Free will

>What are your views on free will and the creator? I am in no way an expert in theology, nor in philosophy. But lately I have been trying to get away from numbers and be more humanish. In this period I read the catholic bible, the satanic bible, a couple of works from Giordano Bruno, a view on Hegel's theology, and stuff like that. And something that has gotten my mind worked up is that there seems to be (in my eyes) a really big incongruency when it comes to the view of a creator and free will. I mean I here all this that one must obey God's, the universe's, whatever they want to call it, will and at the same time we are told that we are created with free will. What doesn't click for me is, how can we have free will if our life is pretty much prewritten and if we deviate from that we get punished? How can one have the benefit of choice if you make a choice that doesn't go with an unwritten rule and you get recoil damage from it? This all just seems to ambiguous to me. Any thoughts?

>>32849 >inb4 sorry for the bad grammar I'm still learning

Free Will was the plan of God. The fact is religious people thinks all is written in advance in ONE book. The fact is atheist people thinks nothing is written in advance (aka there is NO book). I reconciling them by saying there are an infinity of books god has written for you. You just jump from one to another each time you (have the feeling) to make a choice.

>>32849 freedom is the creed of the man without worth the higher you want to climb, the more chains you must wear (not the other way around, like the plebs think) you can only master thru extortion, you can only wage war without mercy, you can only advance thru connections (aka a cartel) and all the compromises that it entails; the chains are too heavy for the masses… and even at the base of the pyramid: you want money you must work, you want to be fit? you must excercise; work is correctly refered as: slavery it becomes clearer the moment you want a dream you lose all your freedom, and if you understand this world: the freedom of all others stop having value and, for the masses, weren't they prettier when they rejected fatness? weren’t their relationships longer when they had only one? weren't they healthier when they avoided diseases? chains may have been uncomfortable to them but they were also dragged with them, now they have non and now are also worth nothing weren't they happier when sin was punished? the thing is… sin is always punished

>>32849 non-theist here; i believe that there is no free will, but not in the way "God dictates your actions". I'm materialist, which means I believe only matter has power over the world. imo, if you know the exact state of the world at a time t and the exact physic laws that dictate the universe, you can know its state at time t+1. Of course we will never know the exact state of the world because it we cannot simulate without data loss a universe inside of itself, and maybe we'll never know its exact laws as well, but it's all just theory. Anyways, even though this excludes free will theorically, it doesn't mean we should forgive anyone who does anything because "it's not their fault" or something. I still believe that we have an ersatz of free will if we're considering a macroscopic scale. >>32851 big brain time >>32854 are you time-travelling from the inquisition or do we really have /p*l/tards on lainchan now?

>>32854 This is stupid. People got fat in burgerland precisely because they have no choice. The food is injected with hfcs and the regulations forbid even labeling in many aspects so that the people can't make a choice themselves. And there is further evidence it is not the people because you can see it happening with europeans going to burgerland for work and fattening up in less than a year and getting slim again when they go back home. The whole point of choice is the ability to choose what's best for you. A slave can only obey his master's whims and this is exactly what's going on.

Free will is the ability to make bad decisions, we can chose bad consequences, most of the time unknowingly, but even that is a choice. One might argue its all deterministic, but mechanism to chose bad puts in an interesting conoondrum. In the end it comes down to making wrong choices equals wrong consequences.

>>32857 Not all choices need to be worse. Any investment carries a risk and people will fail but only among those willing to take a risk will be also people who win and come out greater.

I believe free will is a real instrument in this world. However it is incredibly hard to obtain, and those who do, can't use it for long periods. What I understand from the Bibles teaching is that we all have free will. I don't know if this is true but ultimately it makes us guilty or feel shameful when we do the 'wrong' thing. Because we must have THOUGHT it through. In the western legal system, premeditated murder is usually punished more severely than manslaughter. Now if you have watched people for any length of time, they seem to be running on autopilot, completing the same task, cycling through the same habits, where is the free will here? Sometimes I hear little tidbits of conversation on the street and it might cause an idea to be generated in my head. Did I come up with the idea? Did the people I was eavesdropping implant it within me? Why did I hear that and not something else, why did my focus shift to that utterance at that moment? Free will existence is a very good question. I dont think the answer is either-or but something much more complex.

>>32856 This reminds me bad diet is linked to inflammation which is linked to depression. There were some studies that merely improved depression through diet & gut flora. Consider how many sad lains actually might have some issue due to nerd typical garbage diet. Admittedly i only heard it from a doctor and didn't read it myself. Might need o check the impact.

>>32849 People all follow the path of least resistance. Some people are just wired to trickle the other way.

>>32856 you said it yourself few choose whats best for them left to their own they are known today by the name: elite most of them know their masters: the bankers, the gov, mafias, a bigger fish those at the very top, those that have nowhere to fall back, those that truly are on their own have for master: the world

>>32856 >they lace our foooooooood Oh get the fuarrrk out with that bullshit, Americans will label you a health obsessed s*y drinking numale if you mention eating raw fruit without dipping it into 6 kinds of melted cheese. You eat like dumpsters.

>>32882 Europoors get only normal bread, burgistan gets sugary bread. Shit like that is what makes burgers bloatmax without trying. I think germany has competitive landwhale levels but i've been to the southern countries on vacation and you just dont see a single hamplanet.

I like to think that the universe and its events are "entirely" random, but depending on the amount of effort you are willing to put in you can change the odds, and that is your free will. However I think it requires a remarkable human being to be able to use this to a notable extent, and that most people go about their lives with very little planned impact on these odds - other than general things like going to school to get some qualification. That you can find an infinite amount of choices or actions humans make throughout the course of their lives, and that it is not really possible for humans to take control of every single one. I think the way most people structure for immediate decisions is having a set of acceptable outcomes with an acceptable effort requirement and unknowingly they then choose the actions that favor the set of acceptable outcomes. It becomes significantly more difficult when having to plan beyond one's immediate action due to difficulty predicting the future.

>>32882 Have you ever actually been called that or seen anyone else called that by an American for that reason? Or is that just something that you assume an American would say?

As I've pointed out in the other thread on the same topic, even if we disregard the notion kf determinism, we are bound by our upbringing, our physiqie, our mental configuration and state, our social and economical status, as well as our culture and society, family, past experiences, the list goes on. Our decisions are informed (or entirely defined) by so many factors that we ultimately just have the illusion of free will. What we have is choice and a certain mental state (informed by experience) which chooses one of several available options. The notion of free will is a convenient lie, an abstraction, because we do have the freedom of choice, but it is embedded in the fact that ourselves, the choosing entity, is but the outcome of a series of events and kept going by the momentum of the events of our lives. Consider a choice like quitting the drugz, a common setting for the mention of "free will". The option at any given point whether to use or not depends on our experiences with that drug and what we've made of it given how our brain processes the emotions we've had through it. If the level of discomfort exceeds the default response to the stimulus that normally results in use of substance, then there is a force at play that is already deviating our ongoing path towards a different choice, but that is always through the play of other events (having lost all, your family abandoning you, etc) which informs your need to reddress your default choices.