to continue talking to her, its just... another stress, i guess. honestly, im plain and simply in love. she's hurt me a lot by making me think that she might feel the same way, but she didn't do it out of malice, just out of her own fuarrrked up brain and tendencies to treat herself as an object whose sole purpose is making others happy. she hates herself way too much to ever trust another person not to hate her, and that prevents her from loving anyone. i wish i could help her but it definitely seems like she needs professional help, there's only so much i can do, especially when I'm emotionally fuarrrked up like this. honestly this thread is probably missing a lot of context necessary to understand the situation properly, but I'm not here to make sense, I'm here to just get my thoughts out stream of consciousness. im in a lot of pain. im so deeply in love with a woman who sees me in only the mildest of a romantic way, and she just keeps trying to let me use her in a transactional way because it's the only way she knows how to "make things better". she doesn't really get that my love for her means i don't just want her body, or her personality, or to cuddle with her. i love her and i want to be close to her.

>>58821 oh, missing context i guess: she's been abused in many different ways at different times for basically her whole life - by her mom, partners, "friends". i think I'm the first person to get very close with her who hasn't tried to take advantage, so i don't think she really understands what a healthy relationship looks like or why someone would want that with her. so that's why she's kind of fuarrrked up in a lot of ways

>>58821 >im so deeply in love with a woman who sees me in only the mildest of a romantic way So it goes. >>58822 >i think I'm the first person to get very close with her who hasn't tried to take advantage, so i don't think she really understands what a healthy relationship looks like or why someone would want that with her. Unhealthy relationships often look healthy at the start, so it may also be that this looks the same as some of her other relationships and she doesn't want to get taken advantaged of again. I have to say, if you feel obligated to talk to her because she may self harm if you stop, then it would not be a healthy relationship. You cannot have a healthy relationship where you're going to be worried that your partner will self harm if you upset her, and she'll have to struggle knowing that her coping mechanisms are inherently destructive to the relationship. That may be another reason she doesn't want a relationship, she may know that she isn't ready for one. When I was depressed, I refused romantic relationships because I knew my depression made me emotionally unavailable and that the depressive episodes would be unfair to my partner. Whatever her reasons. That is like kicking dead whales down the beach, lain.

>>58826 >Unhealthy relationships often look healthy at the start, so it may also be that this looks the same as some of her other relationships and she doesn't want to get taken advantaged of again. honestly, it might be the opposite reason - she seems to seek out poor treatment, it's like a weird non-physical self harming thing. she finds people online who she knows will treat her like soykaf and then hangs out with them all the time. and yeah. she's definitely not ready for a romantic relationship. and i do want to keep talking to her, it's not like im only still doing it out of obligation. we basically agreed that she needs more of her soykaf sorted out if we're ever going to be romantic together. it just is like kicking dead whales down the beach, considering the possibility that might not ever happen. i don't really know what to do - try to get over her? based on past experience that'll take 3 months at minimum, possibly longer. the fact that there's still some distant possibility of us being together someday makes it really hard for me to comprehend moving on. this is all very new and raw and fresh so my perspective will likely be different in the coming weeks.

> just sees me as a friend perhaps this attention involves more symbiosis than they know as familiar > she said yes remember in such dynamics many have suffered with implicit consent , so by asking well , with work and with luck , your significant other whomever they may be must honor you .

> self harm if you stop such is dignity . if you cannot provide for what you deem beauty , then you leech off what you would consider their position .

> kicking dead whales do morti la baleno.

>>58827 > a weird non-physical self harming thing they might seek a feeling very specific and very rare . if so they consider those people your competition lol

>>58927 they're not my competition, they're people i hope she learns how to stay away from. she seeks out abuse but she doesn't enjoy it. it would be horrible, psychopathic, not to mention stupid of me to treat her the same way. she's literally offered to be my ragdoll, not out of significant attachment to me but rather because she wants to feel useful and I'm nice to her, but that's not what i want from her and it breaks my heart. i want a partner who won't just reflect me

Sounds like you know any possible romantic relationship with her is not what you want, and not what she needs. Also that being around her knowing you can't be together is very painful to you. Therefore you need to take some distance and start moving on. Being in love makes it hard to acknowledge that since imagining being separated from the person you love is extremely painful, so you gravitate towards any possible doubts and complicating factors to avoid being decisive. But the longer it takes to get past that the more you will get hurt.

Don't hurt yourself through someone else. Either take a deep breath and just live, or live an alternate path without her (and with all the possibilities that brings)

>I think I'm the first person getting close who hasnt tried to take advantage, so maybe she doesn't understand that I'm offering a real, healthy relationship I hate to say it but it sounds like you're trying to manipulate her into being your 'girlfriend' when she supposedly doesn't want it and is just kinda going along with it to make you feel better. You should stop being a flaggot. Why would you want a girlfriend anyway, if you're not a bloke. It makes no sense. Refocus your efforts on getting a husband and settling down, and off of the drama of this sort of friendship that just seems to be giving you grief. And for what ?

>>58933 it's hard, though. i don't know, im thinking about trying to stay in contact with her in case she gets enough therapy to want to date me. I'm really bad at forcing myself to fall out of love with someone, even if i cut all contact, so the hope is that she either gets to the point where she can healthily date me, or i fall in love with someone else and thereby move on. I really don't want to move on from her, she's just everything ive ever wanted and if i had any sort of assurance it was even likely that we'll work if i wait, i would wait without hesitation. >>58935 >I hate to say it but it sounds like you're trying to manipulate her into being your 'girlfriend' when she supposedly doesn't want it and is just kinda going along with it to make you feel better. i really hope not. i honestly don't know, she tried really hard to get me to keep talking to her, but she seems to do that with even people she doesn't like. i don't know, this is all really fresh and I'm going to wait a bit before communicating anything further to her. I'm really cautious about not being manipulative, so I'll have to think about this >You should stop being a flaggot. Why would you want a girlfriend anyway, if you're not a bloke. It makes no sense. idk man, lots of reasons, none of them really stand out above the others. i definitely lean towards being more dominant and there's just less submissive men than there are submissive women. femininity is nice, its cute and sweet and i enjoy feminine personalities and aesthetics. women seem more attracted to me than men. i think i give off lesbian vibes without really intending to. i dress like a blob and my voice sounds 10 years older than i actually am. to be honest I'm not the best looking person out there and dykes are less shallow than men, lol im not ruling out the option of a husband but I just seem to end up mostly falling for women. the one dude ive ever had a crush on ended up being a user himself, lol, so that obviously didn't work.

thought, typing it out so i don't forget it: she asked me a lot about like, "what happens now". i think that a week or so from now I'll first make her promise to be absolutely honest, then ask her what she wants to happen. I'll emphasize that she should actually take a while to think before answering, and emphasize that i want her to express her own selfish want, so i can compare it to my own and decide from there.

>"and she admitted she mostly just sees me as a friend and that the romantic/sexual attention" Just exactly what do you expect from this relationship? What do you expect from her? Clearly, you love her more than she loves you. If you're looking for a friend, then you got it, but if you're looking for a intimate partner, then you better understand who you are dealing with. The human mind is vast, and your grasp is limited. God only knows what goes through her head. Maybe her trauma is a immense burden which complicates what should be simple, maybe she just doesn't want a relationship with you. Maybe she just doesn't a want relationship, period. Sharing your intimate life with another person can be terrifying for some. Give time to people. You don't have to do or say anything, as you intend to do ( >>58951 ) . People will manifest their intentions, though rarely verbally. Learn to read, and understand your partner. There's nothing sincere and natural in life that you must force to happen. Better yet, understand yourself, since you are the epicenter of this conflict. Are you simply horny? It takes no effort for our judgement to get clouded, be it by hormones, vices, desires, or one billion other things. You're only human.

>>58947 >in case she gets enough therapy to want to date me ...

>>58955 literally her words. i know that sounds fuarrrked up though, thank you for calling me out on it. jesus im fuarrrked up lol >>58954 >Are you simply horny? definitely not

>>58957 I don't think it sounds fuarrrked up, I think it sounds like you have love induced delerium. Even if it's her words the telling thing is you believe it makes sense. A lot of the rest of what you have said also sounds like that. Not to be insulting or dismissive, I've been there and had friends be there. But you might want to consider how your thought process is working right now and what it would take to be making good decisions.

>>58960 I'm taking my time to think about stuff before taking any action.

>>58821 had a very similar experience to OP... she unironically had trauma induced multiple personalities so the one who loved me was not actually the real her...she overdosed on medication then ghosted me tho

>>58997 You should be wary of conflating something that is pretty much just BPD with genuine DID. The latter will have memory compartmentalization, often loss of time or feeling pulled out of your body and watching someone else take over, and so on. If the host personality is aware of this it could ghost people around them. In BPD however you'll have rapidly shifting shallow emotions, the idealization devaluation cycle (where you're subconsciously seen as the parent, and you can't be good parent and bad parent at once, ie "splitting"), and strong repetition compulsion and approach avoidance issues (approach for identity and security, terror of enmeshment and engulfment (total loss of self), thus triggering blame and avoidance, until they want comfort again and return) BPD in my understanding (more than NPD) can look like DID, but they're distinct. In the BPD individual no "older" alters actually exist, it's all run by the infant with arrested emotional development at 1 or 2 years old. Cognitively BPD usually makes it to like 15 tops. NPD is also an eternal adolescent, but in a different way, with stronger defense mechanisms and more agency. DID is a host personality with several either complete alters from different ages with their own access to memories and skills (and often common memory), to a bunch of fragments that are kind of like people, and if the split occurred young, they can actually be made to resemble objects or animals. Robots, other structures. And an inner landscape can be created to contain and have the different alters and parts of self move through. So the whole presentation is different, "switching" will occur with stress or whatever. But in BPD it will be the love bombing, idealization, and mirroring phase where they make you think this great person that loves you exists. Followed by eventual devaluation and you find out they were just a chameleon. In DID "parts" (or eg internal family systems model) can be reabsorbed into the core self or broader host personality, and they don't "die" just because the person is away from whoever they were mirroring at the time. The parts in DID are "real" as such, not strictly simulated.

>>59003 OP here, she's definitely not bpd, her personality just doesn't remotely fit the symptoms. her view of me and of others has shades of grey and is very consistent over time. she sometimes thinks she's npd but i don't think she fits the symptoms either. if she does she has a really, really weird variant of it. her mom is 110% diagnosable npd though, its textbook.

I'm not going to keep this thread constantly updated but we've been having good dialogue today about the situation and i feel okay.

>>59006 Someone can have both NPD/BPD and DID. Some parts would manifest the cluster B behaviors, others wouldn't. Coming from a cluster B family can easily do that you, though.

>>59006 Growing up with a parent with BPD or NPD means that you are constantly on pleasing/managing your parents emotions in order to survive your day-to-day by keeping the anger and the emotional/physical violence that comes with it at bay. Your life is about your parents emotions. There is no room for your emotions and you do not learn how to listen to what you want and need for yourself. So when you become an adult you struggle to create boundaries for yourself, and to understand what you want emotionally since you are so focused how others feel. When you are bad at setting boundaries saying no is extremely difficult, if not impossible when saying "no" will inevitably result in the other person being upset. I see this pattern more and more as I get older in myself and those I know who grew up in similar environments. Whenever interpersonal soykaf gets intense I often find it helpful to understand that we are not responsible for each others emotions we are only responsible for our own. That might be a tough thing for her to internalize and it may make things tricky in untangling how she feels. Hopefully none of this info is useful. I wish you both well, relating to people is non-trivial.

You cannot control how other people act and feel. You cannot make someone that does not love you love you. You need to cut things off with her before she hurts you anymore. This advice would go for any genders. Man or woman or what have you.

>>58947 what a terrible list of reasons not to date men. I say this relatively dispassionately - it's no more an insult than you think it should be. >>59012 I stated that already, but it makes sense to add that this advice would apply to anyone describing similar circumstance.

>>58955 > to wanna date me I think she meant go dating specifically , not engage the relationship . I think one sense presumed another , however one concern with internet cultured ppl , is whether they would explore through any open spaces , with or without company .

> we have no propriety over each others emotions > we only have propriety over our own. I see your intention here, however i disagree. we certainly need to have boundaries as well as distinctions, however dividing psychological and physical work seems like the most appropriate relationship format for humans at least .

imo you seriously should not use psycho-analytic grammar to frame your intimate relationships with anyone that could very well turn into the most selfish thing you could give them however that grammar suits a surgical approach to the mind . you end up removing things rather than adding .

>>58821 Lainon, have you considered that maybe she does not feel conventional romantic attraction? I grew up in a family that discouraged me from dating before 18, and I suppose I'm a little stunted romantically to the point I would view a partner as a very good friend. Similarly, I read somewhere that in most marriages "romantic love") disappears in about 7 years and is replaced by mutual duty and friendship. Ultimately it is up to you both to consider whether this is healthy. Funnily enough, a few years ago I felt like I was in the same situation as you. I haven't dated since (this was after I was broken up with) because I guess it revealed some that earlier part about my personality.

>>59011 is there any good way to help mitigate this in her interactions with me? anything that helps you? this sounds accurate to her. currently i try to be conscientious and cautious, and usually try to ask her what she wants for herself before i state what i want, so that her answer isn't colored by mine. >>59026 yeah my phrasing was really bad, this is accurate interpretation

>>59060 I think just trying to be aware and compassionate and also realizing there is only so much you can do. I think at the end of the day there are the people and there are the relationship. Sometimes both people are wonderful but what matters most at the end of the day is if the relationship is working. Ideally a relationship should feel almost easy and even a little boring. If it is stressful day to day listen to that. It can be difficult when you see in a person what they can be but that is not where they are and in fact it may take years for them to get there. That usually doesn't work out. At the end of the day all you can do is pay attention to how the interactions with her make you feel. Positive? Secure? Negative? Relaxed? Sad? Hurt? I also recommend you read into attachment theory if you don't know about it. it can be an interesting perspective to view your relationships (friendships included). Attachment theory is not the end all be all and far from perfect, but I have found it insightful. Best of luck

>>59066 I guess I'm saying the best thing you can do is focus on you.

>>59054 >conventional romantic attraction what even is conventional romantic attraction. As someone who's been basically married for some years I personally haven't a clue. Don't think it has anything to do with marriage. BABY DON'T HURT ME, DON'T HURT ME, NO MORE

>>59060 Key probably needs a blue glowing Naga possessing herr body every now and then engineering some symbiosis within Lil ecosystems . In retrospect , such a thing feels very peaceful as well as fun even during a psycho-social isolation with RPG players . In hindsight , that seems opposite to what you enjoy . P.S. I found this word in Esperanto : *reejoisto* !

>>59069 LAIN seems to like a tune or toons rather than Mär with a person .

How does one make their finger glow imaginary blue ? FUR realz ?!?

Mi personally , I do suppose that I might now know !1!

All pursons under estimate pink glowing red solids . As for your original query , your girl friend probably only needs a chance to rest and feel able tu escape work and go home .

op here: i have started going to therapy to discuss this. soykafs still a daily struggle to deal with. i want to look into her eyes and hold her hand and cuddle her and make her feel safe in my arms and it makes me cry pretty often that I can't. it hurts a lot. sometimes i think about the possibility of her dating someone else which really really fuarrrks me up (because it closes off the possibility of us being together much more strongly plus im a jealous bitch), but intellectually i don't consider that likely. i worry that we might be drifting away a bit, but at the same time she's been extremely busy so I'm not going to ask her to talk to me more; she has enough on her plate. im basically just waiting around hoping she'll want to/be mentally capable of dating me someday. it's a long and painful wait but honestly better than the alternatives. i don't know that I'm capable of falling out of love when i still believe it's possible to make things work, and I have no real desire to be with anyone other than her in any capacity, sexual or romantic.

>>59578 op here again: i feel horrible about this whole situation tonight, i feel hopeless and alternate between calm depression and panic.

how do you suppose that she'll do that ? do you believe her path will give her growth ?

>>59706 what is the 'that' which you refer to >>59604 btw re: this we had a discussion and i feel better for now!

I decided after much thought my most selfish desire. Please don't regard this too seriously, since I swear to do my best no matter what, for no reason other than experiencing 'fellow feeling' f i n a l l y However so you can have some closure regarding, that curiosity, I feel very certain this desire would never change, going forward . I want Julian Assange to not Super Gh0st and force him to have the choice to build our culture, with me in the place I would declare by saying: "alasland@last"

>>58821 op here, I've started going to therapy. still very much in love with this woman. she's been doing pretty poorly lately but there's hope for things to get better.

>>58821 >>61023 well, she decided to date someone else. i am genuinely miserable and its very very hard not to self harm! considered burning myself w my lighter a few times but havent; punched myself in the head and fuarrrked up my neck muscles for a few days. every time i think about the fact that she wants to date someone else and doesn't want to date me i feel inadequate, worthless, desperate, etc. ive been crying multiple times a day over this. i am not confident in my ability to get over her. this is worse than when I broke up with my ex gf and we were /actually dating/ for 2x the time ive known this girl. soykaf's fuarrrked, man. maybe i will just have to cope with being alone forever at this rate. i feel like dating anyone else would feel like settling and I can't morally stomach dating someone who feels like settling. i want her to change her mind but i dont know whether i did anything wrong or if theres anything to be done. i just kinda want to die. i'm not suicidal but like i really want some kind of dramatic catharsis that im not getting at all

>>61300 welcome to the club, but i imagine you knew you were already in, just haven't wanted to admit it, thus the selfharm, i imagine. what a waste, though, when you could use that self harming energy to do something else. i think i get it, the insanity of the moment; losing all self control. each moment isn't as suited for some things as others, and making it so, as far as our conceptions of what is possible to do, seems so far from reality that the frustration boils over. embrace the despair. enjoy it while it lasts. like champaigne, the bubbles evaporate after a day, so enjoy it while it lasts. Out of your love the fire of youth will rise. In the chest, visions of the soul will rise. If you are going to kill me, kill me, it is alright. When the friend kills, a new life will rise. ~RUMI

>>61303 the fire of pain beating my chest in vain as i cry out in the rain the white moby dick like my prick zipped up quick what a pinch trying to hide my shame before the passerbyers point to exclaim "what an animal!" ~the imitation cheese

>>61300 Do you know für sure she wants a date with any other bean ? Have you held each other "hand in hand" » man' en man' « ? You both probably feel similarly despair'd.

>>61303 葒 m a g i n e commanding by lifeforce acheney from Dragon fruit so the will of that volition adds to such a fruit's own will to procreate during the most romantic scenarios described according to such volition ! ! ! 1 likewise the coconut, or the green spring 0nion . . !

why are all the schizos in my vent thread its unfair >>61303 im not enjoying it but im trying to distract myself by building better habits and self discipline

>>61318 >why are all the schizos in my vent thread its unfair It's your divine punishment for making your own thread instead of sharing /vent/ with everyone else. More seriously, I hope things get better for you, whether that entails moving on or otherwise.

>>61320 thanks lain. apologies, i neglected to look for a vent thread when i was making this one.

>>61318 What if any fruit was a potatoe ?

>>61300 Watch TeXnolyze for emotional ouchie

>>59019 >what a terrible list of reasons not to date men. She said she falls for girls do you think she just decides who to like? Wtf is your problem.