Lolicon self-analysis

For the sake of discussion, let's assume lolicon imagery doesn't hurt anyone; you're looking at lines on a page, and it's not going to translate in any way to irl abuse. I'm curious how you view yourself, how you view your interests, and how you view yourself and your interests as they relate to broader society. Some more specific example questions: >Despite lolicon being fictional and harmless to others, do you think there's anything wrong with being interested in loli material? Do you feel shame? >How would you defend yourself in someone in your personal life confronted you about your interests? >Do you believe there is an "excuse" for your interests, or have you accepted lolicon as a part of yourself that others (and maybe even you yourself) will never understand?

If you're exclusively sexually interested in children then the reason you're into lolicon is obvious, but I'm more interested in the people who aren't exclusively sexually attracted to children. There are a lot of reasons I can think of, but none of them quite capture it. Maybe I like it because it's edgy. To be a lolicon is to be part of one of the most universally hated groups on earth. With the taming of 4chan and the broader control of internet discourse by a small number of corporations, lolicon is the ultimate expression of rebellion and a de-facto symbol of freedom of expression. If I fantasize about loli stuff, I don't self-insert. In other-words, there's no place in my fantasy for myself as I exists now. Rather, I want to BE the girl if anything. Since a little girl is the antithesis of the roles and responsibilities of adulthood. Maybe lolicon is a form of escape. Maybe I'm just emotionally stunted and unable to connect with other adults. Maybe I just want to return to the simplicity of childhood. Maybe I'm just not a prude and can appreciate the eroticism of lolis just as I can with adults. Whatever the reason, I can't think of a way to justify it. They all seem like personal hangups. None of them are admirable reaons, and I doubt any of them would convince a non-lolicon that I'm not the devil. I'm curious if any other lolicons are in this psychological struggle?

I see lolicon as the antidote to child abuse. It offers a release for those who are into that. I'm more into pubescent models, but it's really all the same. I don't feel shame because there's no harm. I view myself as perverse, for certain, but generally I forgive myself for taking a look here and there. Lolicon is a great way for me to get the feeling out without causing harm. Being interested in loli material is iffy. It isn't that it is bad in and of itself, but rather what the interest implies. If you're after children, it's bad news. If you're getting a release in order ot not offend, that's good.

I really wish I was a cute loli

>>29932 >do you think there's anything wrong with being interested in loli material? Not really, it's just art. I think any kind of guilt or self-hate (which does sometimes occur with this stuff at least for me) is probably just my mind trying to rationalize how different I am from my peers. As the lolicon above me said, being a lolicon is to be universally hated and while I still don't think it's wrong, I can't help feeling the pain of that kind of isolation. >How would you defend yourself I think my friends are all convinced that I'm a creep (which is fair enough all things considered) so the only real defence is to try my best to have it not come up or, alternatively, to make it so ubiquitous among some of my more Laissez-faire friends to point where they just don't question it. I can see myself taking on the creepy uncle role but I don't know what else to do at this point. Imagining, I was on the street and someone saw me reading ponsuke on my phone or something (which i don't really do, but what if) and demanded an explanation then I think the most compelling argument would be to equate lolicon with violent video games. The old crack-pot arguments for why violent video games cause violence or why black sabbath are bad for the soul are - in my experience - not too far off from what people say about lolis. It might not be enough to convince a puritan but, if you're talking to the kind of person who takes freedom of speech very seriously or anything like that then it may work. >Do you believe there is an "excuse" for your interests, or have you accepted lolicon as a part of yourself that others (and maybe even you yourself) will never understand? I haven't figured out yet whether or not I can be considered an actual pedo. I have noticed that I'm interested in younger and cuter girls than my friends but that goes down to like 15 maaaaaybe 14 if they're peculiarly curvy: certainly not as young as the lolis i like. The reason i bring up actual girls is because I heard somewhere that pedos have a different brain makeup to regular people and so, if i am a pedo but I just haven't fully awoken or something then I would cite the apparent weirdness of my brain. Otherwise, I think it's natural for regular people to value cuteness and smallness in women and for many (me included) that's a way of tapping into that in a way that feels more legitimate i guess; like imagine watching porn with a woman in her 30s pretending to be a cute schoolgirl or something. That's just dumb. If you have loli porn of that same subject it taps into that primal soykaf much harder than otherwise. Whatever the answer is, I'm not going to act like I know. There's probably many types of people who consume loli porn for many different reasons at many different times. If you were to ask these questions tomorrow, I'd probably have a different answer so yeah, I like to ramble but at the end of the day I have no fuarrrking clue

I was afraid this was going to degenerate into "hurr durr they're actually 500 years old" or "be gone pedo," so thank you for your insightful responses, Lainanons. >>29934 It sounds like you see a more direct connection between loli and 3D (as opposed to loli being a more abstract concept relating to self-image). My question, then, is are you at peace with it? Do you think it's simply a matter of what you're hardwired to be attracted to? Something that's inevitably your cross to bear which can never be helped? >>29936 Are you me? >I haven't figured out yet whether or not I can be considered an actual pedo I wondered that for a long, long time. I finally decided that I'm not based on the strict definition of a pedo as being "exclusively attracted to pre-pubescent children." Sexually, I'm attracted to a normal range of ages and body-types, but emotionally I'm attracted to the idea of loli. Purity, simplicity, energy. Idk, it's hard to sum up in a few words, especially when I'm not even clear on what it means to me. >I think my friends are all convinced that I'm a creep I think some of my long time friends probably know, but it's such an uncomfortable topic for people it doesn't get brought up, which is almost worse, but oh well. You would probably have to run into an aggressive sjw or make a really big blunder to actually get called out. >I think any kind of guilt or self-hate (which does sometimes occur with this stuff at least for me) is probably just my mind trying to rationalize how different I am from my peers. Like I said earlier that was part of the appeal for me at first; feeling rationally superior to other people for not being outraged at simple cartoons. However, the deeper down the rabbit hole I go, the less justifiable it seems. I'm a big fan of freedom of expression, and I like lolicon material as a battleground for that, but as far as lolicon in and of itself, is there any justifiable reason to like it? I don't think so, which is why I can't ever bring it up. It's hard to have a whole partition of my life I can't share with anyone. >Whatever the answer is, I'm not going to act like I know. There's probably many types of people who consume loli porn for many different reasons at many different times. If you were to ask these questions tomorrow, I'd probably have a different answer so yeah, I like to ramble but at the end of the day I have no fuarrrking clue yep

It's because of the emotional dynamic and dominance. The way 109 draws the eyez...

>>29932 >Despite lolicon being fictional and harmless to others, do you think there's anything wrong with being interested in loli material? Do you feel shame? YES. Do I feel ashamed? NO because I'm not into lolis. >How would you defend yourself in someone in your personal life confronted you about your interests? I would feel really ashamed. But I can understand as long as they are really fuarrrked up fetishes in the mind of people. They exists and I deal with it. I have my moral values and I understand each as an individual as his own. Just don't hurt kids irl and I'm ok with you.

>>29953 If lolicon is harmless fiction then what's wrong with it? >>29935 This makes me wonder, to what degree are the lolis not even the focus of lolicon porn. Like most porn is defined by an objectification and sexualisation of a person or something like that - for example, people like big tits in their porn cos they see big tits as sexy objects to play around with right. Your identification with the lolis makes me think that there's a different dynamic at play - at least with you.

>>29978 >If lolicon is harmless fiction then what's wrong with it? Have you read my post or are you baiting Lainon?

>>29982 I'm >>29953

>>29982 I read your post and now I'm curious about how you think. Did I miss something? you mentioned moral values and wanting people to not hurt kids. I guess I'd like you to expand on the former and we can dismiss the latter since that's already covered by the question. Also yeah if I misunderstood your post please do correct me. I don't want to start fights on a topic like this which I care about.

>>29985 To be simple: I don't care if people masturbate to lolis (fictional character), play with their soykaf, yifff or go BME Pain Olympics. I don't like it because my moral values made me not linking it. And I'm pretty comfy this way. I would feel ashamed if my dark fantasies/weird fetishes (yes I have some) went know by my relatives. Don't hurt kids irl and you can do/like whatever you want. Don't spill you fetishes at the face of the world without expecting people to found them gross. In general even normal person sexuality is better kept hidden than shown to the world. I hate exhibitionists.

For the record I don't care* about anyone's fetish as long as nobody is hurt or re-victimized. I do however not like that I can't have a place like lainchan without paedos and nazis coming here to try and normalize their fetishes with "friendly debates" * Also you don't get to babysit my kids and if you're a school teacher I'm gonna fuarrrking complain if you have some weird collection of anime.

>>29993 you're projecting. This isn't a debate and no one's trying to change minds; The thread is lolicon self-analysis not lets debate the Loli question. plus I doubt there's many lolicons on lainchan since it only took seven posts before a non lolicon chimed in. also you didn't answer my "what's wrong with it" question from before but, I've realized the reason why is that the answer would just be 'it's icky' I was expecting you to make an arguement for why being a lolicon is harmful or has any kind of negative impact. That is why I pressed you to explain but it's clear you can't explain cos 'I don't like it' is the best you got.

>>29994 lolicon is degenerate filth for people who wish they could offend. You're just pretending that this is all introspective when it's clear you're trying to normalize a perverse and harmful passtime. Studies have shown that when MAPs are shown cartoon porn, their desire to offend increases. Stop normalizing disgusting degeneracy on lainchan

>>29996 >Studies have shown that when MAPs are shown cartoon porn, their desire to offend increases. Not him, but you should cite if you talk about studies. I'm also interested, so if you have anything, you should share.

>>29996 >for people who wish they could offend. you're obviously offended and it's pretty funny. >You're just pretending that this is all introspective Before you joined the thread was literally textbook introspection, just people going over how they think and feel. if you think simply explaining what's going on is 'normalizing' then maybe the thing being explained is normal. >you're trying to normalize a perverse and harmful passtime Yeah just no. really dumb take. also I've never considered myself a MAP or associated with that term so get whoever you think you're fighting out of your head. and yeah share the studies plz

All this low quality bait is not helpful and probably just trying to get the thread shutdown. >>29996 If you're operating under the assumption that lolicon media indirectly harms children then I understand why you're upset. It's very difficult to find good evidence one way or the other, but as >>29994 pointed out, this isn't a debate thread. >>29993 >I do however not like that I can't have a place like lainchan without paedos and nazis coming here to try and normalize their fetishes with "friendly debates" I get it. If there were threads for a specific fetish I didn't care for on the front page every other day I'd be upset too. Idk what to tell you mang. Comes with the territory. Consider that aggressively censoring discussions like this could have the unintended consequence of pushing the participants towards darkweb sites where there's a higher chance of radicalization and perhaps real offense. I think most of you are conflating this thread with >>>/hum/29727 and others like it. I'm not him. I get that you guys are sick of the pedo-normalization soykaf, but this isn't it. I specifically crafted this thread with a narrowly focused topic to avoid it degenerating into senseless flaming. If you have something to say please try to think critically before you chime in I truly believe there is more to the concept of lolicon than simply "ooga-booga nekkid children," and that's what I'm trying to discuss here. I've attached an interesting and very well cited essay by Patrick Galbraith at the University of Tokyo which makes a strong case for the concept of loli being something which far transends what it literally represents.

My memory isn't as good but I remember reading that about 80% of abuse happens with relatives. If someone was into 'that' it's probably fine but if there is a child anywhere near and accessible for such person and if that person don't even have any prospect partner then you should be very wary and even more if you're/they're relatives. I've seen such person irl and they're creepy and they seem too clingy to children and trying to impress like some clown. "Funny uncle" they said. Wait until the child start 'peeing' the bed again. Usually the first signs of abuse. They probably think their browsing habits are private when I can spawn a #get ip conntrack over the router and extrapolate their creepy udp addresses. >>29978 Fiction is harmless, sure but is the person harmless? At the moment a very fragile yes? Nah, people aren't as white as an angel. It's only a matter of tolerance to temptation, kinda like that boring marshmallow experiment. >>29933 >be the girl A lot of offenders claimed the same. Some convinced the judge and went to mental institutions.

From the above PDF >Recall Kinsella’s suggestion that lolicon be understood as men performing the shōjo to come to terms with an unstable gender identity (Kinsella 2006: 81-83). If being a man ceases to promise power, potency and pleasure, it is no longer the privileged subject position. Akagi explains that lolicon is a form of self-expression for those oppressed by the principles of masculine competitive society (Akagi 1993: 232). 32 Lolicon is a rejection of the need to establish oneself as masculine and an identification with the “kindness and love” of the shōjo (Akagi 1993: 233). This interpretation reverses the standard understanding of lolicon as an expression of masculinity to one of femininity. This is, of course, not the only way to approach the wide range of lolicon images, but it certainly highlights the complexity of “pornographic content” and its uses. I've never questioned my sexuality or gender, but this paragraph makes sense to me. Speaking as an American, the chivalry of the 20th century is dead. Being a traditional man's man is now a distasteful stereotype that's equated with misogyny. If you tried to pick up a woman like any protagonist in any film from the 90's you'd be shamed out of existence. I legit considered myself an alpha growing up, but after hearing over and over that everything that makes you a one is derived from misogyny at some level or another, I think eventually I just gave up. If I can't embrace my masculine side, I guess I'll embrace my shōjo side, or something like that.

>>30019 That being said, I wouldn't literally want to turn into a woman. I'm terrified of growing older (I think that might have to do with a feeling of having squandered my youth), and a woman's value is based on youth and beauty to a much greater degree than a man's so I'd be fuarrrked. I also wouldn't want to turn into a irl little girl since being a kid is confusing, emotional, parents suck, etc... Basically, what I want doesn't have a real life equivalent. The essay covers the idea that Otaku don't equate fiction with realty. In fact, that they approach content as “an utterly imagined space with no correspondent in the everyday world, a space of perfect fictionality...deliberately separated from everyday life”

>>29993 >I do however not like that I can't have a place like lainchan without paedos and nazis coming here to try and normalize their fetishes with "friendly debates" Maybe you should left the internets so... Or [obligatory] came back to reddit... If you don't want to participate on such thread, it's your right. I'm not op and not advocating for degeneracy. "I do however not like that I can't have a place like lainchan without commies/marxists coming here to try and normalize their fetishes with "friendly debates". What your point on this?

>>30020 >That being said, I wouldn't literally want to turn into a woman. I'm terrified of growing older (I think that might have to do with a feeling of having squandered my youth), and a woman's value is based on youth and beauty to a much greater degree than a man's so I'd be fuarrrked. You have to consider altering your meat will make olding even more difficult. Work on your mental inner little girl.

I only wish porn were separate from non porn People at this point have lost their mind and insist there's no real boundary between porn and things like artistic nudity but it's obvious when artwork means nothing and it's just there for people to jack off. Porn should stay on porn sites, just do whatever the fuarrrk you want and maybe discuss what should be allowed afterwards, but for the time being all I ask for is that you keep it on porn sites, why is it so hard to understand? Why do you need porn everywhere? Of course all the degenerates here will say I am wrong and we absolutely need their fetish porn literally everywhere. I can't accept how casual the mentioning of porn has become, someone names his favorite "artist" with no other detail, you look him up, it's anime porn. I hate this so much. This isn't art, it's porn, it doesn't enrich my life and actually makes me feel worse. Most of the art I see today makes me feel worse, it does the opposite of what art should do. I really hate you all.

>>30022 Yeah, no soykaf, I'm not a tranny. I'm just saying even if I could magically wake up one day and be a 3d woman I still wouldn't. >>30024 >I only wish porn were separate from non porn Huh, that's funny since you're the one who's conflating loli with porn. Besides are you seriously saying I should go to gelbooru to have a genuine conversation? >Of course all the degenerates here will say I am wrong and we absolutely need their fetish porn literally everywhere. I'm trying to have a thoughtful and introspective discussion. We're not describing our ideal bodies in graphic detail. I don't get it. The things you're accusing this thread of aren't even happening.

>>29994 It is a debate to change minds. I constantly see paedos going into free speech zones to have this same discussion. It's been had, over and over. Like I said I don't care what you do as long as nobody is getting hurt. Go pass around drawings of people who don't exist. Fine. I don't think you deserve prison for it. It's obvious to the rest of us what purpose these conversations serve. The internet is full of places for MAPs to circle jerk with each other and I've heard them flat out say they're on a campaign to normalize their behavior with these conversations.

>>30032 Honestly this thread doesn't seem like a circle jerk to me. I'm not particularly invested in either side of the "debate" so I found the first few responses about the psychology of this condition to be pretty interesting. Obviously you have to take direct testimony like that with some skepticism because it relies on the introspective ability of the speaker but I take it we're all clever enough to work that much out. I get that you're trying to do the whole "don't give the bad guys any platform to spread their cancer" thing, and I even agree with that principle in certain contexts, but frankly lainchan isn't much of a platform. We can hold ourselves to a high standard and discuss taboo, evil, disgusting, or just ridiculous ideas without falling into the trap of framing it as a "debate" between proponents and critics. At least I like to think we can do that much at least, otherwise whats the point? We are all on the same side: we see a phenomenon and are seeking to understand it together.

>>30038 >I get that you're trying to do the whole "don't give the bad guys any platform to spread their cancer" thing, and I even agree with that principle in certain contexts, but frankly lainchan isn't much of a platform. This is a good point. Lainchan is unlikely to become some soapbox because of it's size and it's unlikely to become some sort of pedo hub because porn is generally bannable. I'm probably bitter over the places that I've seen overrun or the places I avoid because every now and again someone drops literal CP and then I'm worried that the soykaf is crammed into some inaccessible crevice of my SSD.

>>30016 >Fiction resembles fiction, or follows its own logic, and captures a sense of autonomous reality. A ready example is the large eyes of manga and anime characters, which do not necessarily correspond to a human face. There is no such face in the natural world, but it adheres to the distinct reality of manga and anime Thanks a lot for sharing that essay. I've always been interested in the history of the loli scene in japan and while this didn't really explain the transition from bishojo type girls (who as a I understand it were usually around 16 like Clarisse) to the current trend of characters being out and out children - I wonder if there was any significant event that brought about this change or if it's just an example of the younger generation being more extreme. of course there was the Miyazaki Tsutomu stuff that pushed specifically the word 'lolicon' underground but I'm curious whether or not the character would have gotten younger anyways. I'm starting to ramble. It seems like this thread is dying so I just wanted to say thanks for this.

>>30050 Wow, I can't believe somebody actually read that. Glad you could get something out of it. I think the paper soooort of addresses that on page 3: "Durham traces this primarily to the drive to cultivate consumers as early as possible, which erodes boundaries between children and adults: Marketers call this ‘age compression,’ or ‘KGOY’ – ‘Kids Getting Older Younger’ – and this marketing construct is blurring the line between adults and children, especially with regard to sexuality. ... Increasingly, very young girls are becoming involved in the sphere of fashion, images, and activities that encourage them to flirt with a decidedly grown-up eroticism and sexuality." The way it's put there, it sounds like it's an inevitable phenomenon of capitalist consumer society. The "Kids Getting Older Younger" phenomena definitely rings true (think Dance Moms and soykaf like that), so maybe the increasingly younger trend of lolicon has just been reflecting (or paralleling) reality.

they're drawings

>>29943 Seeing as how furries(and actual child predators, of course) are some of the biggest whiners about lolicon and anime in general, I think it serves more as a justification in itself than anything else. "Hey, look at this guy!" It's just a diversion.

>>30065 Ceci n'est pas une loli

>>30016 That's actually a really nice read.

>>29933 I've a pretty varied collection, including loli and a lot of hebe, but mostly adult stuff encompassing just about every meme fetish under the sun. It's safe to say I'm not exclusively attracted to anything. I'd even go so far as to say I'm not attracted to actual children at all, and I prefer hebe(2d) strongly over loli. A lot of my loli stuff is very heavily abstracted, stylized stuff like what Atahuta draws. But some isn't. I can relate to what you're saying. I do a lot of perspective hopping. Victim, perp, the man, the girl, or voyeurism. Sometimes I'm not present at all, like in Atahuta's works, or Rinjuu Circus' Sasha, and I just watch them lose themselves in the act. Most of my stuff features a pretty messed up power dynamic. That's the common thread. Domination, being dominated, humiliation, exhibitionism, sex icon caricatures, dependency, voyeurism, and so on. I doesn't matter which side(if any) I envision myself on, but they're all one-sided affairs. There is one person holding the reins, period. It's a trend, not an absolute. Obviously, if you're as talented as Ikuhana Niiro, then personal taste doesn't matter, and you can feed even me a healthy relationship. But there's a definite trend. One of my absolute favourite artists is Takamichi(see pic), the guy who does all the LO covers, and most of his stuff isn't even erotic, they're just displays of youthful innocence and playfulness. Though I don't find most of them fappable, there are many that are, and that youthfulness is a major draw for me. I also have a folder with a couple thousand images of adolescent love, and other sickly sweet stuff, that physically hurts me to look at, so I'm sure a shrink would have a field day with me. My point is that, to me, it's very abstracted. It's the situation, the dynamic, their properties more than their looks, that draw me to loli art. Even their looks, though Rustle is fine too, is usually notably more stylized and abstracted than the rest of the erotic art I've hoarded over the years. Hebe, on the other hand, has very appealing forms and I pray for Range's blessing every day.

Anybody beside me have a loli gf?

👁️

>>30093 imagine having a gf

>>30070 What the hell, it didn't even have bodily contours. Now people are going to think I posted something lewd.

I hope my post adds something to the thread despite it not being self-analysis. Of course there's nothing wrong with fictional depictions of anything on an ethical level in a vacuum. The problem is that the normalization of relationships or sexual affairs with minors sets a precedence for a societal catastrophe, and therefore such fetishes should remain taboo. Because even though lolicon may not necessarily correlate with child abuse statistics directly, it would indirectly if it achieved the status of "normal" or "morally acceptable". Such things happen with exposure over time and affect whole societies. As for me, I wouldn't despise anyone for their sexual preferences as long as they are not hurting other people or encouraging it. That's just me. though. It should be noted that people will be instinctively against lolicon because of their moral upbringing, nothing to be done about it and it's probably for the best. If you feel alone as a lolicon, know that everyone out there has their own dark secrets and past misdeeds that they won't share with anyone else ever until they are in their deathbed. It's not uncommon, don't feel alone.

>>30128 "pedophile" is not a sexuality. nice apologetics.

>>30131 lmao, how could it not be a sexuality? Just because it's a bad thing doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That's the strangest take I've heard all day. >>30128 >The problem is that the normalization of relationships or sexual affairs with minors sets a precedence for a societal catastrophe I can see why you'd think that, but you've gotta realize this isn't a new phenomena. Lolicon has been popular and more or less legal in Japan since like the '80's and they're not raping left and right. That's two generations that have grown up with easy access to cartoon child porn and I don't think anyone would argue it's a "societal catastrophe" over there.

>>30138 Japan is actually facing a social catastrophe in the form of an aging society and shrinking population due to low births, which is bound to hit them pretty hard. What if this "easy access to cartoon cheese pizza" and the expansion of lolicon has played a role (albeit minor) on it? I don't think there has been serious research on this.

>>30142 Hahaha, that would actually be really funny if Japan's declining birthrate was caused by like 30% of the population specifically choosing to read ero-manga instead of getting married. America and Europe are flushed with porn and declining birthrate isn't a problem. I doubt lolicon manga was what tipped the scales for the Japs.

>>30142 I think that would be a problem with porn in general, not specifically loli >>30145 >America and Europe are flushed with porn and declining birthrate isn't a problem It kind of is though. Almost all of the first world has had drastically declining birth rates that are sitting on the edge of sub-replacement. Not as bad as Japan but still pretty bad. Personally I don't think porn is causing this, I think they are both a symptom of the same underlying things. After all, it makes sense that if you aren't getting married and having kids you might be more inclined to look at porn.

>>30138 Being attracted to children isn't a valid sexuality. They're predatory, and involve exploitation. That isn't a sexuality, that's being a predator.

>>30138 I don't think it should be illegal (in digital form at least), just taboo. I don't know about the US, but here where I live, you can't be arrested for possession of lolicon, however it is enough evidence to warrant an investigation for CP in your HD if someone reports you to the police. Not everything needs to be about the legislation. The law is a reflection of its society, and the law should only act when societal pressure isn't enough. Therefore, I pray that loli content keeps its bad rep forever. >>30169 Let's not derail the thread over semantics and tangentially related topics.

>>30169 Are you ever stupid. Sexuality is sexual attraction. If you're attracted to children, it's because that's your sexuality. >>30170 Puberty should be the agé of consent. That's the only thing that makes sense. Everything else, including lolicon, should derive from that. >>30170