Butterfly effect

Hey lainons, I'd like to ask you something: following the logic of the butterfly effect, what do you think would be the "biggest" difference between a universe/timeline where I didn't created this post and you didn't answer and the universe where I did created it and you did answer ? Thx and have fun thinking about it I guess

>>50375 It is just cause and effect. You taking the time to post this instead of whatever else you would be doing. I'm responding to this instead of getting up and cleaning. Maybe not cleaning now impacts when I leave the house to eat food. Maybe by cleaning in 3 minutes instead of right now I avoid a car accident... Or alternatively, I get into one. I have nothing more to say.

the butterfly effect is a logical fallacy it is magical thinking to believe that something can cause/effect another thing which is completely unrelated the fact that you waste your energy, attention, and time fantasizing about something like this makes me question your intelligence/sanity

>>50376 Yeah that was also my first thought "if someone takes time to read this post and answer maybe they'll avoid/get into a car accident". I agree it's not really an interesting question I just wanted to see if someone had some other things to say about it >>50377 Like >>50376 said it's a cause and effect, it's not directly effecting on something totally unrelated, it's a following of a lot of small consequences, i don't really see why it would be a logical fallacy.

>>50377 >to believe that something can cause/effect another thing which is completely unrelated Everything is connected and a small change can have big impact. >the fact that you waste your energy, attention, and time fantasizing about something like this makes me question your intelligence/sanity I think you should question your own sanity and intelligence instead.

>>50378 >i don't really see why it would be a logical fallacy. It's cool, cosmic sounding pop-culture mumbo jumbo. Butterfly effect; a butter fly flapping it's wings at one part of the world can cause an earth quake/tornado at the other pole. The earthquake/tornado is caused by tectonic shifts/changes in air pressure and wind. That's magical thinking to believe a butterfly could impact these things. That something so small it might as well be unrelated can instantly impact something else which is unrelated. It works in theoretical math equations, physics equations, which are just forms of imagination, but not in real life. >>50378 >"if someone takes time to read this post and answer maybe they'll avoid/get into a car accident" This is magical thinking. Good thing you added "maybe" so it seems like a harmless fantasy and not a mental pathology. >>50379 >Everything is connected Not really. But if you deny reality (religious, schizo), I can see why you would think that. >I think you should question your own sanity and intelligence instead. Ok

>>50375 The thing is this is more or less unprovable since we don't have second timelines of history to see what causes what. We can only speculate without really knowing how correct our speculations are. But eh, there are so many things to consider. While actions can change some things, they can't others. We can all start jumping right now and the orbit of earth will remain the same. Same thing could be said about this post. Maybe all it did is make some people read and reply to it without changing anything else. Maybe you distracted someone from something with it which will change his life in some big ways. Although eh, I think most of things, while not stable, require a good ammount of chaos to actually change in important ways. I don't really believe I have yet commit any actions that will have major impact on the world. Think of it like a tub. While you can fill lot of water into it, for it to overflow and experience change in quality instead of quantity, you need lot of water.

>>50381 >Not really. Ever heard of quantum mechanics or quantum tunneling? >But if you deny reality (religious, schizo), I can see why you would think that. I'm neither religious or a schizo and name calling/personal attacks are not really arguments. It seems that either your world understanding is too simplistic or you didn't bother to check what the butterfly is about. The butterfly effect means that small changes in the past can influence massive changes in the future. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect No breaking laws of physics is involved, as some low-tier "science" fiction garbage can suggest. There are more and less meaningful events influencing the future. The death of young Adolf Hitler would have massively changed the world whereas the death of a random horse wouldn't change the future as much.

>>50384 But what it the horse is related to the dead of adolf? Adolf got once saved from drowning in his youth. Imagine the guy got delayed by some horse dying. The entire idea of butterfly effect is "you cant knot what small thing might chain into something big" and the field it belongs to is formally called chaos theory. The entire idea is you cant answer ops question because you dont know what tiny thing might do later. It might be everything and nothing.

>>50384 >The death of young Adolf Hitler LOL Another German would have come along and tried to colonize Europe by ethnic cleansing. Adolf Hitler just did it first. The Germanic tribe has always been hellbent on total European colonization. >It seems that either your world understanding is too simplistic Ok

>the butterfly effect it's a catchy name for the more complicated statement "tiny changes in initial conditions can lead to large changes in long term behavior". But there are two caveats there: 1) it might not, a key word is 'can' 2) most things that we would consider "the same" are completely different. For example, two storms can look basically the same to the eye but be extremely different storms... some gust pattern is different, or something. To be more mathematical, storms have very high entropy so if you change them significantly it is more likely to cause a different storm than a non-storm. 3) if you accept that the world has strict causality, the butterfly flapping is *not* the actual source of the storm. The initial conditions of the universe would have had to be different for the butterfly to switch to flapping from non-flapping, and the proper way to interpret it is that the universe's starting conditions were different was the 'cause' of the storm. >>50381 >That something so small it might as well be unrelated can instantly impact something else which is unrelated. You clearly don't understand the point if you think it could be instant. Most things in physics are continuous, meaning that it would take a long time to diverge significantly. >It works in theoretical math equations, physics equations, which are just forms of imagination, but not in real life. lol, imagine thinking you can directly observe "real life".

>>50387 And how is that even an argument? If someone else came he would likely done things different. If he was smarter and kept the scientists in the country it wouldn't have been us with nukes but germany because all the core members came from germany fleeing to us. Boom you have nazi germany with nukes gg no re.

>>50388 >lol, imagine thinking you can directly observe "real life". I take in maybe 5% of the information around be, possibly 10%. Like every other human being. This 5-10% is much better to live and experience than masturbating to abstract numbers on the screen of a graphing calculator. [I don't know if pic rel is true or not, but I think of it when I encounter conversations like this]

>>50389 >And how is that even an argument? You told me my understanding of history is flawed, and then 2 lines down you went right into "what if" scenarios, and fantasy. That's what young children do when they don't like something that has happened, they fantasize something like: "what if this scary situation didn't happen at all".

>>50390 >that text Holy based Wittgenstein. God among men for certain.

>>50390 >This 5-10% is much better to live and experience than masturbating to abstract numbers on the screen of a graphing calculator. Nobody tries to "live and experience" physics, they use it because they want to expand that tiny sliver of information they have. If you really think math is "imagination" you probably just don't know how disturbingly useful it is. It would be impossible to build a modern computer without having quite a lot of faith in abstract mathematical models of semiconductors. But the fact that you can read this text is proof that those models work.

>>50393 >>50392 When I multiply this number by 7, and subtract 2 to this one, oooooOOOooooo~~ the quadratic tilted by 80 degrees oh my god yes please more please yes mmmmmmm really? these numbers ACTYALLU make a computer work???? >~> omigosh thats sooooo crazy!!! turing was soooo right like oh my god yes please more <3<3<3

>>50394 >I'm too retarded to actually defend philosophical claims I make, so I'm just going to act like my opponents are retarded like me

>>50391 I was another poster simply arguing contrary to your claim that changing hitler with another person does matter because it would in fact potentially cause massive change. Now try to argue the point.

>>50395 idk man, just because abstract numbers somehow "work" in making blueprints to build a machine, doesn't make them "real". I don't know man... Math isn't "real life". Math is terrible at explaining something which changes states every single second, over and over again, for eternity, like "living" things. Sure it can explain stationary objects, like a computer or building, but not "living" things/systems, like natural disasters, history, humans, etc. maybe there was a miscommunication. >>50396 >Now try to argue the point. Another German raider would have come along and tried to colonize Eastern and Southern Europe. Maybe if Hitler was never able to do it in the 20th century, some other German would have, maybe in the 21st century or even the 22nd century. It's what Germanic people do, all the way back to the Vikings, and now with the EU.

>>50399 >idk man, just because abstract numbers somehow "work" in making blueprints to build a machine, doesn't make them "real". Just because color "works" in distinguishing objects from each other doesn't make it "real". Basically I think it doesn't make sense to >Math is terrible at explaining something which changes states every single second, over and over again, for eternity, like "living" things. Actually math is pretty good at explaining things which change state infinitely many times over any time period, it's called calculus. As to biology, well the *reason* why that is hard to model is that when you try to model them accurately you get highly chaotic equations. In other situations (like semiconductors) you can make useful simplifications to avoid dealing with chaos. "Biomathematics" is a burgeoning field these days, though. >but not "living" things/systems, like natural disasters, history, humans, etc. maybe there was a miscommunication. if by "miscommunication" you mean "childish insults", sure. >Another German raider would have come along and tried to colonize Eastern and Southern Europe. The point was that that doesn't mean everything would have went *the exact same*.

>>50401 ah I forgot to finish a point >Basically I think it doesn't make sense to make a distinction between "real" and "imaginary" that discounts anything abstract -- any concept you can think of is abstract if you look at it close enough. In any case, math is obviously a useful way to understand the world. Whether it's "real" or not is irrelevant.

>>50402 this discussion makes me thing of how imaginary numbers get soykaf for being called "imaginary" despite having tons of real world application. The initial guys already hated that naming and had a different one i dont remember anymore.

>>50404 complex numbers?

>>50404 >>50405 "lateral numbers" was gauss recommendation. Imo "complex" will be understood by most as "difficult" with likewise unintended consequences.

>>50417 are lateral/complex numbers just a (x, y) coordinate where x can interfere with y and vice versa or am i misunderstanding?

>>50420 the idea was to call it lateral because they put imaginary numbers on Y axis lateral to real numbers on X axis. As for what a imaginary number is - its the square root of -1 defined as " i ". This is interesting for multiplication because now you can do i^x and you get i^2= -1 , i^4=1,i^6=-1,... which means you can express rotation by multiplication. As for complex number:. Your regular coordinate system gives you 2 real numbers. With imaginary on Y plane you get (1,2) = 1+ 2*i so x is real part and Y is imaginary part which makes together a complex number.

So many retards ITT. Consider the following: If you jostle someone even slightly, then the next time that person has a child, the sperm that fertilizes the egg will be different than it would be otherwise due to the significant interaction between yourself and the matter of their body and their environment, including the transfer of kinetic energy into their body at that exact angle, the exact difference in timing of their movements, the new thought processes that they undergo due to their various senses, the automatic responses of their body, etc. If you were to go back in time into the middle of a crowd in a large city holding a pair of fuaaarking cymbals, then you would alter so many people that, in short order, cause and effect would result in alterations to everything within our entire 'open system' through various media of information flow, such as humans, atmosphere, internet (radio/microwave radiation), light, anything that can convey energy really. Since you are affecting the movement of EVERYONE, you also add entropy to the conception of children, so even the slightest difference in movement would change how EVERY HUMAN BEING is born from there on- this is the reality of living in such a system.

>>50435 >You should go into a crowded public area, bang on cymbals, and scream about the second coming of Jesus Christ.

>>50435 >something so complex would happen blah blah blah JUST THINK No, this is a trick. Thing's honestly are not this complicated. Don't apply this type of 'a to b' logic to a situation like this. It's a waste of time, and you'll just confuse yourself. Sperm is always recycling, and there are millions upon millions of them within every single load of sperm. It's hubris to claim that you could possibly understand something like this.

>>50420 Yes, sort of. The best way to think about complex numbers if you're uncomfortable with "imaginary numbers" is that they are what happens when you consider numbers whose multiplicative structure "behaves like" RO(2), the set of matrices which rotate and scale. This is a natural extension of R, since the only "rotation" in R is multiplying by -1. It also extends to quaternions and octonions. >>50437 >Thing's honestly are not this complicated. Don't apply this type of 'a to b' logic to a situation like this. The last resort of someone in total cognitive surrender: "Logic doesn't work here" >It's hubris to claim that you could possibly understand something like this. And yet here you are, claiming it is so simple.

>>50435 while this is true, its worth remembering that you can have different chaotic trajectories that converge to the same approximate outcome. the smallest breath of wind will completely alter the movement of a double pendulum in totally unpredictable ways, but ultimately no matter what happens it will eventually end up facing straight down in all possible worlds. if the butterfly does not flap its wings you arent going to avoid the hurricane. rather, youll end up in a world with a completely but also imperceptibly different hurricane. the existence of the hurricane has a lot of causal momentum behind it. youve got to alter the state of the world quite a bit, and in ways that are essentially impossible to know, if you want to actually avoid it.

>>50375 >what do you think would be the "biggest" difference between a universe/timeline where I didn't created this post and you didn't answer and the universe where I did created it and you did answer ? No difference when it comes to common thoughts. Maybe if this thread had created certain findings then it would probably be something different but we'll never know if some great event was actually a high convergence zone. The real butterfly effect story was about the tale between a butterfly carrying a potent pollen and a hidden village of fruit-bearing trees of which famine fleets around the corner. Had the butterfly died along the way due to some child's playful actions the village wouldn't make it, had it lived the village would live through the famine. That's pretty much the concept. Don't mess with nature. I think humans had been steering away from nature and we've created these tumors you could see in a map that is called "urban cities" which only generate waste, harmful chemicals, and landfill. The thing is randomness is somehow sentient and guides us. There's certain experiment involving the use of quantum randomness which lets people break through the preconceptions of our actions and I think it's something that could create a "big" difference on someone's personal universe/timeline. There's also other methods such as dimension jumping which is equally the same but has different method of work. This isn't something that requires a tool. Even your mind willpower could be enough to take you to places and a whole new and different universe/experience because humans/we have tendency to just segfault and feedback loop that affects us, people around, and the world negatively. The proof is genetics, people have built borders and landlocked people with nations this instead caused our genes to inbreed and exhibit more and more genetic redundancies that end up becoming genetic defects. Selective breeding isn't a thing with plants and animals, their nature is "chaos" and it is beautiful as it abides by nature but us humans do not and in which case we have been culled by "order" which limits us and fast forward a few thousand more years humans will become goblins that look terrible and have a lot of genetic defect. Just look at how much research goes into our genetic diseases, it's all our fault. Other animals and plants don't even have this problem because they're free to roam the world and spread with chaos and no limits.