Sculpting One's Body for Sexual Satisfaction

Sculpting one's body to appease a sexual fetish or live the fetish life 24/7 is the most cyber punk, anti-conformist lifestyle I can imagine. I have full support for the people who take this pathway in life, and choose to react to their sexuality in these ways. But, I can't stand the disingenuous people, the ones who deny that this is what they are doing. The people who deny who they truly are. The people who jump through intellectual hula-hoops and out-right denial of reality in order to explain away these feelings because they have guilt about acting on them. It's pathetic. The one's who are the deepest into the fetish, the one's who seem on the outside to have thrown away their social mask, while still having the guilty feelings covertly are the truly disgusting ones. Caring what other people think so they throw away their self and their true desires, people wasting hours and years of their lives trying to "prove" their lack of sexual motivations towards the lifestyle is the most magical-girl, conformist lifestyle and life motivation I can imagine [look up Contrapoints on YouTube, although it goes much further than AGP like delusional BDSM kinksters and delusional gay people]. Spending time feeling guilty, and feeling guilt after orgasm, when you would have spent that time masturbating or even having kinky, fulfilling sex with your partner(s) is just sad... That's the whole entire point of the fetish lifestyle, it's one way to express who you are, and letting society encroach on your self expression is....well it just defeats the whole entire point.

living to appease a fetish is basically pure egoism. I don't really respect it, any more than I respect someone who lives to make money.

>>47222 the most "anti-conformist" lifestyles are spiritual and martial pursuits, and the use of sex in a eugenic fashion for shaping ones offspring to be better equipped to pursue these goals. sexuality held as the zenith of self-expression and consumerism is disgusting. no ones cares that you "really" are a pervert or what feelings you experience.

>>47223 >pure egoism This is true. >I don't really respect it, any more than I respect someone who lives to make money. While fetish LARP isn't really my thing, I have a sense of shame, egoism being "negative", or at least not deserving of respect, with regards to sexual egoism, is subjective. It may be a commonly held belief, but it's still subjective. The goal of sex is to reach arousal, and egotistical fetish LARP reaches the goal of arousal. Egoism isn't deserving of respect when you use your egoism to hurt other people, I think. >>47227 >sexuality held as the zenith of self-expression and consumerism is disgusting. I agree with the consumerism part, and maybe self-expression as well if it's done poorly, and it most often is. >no ones cares that you "really" are a pervert or what feelings you experience. Nor should they care.

>Sculpting one's body to appease a sexual fetish or live the fetish life 24/7 is the most cyber punk, anti-conformist lifestyle I can imagine. What is this load of soykaf? Would make for a good line in some absurdist novel, but this is about the most bullshit i heard in a while. Conformists are all about sex nowdays, or always were. Now heres a hint to imagine a more /cyb/ anti conformist lifestyle, how about fighting the system that takes away our freedoms and turns everything and everyone into a ware for the ruling class to use as a weapon against everyone else. Seriously what is this soykaf, seems like some sort of larp or whatever, i dont even.

>>47222 slide thread. commit wasabi nigger.

>>47228 >It may be a commonly held belief, but it's still subjective. of course. >The goal of sex is to reach arousal, I actually disagree, sex can have many points. Very pointful enterprise.

> The people who deny who they truly are. people are not simply what remains after having one's sexual tastes shaped. >the most cyber punk, anti-conformist lifestyle cyberpunks do not refuse to conform for the sake of refusal they refuse to conform so they can create their own identity not to engage in activities which harms one's own free will if you tried to get triples on purpose, then you probably know how degenerate this post is.

>>47222 Can you make it clear what kind of modifications are you talking about?

>>47248 Not OP but I can imagine a few. Hoodectomy, labiaplasty, female genital nullification, castration, nipple removal, penile head splitting, trumpeting, penile bifurcation, tongue bifurcation, beading (also called pearling iirc). Look some of these up at your own risk of psychological trauma.

>>47248 >Make it clear The most common debate today is AGP and gender transition. Somebody getting breast implants to soothe their sexual fetish sounds cuber-punk as fuarrrk. It only kind of defeats the whole entire purpose of the fetish when you castrate yourself, because the feelings disappear. Somebody telling you about how they've done a Buffalo Bill minus the murder sounds like an interesting topic, even talking with people who sublimate their drive(s) into other means [making non-pornographic art, or even 18+ doujin] would be cool too, as long as both the Buffalo Bill guy and the sublimator lack guilt about their feelings when there's no need to be [they haven't disrupted other people], I find both lifestyles admirable. There's also people who are into BDSM, different types of it, they do strange behaviour, and claim that it's "totally not sexual", and if they belong to some kind of minority group hide behind 'hate speech laws' to deflect their guilt, and accuse their interlocutors of being "guilty". People who are into ABDL, pet-play. or slave-master relationships often do this and the fact that they won't admit it while putting it out in public is annoying and disgusting. Homosexual men who jerk off to themselves gaining muscles, taking steroids, while at the same time claiming that they are totally normal and not egotistical, is horrifying. Finding a partner just as muscular as yourself so you can mirror your sexual desires for your own self onto them, while also claiming to have a similar sexuality to an euphilic male is stupid. Making a wrestling 18+ doujin, while guiltlessly sculpting your body into the perfect wrestler body is cool, working out at the gym and being a whiny bitch when people call you out is pussy behaviour, "how dare you call me a pervert!!" Not manly, nor "bear", at all. I, like chubby kemono guys. I love to imagine being a chubby kemono guy and cuddling another chubby kemono guy. To be able to LARP this, I would need to "sculpt" my body by gaining weight. I am not going to gain weight, because I feel it would be obvious that I am attracted to this, and I don't really like to attach my IRL self to my fetishes, I am not extroverted like that. Especially if I were to have a chubby boyfriend, to get as close as possible to the fantasy, it would be way too obvious. I don't really have guilt about it, but I have the fear of potential shame preventing me from acting out these fantasies, and "sculpting my body". I also think that I have the personality of somebody scrawny, not fat. So, I would rather sublimate and fantasize, than act it out, while also not deciding to not act it out due to the guilt of society and thought blocking my fantasies because society says it's deserving of guilt, but rather to fit my own self-image and my own estimation of the value of social relationships. I don't really care about people who live out this fantasy IRL, and I would judge them on whether they have a pleasing personality or not, same with anyone else. >>47255 Maybe some people have a drive to have their peen inverted, but I don't think it's even related to genital sexuality at all, neither is it with anybody else.

>>47257 gender transition is usually different from sating a fetish.

>>47259 Sure, but in some people it is a fetish.

I hate it when people use the words "cyber punk" to describe things that are neither cyber nor punk.

I don't give a fuarrrk whether changing your body for sexual satisfaction is cyber or punk, but I know that once advanced anti-aging technology is starting to get available, I'll use it to become a legal shota and nothing is going to stop me from doing that. Take that, anti-pedes!

>>47223 >living to appease a fetish is basically pure egoism. I don't really respect it, any more than I respect someone who lives to make money. People who live for money still make investments, create jobs, pay taxes and donate to charity (to avoid taxes). It's hard to see how someone who lives only for orgasms is benefiting society though. >>47228 >Not hurting other people is worthy of respect Low bar for humanity there. >>47259 You have to agree that a non-insignificant number of MtF "transitions" is just a person's sexuality taking over their entire life. The same as furries wearing fursuits in public and trying to get paw transplants.

>>47268 That'll be an interesting experiment to see how rational vs emotional the anti-pedo argument really is.

>>47270 >People who live for money still make investments, create jobs, pay taxes Sounds great until its your competition. And frankly nobody matters, if they didnt exist another would fill the spot. On the mtf - its not sexuality taking over. Its scientology - the sex edition.You dont change gender to fap better. Its all the other crap riding on it and mainly driven by the company these people find themselves in. The only exception is the type thats says girl im totally trans so its trasnphobic if you dont suck my dick.

>>47272 >Sounds great until its your competition. Depends if you think wealth is a zero sum game. >You dont change gender to fap better. Human sexuality is dominated by psychology. Where do you think fetishes come from in the first place? AGP is all about how the sufferer presents himself so yes they "change gender" (in the hope) to fap better. >mainly driven by the company these people find themselves in I think that accounts for most of the rest. The current wave of cultural fascism we are experiencing has made gender specials the social elites so of course everyone is scrambling to identify as trans and enby right now. Just like how in previous waves everyone wanted to be feminist/ally or gay/bisexual. So I think some of it is runaway sexuality and some of it is social cult.

>>47268 >anti-aging technology Somebody, right now, could change their name to "Slave 826472", take feminizing hormones, take steroids. >I'll use it to become a legal shota and nothing is going to stop me from doing that. How the fuarrrk is this a retort? It's not possible in our reality.

>>47270 >People who live for money still make investments, create jobs, pay taxes and donate to charity (to avoid taxes). It's hard to see how someone who lives only for orgasms is benefiting society though. Sure, supposing they do something that isn't harmful to acquire the money, and don't do anything harmful with the money. That discounts the vast majority of such people, because it's easier to make money as a parasite. I *still* can't respect them, because they need a financial incentive to help other people. Someone who lives for orgasms could benefit society by making high-quality porn /s

>>47286 >Someone who lives for orgasms could benefit society by making high-quality porn People who were perverts, like the Mukhannathun, where usually general entertainers, like musicians. I think that somebody who lives for orgams could also find fulfillment through other channels, like creativity, which is also linked with "sexuality" in Buddhism. There's also sublimation as well, which is a Psychological Defense Mechanism where somebody uses their sexual drives to motivate them to accomplish non-sexual intellectual or artistic pursuits, which is a mature way to handle these thoughts, rather than repression and "Intellectualization".

>>47286 >That discounts the vast majority of such people, because it's easier to make money as a parasite. Sure the easiest way to make money is to be a parasite on the socialist welfare state. But if you want to make more than the bare minimum then you need to actually sell something people want to buy. >I *still* can't respect them, because they need a financial incentive to help other people. I'm not sure why I'm supposed to care who you respect but why is this worse than other incentives? Whether it's because someone shares your DNA or you gain social credit or an ego boost. There's basically always an incentive to help other people. >Someone who lives for orgasms could benefit society by making high-quality porn Didn't think of that.

>>47287 >There's also sublimation as well, which is a Psychological Defense Mechanism where somebody uses their sexual drives to motivate them to accomplish non-sexual intellectual or artistic pursuits We're talking about people who want to live their fetish 24/7 by pretending to be the opposite sex. I think that's kind of the opposite of sublimation.

>>47288 >Sure the easiest way to make money is to be a parasite on the socialist welfare state. no, I mean being a parasite like an investment banker or a lawyer or a corporate bureaucrat. >you need to actually sell something people want to buy. oh, my sweet summer child. >I'm not sure why I'm supposed to care who you respect I don't know why either, but you seem to. >but why is this worse than other incentives? because it's untrustworthy. Most other incentives (empathy, kinship, etc.) will reliably point people in the right direction. Meanwhile it is very easy to get in to a situation where the thing that will get you the most money will be fuarrrking someone over.

>>47289 >I think that's kind of the opposite of sublimation. You're correct. It's easier for stupid people or people with low self awareness to just live out their fetish than sublimate. But somebody who lives out the fetish, could *also* have intellectual pursuits regarding the fetish as well, and the one's who are not self aware do it with their intellectualization and explaining away themselves going to the gym or taking feminizing hormones, just unconsciously.

>>47290 maybe more accurately, money can lead to what's called "perverse incentives". An example of a perverse incentive: suppose the government makes a program that rewards businesses for recycling by paying them for throwing out less garbage and recycling more. The corporate bureaucrat responds by throwing things in the recycling bin that aren't recyclable. Nothing good actually happens, but the state bureaucrat can confidently say that his recycling program works, and the corporate bureaucrat can claim ethical profits to the investors.

>>47291 *Actually I guess it's not sublimation because defending it is still way too closely connected to the fetish, and the act of defending is driven by guilt, not the seeking of pleasure.

>>47290 Not sure how to respond to this. You seem upset and didn't really answer anything.

>>47294 ??? did you reply to the wrong post or something?

Anyway, you will never be a woman.

>>47290 >parasite like an investment banker or a lawyer or a corporate bureaucrat This is kind of an autistic argument. Just because you don't understand the role of investment in an economy doesn't mean it's useless. We can probably agree there are jobs that are well paid and provide negative value to society even if we don't agree what they are. Your assertion that it is the "easiest" way to make money (or by implication that it is "easy" to get into that position) can't really be true though. How do you explain the exclusivity of these positions? If being a lawyer is the "easiest" way to make money then how come everyone doesn't do it? If there is some kind of barrier that most people can't cross then how does it count as "easy"? >oh, my sweet summer child. I'll take this as an admission that you can't defend your position. >because it's untrustworthy. Most other incentives (empathy, kinship, etc.) will reliably point people in the right direction. "The right direction" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. In other words money is inherently immoral because that's your worldview. >it is very easy to get in to a situation where the thing that will get you the most money will be fuarrrking someone over. Give an example a situation where money causes you to fuarrrk someone over. Now replace "money" with another incentive. Do you really get a different answer without changing any other variables?

>>47312 Not him but your autism power level is simply too low to understand investors arent needed. If you remove the richest guy the price simply drops and next one can afford same thing. Worse the way fractional banking works they arent even investing with money they own - they print money and pump up inflation and debt which is paid by you working more for less. Let me paint the whole picture. 1. you save 100k to buy a house 2. bank has 100k from you. Fractional banking says bank can now lend 1m. 3. Investor takes 1m and buys out all your potential 100k homes. 4. you cant afford a home for 100k but hey just buy the investors home for 200k on credit from bank 5. you now pay credit to bank because they could create money from thin air to live in a home you wont own for years as they bought it out under you with their printed money. Its a scam. I think some of the old rockefellas said that if people understood finance they would all hang the guys at the top immediatly.

>>47312 >Give an example a situation where money causes you to fuarrrk someone over. Now replace "money" with another incentive. Do you really get a different answer without changing any other variables? Okay. Suppose I'm a liquidator and I make my money by buying a company, firing everyone, selling the equipment, and pocketing the profits thereby gained. Now suppose that instead of getting money, a woman is inexplicably attracted to that behavior itself, and not the money/power associated with it. Well, there's plenty of fish in the sea who aren't obviously nuts.

>>47312 >Your assertion that it is the "easiest" way to make money I never said it was "easiest", I said it was "easier" than doing something worthwhile, such as art or becoming a captain of industry.

OP here I was going to say something, but I've changed my mind. Anyway, fuarrrk people who force their loved ones, strangers, acquaintances, to play along with their fetish delusions.

ITT: people think transgenderism is a fetish.

>>47594 https://theestablishment.co/japanese-cartoon-porn-helped-me-understand-my-trans-identity-d5bba16cdaf3/index.html

>>47596 >I merely need to find one example and my case is proven!

>>47597 This contains more than one example. And if you are trans and on Lainchan, you are probably an AGP. Very manly thing to do, Lainchan is basically a sausage party.

>>47598 Wow. Some totally-legitimate examples from a book. What next, you're going to bring up strawman sockpuppets on Twitter or an obvious plant like Yaniv?

>>47600 Why do you need to jerk yourself off to fantasies of being a bimbo? Why can't you have better fantasies like imagining yourself as a chubby tiger guy? Or a Beast Fighter Wrestler?

>>47600 >obvious plant like Yaniv Yaniv is what a malignantly individualistic society and culture spawns. He's from the North-West coast as well, most malignantly individualistic culture within America. If he were somewhere else [like a collectivist society] he would know that this is a fetish that needs to be kept hidden within fantasy and secret. Same could be said of the "Twitter strawman sockpuppets".

oh cool now it's a thread about twitter trannies, a very important topic.

>>47603 Was that not implied by the OP? >>47600 If it can happen at all, then it is worth investigating.

>>47605 >Was that not implied by the OP? I thought OP was talking about actual fetish soykaf, like people who take hormones to lactate and stuff.

AGP has long been discredited. Basing your beliefs about trans people's motivations is like basing your beliefs about men's motivations on Freud's discredited idea that all men want to bang their mom. >>47266 >not punk Gender nonconformity and sexual liberation are both well associated with punk culture through out its entire history.

>>48120 You seriously deny it? I've met several self-described AGPs and they definitely fit the description 100%. You really think men don't exist who would transition because of a fetish of seeing themselves as women? Look at all of the other fetishes men can have. You've never seen sissy hypnosis porn? This is really your one exception of depravity that you think is impossible?

>>48120 >AGP has long been discredited. Has it been discredited? Or has it been censored out of the conversation by powerful interests? There is a difference. >Gender nonconformity and sexual liberation are both well associated with punk culture through out its entire history. Punk is about opposing the establishment. Who exactly are you opposing by going along with what big pharma and mainstream media and academia and liberal politicians are all telling you is cool?

>>48122 >>48121 Okay, let me clarify a bit because if this is left open-ended the discussion will get nowhere. AGP in the purest sense (man who gets horny crossdressing or imagining himself as a woman) exists. AGP as a primary, causal motivation for transitioning has been discredited. Even in Blanchard's original research on it, he notes that transwomen who he categorizes as agp and who did experience sexual arousal related to crossdressing prior to transitioning will usually lose sexual interest in it during transition and yet will continue living as trans despite no longer getting sexual gratification from it - if the sexual gratification was the reason to be a woman and it's gone, these people would stop transitioning. Contrary to AGP, It is well established that alleviating gender dysphoria is the primary motivating factor for the overwhelming majority of transpeople. Ask a random transwoman why she transitioned and you're going to hear "being a man made me want to kill myself" a lot more often than you'll hear "being a woman makes it easier to cum." That's not to say you won't be able to find some transwomen who identify as AGP -of course you can, just like you can find men who really do want to fuarrrk their moms - but the overwhelming majority of transwomen are not motivated by AGP to transition. >sissy hypnosis porn In my experience, the only people I've met who are into that are cismen. Technically they are AGP but they're not trans. Do you have any information on what percentage of sissy hypnosis consumers are trans, and what percent of the trans community are into sissy hypnosis? > has it been censored out of the conversation by powerful interests no, clearly it has not since we're discussing it, Blanchard is still a practicing academic, and you can find discussions of agp all over the place, including politics, feminist discussion, and academia. >punk For one, I pointed out that gender nonconformity and sexual liberation are associated with punk culture historically. Punk has been around for much longer than than those things have been acceptable, and as such they have become a part of punk culture over its entire existence. As such, they are both a huge part of modern punk culture. Most importantly, "punk is just opposite whatever the mainstream view is" has never been true.

>>48125 >you're going to hear "being a man made me want to kill myself" a lot more often than you'll hear "being a woman makes it easier to cum." What do you think this is proving except that people would rather admit to having a sympathetic mental disorder than admit to being perverts? >has been discredited >It is well established >the overwhelming majority I know that's what you want to believe but there's nothing to show that's actually the case. I can just as easily say "the overwhelming majority of are agp and sure one or two of them might have gender dysphoria". >clearly it has not since we're discussing it On a small anonymous imageboard. > you can find discussions of agp all over the place, including politics, feminist discussion, and academia. Discussions? Or people unilaterally denouncing it because that's the "correct" opinion to have? >Most importantly, "punk is just opposite whatever the mainstream view is" has never been true. Is that what I said? I know you're upset but don't strawman.

>>48126 >there's nothing to show that's actually the case I meant you have nothing to show that's actually the case. Your only "evidence" so far is that trannies won't admit it if you ask them.

My opinion is that lewd and sexuality-promoting threads do not belong on Lainchan. Not out of prudishness or puritanism, but because it does not fit the tone and culture of the board, and because it is the extreme opposite of counter-cultural, and because the topic has repeatedly been used to degrade board cultures and human cultures. Degradation does not belong on Lainchan. I am not starting a debate, I am filtering this thread now.

It's much hotter to bed a natural girl than a bimbo, if you ask me. Also I don't believe sex to be a goal of anything at all, hence the absolute psychological degradation of nowadays. The more you focus on lewdness, the more exaggerated and unnatural it gets. We're already sculpting bodies for pleasure and the result is in the pics. I believe that this much of unnecessary guilt is due to lack of simplicity. Sex is so simple and nice if you think about it.

>>48413 >It's much hotter to bed a natural girl than a bimbo, if you ask me. Cause you can respect a peer more than a servant and that makes it a higher priced catch.

I'm pretty sure men don't want to fap to their cute female selves, they just want the attention, the sex, or the pass to be an IRL anime cutie they didn't get as men because they were below average or too scarred for that role. That is the main reason why trans people started to be a thing, and 99% of "gender dysphoria" can be cured with fixing past trauma and putting the person in an environment where they can have a fulfilling human life, including the honesty from close friends and family to say "dude, you're a guy". Of course, society can't deliver that and neither can medical businesses like your therapist, so it prevails and is taken seriously.

>>48449 Speak for yourself. In my case it's a profound sense of disappointment with my reflection and general physicality. > I'm pretty sure men don't want to fap to their cute female selves, If you're going to have a body it might as well be one you like yourself, right? You're the one who'll have to deal with it 24/7 after all. > or the pass to be an IRL anime cutie they didn't get as men because they were below average or too scarred for that role Not sure what you mean by this. > they just want the attention Eh... being noticed as cute would be both good and bad. Validating the very things you'd like about yourself would be nice. On the other hand, if people don't notice you and don't talk to you, you don't have to talk to them. > the sex I'm honestly more interested in solo options. Much less trouble than maintaining relationships. > fixing past trauma None to mention, sorry chummer. > putting the person in an environment where they can have a fulfilling human life On this soykafhole of a planet? Sure, might as well pray for salvation it'll work about as well. Things are going to get worse before they get better and I don't have the lifespan to see them get better. > dude, you're a guy Yeah, just another boring extra disposable unit. And one flatly boring to look at and to physically be, at that. Relatively fit, but that's mostly to avoid it hampering me as I go about my daily life. I'm not even deluding myself that I'll be able to get any of that changed within my lifetime. I fuarrrked up my rolls at character gen and that's it. Better luck next time (if there's such a thing). So that's life. 60~80something years of self-disappointment, ignoring your self as much as possible in favor of hobbies that allow you to focus beyond (like coding) and ignoring the awareness of exercise. The idea of physical intimacy just sounds like a bad joke. Why would I bother when it'd leave me more disappointed than happy?

>>48450 >you're going to have a body it might as well be one you like yourself, right? You've probably worked this out already but "I like girls therefor I should make myself look like a girl" is not actually a winning strategy.

>>48450 >In my case it's a profound sense of disappointment with my reflection and general physicality. >[No trauma] to mention, sorry chummer. >Yeah, just another boring extra disposable unit. And one flatly boring to look at and to physically be, at that. Relatively fit, but that's mostly to avoid it hampering me as I go about my daily life. That doesn't compute, viewing half of the population, yourself included, as "disposable units" must have been caused by some traumatic event/events. Maybe if you'd fix that, you would not want to be a woman anymore?

>>48455 >iewing half of the population, yourself included, as "disposable units" must have been caused by some traumatic event/events It's kind of an inescapable fact of life. Men go to war, not women. Women go to the lifeboats first, and if there is room left over then men can go. A man is never allowed to hit a woman. Eggs are simply more valuable than sperm. Read Seveneves for example (Seven Eves, not Adams). In the near future the world will be destroyed by a cosmic event. How do you save the human race? By sending women and jars of frozen sperm into space. Ultimately men are expendable.

>>48456 You forget who makes that decision - fellow men. Your worth is your usefulness. Other men are only good as a work horses while women are better used in bed than for war. Also such fiction is bullshit. Anyone in power gonna go harem route cause they can. You dont need 21 bitches in a bunker, 20+you will do just fine.

>>48458 >You forget who makes that decision - fellow men. Women decide which men they mate with. The only thing men can do is compete with each other to be the best provider and protector for the woman who choose them. >Neal Stephenson >bullshit >cyberpunk themed chan Bold.

>>48458 >Anyone in power gonna go harem route cause they can That's actually part of the book. Another group digs underground and forms an ultra patriarchal society. Spoiler alert though, the society were man can just rape women instead of competing to win their affections ends up culturally and technologically retarded.

>>48460 >Women decide which men they mate with. only kinda true in the west with manchildren. If you are a bit pushy you can get them to bed even if they regret it later and their decision for marriage is based on criteria like wealth which means if i control your wealth i control who they will fuarrrk. And thats also ignoring forced marriage/ mail order / etc. elsewhere. >>48461 >in my fiction women win, men fail >only successful societies irl were all ruled by men

>>48462 >manchildren idiot , neoteny makes life more gainful .

>>48463 lack of mental growth is not neotony the modern westerner has less test than a 60year old from 40 years ago. Its a generation of mental infants with no backbone.

>>48462 >only successful societies irl were all ruled by men You are measuring the wrong thing. Only successful societies irl were based on chivalry. Literal rape cultures like arabs and indians fail to keep up with the west because men competing with each other for status and wealth is what pushes civilization forward. If you can just use force or arranged marriages to get women then there is no incentive to improve yourself as a man.

>>48465 I think you are reaching out too far. Both of these cultures were the most advanced in certain times and saying they fell behind for few years because all that drives history is men trying to impress women and that couldn't happen there successfully is a stretch.

>>48465 You are always competing for power. Power is a perpetual competition and arranged marriages are a meat market where the best goes to the most powerful.

>>48467 >Power is a perpetual competition and arranged marriages are a meat market where the best goes to the most powerful. Where do you think the bobs and vegana meme comes from. The country with the highest rate of arranged marriages is also the country universally mocked for desperate incompetent men. Put 2 and 2 together dude.

>>48471 Same country you import workers from to replace your local ones and same country that produces half your critical soykaf. Maybe don't base your world view around memes.

>>48454 Yes. I noted the impossibility in my closing comment. At least as far as technology likely to exist in my lifespan goes. >>48455 Others addressed what I meant. The rest of the line was my focus at time of writing, but still works. Some are happy deluding themselves and lying to themselves. What I've read up tells me it's far from good-enough. So disappointment & discontent, hobbies to distract myself and escapism are the way to go.

>>48476 Are you just upset or do you actually think that was a counter argument to what was said?

>>47222 I dont use lainchan very often but is this board usually like this? A few things of why this post really confuses me. So, the biggest thing is this seems like advocation for a complete denial of will. To some extent, i get arguing that in certain instances, but it doesnt make sense you advocate against "conforming" but also advocate "succumbing to being a sex machine". Thats like . . . the most conformist pessimistic position i can think of. Im guessing a lot of this is you think these fetishes and stuff are the closest to ecstasy and pleasure is the highest goal in life, hedonism, etc, sure. But i really dont get the part of assuming that peoples sexual inclinations have to be what make them happy in life. You even mention guilt, but just say . . . "no done be guilty just do more sex"? The most anti-conformist thing to do here is recognise that really primitive biological pleasure receptors and complexes arent the highest goal in life, and the much better thing to do i would think is not to "conform" to conforming yourself to this restrictions. Im not really that into cyberpunk (mostly because i dont know very much of it. Id like to learn more though), but from even a cymerpunk perspective that you mention, i would think acknowledging that we live in certain material and sexual conditions (which can be compared to material and technological conditions of society), realising that the norm and conformity that everyone has been doing is like kicking dead whales down the beach, and moving past that? Maybe its more like neofuturism than cyberpunk, but isnt the logical conclusion to be untrustworthy of the promises, allures, instant gratifications, and move past them? Im not advocating becoming more idealist than anything, and im not gonna deny that a lot of times we shoudnt be so stoic and allow ourselves to experience the world for the potential it gives us (and with technology, exceed the human conditions of traditional structures, poverty, biases). But this post seems like the exact opposite of that and just surrendering that "humans are like this, give up your freedom and embrace it. At least youll trick your seratonin receptors into thinking youre happy". Seems kinda contradictory imo, but im interested in the thought process behind posting this is

>>48515 nietzsche's the last man vs the over man. the use of technology for altering ourselves should be life affirming - for purposes of strength, beauty, creativity, freedom. yet much of the discourse now centers around a denial of the human and a mechanisation of its biology and cognition. this is why sexuality is promoted in its perverted hedonistic form. it allows humans to be easily controlled through simple stimulus-reward, and saps the creative energy preventing any challenge to the existing order. then one is surrounded by these weak-willed husks that have no understanding that their desires and identity are already shaped for them, and not some expression of their real self.

>>8491 If you werent so contrarian you would understand the point. I can find soibois in us worse than your indian example and i can find indians better than most us people. Looking at a few examples at the bottom of the barrel doesnt validate country a > country b.

>>48529 for >>48491 ate a number

>>48529 I didn't want to waste time on a response if 5 seconds after posting you realized how dumb that was but ok. >Same country you import workers from to replace your local ones Democracies import immigrants because 1 person = 1 vote and it is easier for politicians to please someone arriving from a 3rd world country than it is to please an existing citizen who already has a high standard of living. Pointing out that a country has a high number of emigrants only proves how soykaf those people are at governing themselves. >same country that produces half your critical soykaf The fact that their society is still at a point where human labor is cheaper than machines is not really proving the point you think it is either. >Looking at a few examples at the bottom of the barrel I don't think I'm looking at the bottom of the barrel. Stereotypes exist because of statistical reality. If you want anecdotes I can tell you every female indian engineer I've worked with had an arranged marriage and every male indian engineer had an arranged marriage or was desperately alone. The over reliance on arranged marriages is a legit problem in their culture.

>>48541 us in first place only exists in its present state because of the french allowing to fight brits and then getting lucky in ww2 and getting nuke scientists to immigrate to us. If they went into another country everyone would be at said other countries mercy. Its not economic might but military might that fell into its lap that enabled the current state. $ wouldnt be lead currency otherwise and without that everything else would be impossible.

>>48541 >Democracies import immigrants because 1 person = 1 vote Do you have any idea how long it takes to earn citizenship and voting rights in the vast majority of western nations? Voting blocks can take decades to establish, and might not vote the way you want. Much easier and faster to rig elections by gerrymandering and voter suppression than to let these people have a vote at all. The reason they cart immigrants in is because they need a permanent underclass of wage slaves who are in no position to object to their mistreatment. Where they can't cart them in fast enough, or inconspicuously enough, they just make the existing population into that underclass.

>>48577 >The reason they cart immigrants in is because they need a permanent underclass of wage slaves who are in no position to object to their mistreatment. Where they can't cart them in fast enough, or inconspicuously enough, they just make the existing population into that underclass. Quite right. I think a lot of the people who deliberately refuse to understand this point are simply terrified of the slightest criticism of capitalism, because it undermines their entire worldview. Easier to demonize The Other than it is to shake off a lifetime of capitalist propaganda.

I would totally do this but I'd need a bigger dick. My soykaf is like 5 inches. I can fix my weight and some of my other issues but really can't do much about the dick.

>>48464 “The degree and kind of a man's sexuality reach up into the ultimate pinnacle of his spirit.” Funny because it was reading Thus Spoke Zarathustra that I finally said 'fuarrrk it' and became a tranner. No shame. Nothing is true, everything is permitted. I can't think of a more ubermensch thing than taking control of your own endochrine system. What the anti-female people get wrong is the future is female. There is no need for mens hormonal energy and bigger muscles. Drones are quickly taking over that roll. Now, a group of testosterone fueled men with AK47s can take over a country as we have seen countless times (vietnam, afghanistan, cuba). But a group of transwomen controlling drones is also a force to be reckoned with. Ultimately, i doubt anybody posting on lainchan is going to belong to the former group. "In some respects, the impatc of these new machines is direct and very obvious. In the West, the decline of heavy industry, the automation of manufacturing, the emergence of the service sector, and the rise of a vast range of new manufacturing and information processing industries have combined to reduce the importance of muscular strength and hormonal energies which were once given such high economic rewards. In their place come demands for speed, intelligence and transferable, interpersonal, and communications skills" Yes, there is HRT leaking into the food and water supply. It is dropping T levels. The people who are most vocal about having a high T, men who talk to each other on podcasts all day. Interpersonal, intelligent and widely skilled men.

>>49550 Aggression is still selected for because risk-taking is required for greater success and so high test men still beat effeminate when it comes to greater achievements. because they are more willing to take risks. Also there's a social aspect. you don't need muscles to beat people up but being fit gets you more respect and thus allows for an easier progress in society. Furthermore training to improve the body also improves the mind. Also side note - more test also can help women without going trans. If you do it right it simply improves health and sex drive without turning you into a guy. Women lose test same as guys with age and other factors and it likewise regulates soykaf so it can be likewise a source of issues.

>>48577 Again, you have the same problem most people do. You think you know so much that you've lost a sense of "why not both?" You invest all of your energy into breaking a case, and absolutely zero into making it work. Extremely poor reasoning, but well dressed.

>>49552 And I say "again" because this is such a pervasive cognitive deficit that I'm almost certain I've said the same thing to you on at least one other occasion.

>>49550 " I can't think of a more ubermensch thing than taking control of your own endochrine system." Your interpretation of ubermensch is hilarious. Future is neither female or male, one can't exist without the other. Although I can understand where you getting it. It's probably because culture right now has a lot of the stereotypical "female" energy (chaos and all of that). Now your idea of testosterone is very naive. Testosterone is not for hypertrophy. Testosterone affects follistatin which inhibit myostatin. In that way yes the testosterone helps hypertrophy. (There are other factors like androgen receptors and so on.) If the genetic engineering was legal we could make a female that has no myostatin and she would be big as Ronni Coleman in his prime. Another thing is female and male brains are different because of hormones. Males have better spatial imagination which will be beneficial for something like piloting a drone. And there are other things that testosterone helps with . Also at some point maybe we won't need pilots. In short testosterone has a lot of roles in human body. Not only bigger muscles. All this female vs male war is just garbage. If you desire to inject yourself with some estrogen ester good for you. I actually think that MtF trans people are another step in "evolution" (I can't find better word for that) because of interesting mix of male and female. Analytical brain but also more emotional. >>49551 Aggression is not determined by level of testosterone. It's common misunderstanding. In a simple words what testosterone does is exaggerating existing behaviors. Thinking that testosterone is some magical compound is very shortsighted. Testosterone don't drive your libido, estrogen does. Of course higher t level will ramp up estrogens. Hormones are very complex. Thinking only about test and not the dozens of others is just naive.

>>49564 > I actually think that MtF trans people are another step in "evolution" (I can't find better word for that) because of interesting mix of male and female. What you're referring to is the divine androgyne. Cults arrived at the same conclusion thousands of years ago. See eg Hollywood.

>>49564 >aggression is not determined by level of testosterone. It's common misunderstanding. In a simple words what testosterone does is exaggerating existing behaviors. >test is not aggression but it amplifies aggression Same for practical use.

>>49568 It amplifies PREEXISTING tendency to aggressive behavior. If you take a very calm person and ramp up his t level to let's say 2000 ng/dl which is super physiological level he won't be suddenly aggressive and hostile. It's all about how testosterone affects the amygdala.

>>49571 This was a comparison on population scale not about individuals. That's why its the same for practical use - its a given its preexisting in a group.

>>49552 > You invest all of your energy into breaking a case, and absolutely zero into making it work. This is a typical thing that people do when they hear bullshit.

>>49592 Really stupid reply, but thank you for proving my point further.

>>49592 although bullshit exists, we cannot be certain that the truth exists. We can only see things in our relation to them.

>>49596 indeed, this is why it makes sense to believe things are bullshit rather than the other way around

>>47222 You should take a look at a manga called Aku no Hana (if you're into anime, of course) >>47223 Read Adam Smith and Friedrich Hayek, people pursuing different individual goals was a prerequisite for the development of our civilization. Each one of us pursuing diverse goals that at first appear egotistical actually end up helping a lot of unknown people to have the means to pursue their also unknown and apparently egotistical goals in a complex chain of human cooperation that is the only effective way to manage our resources as a whole. BTW, it's funny how people in this place are obsessed with "non-conforming". You people need to accept that we are all NPCs, there's nothing glowing special about any of us. Embrace it, anons.

>>49616 Which is a form of lazy black and white thinking. Which means you don't care about the truth, you just care about how you feel, and what you need to feel is that you exactly where you are. Simple as. You're not a thinker, you're a feeler.

>>49640 >that you exactly where you are. know exactly*

>>49640 >Which is a form of lazy black and white thinking. what about it is black and white? Bullshit is a spectrum. >You're not a thinker, you're a feeler. You would think that, but your constant stream of insults isn't bothering me in the slightest.

>>49635 >You people need to accept that we are all NPCs, there's nothing glowing special about any of us. Anyone who browses lainchan is probably off baseline to some degree

>>49635 >Read Adam Smith and Friedrich Hayek, people pursuing different individual goals was a prerequisite for the development of our civilization. Adam Smith I can forgive because he was talking about this when you had the rise of markets which back then in large part were some butcher and baker exchanging things in each other without any huge crime being commited. At worst you say the rise of industry, but then you had the excuse that in the long run if some people will suffer in them, we will produce enough will that it will be worth it. Hayek on the other hand lived well in times where you could see what kind of wealth inequality and despotic power that has caused. So fuarrrk him. If he was alive today he probably would shout how google is the pinnacle of civilization. >You people need to accept that we are all NPCs, there's nothing glowing special about any of us. Embrace it, anons. You are only an NPC if you choose to be one. I'm not saying you should be special for special sake, but we all can take a step back, think about our actions and what they might cause, imagine different possibilities, question authority. In the end I don't even think egoist are really happy, because while they have lot of small pleasures, they live a very lonely and meaningless lives.

>>49574 >This was a comparison on population scale not about individuals. Fair enough. I just wanted to point out the incredible complexity of hormones and interconnections between them and other factors. Like for example in case of aggression mix of low serotonin and high testosterone (mostly DHT which is way androgenic than just test) will cause hostile behavior. But overall — yes males on average are more aggressive than females and testosterone (probably mostly prenatal levels of testosterone which has big impact on brain and sexual dimorphism) is responsive to the large extent. But as I said earlier, this soykaf is very complex and human behavior could be tweaked by other things to produce more specific outcome.

>>47222 I respect guys who are tweaking their bodies to achieve the image of a girl. There's quite a bit of artistry in that. You need to put a lot of effort and be ready for some sacrifices to do that. I myself work in a different direction of aesthetics, but there was a time that I also fantasized about being a gurl. Although I realise that it's not I want to become but who I want to be with, as the mix of female and male is for me so perfect that I could call it divine. Keep it up, guys, there is no better feeling than turning your body into what you desire. Enjoy the process, in the end, accomplishment will be fulfilling. And it doesn't matter what your goal is. You want to look like greek statue or goth girl, the point is you embrace who you are and manifest your persona in the materialistic way too. The thing to remember is to understand what you are and not what you think you are based on the things you consume. Because you can be influenced by some of that soykaf quite deeply. And only when you match your inner with your outer, that's what produce the feeling of completes. Not that this feeling will come all at ones. More likely, with every right step, you will get a sense of finding your way out of the darkness.

>>48450 >>48125 >>48483 **BEGIN ESSAY BLOCK** I mean, is being female really an alternative to being disposable? Are you any less disposable now? Now surely, a woman has value as an object of sexual desire. But you know well coming from the world of men that many are considered by a wide swath of males to be cocksleeves. And the cravings men hold for women to live with and cherish together (romantic and companionship love) are felt pretty broadly across all genders. The intrinsic value argument is fundamentally flawed. You're still meat for the market, just a different market that you figure you might just enjoy more. But you lose out on the privileges offered to the male fleshbots to gain those of the female ones. Even worse though, the cruelties of fate deny you the primitive basis for the constructed "value" of womanhood. Granted, most of the valued feminine qualities can be acquired with hormones, training, and cosmetic surgery. Reproductive value is eliminated however, unless you froze your sperm prior to pharmacological transition. Unfortunately, it comes back again to the question of why you consider yourself to be of such low worth that you should, or even could be "upgraded". Gender dysphoria is merely another manifestation of depression and suicidality with obsessive and compulsive characteristics. Like anorexia and bulimia. Hating yourself as a man is hating yourself via an intermediary, your body. Like thinking you're fat. I will admit that if transition alleviates these feelings, it is the right thing to do. If you cannot stop hating yourself in this way, we may as well treat the "cause" for the sake of preserving your life from such torment. But as any transgendered person will tell you, transition only alleviates dysphoria, never cures it. Because your chromosomes, hormones and appendages do not amount to a causal basis for self-loathing, but are the proxy you bear it by. I do not discount that in time the social barriers will weaken and widespread "feminization" of human sexual behaviour is possible. It may become easier to find men in the future who want to suck a woman's dick and so on. But it seems like an awful painful climb if you can avoid it. If your motive is sexual, you have poor odds. If your motive is driven by a sense of identity and affinity for so-called "feminine" modes of experience and expression, I have sympathy for you. It doesn't prove that gender is real or that "the ol' switcheroo" is a concept that individuals in a primitive society unburdened by this late-capitalist hellscape could imagine. Forgoing sexual intimacy with another person in favour of self-indulgence is undeniably based. But when the choice is driven by despair or a scarred indifference, it is not a free choice at all. It is symptomatic of a miserable and isolated mind which trembles at the thought of contact as if it were to shatter. At some time in prehistory, there were no men, no women. No tops and bottoms, blue and strong or pink and cute. Only pleasure, pain, desire, and fear. Transgenderism is the gateway to uncovering these truths, but never mistake it for the final destination. Sadly, your identity will be recorded as a footnote of history as humanity unravels itself in its rediscovery of itself as the wild and ineffable organism it is. **ESSAY COMPLETE**

>>49689 Personally I would be interested in it if the technology were more advanced than it currently is, and if such sexual practices were not so physically dangerous. That's for the kids born later in the century, though.

>>49654 >but then you had the excuse that in the long run if some people will suffer in them, we will produce enough will that it will be worth it We do produce more, and it is worth it. >wealth inequality Still more equal than before and than in any totalitarian autocracy. >despotic power Hayek was in favor of decentralization of resources and power. However, while growing older he developed a certain spite for democracies, and he was wrong. But "The Fatal Conceit" is a masterpiece, he describes that property, liberty and justice were prerequisites to establish a human cooperation order that evolved (in methods analogous to those in biological evolution) into our current market system as an spontaneous, auto-generated order, which was essential to the development of our civilization. >But we all can take a step back, think about our actions and what they might cause Everyone does that, this doesn't make you special in any way. Everyone has their own thoughts and objectives that are influenced by their nature and the culture they absorb, we can never escape it. "Non-conform" as much as you want, you're still just another engine on a machine we never chose to built. >I don't even think egoist are really happy That was not what I meant, we still need to satisfy certain instincts (like solidarity) and it's good to do so. What I meant was that living "to make money" was what allowed us to survive and prosper, and perhaps there is some value in it.

>>49689 These are great points but in the end it doesn't matter, how many men actually "pass" well enough? Most transwomen just end up with other transwomen because no one wants them longterm, sad but true. Unless you're a tiny asian ladyboy then it's not going to work out. Having female sexual value isn't all, unless you just want hookups. Females are valued long term for their emotional intelligence, household skills, and social skills.

>>47222 >artist nuked his pixiv >nothing more in that style on his new one >no collections available goddamnit, every time

>>49709 >We do produce more, and it is worth it. I don't know if it's worth it. I would say lot of people who were forced to live in factories and work all day in smog with the risk of getting killed by massive machinery didn't think it was worth it. They just didn't have a choice. Do people in third world nations who live in same conditions today think it's worth it? Do people in first world who lost their jobs because that work was outsourced think it's worth it? Do even first world desk wagies, who all things considered live a good life, but also a very boring and tedious one, which doesn't allow them to spend time with their families or even something worthwhile think it's worth it? And you know, this also is a religious belief and one of the worst kind. In the same way a religious figure justified sending people to war to die, frequently for nothing, under the idea that it's god's will. The same thing happens here under the banner of "more will be produced", no matter that majority of the created wealth goes to people who have so much of it they barely even notice it. >Still more equal than before and than in any totalitarian autocracy. While true in some regards, doesn't it also lead to even worse totalitarianism down the line? For all the power a lord might have over someone, he didn't spy on everything you were talking like phones do today. He didn't try to build machinery which might make your labor useless, thereby making you lose the only source of power you have against him. Because today we have more machinery ready to bring a more despotic rule than USSR ever had, with only thing against it being the goodwill that no one will use it for that. Beyond that there is no serious form of power in place to prevent that. >Hayek was in favor of decentralization of resources and power. While I understand why liberals (I'm talking about your kind) like that, and I respect it. Any society of finance and money can't by definition bring that. Since in a world where everything depends on the banknote, the ones who can grow and hold power are the ones with banknotes. It enforces itself which makes sure that those with power gain more power which is as illiberal as you can get. For what you want to happen, there must be a robust and democratic separation between finance and the political power. >Everyone does that, this doesn't make you special in any way. Everyone has their own thoughts and objectives that are influenced by their nature and the culture they absorb, we can never escape it. "Non-conform" as much as you want, you're still just another engine on a machine we never chose to built. While I might never escape things that influenced me completely, the idea that we can't build, to put in your words, an other engine for the machine is just wrong. Obviously I'm biased, I don't have god-like knowledge to know everything that could happen, my culture, genetics and subconscious mind steer me in one way that I'm frequently blind too. But like I can said I can imagine how things might go if 'x' happens, or doesn't happen. I can imagine different possibilities. The problem isn't in thought, because that with a lot of work can be quite robust and I believe I can have control over it. The problem is sacrifice. Because to do what you preach requires you give up something. It might be comfort or you might get socially rejected. But I believe that some things might be worth it, and the issue is that without anyone standing in line to protect what we hold dear, you allow others to exploit that. And the more of us are ready to defend and fight for a better world, the less anyone of us has to do individually. >What I meant was that living "to make money" was what allowed us to survive and prosper, and perhaps there is some value in it. But can't this be said about anything? It's not a stretch to say the same about for instance slavery. My point is that if something happened, even if it was in many ways terrible, but it had some good about it, doesn't mean we should hold in high regard. Autocracy build beautiful palaces and Cathedrals, which to be build required lot of study in sciences and art. Yet we have realized that it's not a good system to have, and that the good things about it we can take with us to the next step while hopefully abandoning the bad parts. I am saying more or less the same thing.

>>49714 I'm inclined to believe that much of those womanly qualities are memes. Although it raises interesting questions. I don't believe in hard biological determinism, nor do I believe that sexual identity can be reduced down to this "it's culture, stupid" hand-waving that the academics have popularized. I've heard it said that neurologically, the variance between sexes is smaller than that between individuals. But that's just the brain. Our species has a unique upbringing, like any other, which charts a path of selective pressures and haphazard adaptations. We can be sexually attracted by scent and a few other more "deterministic" factors. The interesting part is finding out where the line between biological nudges and human culture lies. Primitive cultures globally converge with reasonable reliability around a cluster of attributes we might call "patriarchal" "racist" or "cis-heteronormative". When you realize that culture can be regarded as technology, and that these technologies advantaged those who adopted them, our present situation becomes more clear. Ironically, it's believed that the more "civilized" we became, the more "patriarchal, racist, heteronormative" we became. The genetic basis may be there, but our cultural technology and its development certainly have until now enhanced the differences drastically. We still can't decide where the biology ends and technology begins. That's important for our understanding of "gender" because technology, well it becomes obsolete with time and the arrival of new and disruptive rivals. To your other point, I think that in the future, nobody will need to "pass" as anything. It will likely become more accepted for males to appear and behave more female-like, and they will likely get more partners than they do now. With no hormones, chest hair and adam's apples and all. Here's the kicker that some trans folks online are pulling their hair out over already, the realization dawning slowly: if everyone is trans, is anyone? Gatekeeping and accusations of gatekeeping the identity have grown exponentially since about the mid 2010s. I interpret this as a sign that it is slowly becoming mainstreamed, and therefore, meaningless. Which it always was of course. I heard through a PA system at a retail outlet an announcement declaring that the retailer now has a pronoun policy. If that isn't the definition of pedestrian soykaf (I typed that), I don't know what is.

>>49714 I'm a straight guy who'd probably pump one out into a femboy if it were in the right place and time, possibly a little less than sober. And that's an attitude that the young'uns no doubt are even more disposed to. Once they start admitting it in public, things will change. I'd reckon up to 50% of the difficulties trans people have in getting long-term partners is the "can't-take-them-to-my-parents" factor. Not wanting to be seen in public with a trans person who doesn't pass like a Porsche on the far left.

>>49761 You're failing to understand the main point of my argument, quoting from The Fatal Conceit "To understand our civilization, one must appreciate that the extended order resulted not from human design or intention but spontaneously: it arose from unintentionally conforming to certain traditional and largely moral practices, many of which men tend to dislike, whose significance they usually fail to understand, whose validity they cannot prove, and which have nonetheless fairly rapidly spread by means of an evolutionary selection – the comparative increase of population and wealth – of those groups that happened to follow them." Adam Smith didn't came and said "hey everyone, let's start doing this thing here and we're going to be like super rich and stuff", he made an retrospective analysis on the complexity of the economic system, it's mechanisms and how we benefit from them. >He didn't try to build machinery which might make your labor useless That's an anti-progress mentality heavily propagated on Lainchan by those who unironically fell for the Unabomber meme. I will keep this short and simple: the industrial revolution and the progress that came with it heavily improved our lives, we have machines today that can breath for you if your lung fails for fuarrrk sake. Anyone who considers death and pain to be bad things can see how the industrial revolution made thing better for each and every single one of us. >the ones who can grow and hold power are the ones with banknotes >robust and democratic separation between finance and the political power. Well, I tend to agree (capitalist boogieman aside). Liberalism and democracy are fit to each other. However, neoliberals such as Hayek and Friedman were known for wishing to declare certain economic standards as laws that would limit the power of the government on the economic system. I would agree with them, but with some regards, I will take my country (Brazil) as an example with two recent measures that fit on that category: The "Roof of spendings" (poor translation, sorry) that was a law passed by the Michel Temer government that was supposed to impose a limitation on how much the government can spend so, you know, retarded presidents don't go around hoarding debt after debt and the Central Bank Independence (Central Bank = FED in the US). The Roof of Spending was broken as soon as a another retarded president was elected because the population simply didn't care enough to do something about it, but the Central Bank Independence is still strong because brazilians fuarrrking HATE inflation, we already have a pretty big inflation rate (almost hitting 9%) because our coin is losing value, but the president CAN'T interfere in the Central Bank and if he starts doing that the population would claim his head on a stick. We can only impose these economic standards with the support fro the people, if they were just passed without the approval of the people the next president can simply revoke it. >But can't this be said about anything? No, it can just be said about things we didn't built ourselves like the economic and moral system.