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Has anyone else ever tried to distance themselves from mirrors and clocks? These are devices which are recent inventions that alienate oneself from experience.

define recent

Mirrors are just recent expression of long known characteristic of reflection we used when we were next lakes or sea, or anything more reflective. We used the mirror as we used big rocks as tools as cavemen. Clocks are just another way we express something we found out long time ago. Time is really valuable when you measure it. If you know when the next winter is coming then you can prepare for it and plan your future so you don't get hungry or cold during winter. Moreover cavemen really did look up in the sky to know relatively how much of sun they had.

>reflections didnt exist before mirrors

>>13975 Looking at the sun is still done and rather accurate when the question is merely how many hours til night have i left? You use your hand to estimate the distance of the sun to the horizon. 1hand=1hour, fingers =break down hour to smaller segments. It's even more useful than a clock when you don't know at which hour the sun sets. t.hiker That aside we also have a inner clock. And it can be rather accurate. i.e. I don't need any tools to wake up perfect at 7am on my own.

Well my laptop and phone both have clocks and on certain websites (this one), the dark theme is effectively a mirror in the empty places. There is no easy escape. (That's what the title of the TV series refers to by the way, looking at our own reflection when the screen is turned off).

you dont mention computers to be frank they are much more powerful at alienating

I like clocks but i hate mirrors. But not because some philosophical idea, but simply because sometimes i'm psychotic and see entities in the mirror behind me and i'm very afraid of them.

>>13975 Lakes and rivers and distorted and inexact and fixed to moments. Mirrors are perfect and everpresent. Clocks are more than just expressing time, clocks are time made into a form of sheduling. It's one thing to watch the sun, it's another thing to watch the exact numbers on a clock, an invention made for more efficient wageslavery.

>>14003 >Mirrors are perfect and everpresent >perfect Actually all mirrors have a greenish tint due to way of the manufacturing process >everpresent As long as you think that reflection in lake by the cavemen wasn't lasting or present in the moment that they are looking at it. Presence of some property is just a transient characteristic that you don't need to be aware of all the time. Not to mention that mirrors lose that property when destroyed. My point is that your perception vastly influences the characteristics of an object. >Clocks are more than just expressing time, clocks are time made into a form of sheduling We scheduled our time differently in the past, but to imply that clocks push us into it is absurd. They simply helped us to make that scheduling more concise. >It's one thing to watch the sun, it's another thing to watch the exact numbers on a clock, an invention made for more efficient wageslavery. Exactly. You associate it with pressure of modern lifestyle. Your perception shapes your opinion of it. In the past the cavemen would worship the invention of clocks due to sheer pressure of having to think about harsh weather of future or to schedule their days accordingly. That is the main reason why we invented clocks as species, to help us, not to make us anxious. You see, if we were to talk about underlying issues you and OP have (I think you're the same person, no?) we would get to the problem that is partly created by modern life and pressures of such life and partly by your own inadequacies to live in such a world. To combat that you just need to change your perception of things, not see clocks and mirrors as forms of oppression but as tools that can be used for both good and evil. It is our use that makes them either way. They're totally ambiguous in the ways that they can be used, which is I think part of the anxious process, but to eliminate that you just need to be honest with yourself and you need to work on your self esteem a bit.

I am astonished by all the low IQ replies in this thread that fail to appreciate the significance of getting precise timestamps and mirror images shoved into your face, while photos and live streams depicting you are made and remain available indefinitely. Situational access to roughly assessing time with the sun or getting an idea of how you look like in a lake is nothing like the (almost mandatory) externalized snapshots of experience everyone is swimming in right now. Human minds are not used to having external access to the past, they are used to dreaming or remembering at best. Humans have been living in the here and now for millions of years, but now face powerful tools that can reliably bend the "now" into something else. And no, nobody cares if you're so /cyb/ that nobody ever takes photos of you; or if you're a DIY hippie living in the forest without clocks, mirrors or electricity - it just means you're not the topic of the thread, and your example is irrelevant.

>>14009 >human minds are not used to having external access to the past, they are used to dreaming or remembering at best. are you telling me that after all that time we have written documents and drawings, our brains couldn't get used to be able to reach for external sources of history? are you OP by any chance?

>>14014 Not OP >after all that time It's a relatively short time, supposedly little neurological adaptation happened since these are around. Also let's not put external verbal sources of history (your dad or shaman tells you stuff) - which basically means you just imagine it with some guidelines - under the same category as seeing a precise, repeatable external visual capture of those events. It was physically impossible for any living creature to see itself run, from a camera angle that shows them from behind. It was physically impossible to see a realistic depiction of yourself from 10 years ago before high enough quality, well colored photos appeared. You can imagine how it looked like when a fellow villager pulled your tooth out - it's a totally different experience than seeing 4K footage from several angles as a dentist does the operation today. Back then, you could only perceive what you and your actions looked like by imagination. Today you have both your imagination and factual footage, a distinction has to be upheld by your mind, and each of them demand different treatment.

>>14015 Just joined the thread, this is interesting. I'm just wondering, do you believe this transition to occur gradually over time? Consider how communication over the last 500 years has progressively grown more accessible to the everyday person. This would make information progressively less transitory, "hardening" it over time. Its merely that we have grown to a level of precision that we know the exact millisecond in time many events happened. To me, I think this phenomenon demonstrates that humanity is becoming more precise with its communication at the cost of perceiving the world in a new, uncharted way. Is it possible for humanity to adapt? We'll see... but I think it will have profound consequences either way.

>>13975 Its possible to live without a clock if you spend a good amount of time in the sun. Your natural body clock tends to be rather accurate, down to a standard deviation of around 10 seconds. This is just anecdotal though, maybe I just have a very accurate internal clock. >>13973 funny you should say that, the only mirror i know of that distances from experience and a lived life is the black mirror of the LCD. Social media and technology dehumanizes us.

>>14100 can confirm: your body clock syncs up very closely to the sun in the absence of artificial light.

>mirrors and clocks ... alienate oneself from experience. Death is the only escape experience. It may be that even death won't let you escape experience. Perhaps you meant that mirrors and clocks alienate oneself from reality. Mirrors don't alienate anyone from anything, they merely reflect what they face. Clocks don't alienate anyone from anything, they merely, at some moments, increase some value. It may be that some people alienate themself from reality, and that clocks, mirrors may make it less difficult to do so. That clocks, mirrors may make it less difficult to alienate oneself from something is likely merely because clocks, mirrors are tools. The purpose of tools is that they make things easier. I see no reason, and good reason contrariwise, that these inanimates alienate anyone from anything. That they may be used as tools of alienation, according to me, remains dubious. >Clocks are more than just expressing time No, clocks are not even expressing time, they are merely tools which we use to track time >now face powerful tools that can reliably bend the "now" into something else the now is always only the now. Whenever you are, you are the now that is relative to when you are. the now can't become something other than the now. However, the past (also the future) is a fiction each person creates for himself Regardless of what data used in iti's creation, those data are merely a projection from his reality to his existence, wherefrom he can imagine, perhaps with some guidelines. Even today, you can only know what you and your actions looked like by imagination, because there is always a step from the data to the interpretation of those data, and it's the interpretation that we care about. What we have are various sorts of fictions, and of the 'nonfiction' sorts, there are various levels of accuracy, that is to say, various likelihoods that the predictions made from that 'nonfiction' fiction are true. We ought to account for the probability of a prediciion when we are making decisions to which the prediction pertains. >we have grown to a level of precision that we know the exact millisecond in time many events happened. This phenomenon does demonstrate that humanity is becoming more precise with its communication, with the benefit of perceiving the world in a new, encharted way. >Your natural body clock tends to be rather accurate, down to a standard deviation of around 10 seconds. I wonder how one measures that without a clock? Black Mirror is a reference to black mirrors, where, instead being backed by 'smart' white, it's backed by black, causing the reflection to be obfuscate. That some computer monitor, when it's pixels are off, is a black mirror, is an additional layer to the black mirror metaphor: Unperused technology bites! >nobody cares if you're so /cyb/ that nobody ever takes photos of you is a strong statement. How, exactly, do you know that there does not exist a person who cares whether a specified person is so /sec/ that nobody has ever taken photographs of him? So, the OP pic: (Ugh) Let's get over this: First, some definitions. Order is a transitive (usually, also, reflexive, antisymmetric) relation (cf. <https://proofwiki.org/wiki/Definition:Ordering>). Chaos is the property (of a dynamical system) that a dynamical system is defined only by a rule regarding how to get the next state from the last state (cf. <http://www.chaos-math.org/>). On the left we see a (part of a) chaotic system: a coniferous-arboreal branch, labelled "Order". There is a natrual order. On the right, what seems to be the same coniferous-arboreal branch, but disassembled, partitioned into needles and branch arms, each quotient set, by a total order, arranged, labelled "Chaos". Notice the lack of chaos. Especially notice the cosmos. Notice, also, that the definitions of order and chaos have little to do with each other, which implies that considering them opposites (as their apposition seems to attempt to suggest) is non-trivial, so you need to furnish some proof of their opposition. So I'm not sure how to construe the OP pic. Maybe it's yet another postmodern meme (YAPMM).