"I would love to die from the AstraZeneca vaccine!" - covid discussion thread 4.0

shamelessly stolen from the last thread: >"I would love to die from the AstraZeneca vaccine!" (Excerpts from Article translated from Norwegian) https://www.tv2.no/a/13886747/ >I'm sure that sounds very brutal. But someone has to be sacrificed in the war against the corona. That's the way it is in every wars. This time it may well be me. >But even if it turns out that it's the AstraZeneca vaccine that has poured out blood clots or brain haemorrhages, I have no doubt: if I get the offer, I'll take it anyway. >For, sorry to put it so straight forward: Someone must be sacrificed for the rest to be safe. >That's the way it is in every wars. >Now it is one year since the government introduced the most restrictive measures since World War II. >And we're still at war. Against the corona. And our only weapon is vaccines. Vaccines are simply the way out of the trenches. The road to peace. Once more we open the gates to a discussion that is in many other places nothing more than yet another indication of lunacy. Because asking questions about the safety of something we do not know the safety of is insane. Delusional. Dumb. Stupid. Is humanity a failed experiment? A cancer? A disease? Previously we had the assumption that a healthy looking person is healthy, but today without proof you are to be treated as another source of the plague. This narrative permeates all our media. Where did we go wrong? At which point do we change our tracks? What is needed to abolish this ongoing disregard for rights of an individual? Just a note: there is another thread up, but that thread concentrates more closely on the specific point of dealing with vaccination requirements

A vector of discussion I would love to see a debate about: >PCR tests Is our usage of PCR tests flawed? There is quite an odd (old) video of Kary Mullis, the inventor of PCR technology, discussing misinterpretation of PCR tests. People who are completely disagreeing with almost anything with regards to the mainstream opinion on things related to the pandemic are posting his face all over LBRY (not youtube, because censors). The specific conversation I want to refer to is https://odysee.com/@EduardoCorrochio:4/kary-mullis-explains-the-pcr-test:e. I think this is very, very curious. Kary Mullis, sadly, died in 2019, of pneumonia. I believe he died naturally, but this is another topic that can be debated. Apparently he had some beef with Fauci (of all people) when they were both part of some sort of program on HIV. For people who want to disregard this footage of the inventor of PCR talking about it, another point to be discussed are PCR cycles. As far as I am aware, the WHO has in the past and still does recommend cycle counts that are too high. Too high to be useful. They have been adjusted over time, but to my understanding they are still too high. A resource that goes into this in-depth (but sadly only cites french sources) is https://www.globalresearch.ca/covid-19-rt-pcr-how-to-mislead-all-humanity-using-a-test-to-lock-down-society/5728483. While this looks legit to a layman like me, I'm aware that it does present quite a radical outlook and dark implications. In any case, I think it's clear that cycles are a parameter that can be tweaked to manipulate the (cases|infections|death) numbers. Again, citation needed, but I've read that vaccinated people are tested with lower PCR cycle threshholds, which has even more sinister applications. I would love to see what lainchan has to say, because I feel like I'm completely in the dark.

noone fuarrrking cares and people just want to live their lives it is easier to be a conformist and play along rules than hit your head against everything and anything and it is easy to see that vaccines for flu were planned just like anything and everything that is happening you are a product and noone asks you if you want your tax money to go into colossal corporate pharmacies in quantities that can cover whole population four times over and that is just for one season and they will keep being ordered and you will keep getting told to take them so as long as debt is not paid to the same jew ;read as satanist; pockets are not filled and time is not up for next step as everything in this world including product and living object of big governments so called citizens is to be used and extracted and even talking or arguing about this is as pointless as talking to monkey sure it can provoke some emotions but that is about it as things will keep rolling the way they are scripted to roll and you have no control over it unless resorting to extremes which when mentioned will be faced with force you must be ready to face if you want to bring on change as utter terror is only way of hope for things to midly change their ways or slow down as guys will subcome to pressure

Get a grip OP. It looks like you've been hyperfocusing on smaller issues and hearsay from a literal imageboard and developed a stressful exaggerated reality. If you think those memes are realistic, you're just ignoring the overwhelming majority of outcomes for that fascinating minority. >At which point do we change our tracks? [...] What is needed to abolish this ongoing disregard for rights of an individual? I don't even need to ask which country you're from to know you never really had them. If you're being invaded, your country will probably send you to war regardless of if your consent. Rights are a temporary luxury afforded by your government/s. >Is humanity a failed experiment? A cancer? A disease? Yes but that goes in the climate change thread.

>>46117 > will probably send you to war regardless of if your consent This is why it's important to find some way to disqualify yourself, such as keeping some cutters handy for mutilating a few toes. That'll be cleaner than doing it at bootcamp during as an "accident" during basic training.

>>46114 >noone fuarrrking cares and people just want to live their lives it is easier to be a conformist and play along rules than hit your head against everything and anything Exactly. I went and got this newfangled Janssen Pharmaceuticals/Johnson&Johnson single shot vaccine last week. The reasons are threefold: it's less of a hassle to go outside once, I don't really care about efficacy number and the info on some Jews at my near-demographic getting myocardia from the experimental German mRNA brew just came in. And it so happened, that my waifu spent the better part of last two years perfecting the art of habitual use of powder cocaine, so I said fuarrrk it, I'll gamble on the whole blood clot thing with good ol' adenovirus vector. Seems to be more of a Stacy and Karen problem anyway. Got what from a medical standpoint would be considered extremely high fever for two days, but I actually consider pretty much normal for me - it is just what happens when I come in contact with a new respiratory virus. Just popped some paracetamol candy once in a while and chilled in bed for a whole weekend. I find it more funny than anything, that my organism have the exact same attitude that my conscious mind has. Namely, that it does not consider solving the problem at hand and killing itself to be a meaningfully distinct alternatives. I have had worse experiences after some soykaf speeds like MDPV, or cheap vodka even. But nothing of this actually matters, because what I was given after getting the potion from the Lands of the Fries flowing in my veins is the nice certificate on a shiny, corporate paper, that I can show to any random fascist on a power trip. It is important for me, because I am actually in state-sponsored education still and however fun (if rather unproductive) it was to spend more than a year now living a lifestyle of socially accepted hikki, it unfortunately cannot last much longer. We all know than when I have to actually show up somewhere in autumn this thing will come up, and then I will reach for my cheap, black wallet, show my shiny card and say with a bright smile 'You see? I'm as much of obedient sheep as you are!'. And if I die from this jab or the Kung-Flu, then fuarrrk it, at least all the coke was done beforehand.

Faulty pcr tests, broken prediction models and incorrect responses have been criticized since the whole thing started. Just as much as bigtech and mainstream media buried every possible alternative to the narrative. Feeding money to pharma and poisonous plastic bullshit mask manufactureres and then wonder why they get sick. As >>46114 said, nobody fuarrrking cares. They dont care that they are losing their basic human rights, even the rights to exist in some cases. Nobody almost ever even mentions any of the ongoing consequences of the current cultural and industrial climate. Most people are happy to be given some poison cocktail right into them and not even think of asking whats in it or how it works and then just go back to whatever messed up broken life they lived. Personally i think humanity is done for for good, this whole scamdemic showed to me just how willing people are to just live utter soykaf lifes and think thats how it should be. There is just no hope left for humans, they are too stupid to exist nor do they deserve to and this whole thing is proof of that to me. Everyone pretends its all fine and handy dandy, one day there will come a day where they cant just say things are ok, they will be forced to see just how badly things are fuarrrked.

>>46114 This is possibly the most defeatist take I've seen up until yet. A year ago I would have disagreed, but I'm not so sure now. What exactly would you propose people needed to do to fix it? Overthrow their government? Ted style letters of friendship to pharma people? In any case, you make me depressed. >>46117 I haven't spent a single second in these threads until not too long ago when I stopped giving a fuarrrk. This has affected our lives for too long. >If you think those memes are realistic I agree that they are a bit silly, but I would say they recapitulate important messages each. Don't you agree? >I don't even need to ask which country you're from to know you never really had them It does sound a bit like a murican take, but rest assured, I'm a yuropoor. I agree that a lot of our "rights" we simply aren't afforded, but you can't keep your people domestic if you don't afford them any at all. We've lost a considerable portion of those we had and people are somehow not going to care. >If you're being invaded, your country will probably send you to war regardless of if your consent. Yeah that's the case, but it probably also is for you? >Rights are a temporary luxury afforded by your government/s. I guess it boils down to this... >>46121 >and then I will reach for my cheap, black wallet, show my shiny card and say with a bright smile 'You see? I'm as much of obedient sheep as you are!' My question is, would you not just try and see how far you can go without caving in to this scheme? Are you just that disinterested in fighting it? Where I live, you're not getting it once, you're going to get it once every 9 months (perhaps even 6). I hope I didn't dox myself, but the "booster shots" as they say are a worldwide phenomenon. >And if I die from this jab or the Kung-Flu, then fuarrrk it, at least all the coke was done beforehand. That's a good attitude to have in life. >>46132 >Personally i think humanity is done for for good, this whole scamdemic showed to me just how willing people are to just live utter soykaf lifes and think thats how it should be. >There is just no hope left for humans, they are too stupid to exist nor do they deserve to and this whole thing is proof of that to me. >Everyone pretends its all fine and handy dandy, one day there will come a day where they cant just say things are ok, they will be forced to see just how badly things are fuarrrked. I think this is it. It's scarily easy to find reasons to agree with you. But I can't just give up hope yet, my life has finally grown a bit worthwhile and I cannot accept this soykaf to fuarrrk any of it over. I really hope you are wrong. Thank you for contributing your thoughts lain.

>>46136 >My question is, would you not just try and see how far you can go without caving in to this scheme? Are you just that disinterested in fighting it? Where I live, you're not getting it once, you're going to get it once every 9 months (perhaps even 6). I hope I didn't dox myself, but the "booster shots" as they say are a worldwide phenomenon. Well, as far as I cant know these vaccines itself are not really that weird, at least the adenovirus ones are nott. They already bought it with other people money, so it is not like I sm enabling the corps, because they already got what they wanted, as always. They pushed them through more or less honest three-stage clinical tests what is what usually need to happen with these things, and now they entered what they call postmarket testing. Difference of course being that this time there is strong and global state pressure on being part of the test. At least I have good idea how likely I am to die from the shot in the short term and it's not very likely. Long term, we will see. My friendly neighborhood government is not as bad as yours seems to be, by which I mean incompetent, which is what anybody should want from government. They just want to get it over with and have a chance at next elections. Personally I do not mind thousands of dead geriatrics, but these things tend to anger the people and rile up political opposition. But I do not even think that they push for boosters all that much. Here in the country most of the old farts did not really show up for the shot very eagerly and some of them will probably die from the virus because of it. But the governernment will not coerce them because, as I said, the elections are coming, and secondly alive they're a burden on a pension and healthcare systems. Most of the governments know that the virus is basically a blessing for them in our inflationary, overdebted global economy. Obviously I myself not afraid of virus, the only reason I went for the vaccine is that I will have to deal with opressive public institutions for a little bit more. I have read that some folks are actually selling vaccination cards, but I didnt't seek it out myself. Reported prizes were like 500-600 dollars in the US, but even if I found it cheaper I probably wouldn't consider it worth it. I went out, got the shot, got the fever and I am over it. When they try to make me take more I will probably be in a position to refuse. Politically, I can do nothing with this, and so does everyone else. It is what it is.

If you want absolute individual rights, to the point where your actions can and will hurt others around you, you should leave society and live in an island. If you live in a community, no matter how large or small, you need to have some common decency with the other members of that community. If you live with 10 people, you can't leave the dishes dirty all day and expect someone to clean them for you. You can't soykaf on the floor and leave a turd for others to deal with. There's this need for a basic level of abstraction when dealing with a group of people. You carry your weight, you don't fuarrrk others because of your decisions. The same applies for any spreadable diseases. Your decision affects the health of the whole. Nobody is getting you in a van and giving you a shot, but people absolutely have the right to not want you around if you refuse to take basic health measures. Just as others will not mind. Your individual right doesn't mean you have power over others, you can decide not to take the vaccine, and others can decide that you're not someone they want around because of that. And for questioning the methods of the vaccine, sure, that's what science is. But if you want to be taken seriously, don't use these superficial memes and rehearsed talking points. If you have a specific criticism, go for the jaw, bring your research and factual data. "Somebody else said" is not an argument anyone can discuss, the way you frame your argument people can only agree or disagree with you on absolute terms. You're leaving no room for you to be wrong, there's no logical argument being made. If you want to pick my argument there's a logical progression for why a community has the right not to want someone unvaccinated around, and you can tear it apart if you believe you have a better point, but if i said "Oh yeah somebody said that you should absolutely get vaccinated", then there's no room for anything you see? It's not a conversation at that point because it's not my argumentative standpoint, it's somebody else's.

>>46140 >others can decide that you're not someone they want around because of that Others can think whatever the fuarrrk they want, but if you are denied access to all institutions, what choice do you really have? >The same applies for any spreadable diseases. Your decision affects the health of the whole. I agree. But we have for a long time known which people are vulnerable to covid and practically nowhere did anyone decide to offer support to people in proportion to risk. >if you refuse to take basic health measures Like others in my position, I have received a few vaccines up until now, as well as refresher shots. I don't mind getting vaccinated, if the vaccine isn't brand new and political that is. The companies that developed the vaccines have required that liability be not their problem since before the beginning of development, discussion of vaccines (or alternatives to, like the Ivermectin debate) has been suppressed on many platforms, it's only common sense to be wary, regardless of any evidence for anything at all. >If you have a specific criticism, go for the jaw, bring your research and factual data. The burden of proof is not on people who don't want the vaccine. Moderna and iirc others have failed to establish mRNA vaccines up until now and we still have no clue about long term effects. You can say this is yet another rehearsed talking point, but it's valid. The clinical studies haven't even completed yet and won't for a year or more, depending on the vaccine. The point is just that there is no solid basis for hushing and forcing everyone to get vaccinated. Also, both sides of the discussion revolve around "someone else said" arguments.

>>46142 >I agree. But we have for a long time known which people are vulnerable to covid and practically nowhere did anyone decide to offer support to people in proportion to risk. What do you suggest? What does that support mean? Making the disease obsolete is within reach and the least harmful form of support i can think of. >The companies that developed the vaccines have required that liability be not their problem since before the beginning of development This is normal for any vaccine. This is normal for any big industry in our society. It's not an outlier or a specific problem with the vaccine. Insurance companies will do all in their power not to pay you. Internet companies are not responsible if your connection is broken. Hardware companies are not responsible if your hardware breaks in most realistic conditions. You're talking about a symptom as if it's a root cause. Yes, people are capitalizing on misery. Yes, this is how our society works today. No, being a disease spreader is not acceptable because of that. That's like not getting cancer treadment because the medical industry is a bunch of vultures. The industry and the disease (and solution to the disease) are two entirely separate entities. You can criticize the industry and take the vaccine because it's the fair thing to do to the people around you. >discussion of vaccines (or alternatives to, like the Ivermectin debate) has been suppressed on many platforms If people discuss these issues with tinfoil hats and imageboard memes, yes, they will be moderated out of existence. Because while you might be arguing in good faith, 50 people are actively anti vaxxers and if it were up to them, we'd all be fuarrrked. I live in Brazil, we are reaching 500.000 deaths in here, look up Amapá and what happened there because the President tried to create "herd immunity". This is what this "discussion" creates whenever it becomes "oh i guess my opinion is as valid as a phd's" and this is why it's derezzed. It's not because people are supressing your voice out of some deeply rooted conspiracy, it's just because it fuarrrking kills people. >The burden of proof is not on people who don't want the vaccine. Unvaccinated people are literally dying in the streets in many countries outside of europe and north america. Countries with the vaccines are reaching zero deaths. Cmon man... are you really making this argument? What is the difference between São Paulo and New York? Why is the US almost out of the pandemic and in Brazil you cannot meet anyone whose a relative hasn't died? Yes the burden of proof is on you because on the other side there is not only correlation but dozens of studies that have been done in the past 2 years all over the planet. >Moderna and iirc others have failed to establish mRNA vaccines up until now and we still have no clue about long term effects. You can say this is yet another rehearsed talking point, but it's valid. The clinical studies haven't even completed yet and won't for a year or more, depending on the vaccine. The point is just that there is no solid basis for hushing and forcing everyone to get vaccinated. The hush is the factual evidence. Look at early italy. Look at Brazil. Look at India. Vaccinated cities have less dead. Non vaccinated cities have a LOT more dead. >Also, both sides of the discussion revolve around "someone else said" arguments. No, it does not. If you cannot tell the difference between linking a youtube video/blog article and making a logical argument this is all pointless and science isn't real. I'm a computer scientist, what you're doing is the equivalent of saying "Transistors don't actually work, i don't work with computers, never have, but the fact that transistors don't work is real and the burden of proof is on you computer scientists, i have a cellphone i would know if transistors worked". Can't you see how absurd it is? How opinions based on facts, tangible facts and research is completely different from "a dude said"? Anyone can say anything. Are their words backed by data? Because your hypothesis is that the vaccines are either innefective or need more research and while yes, it's beyond a shadow of doubt that they need more research since it's a new disease and there hasn't been nearly enough time to do a thorough investigation, it's also undeniable that they are effective. What happened in the UK when they tried herd immunity? What happened when they got the vaccine? Why is every city in the US getting out of the pandemic while i can't name a single person who hasn't been affected by covid in the last 6 months here in Brazil? Like i don't know what you're aiming for, what the goal is. Are you bothered by the fact that you have to get new shots? Is that it? Are you saying that the vaccine needs more research? Nobody disagrees with that, not one doctor. That doesn't mean it's not the best tool available at the moment.

>>46143 First of all, if you have anyone close to you who suffered due to covid, you have my sympathies. I'm not in any way trying to be disrespectful or hurtful. You have to understand, a few people I know apparently got covid, but it was literally nothing to them, to the point where these people are wondering if it may have been something else. No one people I know know seems to have had any complications due to covid, you can't help but be suspicious about it, because we have been frantic for over a year. >What do you suggest? It's too late now, but we could have increased sanitary requirements for places where people who are generally in higher risk groups gather. I don't care about a covid test if it's to visit someone in a nursing home, I don't know who could. Secondly, instead of sentencing everyone to their homes, governments could have just as well let it be the decision of everyone whether they want to socially distance and mandate workplaces/organisations/universities/schools offer a way to work from home. If a university professor wants to keep himself safe by not going actually going to the university, in my view, he must absolutely be provided a way to do so. Obviously this doesn't work everywhere and for everybody, just like the hard lockdown didn't. >This is normal for any vaccine. This is normal for any big industry in our society. It's not an outlier or a specific problem with the vaccine. Insurance companies will do all in their power not to pay you. Internet companies are not responsible if your connection is broken. Hardware companies are not responsible if your hardware breaks in most realistic conditions. You may be right. It's not hard to see if I am ignorant about certain things, but this is absolutely awful. This can't be acceptable with regards to health. >The industry and the disease (and solution to the disease) are two entirely separate entities Are they? The only solution are vaccines by entities in the industry, if I didn't misunderstand anything. Discussion of any other possible solution is suppressed, I mentioned the Ivermectin debate as a concrete example. >look up Amapá I have tried to look, from what I can gather there was a response similar to Sweden. Sweden is doing fine aren't they? It would be much obliged if you could link what you mean. Another thing to be asked, as can be seen in >>46108, is the way we count these numbers. There has been criticism practically since day one. And yeah I get it, there is no way you are going to get countries and counties to count test results or deaths uniformly, that's to be expected. But talking about the cycle threshholds is different, there have been numerous credible people with credentials talking about how they are set too high. Some of them even banded together and created resources like https://cormandrostenreview.com/report/. The WHO itself reversed its opinion on this. You have to realize that PCR tests form the basis of all our statistics, and if experts are split on this, what should you personally believe? The side with more people on it? The side with more people in positions of authority on it? >Unvaccinated people are literally dying in the streets in many countries outside of europe and north america There was a CNN article (lol, ik, not the best source) talking about Seychelles, which at the time was the most vaccinated country on earth, but had cases rising still. There is an ongoing debate about the efficacy of covid vaccines that I am frankly clueless about. >No, it does not. If you cannot tell the difference between linking a youtube video/blog article and making a logical argument this is all pointless and science isn't real. You're making the assumption that I compare random studies with facebook tier posts. What about factual evidence that lockdowns were ineffective? What about factual evidence that cycle threshholds are too high? Because even nobel laureate are suddenly nutjobs if they in some way disagree about some detail of the status quo, like the guy. Sorry man, I know I'm a layman with no way to differentiate two contradicting papers. >Like i don't know what you're aiming for, what the goal is It's simple, let everyone decide when and why to take the vaccine. I'm planning to get it, but definitely not now. >Are you saying that the vaccine needs more research? Nobody disagrees with that, not one doctor. I'm glad we're on the same page.

>Where did we go wrong? I think the errors made surrounding Covid-19 (after the lack of early response) is very similar to a class of errors discussed in AI research, specifically I think this is an alignment problem. Governments (and society at large) have imagined that this is all a matter of a simple optimization: optimize against cases. Of course, easier said than done, how do we optimize against cases? What we seem to have landed on is optimizing against personal mobility (lockdowns) and optimizing towards vaccines. Not awful ideas to start but, these optimizations take on agent-like behavior. Agents are simply any body which is goal oriented and loosely adaptable. All agents will seek to protect themselves and the integrity of their goal in so far as they are capable. This behavior has left us unable to look back and re-evaluate. Lockdowns aren't very effective, in fact they can in some cases have a paradoxical effect as they increase human density by reducing the number of places people can be, but that doesn't matter, the "lockdown agent" (wherever it happens to manifest) insulates itself against these criticisms. We've also paralyzed ourselves from re-evaluating the goal of reducing case counts, effective therapies and ineffective ones are conflated and poo-pooed despite the fact that the effective interventions are associated with rapid declines in death rate and long term complications.

>>46148 >No one people I know know seems to have had any complications due to covid, you can't help but be suspicious about it, because we have been frantic for over a year. I don't know anyone who died from smallpox or HIV either man.. there are open cemiteries in Brazil, India, there were some in France last year, it doesn't take a lot of research. Here in Brazil you cannot get a hospital appointment, because all hospitals are full. You crashed your car? Tough luck, there won't be a bed for you, and if there were, you'd have broken bones and covid aswell. This isn't abstract, it's not a thought exercise. >You may be right. It's not hard to see if I am ignorant about certain things, but this is absolutely awful. This can't be acceptable with regards to health. I agree with you, but this is just the society we have. Homelessness is absolutely unacceptable, but we still treat homeless people as dirt. Monetization of water and basic human needs is unacceptable, yet we have it. We do the best we can with the tools available. You can't go from unjust insanity to reshaping a cannibalistic society by spreading disease. Vaccines are a tool, a necessary tool being monetized, just like everything else. >I have tried to look, from what I can gather there was a response similar to Sweden. Sweden is doing fine aren't they? It would be much obliged if you could link what you mean. I don't know what is going on in Sweden and can't comment on the subject. What i do know is that sweden and brazil have entirely different infrastructures and healthcare quality levels. As for amapá, i can't find anything in English, but there are plenty of reports on local news, such as: https://g1.globo.com/ap/amapa/noticia/2021/05/20/governo-federal-reconhece-estado-da-calamidade-publica-no-amapa-em-funcao-da-covid-19.ghtml Basically what happened is that the government decided to follow UK's herd immunity footsteps. Covid cases rose, all hospitals were full, and when hospitals get full you can't treat anyone for anything. If you broke your leg, there were no hospitals available to treat you. If you had cancer, no hospitals. If you had a stroke, no hospitals. A lot of people died in a very short period of time for entirely preventable reasons. I don't know if Sweden did the same, i would need to research about what they did and what the structure available was. >Are they? The only solution are vaccines by entities in the industry, if I didn't misunderstand anything. Discussion of any other possible solution is suppressed, I mentioned the Ivermectin debate as a concrete example. I don't have enough medical knowledge to debate wether ivermectin is appropriate or not, what i do know is that people who have no medical knowledge don't have enough data to suggest alternative medicines. You can't complain about lack of research on covid and suggest something else entirely alternative. An example of how dangerous this behavior can be is found in Brazil, where the entire executive branch of the government focused on an alternative, unproven medicine https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/chloroquine-study-coronavirus-brazil We had doctors giving this soykaf to COVID patients and killing them shortly after. Executive government officials are not doctors. This is what happens when someone who is not a specialist tries to do specialist work. >There was a CNN article (lol, ik, not the best source) talking about Seychelles, which at the time was the most vaccinated country on earth, but had cases rising still. There is an ongoing debate about the efficacy of covid vaccines that I am frankly clueless about. Brazil had 5000 deaths per day three months ago. The vacination started three months ago. Now we have 2000 deaths per day, and dropping. I'm not sure what evidence you have about the vaccine's efficacy but the united states being almost back to normal should be more than enough evidence. I'm not a scientist, and i can't claim to be, what i know is that since the vaccine started in Brazil, less people died. Dead people can't fix problems, alive people can. >It's simple, let everyone decide when and why to take the vaccine. I'm planning to get it, but definitely not now. The problem with that is that you don't live in an island. If you get infected and feel no symptoms you can still spread the disease. And if you do get symptoms you're taking a hospital bed that could go to someone who actually needs it, not to someone who refused to take basic medicine.This is the entire point of a virus, it spreads. >What about factual evidence that lockdowns were ineffective? What about factual evidence that cycle threshholds are too high? Because even nobel laureate are suddenly nutjobs if they in some way disagree about some detail of the status quo, like the guy. I really have no idea what you're talking about man. We have factual data to the point of exhaustion in Brazil all week, because thousands of people are dying everyday nonstop. I can't claim that this is irrefutable evidence, i'm not a doctor, but i cannot conceive of how you could possibly think that either the vaccine doesn't work (given worldwide evidence) or that covid doesn't kill (once again, given worldwide evidence).

>>46153 Yeah, it's really weird how some peoples' perceptions of things are so hardwired at this point. There's a pretty big body of evidence now that wearing masks outdoors isn't necessary, yet some people insist on it. "Millions of people are dying" despite only one person died of coronavirus in my county (pop around 500,000) last month, even with tourists streaming in. By literally every measurement you can think of, the virus is currently a non-issue where I am. Global warming is literally a bigger threat. Yet people hyperfocus on the virus and let it control their lives.

>>46166 >so why did I do this? Because when enough people have partial immunity it makes the disease spread a lot slower in a situation where you have, say, 50 people crammed in a bar. As for "you still have to wear a mask and social distance and yadda yadda"... yeah I know exactly zero people who ever followed that rule. At this point most people only wear masks at the store out of habit.

>>46167 I started wearing a mask to filter out allergens and pollutants when outside in general and it makes me feel like I don't have to have deal with people talking to me as much. A little personal space. No issue there except on hot days where it gets some condensation inside.

>>46170 This is about the only decent use for one of those masks, also when riding a bike so flies dont come in your mouth.

>>46167 >>46173 Anarchist and libertarian types like to whine about masks, but since it basically become socially acceptable to have face covered in public, if you live in a place that isn't too warm or you are just very resilient or predominatly indoorsy, you can now avoid basic face recognition in video surveillance pretty easily an without much consequences. If there is no specific law that forbids that normally you obviously can also wear sunglasses, hat or hood on a daily basis. Or even balaclava without mouthhole, if you're brave enough. Win for cyberpunks, if I have ever seen one.

>>46178 Just dress up as a bee. Nobody will recognize a bee.

>>46179 I'm literally the guy in the pic.

>>46178 Doesnt matter, modern algos can now identify you even with mask & sunglasses. We had a thread about it quite a while ago.

>>46180 do you still have the costume?

>>46178 In the wake of covid I rationalized mask-wearing with this same thought, but recently learned that alas simply the way you walk can be used as an identifier (as >>46184 pointed out, there was a recent thread about it, quite eye opening)

>>46184 iirc effectiveness was shown to be below 50% in most experiments using real-world data and not controlled lab experiments. But that thread was a while ago and that field moves fast.

>>46196 gait is easily faked. Just imagine your foot is a little fuarrrked up.

>>46198 Yeah, the idea would be to pretend to have a limp when you know you're being watched. But, i personally don't have a map of where every camera is, i wonder if that'd be public domain. probably not.

>>46178 >balaclava without mouthhole, if you're brave enough. Win for cyberpunks, if I have ever seen one. Not really, most people still think it is the year 2000. Surveillance has advanced. A lot of cameras also have directional microphones too. And cameras have IR lenses or even some microwave ones - which is able to see through clothing like masks.

>>46217 Face masks store a significant amount of heat which comes out as blackbody IR radiation, obscuring the IR camera. Don't know about microwave cameras, but everything I can find is pretty primitive.

>>46218 >obscuring the IR camera. Material dependent, and can be filtered to a degree with gamma, contrast, white balance, etc. >>46218 >microwave cameras, but everything I can find is pretty primitive. Intentionally. The same will be true of how extensive CCTV + mic is. You will never see authorities present in public CCTV footage with audio. However, consumer electronics have 'caught up' a bit even simple doorbell cameras have audio. Do you think it rational an Amazon doorbell would have camera + mic but a surveillance system costing multi-million$$$ doesn't?

>>46140 > If you want absolute individual rights, to the point where your actions can and will hurt others around you, you should leave society and live in an island. This harm principle (made famous by John Stuart Mill) you mention, is not as clear as you seem to assume here, even if you transform it into the religious Golden Rule it is not without its criticism. Its just as abstract as your "common decency", which is empirically a cultural phenomenon, not some general rule. And if you wanted to rebuttal with that maybe the west is a homogenic culture, you could not be more wrong. Even though a couple examples may indicate cultural homogenity - like acceptance of laissez faire neoliberalism has had a similar kind of impact on the cultural framework of the people living under that applied philosophy - the theoretical mass are not the only ones applying morals (that is, if you believe normative (=moral) judgments to be more than HURRAYs and BOOHs, as your implicit defence of the consequentialist persective indicates). At least you did give some clear examples of your supposed common decency. Just unfortunate for you that I'm not debating your claim, but I'm rendering it moot. As to your logically valid claim that >if you want absolute individual rights, you should leave society and live in an island You are showing illiteracy in what individual rights would entail in other kinds of organizations of state. Application of political theory judged within historical context leaves a lot of room for speculation on different modes of governing, but since most have not been applied on a national level, there's no real way of saying they are better, amirite. One could say bolshevism is applied marxism, which is communism, which falls under socialism and that has destroyed the USSR from within: so socialism doesn't work. But then, one should stop talking and start reading on the history of bolshevism and how contrary it really is with Marxism. And after that maybe something about the development of socialism (generally divided by syndicalism and communism), of which its history is such a mess that socialism can really be understood as redefined with every following generation. And I'm not even touching the problems the representative democratic ideal combined with the current neoliberal capitalist ideal have created in relation to individual rights. So again: I'm not debating the claim, just rendering it moot. And for your other points that have to do with your beloved so called "science", maybe you should look into hermeneutics a bit, before lecturing someone on what valid science entails, arguments entail, and what the characteristics of a conversation are. > BRING (((FACTS))) > "Somebody else said" is not an argument anyone can discuss How is your jaw?

>>46154 >I don't have enough medical knowledge to debate wether ivermectin is appropriate or not The FLCCC has a lot of info on it: https://covid19criticalcare.com/ Bret Weinstein's recent podcast with Dr. Pierre Kory goes into a lot of detail about the situation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn_b4NRTB6k Database of all ivermectin COVID-19 studies. 93 studies, 55 peer reviewed, 56 with results comparing treatment and control groups: https://c19ivermectin.com

>>46218 You want to rely on them using ir cams? Seems hella hail merry.

>>46223 I have no interest in growing my e-peen, so if you wish to go that route of argumentation feel free to go there by yourself. I'm not LARPing as the king of debates who will wreak havoc in your brain. I'm just a person talking with someone else, if you could please drop the debater act i believe we might be able to have a useful conversation instead of a battle of egos. >which is empirically a cultural phenomenon, not some general rule Never claimed it was a hard coded rule. If we both live in an apartment, is it better if i clean after myself or if i leave my dirt for you to clean? I, and the people i choose to be around, prefer to look after ourselves. This is not to say you cannot leave your responsibilities for others to deal with, nothing physically stops you from doing that. I'm not sure what made you think i was talking about a general rule instead of a specific scenario. >the west is a homogenic culture I'm not sure what you're trying to say at this point. I have no interest in a hypothetical discussion of hypothetical people. Real people and real behavior, "The west" is too abstract to be useful in this discussion, at least in the discussion i was having and the point i was making about a very specific scenario. "The west" should be irrelevant. >You are showing illiteracy in what individual rights would entail in other kinds of organizations of state I'm not making a claim on the structure of society, i'm using hyperbole to exemplify how absurd the behavior is and the logical conclusion that i, personally, see that behavior leading to. As for the rest of your points in this paragraph, they are completely beside the point. If you disagree, feel free to point how they relate to the specific conversation at hand and I'd be happy to reply. >And I'm not even touching the problems the representative democratic ideal combined with the current neoliberal capitalist ideal have created in relation to individual rights. Good, because this is not the point of this conversation or thread. >"Facts" and "Somebody else said". As i previously explained, if i tell you i believe X is better than Y because of Z, you have room to tell me i'm wrong. If i tell you that someone else said that X is better than Y, you have no room. There is no logical progression, you are just stating a fact that someone else said something. Two people cannot have a conversation about that. I'm not saying that you cannot reference studies in a paper. I'm saying that if you're having a conversation with someone, i want to hear what you have to say, not what someone else said, because i can't argue against that, there is no room for you to be mistaken or corrected and i'd be better of talking with that "someone else" who actually had something to say, not you who are only mentioning what was said. Once again, this is not a broad, abstract discussion or an absolute rule that can be applied to all aspects of society. I'm talking to one specific poster, about one specific scenario and one specific subject. The post has context, if you remove context and extrapolate the arguments into another, broader discussion, you're no longer having a conversation, you're just making a monologue. Sage since i don't believe this post or line of conversation contributes to the topic at hand.

>>46226 I will give it a look, thanks for the links

>>46155 >Yeah, it's really weird how some peoples' perceptions of things are so hardwired at this point. Not even "at this point". I feel like society collectively decided that vaccines were The Solution by the first week the media declared we were allowed to be worried about the pandemic. It also doesn't just exist in people, goal preservation has taken over at the institutional level as well. "Flatten the curve" is another misaligned psuedo-agent, it's a reductive optimization which doesn't really align with anything we could describe as human. "Flatten the curve" can only see in terms of a number. >>46226 On the subject of Bret (worlds comfiest doomsayer), the "force" against Ivermectin he's been alluding to recently is I think best understood in these terms of misaligned agent. It's really difficult to point at any one thing as filling the shoes of "that force" and I think that's why his careful self stumbles over it so much. Meanwhile just calling it a vaccine optimizer and being done with it really frees one up to point to particular places where the behavior manifests without worrying it's going to be taken as "The" place the force comes from.

>>46266 >"Flatten the curve" can only see in terms of a number. This is a good point. Honestly I suspect it was mostly popularized because of the way people hyperfocus on quantification of the economy.

>>46226 >>46231 Of course YouTube removed the video. It can be still be seen on the FLCCC website: https://covid19criticalcare.com/videos-and-press/flccc-releases/covid-ivermectin-and-the-crime-of-the-century-podcast-with-dr-pierre-kory/

>>46269 I'm not sure if I'll ever see the documentary (currently kinda tired, so it's either going into the bookmarks or to the tab queue), but I just thought that the beginning song was somewhat amusing. For those wondering, the song was this one: https://youtu.be/IvUU8joBb1Q

a very sane article on the topic of safety measures we have taken in response to the pandemic: https://www.aier.org/article/masking-a-careful-review-of-the-evidence/

>>46297 title from that website: "The World May Be Getting Darker, But We Must Carry on the Light of Liberalism" I thought it was very funny. Anyway, mask mandates and lockdowns are an example where peoples' scientific literacy is affected by their political opinions. If you gave them the same data and told them it was something nonpolitical (like say, flea infestation rates in dogs) they would come to completely different conclusions. This happens even to leading scientists and medical doctors.

>>46166 Well, at least the manufacturer part is true.

I got my first Pfizer shot yesterday. Figured I'd get it out the way since I'll almost certainly need one if I do research abroad. Call me a sheep or whatever. Besides a pretty mild headache which lasted a few hours and wasn't even the worst I've had this month I don't feel any different. If my heart explodes I'll ask my sister to post an update here.

>>46314 Its because of people like you who get it without thinking that is going to force the rest of us to get it later on. Most likely the country you want to travel to isn't accepting any travel right now anyway. On top of that, they will still require you to spend 14 days in quarantine on article just ad they would a nonvaxxed individual once they do open. Ignoring all that, you chose to do it before you needed to be vaxxed, which means you are simply being impatient. What a waste

>>46167 >partial immunity That's not how a vaccine works

>>46315 I deliberated for a few weeks once I was told I was eligible for one. I'm sorry I can't be as principled or idyllic as you, but for me it will be more trouble than it's worth to not get it, and I'd rather get it done now when nothing is going on than in a few months when I'm moving for university (which will ask me to get one anyway). If I'm going to catch covid, it'll probably be then. My postman got the rona last year and lost his sense of taste. I'd rather do without that.

>>46316 ? Do you think a vaccine has to give 100% perfect immunity to work? because no vaccine does that.

Getting my first shot tomorrow literally only because I can't be bothered to get tested every couple of days if I want to do something. Pretty funny btw that the thing that makes people realize that "rights" are and always have been 100% political constructs that exist entirely at the convenience of rulers turns out to be as mild and reasonable a use of authority as vaccinating people because there's a somewhat serious disease going around.

>>46330 >mild and reasonable they derezzed competition and now force you to pay for their own product as they hold the whole market. Imagine thinking lobbyist using the state to steal your money is fine. >>46324 Its called efficiency and its in fact used to determine if its worth or not. Its the prime argument why some seasons flu shot wasnt worth the trouble. Worst rates were around 60%. Even if everyone used it you would still have almost half open to infection which kills the whole idea of stopping spread.

>>46331 Imagine thinking that something being mild by comparison means it's "fine".

>>46324 >Do you think a vaccine has to give 100% perfect immunity to work? They could also give 0% immunity it doesn't matter. The vaccines are just a face saving way for governments to back out of the whole covid situation. They can't admit that lockdowns and masks were a mistake and we just need to get on with our lives now. And they can't keep workers and the economy locked down forever. So here's a magic vaccine that will make it ok to go outside again without admitting any blame.

>>46107 >Because asking questions about the safety of something we do not know the safety of is insane It's not just about the saftey of the immediate vaccine either. The virus will probably just evolve to get around whatever effectivness it has anyway. What if we end up will regular yearly vaccinations? I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theories about microchips in the vaccines or whatever. But if you have a vaccine scheduled for aug 2021, and aug 2022, and aug 2023, and aug 2024.... Then they absolutly can start experimenting with giving different vaccinations to different people on different years, depending on your social credit score or some other long term agenda. We've already seen something like this when a controversial middle eastern country used vaccinations to secretly sterlize Ethiopian immigrants. Regular covid shots would allow governments to target anyone in their population.

>>46354 Lowkey annoys me when people always point at other places though its not entirely your fault. us did the same with native americans in 70s. Some fuarrrks thought they spread too much and sterilized the women under guise of medical checkups. Cant remember exact percentage but i believe was something 20%+ of entire native population.. More important is you never hear about it and i only got to know about it accidentally because i took medical ethics which had it on record as part of the literature along the syphilis trials and all the other crap more publicly known. And brits used londoners as lab rats likewise post ww2 for chem tests that apparently spiked cancer among the subjects that likewise didn't know what was going on. I think most likely the entire west is fuarrrked as much as the stories you hear about africa but news dont report as much about our own dirt. Going on a crossover with the other thread wikipedia used to list a lot of our fuarrrked up history but it got corrected to the right opinion over time.

>>46355 >Lowkey annoys me when people always point at other places Lowkey annoys me when people assume their western country is the center of the universe.

>>46331 >Even if everyone used it you would still have almost half open to infection which kills the whole idea of stopping spread. It doesn't "stop the spread" it slows the spread. Only with a huge amount of population immunity would the spread slow so much it stops.

>>46356 Reading comprehension. Western history is more relevant to western policies which is what the entire thread is about.

>>46358 >Reading comprehension. Western history is more relevant to western policies which is what the entire thread is about. What thread are you reading? I said that governments have a history of secretly injecting people with bad things. Therefor giving them more opportunities to do that on a regular basis is not a good idea. And you >>46355 are upset because I referenced something a middle eastern country did instead of a western country? Who the fuarrrk cares. Insert whatever real world example you want.

>>46359 >And you >>46355 are upset because I referenced something a middle eastern country did instead of a western country? An evangelical leftist wanted to remind you that White People are always more evil. Now kiss a pride flag and recite 10 pronouns in penance.

>>46360 >>46359 consider that usual responses to "bad soykaf happened in a country far away" is "not my issue" which makes local examples important. Why the fuarrrk do i even have to explain something that simple?

>>46365 >"bad soykaf happened in a country far away" is "not my issue" Why the fuarrrk do i even have to explain something that simple? Except patriots are not going to want to hear about the evil things their own country did. Shitting on your own country and culture is only cool and popular with a specific group of people. Why the fuarrrk do i even have to explain something that simple? I actually chose Israel vs blacks for a reason. Lefties will focus on the "muh poor oppressed people of blackness" side and the right will focus on the "those damn jews again...". It's an example that's likely to resonate with more than one side. Of course it won't work so well now that you've forced me to explain it to you. And everyone has probably forgotten what the original point was anyway. Which was probably your goal all along so well done you win.

>>46369 A true patriot cares for his people not the gov. Also you don't know your audience. This site is almost entirely lefties and centrists that merely look right compared to the hrt preacher. I would say there haven't been more than 1-2 conservative posters in a year of reading posts here. Ontopic: seems they renamed astrazeneca - prolly gonna be enough to avoid avg person fearing it due the bad press earlier. Then again i dont know how much it matters as both bion & astra are now listed for complications with cardiovascular system. Not that surprising imo - you inject a trojan horse that unloads its payload into cells and destroys them doing so instead of remaining in blood like regular vaccs and since its traveling through blood it will travel certainly to the heart with sufficient amount of patients.

>>46372 Pretty much this. Cyberpunk and FOSS are born from reactions against capitalism so it's not a coincidence. >>46369 >Lefties will focus on the "muh poor oppressed people of blackness" side and the right will focus on the "those damn jews again...". It's an example that's likely to resonate with more than one side. Learn politics from real life instead of just memes and media. Even the SJWs tend to be pro-Palestine and anti-Israel (you know, those poor oppressed people of brownness being invaded by a US-backed state?)

Everyone will take the vaccine even the ones that are bitching about it on forums, because you wont be able to enter public spaces & use public transportation without vaccination proof.Most employers will require proof of vaccination unless you are a neet or homless person you will be forced to take the vaccine. You might be able to avoid getting them if you know people working in the medical industry who are willing to risk their licence by creating a fake certificate or create fake ID by yourself. You will get the jab,You will wear a mask,you will social distance & you will obey

>>46380 >because you wont be able to enter public spaces & use public transportation without vaccination proof. lol sure. I live in commiefornia and the rules now are "if you say you're vaccinated you can take off your mask"

>>46380 Good thing my state has already told mandatory vaccinations, masks, and other COVID-19-related stuff to fuarrrk off.

>>46374 >Learn politics from real life instead of just memes and media. Even the SJWs tend to be pro-Palestine and anti-Israel What's your point?

>>46380 >Everyone will take the vaccine even the ones that are bitching about it on forums, because the government will make life unpleasant until you do Do you feel better about being a coward capitulating to tyranny if you can convince yourself that everyone else is doing it too? >>46382 <I used this example because both X and Y will like it >AHA but Y will also like it for a different reason! >Learn politics from real life instead of just memes and media. Ok. Thanks I guess?

>>46380 The restrictions on unvaccinated people are progressing only very slowly. They have to, because that is the surest way these incredible proposals get sneaked by. But once it crosses a certain line, once a critical mass of people are actually actively prevented from living their lives, there will be riots. Even amongst the vaccinated are more than enough reasonable people who see vaccination unshakeably as a personal choice. It will be glorious.

>>46385 Personally looking forward to watch how things play out when people realize this will be a yearly thing like flu and not a one time deal.

Now that most Western countries are slowly phasing out Covid measures, should we switch the narrative from TOTALITARIANISM IMMINENT to THIS WAS JUST A TEST RUN, BUT TOTALITARIANISM TOTALLY IMMINENT NEXT TIME?

>>46387 Are you blind or too distracted by covid? Internet filters just passed. The way covid topics got moderated also got you a whiff of it - they straight up deleted juicy takes from fb&yt.

>>46388 Do you really think they wouldn't have used any convenient excuse to pass those filters though? Covid or something else, it was a foregone conclusion.

>>46389 The initial statement was nothing happened." It happens always on every opportunity" is correct but also contradicts the initial one.

>>46390 The reason for that is that we're two different lainons, I'm not the one you originally replied to.

My boss is effectively trying to force me to take the vaccine, telling me he is waiting for everyone to be vaccinated before lifting the mask requirement. That wouldn't bother me, but I'm constantly being nudged. Why do some get to play with the personal decisions of others? This is beyond perverse. Why can everyone not just mind their own business? Why do I not get to choose my risk? Aren't the vaccinated protected anyway? I've been trying my best to navigate this difficult landscape, but if this further escalates I risk basically my position and well fostered relationship to all the other people who are part of this small company. This soykafty country is also introducing mandatory vaccination upon employment for every sector in little steps. All of this is just beyond me, why did it have to be this way?

>>46806 and also ITT: Welcome to the thing called society, where people don't exist in a vacuum, your decisions and behavior affect other people, and rights are an illusion created and partially upheld by those who don't like that.

>>46806 >muh plague carrier rights

>>46807 >Welcome to the thing called society, where people don't exist in a vacuum, your decisions and behavior affect other people, and rights are an illusion created and partially upheld by those who don't like that. This is why this particular board is the most mis-named one on the site. It's basically an endless series of rants by misanthropes whining about how other people in society are big ol' meanies by not tolerating the poster's particular bonkers flavour of "I hate everyone, and I won't lift a finger to make the lives of others better, and I'm too narcissistic to see how a culture of mutual aid makes everyone's lives better in the long run" idiocy.

>>46390 "It always happens on every opportunity" was exactly my point.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment >exists >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide_scandal >exists >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_%26_Johnson >company knows their baby powder has too much asbestos in it, covers it up >exists >emergency approven mRNA are the first mRNA vaccines to be approven, although no clinical study has concluded with a safe verdict lol, tell me friends, why should I trust any of these pharmaceutical companies or the government?

>>46806 I can understand people having concerns about having employees who are fine spreading diseases because they fell for loony internet conspiracy theories. Even when the actual risk of infection is pretty minimal, it ultimately reflects on people.

>>46813 >force people with cold into work >get whole staff infected and sick this is fine >rona >if you dont vacc we will all die! >vacc causes heart disease >immunization rate is garbage zero consistency all cocksucker, you really can tell how much people are npcs by current behaviour

>>46812 Only the Moderna and the Pfizer vaccines are mRNA vaccines so what you said doesn't connect to eachother.

>>46810 >>46807 >>46808 Okay you got me, obviously I'm for killing as many people as is possible by spreading the disease and I hate humanity. Okay you got me, I'm a selfish egotistical retard. Okay you got me, I'm a narcisstical misanthrope to disillusioned to commit to positively impacting the world. What do you even want me to say? In the first place, the status quo is that the vaccines are effective enough for everybody who consents to get sufficient protection. If someone wants the vaccine I will gladly continue to provide my taxes to continue paying for it. Is it the mutations that are evolving in the unvaccinated population due to selective pressure? Maybe an agressive vaccination campaign that was sure not to achieve their promised rates were a mistake. >I hate everyone, and I won't lift a finger to make the lives of others better, and I'm too narcissistic to see how a culture of mutual aid makes everyone's lives better in the long run This is just plain wrong. There is a wealth of people around me who I foster healthy relationships with. People who help me and are happy to receive mine. If you believe someone who actually wouldn't lift a finger to make the lives of others better has even a shot at living a good life you are mistaken. This applies even to work, the company I worked at helped me get on my feet and I helped it stay afloat during a difficult time. It's almost inevitable to be in a culture of mutual aid, since refusing to help others quickly leads to getting no help oneself. How is forcing a person to take something we don't know the long term consequences of and won't have a clinical trial completed on until the end of 2022 ethical? Especially for someone who is not in a high risk group and can afford to wait to see how the situation develops? It's almost like the Nuremberg trials never happened. Is my way of thinking this wrong? Please enlighten me lains who are apparently less morally bankrupt than I am. I am genuinely curious about your responses.

The Safety of COVID-19 Vaccinations—We Should Rethink the Policy Currently, our estimates show that we have to accept four fatal and 16 serious side effects per 100,000 vaccinations in order to save the lives of 2–11 individuals per 100,000 vaccinations, placing risks and benefits on the same order of magnitude. https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/9/7/693/htm Young people are more at risk from vaccines than covid. Its not only pointless to get the experimental RNA gene therapy, its dangerous.

>>46808 It's called the Nuremberg code. Read it. There's Bots on Lain parroting the mainstream agenda. The prevailing philosophy here is that of anarchism, freedom. Not siding with a global medical tyranny that coerces you to get an experimental jab that has not been subject to regular clinical trials and is known to cause fatalities. Anyone even scared of Corona at this point and believes thats the real reason for everything is a brainwashed fool and will never wake up.

>>46107 >Tried to wait out on the vaccine >People dying from badly handled vaccines >Turns out the new meme variant makes the good ones useless Wow, being a schizo dodged me a bullet

>caring about covid it's not January any more nobody gives a soykaf and they haven't for months. The only reason to give a soykaf about covid is because it signals your devotion to your political ideology.

>>46822 >The prevailing philosophy here is that of anarchism, freedom. Was there a formal survey? Some sort of scientific poll? I can only speak for myself, but if there ever is such a survey, I'll mark myself down as straight-up old-school leftist in the grand old Eugene Debs tradition. Great accomplishments come through collective action.

>>46812 What if I were to coerce and propagandize you really hard? >>46835 >Was there a formal survey? Some sort of scientific poll? Sorry I don't have a peer-reviewed paper to back this up, but I heard from a friend that we're using a website themed around Serial Experiments Lain and Cyberpunk.

>>46380 Feels good to live in a state where vaccine passports are illegal and I'm never going to let the bourgeoisie inject me with their fuarrrking poison. Everyone in my city goes to stores, work, etc without a mask now. Less than half of us are vaccinated. New daily cases have been <10 for months now. The lockdowns, masks, etc have been proven completely unnecessary to public health.

>>46843 It's really mindboggling that lockdowns were accepted in the first place. How did lockdowns perform in Wuhan? Oh, not well. But somehow we in the West decided our lockdowns were going to be more effective than the ones put into place by actual autocratic tyrants.

>>46843 We have many studies now that back this up. Of course this didn't stop (particularly some yuropoor) countries of imposing yet another one. But then again, the lockdowns are actually beneficial to many players in the tech industry, I wonder how much that played a role.

>>46843 >Feels good to live in a state where vaccine passports are illegal and I'm never going to let the bourgeoisie inject me with their fuarrrking poison. Everyone in my city goes to stores, work, etc without a mask now. Less than half of us are vaccinated. New daily cases have been <10 for months now. The lockdowns, masks, etc have been proven completely unnecessary to public health. "I don't trust anything that anyone in authority tells me about COVID because they're lying liars who want to take advantage of me! Also, I trust reported case numbers reported by the same people completely!"

>>46842 >Sorry I don't have a peer-reviewed paper to back this up, but I heard from a friend that we're using a website themed around Serial Experiments Lain and Cyberpunk. Quite true. And last time I checked, that didn't automatically mean everyone with an interest in those subjects was automatically supportive of one flavour or another of anarchism.

>>46851 Its more like if the pro-panic side claims authority is more relevant than your opinion then what authority says about its futility should be a relevant argument to you. If you accept that they lie because you don't like the results saying no then the panic arguments become invalid because they can be lies too. Its a win win the moment a supposed pro source also says no.

>>46866 Maybe I shouldn't attempt to understand this before I've had my morning coffee, but I can't decipher a word of this gibberish.

>>46868 A source contradicting itself is invalid either way. If you demand to rely on a source its rational to point out where it contradicts itself. Disappointing seeing you get iq filtered by something that simple while talking smack.

>>46807 >affect other people pic related

>>46882 It would be nice if they taught people statistics in school.

>>46882 Answering your picrel: Vaccines can't prevent you from getting and spreading the virus but they lower your chances of serious complications and death from the virus. They also make you recover faster from the illness. Known vs unknown enemy. Also this >>46885

>>46885 >>46893 social autism , the meme argues against people who believe it will totally protect you. And the second poster goes about personal benefits which arent even a concern in the do it for others discussion. If you wanted to make it relevant you could at least argue over hospital beds or whatever.

Here is the article https://breaking911.com/new-study-finds-that-we-have-to-accept-4-fatal-16-serious-side-effects-per-100k-vaccinations-to-save-the-lives-of-2-11-individuals-per-100k-vaccinations-placing-risks-benefits-o/ Here is the Medical Study it is referring to https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/9/7/693/htm I dont get how these things can be considered safe for the public. What are they trying to get away with here? Are they really just trying to test mRNA on a large public to see what happens? How could they ethically consider this as mandatory?

>>46923 >What are they trying to get away with here? Book deals and retirement options Notice that receipt of the vaccine is still consensual only and cannot be forced in most countries. Most countries also paid for the vaccine on the front end before it was even made.

>>46923 >>46924 they couldn't pass mrna vaccs for a decade due safety considerations but production of mrna vaccs is significantly cheaper to the regular process. Its a trillion dollar market and thats enough money to get away with anything. With this they establish precedent and then can start pumping out other vaccs as mrna. As for why so elaborate? They already tried only marketing panic and it failed - swine flu was a flop.

>>46923 >breaking911 fake news clickbait site as your citation 0/10 please try harder. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/breaking911/

>fact checker website comedy, how do you know your website isnt fake?

>>46926 It lists the source study too. Did you not bother checking or are you intentionally trying to mislead others?

>>46928 you know you could link the source. The idea that linked sources are correctly represented by journos is sadly false. Too often they reference sources that contradict themself. Probably don't even read their own links and just link something to look convincing.

>>46926 Does this site rate any sources as credible in conspiracy-pseudoscience category? Sounds interesting

>>46926 >https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/reuters/ >Bias Rating: LEAST BIASED >Factual Reporting: VERY HIGH >MBFC Credibility Rating: HIGH CREDIBILITY Your "fact-checking" website is full of soykaf. Its rating Reuters as a highly reputable, credible source when they're the ones guilty of committing slander and defamation against the retired vice president and chief scientist of one of Pfizers drug research divisions Michael Yeadon. Its also rating the BBC as a highly credible source which is also complete hogwash. Why not think for yourself instead of letting others do the thinking for you? You should judge news articles on a case-by-case basis personally.

>>46929 The source is listed in the post listing the news article. https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/9/7/693/htm Theres the post again because it seems like you cant read

>>46933 I don't know about lain, but I know I can't read

>>46140 >If you want absolute individual rights, to the point where your actions can and will hurt others around you, you should leave society and live in an island. "If you don't get the jab, my jab magically stops working!"

>>46117 >climate change lol, opinion discarded.

>>46815 >force people with cold into work >get whole staff infected and sick >this is fine No, it isn't. >if you dont vacc we will all die! No, we won't. >vacc causes heart disease No, it doesn't. >immunization rate is garbage No, it isn't. Wanna try that again?

>>46822 >The prevailing philosophy here is that of anarchism lmao, that would explain a lot

>>46114 >noone asks you if you want your tax money to go into colossal corporate pharmacies Taxation is extortion, congrats.

>>46140 Hey, dumbfuck, cocksucking retard, guess what vaccines are allegedly supposed to do? Make you immune. Do you think that 2 + 2 = 22 as well?

>>46324 Sec, lemme catch polio real quick.

>>46851 People in general lack the discipline to be consistent in how they assemble their narratives. Especially noticeable with conspiratards, who are extremely transparent about picking and choosing what's real based on personal convenience, but really, it's a universal phenomenon.

>>46943 no u is 50iq retard. Just a quick google would confirm the heart issues.

>>46940 >"If you don't get the jab, my jab magically stops working!" More like "If you don't get the jab, then people around you who are immunocompromised and don't benefit much from getting the jab might die." It's about altruism for others

>>46961 If by VACC CAUSES HEART DISEASE you mean that 0.000003% of people (literally) had a mild temporary reaction, then sure, that's true.

>>46982 >astra gets in news cause people die from blood cloths >its just mild soykaf anon based retard

>>46983 >thinks blood clots are a heart disease >anon back to 4chan immediately

>>46815 >>46983 People who think that a disease with a ~10% chance of long-term organ damage is no biggie don't get to whine about 1 in 10 000 000 chances of inflammations or blood clots.

This thread is making me believe that those who support the vax are the conspiracy theorists. No source I can find find, other than normal person sources and big corporations, claim that its not healthy for you. It being mRNA is something that should raise enough eyebrows. Why would anyone support an untested drug?

>>46107 1623172107183-2.jpg made me laugh >>46994 the vaccine's being novel is an important concern for me. im always afraid of newer things and i dont feel comfortable with taking a vaccine that came out this quickly. iirc, most drugs have clinical trials for 5-10 years before they can be marketed and sold.

>>46995 Exactly. Growing up, I was a Guinea pig for adderall. I dont know what, but I know that stuff messed me up in some way. I dont trust drugs that havnt been tested and Im not interested in being a test subject again.

>>46993 only 400 / 100.000 get sick in first place and among the sick less than 1% get really sick under 40. Learn stats first before commenting.

>>47000 Again with the focus on the individual situation. You need to see the bigger picture. The problem with COVID is that the high infection rate swamps medical systems. Medical personnel get overworked and burned out, and are themselves at extremely high risk of being infected. Sterile supplies are used at a rapid rate. This has a knock-on effect where non-COVID medical conditions get left untreated because there simply aren't enough medical personnel or supplies to deal with those other medical problems in a timely manner. What you'll see in a few years is that countries that genuinely went hard-lockdown and preserved their medical systems will also have lower rates of illness and death for non-COVID medical conditions, because they were able to continue with proper preventative care for those other conditions.

>>46994 Being a conspiracy theorist involves effort, you go out your way and ignore large amounts of data and opinions and views, seeking for a few instances that support your claim, or at least in some way go against the mainstream. The lazy majority can't be conspiracy theorists by definition

>>47004 >overworked and burnt out Have you seen the tiktok videos? If they have the time to write, practice, record, and edit a video while being understaffed and overworked, then they aren’t overworked. And if the fear mongering if wasn’t as strong, most people wouldn’t bother going to the hospital. It sure does hit some people harder than others, but it doesn’t mean that it’ll hit everyone the same. People die all the time. The flu kills people too, you know? But telling everyone that they have to live in fear, telling them that the only way back to a normal life is to take an experimental “vaccine”, and then pushing businesses and travel agencies to only service vaccinated individuals, that’s messed up.

>>47007 If you get your perspective on the current global state of medical personnel from tiktok videos you probably need some fresh air. What >>47004 says about the overall effect of COVIDs high infection rate is correct.

>>46995 >>46996 I was a test subject for a few well known vaccines in the military. Unfortunately, when I reported side effects I was asked if I still had them and was told to go back to work since they went away after a while. Those vaccines are now part of a major complaint against the military because the effects were not known at the time. No way am I going to volunteer to get the covid vaccine. >>47007 >But telling everyone that they have to live in fear, telling them that the only way back to a normal life is to take an experimental “vaccine”, and then pushing businesses and travel agencies to only service vaccinated individuals, that’s messed up. I know enough about pandemics to be worried, but the money grab that is COVID-19 really bothers me. Everywhere I go, all I hear is "you want the world to go back to normal don't you? that will only happen if you get this shot that taxpayers paid a company for" When I explain my reason for waiting to get vaccinated until the company is legally liable for my well being people say I am the reason this pandemic keeps lasting so long and all these "measures" are my fault. The real altruistic thing to do is have everyone wear n95 respirators out of the kindness of their hearts and not go out to parties if those are the supposed largest vectors. The way that measures are enacted, its like telling people to practice safe sex to prevent a major STD outbreak when people cant even figure out how to put on a condom properly. Eye protection doesn't work when you wear it on your forehead or around your neck either. I don't even care anymore. PPE only works when you use it correctly, but 99% of people don't have basic sanitation protocols and don't wear their masks properly. There is no reason in all these rules when people were never going to follow them to begin with. I'm just glad the lethality wasn't higher, because half of mankind would have died out before these idiots realized they were being selfish idiots the whole time.

>>47008 I think he was pointing out that people are complaining about being too overworked yet spend hours of their off time choreographing and recording dances in hospitals instead of resting at home. >>47004 >Medical personnel get overworked and burned out, and are themselves at extremely high risk of being infected. Sterile supplies are used at a rapid rate. IIRC most of those problems were at first supply chain deficiencies with masks etc being on backorder and the requisites for performing medical procedures being limited to people with extremely specific certifications in infectious diseases or respiratory systems. Thousands of people became millionaires because of COVID, supplies were sourced from the bottom of every mom-and-pop store that could place orders on ebay and alibaba. It was only a matter of time for the supply system to adapt. As for the hard-hit countries, there were many issues with health problems being worsened by the addition of COVID to the already overtaxed healthcare system which caused every patient to become a respiratory health risk (hence enhanced mask measures). N95 are also supposed to be fit tested which takes about 10-15 minutes per-person, and must be performed for each different model of respirator given. If this is not done, then there is no assurance that the respirator will properly protect the medical staff. You don't get COVID from getting it on your skin. From my experience most health care "professionals" wont change gloves and insist on drinking, eating, and vaping/smoking without proper decontamination or while still wearing all the equipment they just treated an infected patient with anyway. Lockdowns themselves do not work. What does work is when people decide that there is value to reducing risk as a society.

>>46994 >It being mRNA is something that should raise enough eyebrows. Why? >Why would anyone support an untested drug? Nobody does, none of the vaccines are untested. >>47000 At least pretend to look up actual numbers before commenting.

>>47017 Im now certain that you are trying to bait everyone. No mRNA test has ever succeeded. Most of the animal testing they did led to enough dead or damaged test subjects that its never been put into practice. mRNA editing is risky and has never seen a widespread use. It only got allowed due to government shenanigans. I havnt even heard it had any testing whatsoever before being released publically. Also, its technically not a vaccine. It doesnt work the same way as a vaccine does. The dictionary definition of vaccine was actually changed around the time this went public, and you can check that through the wayback machine on most sites. Practice what you preach and look things up. The "vaccine" being mRNA is a big deal that we are sweeping under the rug because enough Bureaucrats and big conglomerates are pushing it through to make money off of fear. Its sickening that they've convinced enough normal people out there to sell it and their schemes on others.

>>47017 Those are actual numbers from our gov institution. Heres something more fun: 400/100.000 sick unvaccinated 200/100.0000 sick vaccinated the only reason i know them is cause i read their report on efficiency of vaccinating before walking in to get a vacc like the npc that you are now go fuarrrk yourself with a chainsaw

>>47017 I think it's a lost cause here. Some people in this thread are too far gone into the conspiracy koolaid. Arguments based on basic logic, verifiable statistics, and science fall on deaf ears. I'm getting my second Pfizer shot this friday, and I'm going to keep wearing masks and avoiding nonessential traveling and crowds, and I'll do so until my country's health authorities deem it safe to open up. I'm going to advocate that friends and family do the same. I'm just glad I don't live in the US. The huge proportion of refuse-to-vaccinate people there is going to turn the entire US into a massive gain-of-function research petri dish.

>>47024 I'm not arguing the vaccine efficacy/safety itself here (I'm still unsure), but in my experience "conspiracy theorists" are much more likely to bring research papers and statistics to the discussion than people who hold the preapproved opinion. Are they often working backward from their conclusion? Sure. But that's still better than going "just trust the science bro" and not giving what the authorities say a second thought.

israel is highly vaccinated and has issues despite that with an increase in sick again you guys live in denial of facts cause its comfortable, just follow orders and dont question things, perfect mentality to be a solider or a factory liner worker but not fit to participate in any thinking process

>>47023 I don't trust government numbers unfortunately. I know that several medical institutions were over/under reporting for financial purposes. Some were calling every positive/negative test as a new patient (despite some being repeat tests). I had to be tested about 6 times over the course of a few months, and each one I was considered a "new patient" so I personally was counted a 6 patients. While china is not the best example, they changed their counting scheme to underreport by changing "infected" from positive test results to only those showing symptoms. >>47024 >>47025 As an American I have had a lot of discussion of the vaccine with my nonamerican friends. The vaccine they got is not offered where I am, and I am suspicious of any kind of message that everything will be fine as long as you consume a product. It sounds like classic pressure advertising, and I don't trust politicians who make it sound like the vaccine is the magical fix for everything. I also know that scientifically even if I am infected, if I wear a mask properly I can't infect another person. I'm a neet so I don't have to worry about close personal exposure.

>wait months before taking measures >never test or refuse incoming flights >1% of population wears mask properly Just consoom needle and don't do anything else

>>47028 The US territory of Puerto Rico went full dictator mode at the beginning of COVID and it actually worked. The problem was that they started to allow travel, and people lied about not having COVID for cheap vacations. The first cases were all tourists. And then the governor paid a friend to have his construction company sub contract covid testing and skim several million dollars off the top.

>>47025 >Are they often working backward from their conclusion? Sure. But that's still better than going "just trust the science bro" and not giving what the authorities say a second thought. When "the authorities" are reputable medical doctors with decades of experience in communicable disease management, as they are in my country, you're damn right I'm going to trust them over the cherrypicked, out-of-context, and possibly fraudulent statistics spouted by twits who are weirdly butthurt about the concept of trying to consider the well-being of other people in their community. The chief medical officer of my province (https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/health/about-bc-s-health-care-system/office-of-the-provincial-health-officer/biographies) has spent her career in the field of communicable diseases. And I mean "in the field" literally. She was in charge of Toronto's response to SARS. She fought ebola in Uganda and polio in Pakistan. I trust her judgement when it comes to COVID. >>47027 I think these points are a perfect indictment of the patchwork insanity that is the American for-profit healthcare system (if that soykafshow can even be dignified with the word "system"). Were your 6 tests at the exact same clinic by the same medical staff and sent to the same testing lab? Alternatively, was your GP informed of each and every test? If not, it's entirely possible that the various labs knew nothing about your other tests and considered you a new patient in their own internal files. In jurisdictions with universal health care (such as where I live), this doesn't happen. Every test and vaccination I've had is linked to my personal centrally-stored medical file.

>>47038 >Were your 6 tests at the exact same clinic by the same medical staff and sent to the same testing lab? Alternatively, was your GP informed of each and every test? They were all the same, but as I understand it, metrics were sent by the lab as a "patient" and not linked to me in a centrally held file as you explain it. As a result, I counted as 6 people for covid reporting statistics. I also know people who had 4 tests all positive because their GP did not realize that you can still test positive weeks or months after getting it and getting over it and they were going to try to get a negative test to return to work. Essentially 1 person = 4 "confirmed cases" I have read a lot of white papers, and none of them advocate rushing a half baked vaccine and trying to get everyone to use it, and almost all of them focus on isolation, quarantine, and preventative measures. I see the vaccine as a pure money grab. An interesting note is that vaccines without significant side effects and exceptional protection CAN be fast tracked to full medical approval. The fact that the vaccine is still pending emergency approval after months of people assuring everyone that it is safe is quite telling. If it was as safe as they say, why wasn't it fast tracked to full approval?

>>46806 >Aren't the vaccinated protected anyway? fuarrrking this. If the vaccine is so effective and everyone who wants it is free to get it, then why do those who don't want it still need to wear a mask to protect them? I'm typically not a conspiracy theorist but it just doesn't add up. I'm in a similar situation at my place of work. Already had COVID in spring and I barely had any symptoms so there's 0 reason for me to be jumping on this new vaccine. Any time I try to explain my situation to coworkers they look at me like I'm a mad man. Whatever though, mask is annoying but I can put up with it. I'm expecting/hoping that my suspicions are disproven eventually and for the vaccine to turn out safe but only time will tell.

>>47042 uk reports now 1/3 of the covid deads are fully vaccinated. Of course same type as before - near dead bed but this also was the type it was supposed to save.

>>47042 You have my sympathies, best to just ride it out quietly and wait for the vaccination hype to die down. Skepticism is steadily growing and media distrust has gotten higher, so this common narrative is finally looking like it is about to crumble. >I'm typically not a conspiracy theorist but it just doesn't add up. This has been what I personally felt too. In the end time will tell, if we both turn out to be retards, so be it.

>>47048 They are definitely hiding something, consider the recent Fauci emails which have been leaked to the press How come none of you guys are talking about those emails?

>>47059 care to drop a link? I don't really follow the news nor talk about it.

https://www.newsweek.com/fauci-emails-5-biggest-revelations-1596714 https://townhall.com/tipsheet/spencerbrown/2021/06/02/fauci-emails-list-n2590371 https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/02/politics/anthony-fauci-emails/index.html Been proven to have lied on facts Within the first 30 pages he says pneumonia vaccination would not be feasible in an outbreak setting on the fifth of march, avoiding issues about the virus being easily mutating (making vaccines useless), the virus is small enough to go through mask fibers, etc and this is just within the first 30 pages, there are over 3000 pages of this document

>>47061 >5. Fauci was uncomfortable with people's fascination with him lol, not surprising. >and this is just within the first 30 pages, there are over 3000 pages of this document I suspect, like Hillary's e-mails, it will mostly be completely uninteresting.

>>47063 You left out the fact that he was caught straight up lying about the masks being effective (EVEN THO they forced people to wear masks) within the first 30 pages You instead merely chose to focus on the fact that he was "uncomfortable with people's fascination"....

>>47065 You already pointed out the mask thing, why would I have to? Is this the part where you accuse me of being a Mossad agent?

>>47066 True I pointed out the mask thing but judging by the fact you automatically think I'm "anti semetic" for pointing out that they have lied and that there is probably way more lies in the documents released....shows that you are already on the side of the ones pushing this vaccine and lockdown no matter how or what has been proven to be lies and coercion

It's only n=2, but here are real people talking about their experiences: >COVID-19 vaccine reactions: Families describe adverse responses to shot >https://invidious.moomoo.me/watch?v=zp_zNSEW1wc&t=356&autoplay=0 I think it's good that people are coming forward after having been treated in such an unjust way and we might witness a slow reversal of the vaccination hype over time. >inb4 someone is going to call bs because it's fox news

>Delta can cause hearing damage okay it's finally time for my shot I guess

>>47093 >he believes it

>>47098 i believe whatever is most harmful

>>47104 that would be the that delta bypasses your vacc and youre fuarrrked either way.

>>47107 The delta strain isn’t real. It’s just fear tactics. This has all gone on long enough.

>>47114 t. rightoid that wants us to die before UBI

>>47114 Oh look an evolution denier. The delta strain just has a higher spreading rate and can more easily reinfect people. There isn't evidence that stongly shows it does anything other than that.

>>47121 I’m not denying evolution, but I am denying how big of a departure it is from before. Every disease evolves to some degree. But it certainly does seem to be evolving at such opportune times as many places are starting to relax their restrictions on the little guys. As for those in the thread attempting to split discussion on political lines, stop it. You are clearly trying to cause division here. It’s not political, its big business and big government trying to hold us, the little guys, down. By playing it up as politics, you do what they want us to do and cause us all to fight one another instead of our corporate overloads. However you probably already know this and are being paid to do so.

>>47107 is there evidence that this new strain actually isn't affected by vaccines? Every source I've found says that all but a few strains have at least partial immunity granted from all the major vaccines. Anyway where I'm at literally nobody cares about covid any more. As for all the weird side effects, they're pretty rare, for most people it's like a flu. I'm not worried.

>>47129 I think nobody really knows or they dont mention it accurate cause its not looking good, look at the efficiency for the target variant - its 60%. The mutated form will have lower efficiency. So how low do you want to count it as still working? If they find 20% is there a point to it? Technically still working and significant on a population scale but on individual basis hardly comforting. And you can look at other viruses like flu. Every virus mutates and whatever old shots you had turn useless. Its just a question how long. Even if delta doesn't bypass some version will certainly crawl up that will.

The vaccination campaigns in my country are getting more and more insane by the minute. If anyone told me the government would organize raves for teens to vaccinate them I would burst out laughing. The obsession with vaccination is making me sick to my stomach. Up until now a test you can get for free granted you access to society, but some political parties are advocating for tests to cost money, such that any unvaccinated person has to pay to congregate. It's all fuarrrked, this will never stop, why have we done this to ourselves.

>>47392 "Oh no, how terrible! A government is trying to provide proven-effective preventative health care for its citizens that will allow everyone to get back to a normal life and ease the burden on the healthcare system! They're going so far as to set up easily-accessible ad-hoc clinics to accomplish this! This nefarious plot to save lives must be stopped at once!"

>>47133 >look at the efficiency for the target variant - its 60%. iirc the 6-month efficacy was estimated at closer to 90% for the mRNA vaccines. >The mutated form will have lower efficiency. there's not a great reason to assume this a priori. I recall a paper doing antibody-binding tests for different vaccines (i.e. patients who got antibodies from vaccines) and different coronavirus variants, the results showed that most major strains which existed at the time were effectively blocked by the available vaccines. I think it was posted in one of the previous coronavirus threads on lainchan. >>47395 they're complaining about vaccien requirements to go out and do stuff, which IMO are just fuarrrky. Where I'm at there is no mask mandate at all any more, no major outbreaks so far.

>>47398 60% is the official final resultfor bion not an estimate. Turns out they arent as amazing as marketed. And 30% is the current official take for delta. jon is apparently better but i didnt check cause i cant get it here anyway.

>>47403 >60% is the official final resultfor bion not an estimate >And 30% is the current official take for delta can you source this? In the public data from the stage III tests, the efficacy was 89% with a narrow error bar. I can't find any data contradicting this. (I was originally asking for a source in >>47129 btw)

>>47404 CDC has it in their rona guidelines somewhere, got it linked months ago. The 30% is just something i heard though - dont know if the source is legit regarding that but not really important to me since we have no delta. On the other hand you should note they are cheating because they include people who got sick and acquired natural immunity and then got a shot which obviously boosts the resulting score of immune people. However should give them credit for being honest enough to mention it in the report. This is also prolly why they advertise in their recommendation with "significant risk reduction" instead of its highly effective - its simply not.

>>47405 CDC claims 2 doses of Pfizer are 94% in the most recent study I could find (concluded in March). So I do wonder where you are getting these guidelines. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7020e2.htm

>>47406 This makes no sense. 19 /623 got sick and even if you remove the ones sick before 2nd shot its 19/538 which gives you ~3% meanwhile they say 93% not 97%. And then the control got vacced too wtf? And then they dont even account for infection rate among population. If only 2/10 get sick and the vacc prevents 1/10 you dont get 90%, you get 50%.

Has source of the infection been investigated already? Is it true that the virus is man-made and escaped from/was planted by the virology lab in Wuhan, or is it's still le wild bat soup?

>>47427 >Has source of the infection been investigated already? Is it true that the virus is man-made and escaped from/was planted by the virology lab in Wuhan, or is it's still le wild bat soup? At this point, it's a "choose your own theory" thing. On the one hand, the Chinese government is composed of paranoid, secretive, authoritarian monsters with a penchant for genocide and warfare-preparation and who come from a culture where stubborn face-saving is the highest purpose in life, so I wouldn't put it past them to both weaponize a preexisting virus in a lab, and cover it up with whatever means necessary when it all goes wrong on them. On the other hand, the people espousing the lab-leak theory are often paranoid whackos who believe every crackpot conspiracy theory under the sun without demanding the slightest shred of evidence, and figuratively tie themselves in metaphorical knots trying to connect the lab-leak theory to their personal dingbat theories of the Yellow Peril and Red Menace. For me it's not so much a matter of which side I trust more. It's a matter of which side I distrust less. I combine it with a whole lot of "who cares, what does it matter, the body count is 4 million+ regardless of where it came from" disinterest in the origin. But just to throw another conspiracy theory on the fire because it's fun, did you know that there was the military equivalent of the Olympics held in Wuhan in October 2019? (https://www.defense.gov/Explore/Spotlight/CISM-Military-World-Games/) And did you know that some labs at Fort Detrick (the US military's primary biowarfare research facility) were ordered shut down in August 2019 by the CDC over lapses in enforcing proper containment procedures? (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/05/health/germs-fort-detrick-biohazard.html)

>>47428 authoritarian monsters . . . i am here to remind you that by international iso standard taiwan is not independent and that only 15 soykafskin nigger colonies oppose that decision brrrrrrfpppfpp

>>47428 >[...] paranoid, secretive, authoritarian monsters with a penchant for genocide [...] If i would have to choose between who to trust more, the "great, democratic, free US of A", the "great, not as free, but just as democratic European Union", or the "genocidal, authoritarian, horribly evil Peoples Republic of China", i would choose the last one, based on following reasons: -The United States have a long History of preparing and staging Wars across the globe, and then profiting off them, leaving the nations in question in ruin and disarray. Said united States are now saying, that China is big n' evil and prepares war and destroys peoples life, which strikes me as a little hypocritical, and which is why i trust the nation that is decried by the Warmonger-Nationdestroyer-Nation as "evil and bad" -China, as opposed to the US and EU, is in a very precarious Situation, being sanctioned and deprived of important production rights, for example the licenses for producing Micro-chips. Still, they, unlike US and EU, don't despair and instead get Sh!t done, searching alternatives, supporting their native industry, protecting the companies from predatory tactics that can not in any way be explained as "free market competition", but are instead tactics aimed at destroying competitors and maintaining a monopoly. -China is being decried as authoritarian, genociding population groups (uighurs), imposing control over free cities (Hongkong) and other crimes. And no one stops to think about possible motifs that the spreaders of such propaganda may have. The Uighur genocide misinfo campaign is aimed at discrediting the PRC, just as the other propaganda projects of the US. And as the EU is merely a subject of the US, they follow along with their lies. Any Questions you may have, ask them. I am more that happy to answer, unlike the people who lie about China.

>anyone not lying for benefits in politics the only sane option is to not even bother and spend time in happier activities than chasing outrage

>>47437 If I shouldn't believe anything the US government says, then why should I believe that the virus didn't come from China? All of the mainstream media outlets + the WHO have supported the narrative that the virus did not come from China, so by your logic the virus indeed came from China. Or are we going to start nitpicking things said by the US as truth/falsehood by convenience? I'm not saying that US good and China bad, however you should learn to think for yourself instead of going full contrarian, trusting any government is simply foolish. If you don't trust statistics and want visible proof you can easily find it, if you don't want to search for it, should be relatively easy to find something on halfchan.

>>47418 'control' here means they didn't catch covid. This is an observational study, so they don't get to inject anyone with a placebo. Effectiveness is defined by 1 - P(you get covid | you got n doses of vaccine). The data they have here allows them to reconstruct the probability from P(you got n doses of vaccine | you got covid) and P(you got n doses of vaccine | you never got covid). They said they did a "logistical regression" which surpasses my stats knowledge, but my guess is that it adds nonlinearity. 3% of the people who got covid in the study were fully vaccinated, versus 15% of the people who did not get covid. That's fairly convincing to me, however, because of how the sampling for controls worked we can't use Bayes's theorem to produce an actual value (they tried to enroll a certain ratio of controls versus case patients). But you definitely can't just assume P(you get covid | you have 2 doses of vaccine) = P(you have 2 doses of vaccine | you get covid), as you did here >19 /623 got sick and even if you remove the ones sick before 2nd shot its 19/538 which gives you ~3% meanwhile they say 93% not 97%. that's just sloppy stats. What is interesting to me is that so many people in the control group also reported numerous symptoms associated with covid.

>>47440 actually I think Bayes might still apply. Might just need to consider the "you get covid" versus "you don't get covid" conditions to mean they were selected specifically for that trait, rather than at random from a bigger population. If we use the case population, P(you get covid | you got 2 shots >= 2 weeks ago) = (.03*623/1843)/(203/1843) = 0.092 giving effectiveness of a little below 91% if we use the control population we get instead P(you don't get covid | you got 2 shots >= 2 weeks ago) = (.15*1220/1843)/(203/1843) = .901 giving effectiveness a little above 90%. So if we use plain money-brain probability theory on these results we still get effectiveness numbers around 90%.

>>47440 >control didnt catch it what are the covid numbers for then? They are given for both groups. >1 - P(you get covid | you got n doses of vaccine) Why reconstruct when you can simply look at the people who got sick after t 2nd shot immunization kicks in? You can directly calculate it. And if you say its 3% : 15% you get 80% for efficiency which isnt the 90 either.

>>47439 that's why i said >"And no one stops to think about possible motifs that the spreaders of such propaganda may have." We have to look at the motifs of global actors, and judge accordingly. Information has to be analyzed critically, and where we cannot analyze everything (we are still just a bunch of Imageboard avtists, after all), we have to rely primarily on previous Input and results of analysis, to determine the trustworthiness of one or the other statement/article/publication. I didn't dive into the specifics of the covid-case, but as far as i know, the WHO is recognized and respected by the PRC, and it's recommended methods used extensively in China. Additionally, the WHO is an independent Organization, that cannot be accused (At least in my books) of following any financial or political interests. The USA on the other hand, has concrete interests in keeping China on a leash, stunting it's financial growth, maintaining dependence, hindering global influence and political strength. >[...]the US government says[...] the mainstream media outlets [...] As much as any of the right wingers or any other extreme political ideology group want to believe it, a government and media outlets are not one entity, and not fully interlinked. Media outlets CAN BE influenced, but that does not mean that everything they do and publish, has to be approved by the government. Some things are not worth to be manipulated, some things cannot be manipulated because of sufficient public source material, others cannot be manipulated because of general media consensus, that has to be somehow broken before spreading misinfo. inflence is a strong force, but that does not mean that it is working over every little piece of information we get. And this where we have to rely on previous information/analysis, and (to an extent) on our gut, to determine what is right, and what is wrong. >[...]learn to think for yourself [...] Even though you have to make conclussions on a very limited informational basis, and misconclusions can occur, this one still feels like an insult. Not that i take it to heart, but it does feel like it.

>>47443 >>47443 >what are the covid numbers for then? Where? I see no row for whether or not they got covid. >Why reconstruct when you can simply look at the people who got sick after t 2nd shot immunization kicks in? You can directly calculate it. because that is not the data that was collected. They waited until after people tested positive to see if they were vaccinated. This is supposed to avoid bias that might happen while following a pre-selected group (as would happen in a clinical study). https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/effectivenessqa.htm for more info. Apparently I was wrong about how exactly effectiveness is defined: it's supposed to measure reduction in rates of illness for vaccinated individuals versus unvaccinated. The way they calculate it is using something called "matched pairs" which they have info about here https://www.cdc.gov/epiinfo/user-guide/statcalc/matchedpaircasecontrol.html The number I came up with would be something like a posteriori efficacy, not effectiveness. The more you know! >And if you say its 3% : 15% you get 80% for efficiency which isnt the 90 either. I already explained why that doesn't work. *Please* refrain from trying to critique methodology if you don't know basic statistics.

>>47444 >Additionally, the WHO is an independent Organization, that cannot be accused (At least in my books) of following any financial or political interests. The problem with the WHO (and this could extend to any other organization, but I digress) is that it has a leadership, and therefore it is subject to the agenda of the ones that lead it. My memory is terrible and I will have a hard time recalling events, however you can see an example of this at https://healthpolicy-watch.news/the-world-health-organizations-censorship-of-report-on-italys-pandemic-response-sets-dangerous-conflicts-of-interest-precedent/ . The fact that they actively engage in censorship is the fact that the WHO is not devoid of political interests. >As much as any of the right wingers or any other extreme political ideology group want to believe it, a government and media outlets are not one entity, and not fully interlinked. Before starting, let me disclaim that I do not particularly like Trump, however it is however strange how they seem to coordinate their articles. For example, they actively buried any articles (if any were published) related to the Hunter Biden scandal, and turns out this actually affected the election results (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/media-s-hiding-of-hunter-biden-scandal-robbed-trump-of-clear-win-poll/ar-BB1aZGcF), not only that but Big Tech figures admitted on Forbes proudly that they were coordinating to "contain misinformation" (though this particular one I can't find so you'll either have to trust me or search for it yourself), not to mention that they have many investors in common, it's not like they don't have reasons or means to coordinate. There are many more issues with the media but those articles are just examples. >Even though you have to make conclussions on a very limited informational basis, and misconclusions can occur, this one still feels like an insult. Not that i take it to heart, but it does feel like it. It was not meant to be an insult and I apologize if it sounded so. But it does confuse my why you think China is somehow good, every argument I've heard from you (not only in this thread but also in others) is either an assumption, circular reasoning or "because USA bad". Even if I were to not trust the many statistics and video proofs of the misdeeds of China (such as welding people shut in their rooms at the start of the pandemic, the atrocious buildings that could (and do) fall at any time, the three gorges dam, the tiananmen square massacre, the use of violence towards hong-kong (which clearly does not want to be under china's jurisdiction), the general disdain of life from the chinese, wet markets, and many, many more which I ill refrain from listing as to not get more off-topic than this reply already is), while I have never been to China personally, my father has, and while he doesn't talk much about that place (except for the fact that the real estate bubble is real and it shows), he certainly dislikes it.

>>47445 What do you believe this is?

>>47444 >who is independent sry to tell you but the leader of the who is known in his home country for denying vaccination. They are tribalistic and he denied it the other tribe. So much for unbiased health focused. The fact that such a leader exists proves they are corrupt.

>>47450 ? it is clearly labelled as the number of people in the controls column (people who did not test positive for covid) who received their second dose >= 7 days before they were tested.

>>47449 I honestly dunno anymore, chummer. I guess i should have stayed on /comfy/. Discussing World politics isn't good for me, and i'm probably seeming very uneducated, but it is what it is. Sorry for wasting your time, and probably everyone else's who read my posts. my beliefs can be pretty much summed up as: >fvck the Vaccine. >fvck the government. >fvck america, fvck EU, leave russia alone (i believe crimea is russian, and not ukrainian). >fvck society, tech-hobo 4 the win >alcohol is good for the brain. now that i have outed myself for my beliefs, lemme go and /vent/.

>>47441 this is incomplete. You should also calculate P(you get covid | you get no shots) and P(you don't get covid | you get no shots) relevant numbers are ((340/623)*(623/1843))/(642/1843) = .52 , ((302/1220)*(1220/1843))/(642/1843) = .47 so while, in this sample, you have a 9-10% of being in the "got covid" column if you have all your shots, you have a 52-53% chance of being in the "got covid" column if you have gotten no shots. A question you might have: can I therefore attribute only 40% "efficacy" to the vaccine, since the difference between those numbers is .4? No! If the vaccine were "100% effective", intuitively meaning that it is impossible to get covid if you were vaccinated, you would arrive at only 52% efficacy by that method, so it is obviously incorrect. You have to use (.52 - .10)/.52 = .81 to normalize it. The reason this isn't the number they output is because they were using a modified chi-squared test, which involves testing a null hypothesis instead of straightforward conditional probabilities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McNemar%27s_test Note that a significant portion of people in both columns had symptoms of covid-19, and they specifically sampled so that there would be roughly three controls per case-patient.

>>47456 everyone got covid in the case patient group >HCP with a positive SARS-CoV-2 polymerase chain reaction (PCR) or antigen-based test result and at least one COVID-19–like illness symptom§ were enrolled as case-patients

>>47457 Oh and because they got no data previous to first shot the entire table has literally not a single person with zero vaccination. What you are comparing here is only people who got sick before and vacced vs people who didnt get sick and got vacced. The gap merely shows that people who got sick before are 9x less likely to get sick among fully vacced.

>>47457 yes, that is what "case patient group" was defined as. >>47458 >Oh and because they got no data previous to first shot the entire table has literally not a single person with zero vaccination. that is not true. Look at the "unvaccinated" row. I am beginning to think you are intentionally misunderstanding the data, I find it hard to believe that someone could be apparently literate but unable to come to even the most basic of valid conclusions about what they are reading.

>>46980 The immunocompromised were already bound to die.

>>46380 Not even close to true here in the worst state in the unione (CA). Pure ragebait here.

Are vaccines released under GNU license or similar? I'm skeptic about running proprietary code on my wetware.

>>47462 there is no unvaccinated row wtf are you on? The control is the group that didnt test cov positive. Thats all there is to it. They start at 14d after first shot for both groups which already gives a basic immunization.

>>47476 *The control is the group that didnt test cov positive prior to the study gotta be precise before people misunderstand again

>>47476 ok, well, you are clearly pretending to be retarded. if anyone reads this little subthread and thinks this guy might be right, see for yourself in https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7020e2.htm what we're talking about, it is not hard to understand the study design or results.

>>47395 That is not the point, I am glad that we have vaccines that do save people and it is not uncontroversial to think everyone who needs them should have access. But this is something completely different. There is no choosing for yourself, we are vaccinating all groups without long term data and (in part) new technologies. Everyone is just taking the bullying like cattle, just like I am, because how do you stop your government? If you even make the suggestion that maybe we shouldn't force medicine into everyone's bodies people suddenly think your a sociopath who doesn't have feelings. We have shown the dangers of covid and there is nothing to be hysterical about. If you can't see what's wrong with your government forcing (sub-) yearly vaccination on you without liability and taking your freedoms otherwise, I don't know what to say to you.

>>47561 Honestly, without trying to sound edgy or something, I think people are just cattle. It occurred to me after watching the events of the past 7 years unfold, that the majority of people are simply going to go along with anything their government tells them to, as long as they keep their food and comforts. H3ck, not even comforts are needed, just being fed and warm is enough for them. I think that every state can be turned into a communist hellhole and back, the people will go along. As I see it, let it just roll. if you don't want to be a part of it, look for ways to leave for another country, or go innawoods and live off the land. If you want to stop such developments, well, then you better start getting a group of like-minded people together, and start sabotaging the state at a basic level: not the vaccines need to be targeted, not Hospitals, only the basic infrastructure that provides the basic needs of people, those being food production facilities, water treatment plants, electricity generation... But hey, that's only for the ones that do want to change the current state of affairs. I'm not larping that I'm actually going to do this, but this is merely some tips on how to do it. Take care chummers.

>>47506 What kinda mental issues do you have to understand dose 1 >14 days means the first table entry is already after the first shot?

>>46107 Got the pfizer and gotta say that it seems better to have your arm hurt for a day than get a brain fog for the rest of your life.

>>46107 They c|amp, vaccinate, and circumcise.

>>47428 On the other hand, the people espousing the lab-leak theory are often paranoid whackos who believe every crackpot conspiracy theory under the sun without demanding the slightest shred of evidence, and figuratively tie themselves in metaphorical knots trying to connect the lab-leak theory to their personal dingbat theories of the Yellow Peril and Red Menace. I am a proponent of the lab-leak theory, only because I have read several case studies concerning lab-leak scenarios daring back years before wuhan. The first thing that came to mind when I read the facts was nothing other than lab-leak. I primarily base my belief on the idea that china clearly has an impeccable safety record that holds its citizenry in the highest regard in terms of safety and wellbeing. I work in the safety sector and I routinely inspect facilities and I know that many facilities around the world take shortcuts to save money, and many "experts" will usually fail to adhere to safety standards for convenience.

>>47586 same, it just makes the most sense. Plus I get to imagine the hilarity of a bunch of Chinese scientists bungling their way through containment procedures.

>>47586 By that logic, the the US is just as likely to be the source of a lab leak infecting Wuhan, given the documented evidence of the US army's Fort Detrick containment lapses in summer of 2019 followed by the US army's presence in Wuhan for international military sports competitions in autumn of 2019, and the US government's utter contempt for the safety of its own citizens. I just want to see evidence one way or the other. Not conjecture, anecdotes, opinion, hearsay, rumours, or estimates. Just evidence. Until then I'm not taking a position.

>>47586 The more obvious point is the indean research team that suggested right at start its artificial cause they found the rna sequence would statistically unlikely occur naturally and seemed to contain parts of other crap. They only pulled back cause they got heat from all sides right after publishing >>47589 >unless mr ping posts on facebook its real it aint real based skeptic

I currently thinking whether I should go and get the first shot or not. I'm tired of this covid hysteria and would like it to end, but to be honest I'm not sure if this is gonna end even after vaccinations. I have already heard talk about a third shot possibly being necessary, so it doesn't seem like this is going to end anytime soon. Also, I'm still quite sceptical about the possible long term effects of the vaccines. It kind of smells like bullshit that they just suddenly came up with a completely new kind of vaccine in just a few months. The fact that it doesn't completely protect from the disease also smells. I always had the thought that vaccines protect you pretty much completely, but apparently that isn't true anymore in <current year>. I don't really know. There are almost no restrictions where I live, but it was like this a year ago too. I'm waiting to see if the restrictions are going to come back in the autumn.

>>47628 >Also, I'm still quite sceptical about the possible long term effects of the vaccines. It kind of smells like bullshit that they just suddenly came up with a completely new kind of vaccine in just a few months. They didn't. mRNA vaccine tech has been in the works for over a decade, aimed originally at cancer treatments and other communicable diseases like the flu. We're damn lucky the tech was mature and ready for human trials when COVID hit.

>>47634 however the ones on the market are the first to ever be admitted for use in humans, while any previous attempt struggled to get through animal testing

>>47628 Purely theorising here: I think they're going to keep everyone on a leash, injecting new mutations every few months, and making vaccination refreshing mandatory at least every year, to protect from the new strains. This is simply a new religion in my book, everyone must pray to be saved/everyone must be vaccinated to be safe. Btw, does anyone have tips on setting up a parallel society/gang/group to be independent from covid-society? I got the basics down like being self sufficient, having own system of trading, basic law, defense and networking, but maybe I'm missing something.

>>47639 >Btw, does anyone have tips on setting up a parallel society/gang/group to be independent from covid-society? I got the basics down like being self sufficient, having own system of trading, basic law, defense and networking, but maybe I'm missing something. Where would you do something like that? Just hide in the woods?

>>47640 Not in Europe. Practically no place to hide. I was thinking about Siberia, specifically the Altai mountains. Lots of wooded area, natural water sources, hot in the summer, cold in the winter, easy to hide and set up a settlement, especially since there are quite a few abandoned settlements all over Siberia since the Soviet Union fell apart.

>>47641 The hardest part is probably to find people who are interested, healthy, and have the ability to pursue something like that. And even then, I don't know if you could really hide that long without being detected. Also, you will eventually need something that you can't produce on your own. to be honest, these dreams about going into the woods to live a completely self sufficient life don't sound very realistic. You could probably do it for a while, but eventually there's gonna be something that requires you to either get into contact with the outside world or die. Now, whether living long is your objective is a different question. I'm worried about this covid dystopia, but I'm not sure if running into the woods is any better on the long term. Probably depends on how far this covid soykaf will go.

>>47642 >Also, you will eventually need something that you can't produce on your own. to be honest, these dreams about going into the woods to live a completely self sufficient life don't sound very realistic. There's way too many people who skimmed through "Walden" without realizing that Henry David Thoreau's "rugged life away from civilization" took place about a leisurely 15-minute walk from a decent-sized town.

>>47639 People dont separate from society, they just get a fake vacc pass. Thats' factually whats happening right now. Some do even the full larp. Saw a stealth video where doc basically just pretends to give a vacc without injecting and stamps him vacced. In a way it should have been obvious - forging documents that are mandatory is a universal process whether its passports or degrees.

>>47642 No no, it's not the full blown innawoods survival thing I'm talking about, but rather having a real settlement, just out of sight, where my group could grow their own crops, stockpile supplies, seek shelter and live a free life in general. As I said, there's a lot abandoned villages and kolkhzes in Siberia, and we wouldn't have to start from scratch. >Things that you cannot produce yourselves That is a hard one, I admit. Some things, like electronics and supplies to repair them are impossible to produce in such a situation. This can be circumvented by establishing connections to people who are still living in the society and are willing to trade high tech for natural resources or food (quality meat/fish will probably be in demand, but also low tech items like knives, cooking utensils and tools made from quality materials, as globalization will probably continue having a detrimental effect on product quality). On the other hand, a rural lifestyle with its hardships leaves little time for media/electronics/high tech entertainment. Maybe we won't need high tech/special tools. But I should consider it, just in case. Maybe a small subgroup could do trading and scavenging, therefore providing otherwise unobtainable resources for the group.

>>47643 >There's way too many people who skimmed through "Walden" without realizing that Henry David Thoreau's "rugged life away from civilization" took place about a leisurely 15-minute walk from a decent-sized town. I haven't read his books, but is that really true? If you think about it, it's not that surprising really.

>>47644 This is true, but still being inside society is not something desired by all. Those people, who are willing to forge documents and stay inside as parasites/antisocial elements, are a big potential target for trade activities, so basically beneficial for full blown separatists.

>>47645 One problem that comes to mind is how to maintain a coherent and independent culture over time... if it is too harsh people will slowly leave, if it is too comfortable people will join and dilute out the original intent. What if a government tries to strong arm you, or a business sets up shop right next door? There needs to be an idea that can unify people so that there is enough resistance.

>>47646 Okay I checked and his cabin was located like 2 miles from Concord, Massachusetts, which already had a population of 2249 in the year 1850. So yeah, he wasn't that separated from civilization

>>47628 >I have already heard talk about a third shot possibly being necessary, so it doesn't seem like this is going to end anytime soon. People talk about it but there's very little data to support it. If you trace where the suggestion came from, you find that Pfizer and the government of Israel are the ones who thinks a third shot is necessary. Not exactly the most trustworthy sources. > always had the thought that vaccines protect you pretty much completely You thought wrong. Very few vaccines are actually as effective as the current mRNA covid vaccines, which is a big plus for the technology if it turns out to be safe. >I'm waiting to see if the restrictions are going to come back in the autumn. I wouldn't be surprised if they did, but I would be surprised if people entertained the idea as much as they have in the past. Retrospectively, the last one didn't really work, and the whole justification for it was because the whole world was 'virgin population' for SARS2, now it isn't.

>>47586 I always figured it was the opposite. China wants you to think it's a lab leak (or even deliberate), because that's much less embarrassing than it coming as a result of poor living standards and an abject failure to regulate wet markets.

do you even read what you write ? literally every country has poor people , especially those pretending they do not - china wants it to be a lab leak - chinese people have actual triple digit iq - here and there - their leaders all have triple digit iq , and no smart man will ever openly admit that he is not smart ; you absolute double digit iq retard >>47652

>w-we need 95% vaccination rate to defeat Delta!!! Ok so we're finally going to vaccinate every mink, cat, dog and ferret?

>>47653 Either post your iq, or shut up about what "smart men" do or don't do.

>>47562 It is disturbing how quickly people are adopting a mindset forced on to them, without most of them questioning any consequences or potential faults, not to mention just being downright lied to. We had the american gov spraying ddt on people, they claimed it was safe at that time, now we know it wasnt. >>47636 This is a gene therapy deployed on mass scale, this is not just some new pharmaceutical that will make a few people sick. Regardless that this basically basically constitutes using humans as guinea pigs even though human rights and international law forbid forcing humans as medical test subjects. Also there is little to no third party information available on what it really is or does, it might well be magic at this point, the only ones truely in the know are the ones at the highest level who decide what information is allowed to be released. >>47642 I assume the capable ones have already run for the exits. Personally i found that running into the woods absolutely beats long tern exposure to "civilization", even if i die basically its better to die out there rather than slowly rotting away in this toxic hell known as modern society. Its quick to judge based on material needs and convenience, but if you look at the long term consequences of living like this, you might reconsider. I suppose as time progresses more and more people would be willing to do so, however i have a hunch that the state will gladly stop that from happening. Until there is a level of attention the state will do nothing, however once people are involved, problems usually follow. >>47643 Dont know about that, but there are lots of accounts of people who lived in the woods and skimmed by, its not all that hard if you have knowledge and some methods. What comes to mind is the one guy who lived like 25 years in the woods just stealing from huts. With populations probably lowering either way, its not unrealistic to assume land will be available. >>47644 But for how long do you expect this to go? It is clear they want to force this soykaf on people any way possible, it is only a matter of time until they will resort to much more drastic measures. Eventually it will be as good as impossible to fake it, atleast without high resources in both money and connections. This is just a continuation of the legal drug mafias agenda, its already gone so far with pharmaceticals, there is no way they will ever let go of the vax business now that it went so well, almost the entire mainstream world is now based on scare, this will never ever stop now until someone stops it or we all die.

>>47657 >Impossible to fake Good point. Modern electronic verification tech is cheap and widespread enough to used as a citizen Vax passport. Got you vaccine? You get an electronic verification stamp on a chip that you always carry with you (maybe even implanted at that point?). Don't have that stamp? Well, no social interaction for you. Pure quarantine, everyone treating you like a criminal, maybe you'll even loose your job. The future is scary chummers.

>>47658 >Well, no social interaction for you. Pure quarantine, everyone treating you like a criminal, maybe you'll even loose your job. >The future is scary chummers. This isnt the future, its already the past.

>>47657 >This is a gene therapy depending what you mean by "gene therapy" (genes are in fact involved), this isn't true. The main difference between mRNA vaccines and regular vaccines is that in a regular vaccine an actual virus is used, just one that's been hobbled. In this case the virus they inject is artificial and cannot reproduce. The absolute worst possible thing that could happen with it would be prions, but those are probably more likely to be caused by smoking or inhaling engine exhaust. One of the main advantages is that it might actually one day help to vaccinate against HIV, which is a retrovirus and does actually directly modify your DNA, making it untenable for typical vaccination for precisely the reasons why you are afraid of mRNA vaccines. >Also there is little to no third party information available on what it really is or does what constitutes a "third party"? The FDA and CDC both have oversight, and if there turns out to be serious problems they actually have accountability to the public (unlike vaccine manufacturers). >>47658 In the US the only reliable method anyone has to check vaccination status is a flimsy paper card that you could forge with a sticker printer. People are retarded enough that they get cell phones, which not only track you but can also record your conversations and read your conversations. They're a way more reliable way to track people than a mere vaccine pass could be.

>>47670 oh yeah, I should note, I have literally never been asked for my vaccine card. It has been sitting in my desk since I got it. Everyone knows it's easy to forge so they just use the honor system.

>>47670 Good point about the vaccine card, but who's to say that it won't change in the future? As far as I know, the us also uses a simple plastic card for an ID, while in Europe (Germany to be specific), the electronic ID card is standard now. Why can't the government just decide to upgrade vaccine passes for muh convenience/muh safety, making it impossible for people to forge them?

>>47683 The quality of the pass itself doesnt even matter. Make it foolproof so what? People can continue to get a fake visit at their doc buddy and get the stamp. The process itself is what they cant secure. Even if you start recording full dystopia in every doc office - just switch to salt water injection and roleplay on camera. Camera cant tell its not a real vacc. tldr: faking it will never be impossible.

>>47698 This is not 1933, everything is online now. The way you prove immigration status in the UK is you log into a government website and generate a code. Then the bank/employer/police enter that code into the website and it tells them how long you are allowed to stay in the country. You can't fake that. That's probably how they will do vaccine passports too.

>>47700 Why are you like this? You dont understand the basic issue. Someone has to put it into the db first.

>>47701 >Someone has to put it into the db first. They put you in the database when you get the vaccine. >Why are you like this? You dont understand the basic issue. Explain it then instead of being menstrual about it.

>>47702 I already explained in the first post. Youre either unable to read or argue to the point. The doc visit can be faked and your verification security becomes entirely pointless.

>>47707 >Youre either unable to read or argue to the point. Or you have autism and don't realize not everyone you are responding to is the same person and other people can't read your mind and instantly know what "first post" you are referring to. >The doc visit can be faked and your verification security becomes entirely pointless. A doctor is going to risk his freedom and career to fake the verification for you?

>>47711 its literally occurring right now you delusional fuarrrk. You can buy university degrees and you think theres nobody who would fake a vacc visit for money.

>>47717 The difference is that fake university degrees are not dicking over the government. The government can fine you and put you in jail for defying them. Universities can't. Doctors also need a government license to do any work in the first place. So what do you need to pay to bribe a 30 year old doctor to risk 30 years of future doctor salary? Plus the risk of any other punishments. Or do you think the government won't track down and punish doctors who fake vaccine passports?

>>47717 The difference is, that faking a vaccination status becomes increasingly more difficult, with each step up in security that the process gets. Faking a paper slip with a signature? Easy. A cardboard booklet with print and a proofstamp? Slightly harder, but still doable, just need a sample of the real thing. A paper or plastic card with a security hologram? Yeah, no, those things are personalized and stamped at a central printing plant, where they have the tech (and most importantly: the permission) to do stuff like this. And to do this, you need to have knowledge of the whole process, and you need to have someone who can put through your order. You need contacts, knowledge, social skills, and you definitely need a good sum of hard cash, in order to pull of such an operation. And at that point, you can just as well turn it into a business. Now, do you understand why fvcking off innawoods is definitely a good option for lainons (at least the ones, who don't want to stay inside the society)?

>>47683 the federal government already basically said they will not implement vaccine cards (I think Joe Biden said it's "not our responsibility"). And if they port over to a new system, they will have to get everybody over from the old one. There are definitely a lot of people where the only evidence they were ever vaccinated is their CDC card. >>47720 >So what do you need to pay to bribe a 30 year old doctor to risk 30 years of future doctor salary? not a lot, if weed doctors are any indication.

>>47724 >if they port over to a new system, they will have to get everybody over from the old one. That's a good point, whatever system a country has been using for the last 6 months will be a hole in whatever future system they try to switch to.

>make testing mandatory for being a part of society >introduce vaccines as a relief from that burden >begin making vaccines mandatory in specific fields >restrict which tests can be used >begin considering charging money for testing >make testing mandatory to cross borders >phase in booster shots The script has been writing itself for a while now, when will it stop?

Yoo I don't understand this at all since when are we all supposed to have opinions on immunology and molecular biology?

>>48222 Financial literacy paired with a psychopath mindset would serve far better than a biology degree in understanding the current meta.

>>48220 The script has not been writing itself for a while now, this has turned out exactly as predicted, but most people just havent payed attention. Its so painfully obvious this is one huge setup to get people comply, they dont even really try to hide it. This is not going to stop, this is going to halt once every action you can do is electronically approved. Or someone or something makes this stop, because they will not do it. There was a huge demonstration in the city just the other day, the pigs were all ready and set to fuarrrk people up, i think they were trying to provoke, luckly nothing happened. This thing is just way out of control, i hear people talking about vaxes like going to the club, how many shots do they need to fuarrrking take. You cant even sit outdoors in a restaurant without having to register in some gov id with some soykaf app, is this fuarrrking supposed to be freedom! People just go along and expect it all to be fine, but when has anything the gov ever did end up not in ruining peoples lives, one might think people would have learned something from 50 years war on drugs and scandals, security problems and corruption at every level would have thought them better. Now they all suck the big pharma cock, just cuz its free doesnt mean you should fuarrrking take it, where does all that money come from and where will it go, certainly not back into peoples pockets. People just cant wake up, its dead set in motion now, if anyone is still suprised how much further this will go, i dont feel sorry for them.

>>46107 I try to look on the bright side. My industry is full of businesses that compete directly with American ones for clients in several global industries. Thanks to social acceptance of mask-wearing and mass uptake of vaccines, our supply chains and workforce reliability has remained very stable despite us already loosening all other restrictions. In my industry I'm starting to see several big clients (as in 10-figure-quarterly-revenue big) signing supply contracts with suppliers in my country, despite our historically higher-than-American-supplier prices. They're projecting further collapse of American supply chains and a lack of trained workers in the next 3-4 years due to poor vaccination rates and a near total lack of distancing and mask practices. Going with us means maybe 7-8% higher COG on average, but it's far less risky. We're even seeing some American businesses buying from us, which is completely unheard of, because their own internal supply chains are a complete soykafshow. So my "silver lining" to this mess is that my country is already cleaning up on long-term supply contracts that used to go to the Americans, solely due to their handling of COVID. So, uh, American friends, please keep on questioning the science of the vaccines. The domestic stocks in my retirement portfolio are making a killing.

>>48220 Did you notice that we even started to test employees for a few drugs and prevent them from working if they test positive?

>>48234 fan fiction larp us isnt even the worst on vacc nor does anyone predict a collapse from a lack of subservience. Otherwise we would already panic over india which is hosting western pharma production.

>>48227 exactly my thoughts, it's just very sad and pitiful to watch; we can just pray that it only looks like we passed the point of no return >>48235 oh my god

So, what's the plan then? Anyone having any ideas on how to go on? Because arguing about it on a lainthemed IB sure as heck isn't gonna help.

>>48236 >a collapse from a lack of subservience If the corrupt government-media-pharma complex keeps pushing the fear and vaccines narrative passed the point where most people have stopped buying it then there probably will be problems. The scary thing is that there is a bigger and bigger gap between people who stopped buying the bullshit and people who have had their brains completely fried by non-stop fear porn for 1 1/2 years.

>>48268 >So, what's the plan then? Calculate your own risk, take the precautions you want to take and then stop ruining everyone else's life.

>>48270 >Ruining others life How do I do this.

>>48268 bruh we just chit chatting here exactly cus its pointless and we figured out that the more we do things of consequence the worse it gets, if ure so dead set on getting soykaf done go talk to ppl who matter in ur life and therell be consequences.

>>48272 Could just as well go watch some animu then.

>>48271 >How do I do this. By supporting lockdowns and mask mandates and vaccines. If you really think those things help then there's no reason to force everyone else to do it with you.

The last few weeks I have been looking into studies about the effects of covid and the spike protein on the brain and studies about the covid vaccine. I read some things that seem disturbing to me and am looking for opinions about it. In the assessment report by Moderna about the Moderna/Spikevax mRNA vaccine suplied to the EMA you can read that mRNA was found in the brain tissue of rats. Meaning the mRNA/LNP platforn crossed the blood/brain barrier. https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/documents/assessment-report/spikevax-previously-covid-19-vaccine-moderna-epar-public-assessment-report_en.pdf (at the bottom of page 47) There are also papers that state that the spike protein is harmful on it's own like this one: https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCRESAHA.121.318902 I also read this paper on SARS-CoV-2 causing formation of Lewy bodies in macaques(monkeys) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/349573313_SARS-CoV-2_causes_brain_inflammation_and_induces_Lewy_body_formation_in_macaques If the blood brain barrier of rats is crossed by the mRNA does this mean chances are high this will happen in humans to? And has anyone encountered research about this, I think it would be stange if something like this isn't researched. And if the mRNA crosses the blood brain barrier wouldn't this mean that when the mRNA crosses the blood brain barrier and instructs cells to create the spike protein this will be harmful to your brain?

>>48486 If you want to go down the harmful rabbit hole ive seen women complain about menstrual issues right after getting a shot and some discussion about spike concentrating in ovaries and potentially causing issues with fertility. It reminds me a bit of the 60s where sleeping pills were found in hindsight to cause birth defects. If this causes some fertility issues its gonna be a fun ride.

>>48486 At that point though, whether it's a live vaccine or just the protein means you're kinda fuarrrked in both ways anyway. And even more so if you get unattenuated infection, because this would demonstrate it can cross the brain barrier. Which we already kind of knew from meningitis cases caused by covid. Arguably just the protein is likely to be less harmful than the real thing, but it's possible there's just no fully harmless option.

>>48488 The thing I'am concerned about is that if the mRNA crosses the blood brain barrier wouldn't there be a lot more spike protein that would reach the brain because it would be produced there.

>>48487 >If you want to go down the harmful rabbit hole If you want a whitepill then the harm is probably not deliberate. If the elites wanted to depopulate or something, why would they start with the lemmings who fell for the propaganda and rushed out to get the vaccines first. Surely it's the other people they would want to get rid of.

>>48497 Didnt intend to mark it as intentional. The pills weren't intentional back then either. It was just a effect not caught after it was already too late. The problem is even if they know it now- its too late to admit. Damage control is best done pretending it ain't true so you don't have to pay soykaf. And luckily you also signed a waiver that nobody is responsible for any damage caused by the vacc when you took the shot. So the financial driven choice is continue selling it pretending to know nothing to avoid losing money on a giant stack of currently shipped charges. tldr the problem is hiding is more profitable than admitting you found an issue.

>>48497 It's not (only) about depopulation. The people who would most likely get damaged by the vaccine are the ones who already have impaired immune systems, so this vaccine (and the virus, for that matter) is something like the eugenics program of the nazis, just without the camps and the gassings. The important point is, this vaccine is just the precursor of making the entire earths population dependent on big pharma selling them a solution to a problem that ideally would solve itself, if it wasn't for "muh human lives". Everyone who steps out of line gets gated from society, unable to participate and live among others. This is, of course, an ideal scenario, and it will probably not apply everywhere and to everyone, as other interest groups will try to get a piece of the pie, and will help people to "eat without paying", for a monetary compensation of course. But it will encompass a sufficient enough fraction of the human population, that it'll have the effect of regulating the population as a whole. At this point, i wouldn't be surprised if it causes infertility, as that would be a very convenient solution to the high birth rates in black and arabic families across the globe, if they manage to vaccinate those groups. i just fell asleep for a few minutes, and lost my train of thought. I'll just leave this here, and try to continue tomorrow. good night.

>>48486 There has been testing for biodistribution but as far as I can tell the data is only available in grey literature so it's not exactly easy to index. It also wasn't done with the vaccine itself but instead with the LNP/mRNA platform, since regulators didn't imagine that spike protein was biologically active it's left a blind spot. I've heard that there's also data to suggest that spike protein can be cleaved out of the cell walls it presents on, but again it's grey-lit and again when viewing that data it wasn't expected that spike was cytotoxic. Page 16/17 of this document gives a full table of results from the biodistribution testing Japan requested. https://www.pmda.go.jp/drugs/2021/P20210212001/672212000_30300AMX00231_I100_1.pdf Peaks in the liver and injection site are to be expected and brain seems to stay quite low, only getting a few thousandths of a percent of the dose. According to those data the trouble spots seem to be bone marrow and ovaries.

>>48497 if it is not intentional why are they pushing it so hard? why try to force people who take it who do not need it? children, those already infected, literally anyone under 50 or 60 who is healthy... if its only pharma companies trying to sell as much as possible then why did vaccine passports and "antivax" rhetoric pop up overnight?

>>48500 >so this vaccine (and the virus, for that matter) is something like the eugenics program of the nazis God, I wish. The dominant motif of the ruling system is instead the opposite: The fostering of weakness, deformity, ugliness at every opportunity. Hence why it's unlikely you'll see anyone "solve" the high birth rates in black and arabic families across the globe, it's a desired feature.

>>48523 Swine flu was a financial failure cause most people didnt buy the panic and they were left with massive unsold stocks. As a consequence there was demand to make it mandatory to have guaranteed sales. One side effect you could see was the antivaxx propaganda popping out right after - anyone who doesn't like a vaxx is an enemy witch to be hunted down. Buy our soykaf or else! And the morons now talk about "free vaxx" but nothing is free. Apparently it costs $3k which means if they convince only 10m to vaxx they make already 3 billion and that's a lot of money but you know your population is not just 10m its much more. Its enough money to kill anyone standing in your way.

The country I'm from never did soykaf to prevent spreading until it was too late They kept allowing flights from high risk zones, never tested arrivals or personnel We're well known for letting our population rot so we can serve the holy airlines Why would one of the most profit oriented and polluted countries in the world not bother getting people to take the vaccine?

>>48500 >so this vaccine (and the virus, for that matter) is something like the eugenics program of the nazis The point still stands though, if the goal is control the population then why would you kill off the weak body and weak minded people first? Nazis wanted to build a "race" of super soldiers to fight in their global race war. I don't think the same motivation applies here. >this vaccine is just the precursor of making the entire earths population dependent on big pharma Yeah that's scary. >>48523 >if it is not intentional why are they pushing it so hard? I meant the harm is probably not intentional. Hopefully the reason they are pushing so hard is because they want to maximize profits and minimize waste. Because the vaccines have a shelf life too, so sticking children is better than throwing it away from their perspective. Politicians are pushing because they can't just admit that they overreacted and destroying the economy with lockdowns and masks and stuff was a mistake. Vaccines are a convenient way for politicians to pretend they actually did something to end the pandemic. I think that's why between pharma and government, nobody cares if the vaccine works or how dangerous it is or whatever. Both just want to push the vaccine onto as many people as possible for their own selfish reasons.

>>48539 >Why kill the old and weak? I misphrased it by using the word eugenics. It's actually more like a clean up. I don't know about the US, but in Germany, there is a big problem with a growing amount of old people, who cannot contribute as much to the economy as the youngsters, and as such are more of a burden. The problem is, they are a wise and experienced burden, that could take a long, hard look at the situation, and start taking influence on the young ones, to role them up against the current system. So the best solution is to kill them off, and leave the young, dumb, rootless kids as cannon fodder and workforce. >>48526 >it's unlikely you'll see anyone "solve" the high birth rates in black and arabic families across the globe Except that it's desirable for race mixing, creating ethnic tensions, and creating a dumb workforce. Since a lot of Arabs don't want to work for pennies though, they're eligible for decimation. And after that, they will get assimilated into the mix, in order to create a mass of dumb proles. >Inb4 fascist I did follow the fascist and national socialist ideology for a while, but thankfully managed to get a hold of myself. I still see a problematic agenda, but I do not endorse genocide and discrimination anymore, since I started interacting with people more. I still think the earth is overpopulated tho.

>Germany >The problem is, they are a wise and experienced burden, that could take a long, hard look at the situation, and start taking influence on the young ones, to role them up against the current system hard lol. Old fossils are the major voting block of the ruling parties. Their are trained npcs voting for the same old parties that fuarrrked the country since 4 decades ago. If you snuffed them out old ruling parties would lose most.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=09maaUaRT4M (or if you prefer, try this alternative youtube frontend by picking one of the links at https://invidio.us/watch?v=09maaUaRT4M) This video is just incredible. It consisely summarizes the struggle of our times, oh, wait, it was just in the making this year. I recommend you share this with everyone you know, don't let the mass psychosis be any longer. Governments should not take our freedoms even if it means fighting a pandemic.

>>48811 >Governments should not take our freedoms even if it means fighting a pandemic. The virus thanks you for your service.

>>48823 >im against natural selection thanks satan

>>48824 Natural selection is for lower animals roaming the wilderness. If you're satisfied living like a poo-flinging ape, well, go nuts. I aim for a higher station for humans than that.

>>48825 Considering natural selection merely selects for viability, and not say... intelligence or social capabilities beyond what happens to not lead to dying before reproducing, I don't think it's a particularly useful model. Ignoring defects and problems that should normally lead to death has been a major benefit of civilization, it has also enabled incentive models based on something other than mere ability to reproduce before death.

>>48826 That's one of the most verbose ways to say "I'm a big fan of eugenics" that I've ever heard.

>>48825 Turn on the news Look at the government Then tell me, honestly, that you don't think we have devolved to being a "lower species"

>>48828 It's amusingly unfortunate that you understood the exact opposite of what I was saying. My argument was precisely that the animalistic eugenics normally enforced by nature are removed from the equation by civilization, and I think we're that much better off for it.

>>48825 The removal of consequences to bad decisions leads to retards surviving and pollution the gene pool further. And there's is a simple difference to eugenics - eugenics is people selecting who deserves to live. Natural selection is simply a matter of not interfering with idiots killing themselves.

>>48832 Nature breeds for sufficient viability. It doesn't breed for excellence, nor more cleverness than is required to survive until reproduction. Stop worshiping it. Idiots with a lack of foresight tend to reproduce earlier and more, they have better reproductive fitness. This directly goes against your own argument.

>>48833 Nature breeds for sufficient viability and youre lowering the bar. Thats why the outcome turns worse.

>>48833 You are oversimplifying natural selection. It is not as simple as just surviving until breeding.

>>48859 >You are oversimplifying natural selection. It is not as simple as just surviving until breeding. It is for r-type species. However humans are K-type and so the parents must invest much more resources to produce a viable offspring (i.e., abandoned babies would just die). However, they are right that natural selection will never lead to a significant reduction in retardation. The main reason the world is full of retards isn't that we have medicine that lets retards live. If anything medicine has made it so that more smart people can do smart-people things without constantly worrying about whether they'll get tuberculosis or something (RIP Bernhard Riemann). The reason the world is full of retards is that retardation tends to be a successful strategy. Only in the face of a true catastrophe (which covid barely registers as) does it matter whether your group is really smarter than the other. Just look at America: the culture practically worships retardation, yet it is a center of learning and education worldwide, largely due to circumstance and the tiny proportion of people with brains making some good decisions and convincing the retards to go along with it.

>>48872 >Retardation tends to be a successful strategy. >Not just viable, but successful. You made a very sophisticated impression, and I believed you actually put a lot of thought into your post, until you posted this absolute smoothbrain-soykaf. If it was, humanity never would've advanced beyond the ape-phase, and instead kept banging rocks together and scream. The human race evolved towards extremely low bodily specialization, instead opting for development of mental capacity. Humanity has survived until this day by countering the problems that surround them, not by Adaptation, and that's why retards never had a chance until civilization made it possible to survive without being responsible and planning. So no, retardation is not a successful strategy, quite the contrary. >>48823 Letting humanity evolve towards the offloading of problems on big companies, science and government, is the biggest mistake in the history of humanity. Relying on synthetic medication, pills and vaccinations is giving away responsibility, and helping stupidity spread. Furthermore, the body is not supposed to take in synthetic medication in the amounts that are normal nowadays. I myself prefer staying home a few days and curing my illness the natural way, instead of popping pills or getting vaccinated.

>>48872 Regulations force tards into the correct path. There is no point in iq when you dont get to make any decisions and murrica is the best example starting early with their joke of playgrounds that removed any chance of fuarrrking up while the rest of the world has playgrounds were you can break a leg if you dont pay attention. Then school - they literally let illiterate kids pass and then you can get hired as a token diversity hire. Same for medicine - you dont let kletus make choices. You give him his mandatory vacc and checkups so he doesnt die.

>>48832 Somehow I feel like you got a bad cold and the doctors didn't give any help because "gotta keep the strongest alive" you would be on your knees begging for there to be no "natural selection". And also I don't believe many people are idiots. It's very tempting to see everyone as dumb, but that kind of reminds me of how liberals view trump supporters. Not that I'm either of those before some barking starts at me, but it's kinda like asking a blind man what colors are. They can't comprehend it so they call them stupid. Even too going into these sloppy evolutionary psychological theories about group think, them being racist because of low intelligence or even schizo theories about the ruskis doing mind control. Even though the same people voted for Obama few years back. Saying others are stupid is always a cope for not understanding others. Also, if you want to live in a smart society, you have to work for it. Don't expect it to happen in a world that rushes to build the ever more perfect skinner box. Because that's why the world looks like that. News is so schizo because if they talked like normal people there would be no emotions, no clicks from that. Constant bombardment with sex everywhere you go. Just turn on youtube, walk outside and you see everything having sexual undertones to stimulate. You have social media whose whole business model depends on making you angry and getting you to spend as much time as possible on it. Even if you don't use these things, you still going to feel it because others do. As a side note on what social media does to people, my parents in the last decade went from pretty normal people to thinking first that there's some giant plot about Muslims to invade Europe, and it goes so deep that muslims pretend to be nice to others to gain their trust and then backstab them, then the covid came and they thought it was the end days because they saw someone in China fall on street on facebook feed, then covid stopped existing because they knew no one who was sick, then someone they knew died so they were in hysteria again, then it again doesn't exist because they probably had a bad cold. Right now covid and the vaccine (yes, both) is man engineered to sterilize the people because there's too much old and weak people. Tell me that social media doesn't melt your brain more than drugs. Because even junkies are more coherent.

>>48885 >and that's why retards never had a chance until civilization made it possible to survive without being responsible and planning. And yet, somehow, Huns defeated the Romans despite not even having stirrup technology. They literally deformed themselves at birth because they thought it made themselves look more fierce.

>>48887 >And also I don't believe many people are idiots no, but enough are. Especially when you get people together in large groups, they tend to act very stupid.

>>48887 Idiot is just arbitrary classification. Take school for example. Getting 99% right on a test is 1% failure just as 60% is 40% failure. Its up to the observer to decide where he sets the bar for idiot but personally im with the asian mom and would classify everyone as defect for being unable to get 100% on objective tests like physics. (language you're excused since its based on teachers own subjective opinions which allows for the problem to lie with the teacher not you)

>>48889 While there are some who are, you more likely are to hear about the outcast than you are about your average joe. It kinda reminds me of the talk about trannies. Not that I'm saying they are idiots or taking sides, but in my whole life I only saw one, and heard about one being talked on the bus. When I turn on TV, internet or whatever, they seem almost as common as ants. And say what you want about groups, but I wish more people weren't afraid of them. Especially from places like these because groups can make change. A bunch of spergs installing privacy browsers to fight a system don't even register on the radar. >>48890 Yeah, that's what i was talking about not understanding people. What if the kid who studies physics has a chaotic household and can't study the subject well because he gets distracted. Maybe he's even in a place that hurt him he can't even study because of mental issues. And you know, I would even say the guy who said fuarrrk it and went to some party and fuarrrked few bitches had a point. I'm someone who's usually against hedonism, but I'm sure in 30 years he will be looking much happier at his youth then some nerd who made sure he had the best grades in the world.