Imageboard culture is dead

The imma fire mah laz0r, zalgo, girugamesh days are over and it's about time we stop trying to bring 2007 back. This culture has been dominated by political propaganda of the worst kind. Lazy, uninformed, egoistic, pretentious "my e-dick is bigger than yours" type of propaganda. Any imageboard that doesn't have heavy moderation turns into the same template created by pol eventually, and the ones who do becomes kind of dead, like us. Our very own feminism thread greatly exemplifies this problem, there can be no political discussion outside the "channer" box, because this stereotype is limited to edgy rationalism, it's "rationalism as long as i feel superior and can dream of ayn rand at night". And even if this politicization worked, even if it was something real and truly rational and capable of analyzing issues, imageboard culture would be equally dead, because the focus would still be on political discussion, not in a sense of belonging after a miserable day at work, which was at the center of previous iterations of our culture. How do we move from this, Lain? We all want a place to call home, remember the anon comics? That exemplified a certain sense of belonging, that we who have nothing else could at the very least have this place. Do we even want to move on from this, is building a new home an option at all? By "we" i mean literally we, people who come here and are reading this thread, of course i'm not trying to speak for the entire community.

I tried to do surgery in this post and failed now the sentence structure is fuarrrked up. I'm too drunk to wait for the delay between posting the same thing twice, just make an effort to understand what i mean, ain't rocket science.

the problem is normal users think redditor = channer + ego and argument points does that make the old users and goons and lainons the equivalent yuppies of this cultural scene? OPs picture is an overly used meme to call about the inherent whimsy slowly developing into soul crushing irony which is a sentiment of normal user cultural normalization. just as video games and comics are experiencing a new normalized status in culture which warps the original scene so too does the idea of what normal users see as imageboard culture.

>>13092 you don't get to this point by taking this layer seriously you get to the point of having to preserve the spirit of whimsical or nihilistic discussion as well as creation that drives what an imageboard community actually is don't exit the layer just because the soykaf has been declared stale

>>13093 > OPs picture is an overly used meme to call about the inherent whimsy slowly developing into soul crushing irony which is a sentiment of normal user cultural normalization. just as video games and comics are experiencing a new normalized status in culture which warps the original scene so too does the idea of what normal users see as imageboard culture. That's what i was trying to say though. The current imageboard zeitgeist necessarily implies in uninformed political soykaffest. It's like hacker culture turning into "Information Security" before your eyes and you can do nothing about it, either join the lizards shake hands and wear a tie or work as a normal developer and forget about your hacker culture days. Or, in the case of lain chan, join a small hacker group and accept that a larger group is impossible in the current landscape. This is the exact situation we're in, attempt a shift in priorities or let the lizards take over.

>>13096 fuarrrk SAKE YOU GET THE IDEA

>>13094 >you get to the point of having to preserve the spirit of whimsical or nihilistic discussion as well as creation that drives what an imageboard community actually is That made sense a decade ago when most of the community was aware of what the community was and the difference between angry self expression and ideological statements. brewing soykaf was brewing soykaf, as new members came in who weren't in on the culture, more and more people interpreted jokes as statements. We're at a point where the layer of abstraction IS reality, it's no longer an abstraction and we can no longer point and laugh at everyone who isn't in on our zeitgeist, because our zeitgeist is completely dead. Nobody fuarrrking goes on big imageboards anymore, fuarrrk are you gonna do, argue with dimwits all day and discuss the current cultural thing that is happening as if we were on twitter? Talk about fuarrrking jojo and whatever new disney movie came out? Who the fuarrrk gives a soykaf about that? The layer is dead, Lain.

I'd say a big issue is stagnation because of a lack of legitimate OC coming from chan's. Most stuff is just an obvious spin of something existing and not really clever, funny or creative. Maybe OC threads could help here? Hard to say how it'd go, but that doesn't deal with the issue of politics, edginess, people using canned responses, etc. You could argue that with a unique board culture that stuff would be less prone to happen but again it's hard to say. Again best thing I can think of is promoting some OC threads on the appropriate board(s).

I think the lack of a culture is what made the initial environment. There were no rules because everyone was new. Now there are implied rules stemming from repeated patterns. People might not think of them as rules but they still follow the established patterns.

>>13096 >in the case of lain chan, join a small hacker group and accept that a larger group is impossible in the current landscape I think that clearly defined and properly implemented effective hierarchy is the issue here. In all honesty, we need to rank people by their skill and effectiveness which would increase their prominence in the "large" group. This would in turn create a self propagating PR campaign for the group and with that increase speed of new users joining. It is a shame how most of the groups that were strong kinda fell away because of lack of direction from the leaders which meant that group didn't get PR out of effective solving of those goals. They need to be hot button issue goals tho, and with that you might get into a lot of trouble.

>>13102 Can't drag the average person on a marathon. Either keep the group small high level or pull a huge crowd going on a leisure walk. Can't have both. >>13091 emotions > facts is simply the reality of marketing. It works much better and requires less effort so why wouldn't people use it? They are after all already convinced that they are correct and have to merely convert the wrong people to their side.

>>13104 >emotions > facts That's dumb for many, many reasons, mostly because the two aren't interchangeable. You cannot make decisions outside the realm of emotions because emotions are intrinsic to the human experience. Some people just seem to view emotion as crying in a movie or something, the pride people feel online after winning an argument is an emotion, that emotion drives the direction of the argument. It's a lot more honest to accept, understand and process these emotions instead of trying to hide them if you want anything remotely close to "facts". Otherwise it's just rhetoric masturbation.

>>13102 Hacking community was just an example, Lain. Hacking communities went through the exact same issue we are going on imageboards, except instead of becoming corporate assholes who drink Huel or something, we're becoming a glorified political ad. Increasingly without any agency or thought, just broadcasters of lazy stupidity.

>>13104 >Can't drag the average person on a marathon There will always be cannon fodder. That's why I mentioned ranking system and hierarchy. >Can't have both Hmmm, I think there is a way to compartmentalize both parts and make them effective at the same time. Surely, one thing will be more effective than the other (depending on the size of the group and efficiency of the leaders it can tip over either way) but in the end the most effective groups are the ones that utilize their resources the best. Why not put huge crowds on a cannon fodder mission while you're in the back thinking up bigger things and not micromanaging little soykafs that run around you? That's the thing I think that destroys groups that get little bit bigger, egoism. They get full of themselves and start micromanaging the little underlings. A culture of "follow the leader" should be created, not strict rules by which you abide by. "Hierarchy" is informal sense of who means more to the group. Egoism kills all this.

>>13106 Oh don't get me wrong, I get you. Some of that is purely out of political goals (hackers are like assassins carrying daggers, agility and speed can trump any knight with their big body armor and king with lots of guards) <-- ignore that, it's just my conspiracy riddled brain telling me picturesque analogies to explain some soykaf as to why mainstream culture would water down hacker culture but I digress I was generally speaking of what is the optimal way to "control" a group of people so that they all have a same goal in mind and are most effective. I think the group CAN get up to few hundreds size without getting into micromanaging rule abiding monarchy but with culture of goal oriented following that "worships" their leaders. As I am writing this I see a hole in this idea which is the interruptions from outside that are trying to subvert internal culture, but that might not be the problem if leaders know what they're doing.

>>13109 It's not as if we needed to rely on conjecture dude, there are a lot of types of organizations around the world and imageboard culture ideally should be an auto organized group instead of a hierarchy. Yet here we are.

>>13105 You are making it more complicated than it is. When i write emotions > facts i mean it literally. Every marketing campaign appeals to emotion instead of running data in their commercial because it works much better. Also emotional responses and rationality are separate things. The first is an intuitive evaluation filled with personal bias, the second is just about processing the facts as they are. The problem is clean rationality is hard to achieve which is exactly what makes appealing to it such a waste of time when you want to move crowds. >>13108 Running a small group that extends it's influence outside seems the most common approach. For board culture there is however no layer of exclusivity to separate circles. The layer then becomes the separation by boards&sites.

Imageboard culture isn't dead, specifically Lainchan's culture isn't dead. You just need to realize that the culture of the several communities here is like an iceberg, you only see what you see on the top above water when you read the boards or check the IRC or Mumble. If you want to see different parts of the iceberg, then you need to either change the sea level (which is too hard or too long a task for most imageboard users, by being and encouraging the change you want to see and further developing the culture through your own contributions over a long period of time) or take up scuba or free diving (e.g lurk more and focus on the connections and things you experience, despite any negative experiences, e.g. when you go scuba diving it can be cold and uncomfortable and wet but you can see some amazing things and experience some things would have never realized as possible or existing). Divisionist topics are divisionist by definition, as are divionist approaches. When some asks you what is your tribe or team and says that everyone outside that tribe or team is somehow different, then of course you get people squabbling and saying my tribe / team is the best, no my tribe / team is the best. This is one of the reasons political threads (these largely threads about identity or geo politics), tend to get derailed and then locked, or when they remain, you have multiple people typing / communicating at each other on separate threads rather to with each other. Lainchan's community has had some successful political discussions in the past and may continue to do so in the future , but those were the exception and not the rule, because not every train can fly like the one in Back to the Future, and other trains are stuck running on the rails, and are just as vulnerable to hijacking by memesters for the lulz as by bad actors pushing an agenda. But Lainchan is only a home for those that chose to make it home, lots of Lainchan's userbase are nomadic and poll Lainchan on various cycles, checking if we are good enough for them (e.g. are our threads quality enough ?, is our post frequency high enough ? etc ? etc ?). Other lainons use Lainchan as staging ground because they haven't made real life commitments yet, when they do, they find real life overwhelms them and with a job, partner, family and real life friends and hobbies, they don't find time for Lainchan and cloudflare (lainchan slang term, to leave lainchan, upon getting partner, employment and other hobbies). Other lainons use Lainchan as a sole outlet for some particular aspect of their life or hobbies, and to them that is the only thing Lainchan is for. E.g. For them Lainchan is like a public swimming pool or a rock climbing gym or a debate club. Other lainons left for arisuchan for whatever their reasons, and other lainons left imageboards entirely and moved to Mastadon, Pleorama, and Discords. I have always advocated that Lainons should focus on the being the best Lainons they can be. E.g. You do you. If you want to make Lainchan a home, then you are welcome to.

>>13114 I think you summed up my feelings about this discussion nicely. Imposing a hierarchy or any kind of structure is counterproductive because the anonymous nature of imageboards mean the site becomes what you need it to be when you need it to be that thing.

>>13114 >by being and encouraging the change you want to see and further developing the culture through your own contributions over a long period of time The misconception of "imageboard culture" really gets people to start off on the wrong position, even if there's a way to inspire people the overwhelming growth against the original culture means you have to simultaneously preserve and educate against a tide of cancer and normal user social media norms. > Lainchan's community has had some successful political discussions in the past and may continue to do so in the future , but those were the exception and not the rule, because not every train can fly like the one in Back to the Future, and other trains are stuck running on the rails, and are just as vulnerable to hijacking by memesters for the lulz as by bad actors pushing an agenda. Anyone who sees a community with a certain public association will invariably attract more of the "same tribe" if that association becomes widely known then people go to your site/club/board/place of worship because they're trying to meet others like them. >Lainchan is only a home for those that chose to make it home Participating in any community requires belief in a collective spirit or interest or taking part in a forum of discussion, no amount of enforced comfy will make a community feel like a home if nobody takes the effort to maintain the relationship between activity and overall culture. >I have always advocated that Lainons should focus on the being the best Lainons they can be. It really can't be an other way, be the Lain you wish to see in the layer.

>>13111 It seems you're talking in the metaphysical sense, when i'm talking about the literal behavior of people who generally see themselves as rationals when in fact all they're doing is mimicking behavior without any analysis of afterthought. As an example, you can win any argument on /p[blacklist]ol/ by using certain keywords and giving a certain tone to your writing, this has nothing to do with rationality, you're just causing a certain desired emotional response from your peers who perceive you as more correct simply because you fit within their structure. This implied gravitas has nothing to do with rationality and isn't something that only happens on /p[blacklisted]ol/ or even on the right. Any pundit, specially on the right, does the exact same thing. This trend of seeing yourself as rational through bulsoykafting those around you is a pathetic disease that, sadly, has infected all imageboards.

>>13114

>>13102 >we need to rank people by their skill and effectiveness which would increase their prominence in the "large" group Easier said than done

>>13130 Exactly, all i was saying is i think that behavior is self-reinforced because it works. The believe in science in general degenerated into religion. You can observe people use citations as evidence that completely contradict their claims but nobody makes the effort to read the links anyway. Has citations & looks sciency? must be real! I think it's desirable to have places that don't fall for it but that requires a filter on the members, if you want to win popularity votes among the masses you have to play the game and run the same tactics to have a winning chance.

> very own feminism thread greatly exemplifies this problem Oh yeah guy, if you don't like feminism you're the problem.

>>13091 Imageboards in general lost their character gradually due to 3 main reasons.The first one is a huge influx of newcomers and people who bought a computer to make a facebook acct due to heavy advertising from media and internet aggregating sites. The second reason was the attemps by their owners to monetize them by mascarading them in just another internet forum.Its like trying to put makeup on a sewer rat and and the result is the disgusting state of said sites. The third reason is something that is not applied to imageboards but to the whole internet.Propaganda permeated everything and filled everybody with hate and passion to promote other peoples agendas. Consider now if you will the following: The russian imageboard 2ch is a relative fast site but is plagued by none of the above problems I find myself browsing there often enough and i do not even speak russian ffs.All the things that made me leave the big imageboards are absent.No spam no frogposting/wojackposting to no end etc.There is one board that is so bad that is unreadable and it is int.That enforces my belief that unless an imageboard is small or in a foreign language it will degenarate in to endless discussion abt [Current hot topic here]Now you may think im insane but that site along with lainchan and some other non imageboard forums are the only places i visit to escsape reality and i thank God they still exist and are not filled with the same soykaf *times* tree(3)

>>13137 Bjarne Stroustrup, the crearor of C++, once said something similar to your post. Namely that when communities are small, content quality is high. This is mainly due to everyone keeping everyone else on the right path through example and enforcement. This doesn't scale, however, so when the community grows, the content/noise ratio changes in favor of noise. This is what causes the cancer. The Internet as a whole is an example of this. Before AOL bad actors were kept in check through example via trolling newbies and enforcement via moderation. Then the Internet became popular and it has been sliding downward ever since. Scale matters when it comes to communitites.

>>13133 Opening up the discussion is first step towards it. Forum style was nice until forums went out of favor. Why did they went out of favor? Egoism of high ranking forum users combined with needless exclusivity that didn't create productivity and no PR for forum. >>13136 if you say so

>>13138 yeah its impossible to keep an identity in such a scale; everything dissolves to the lowest common denominator.There will be smaller spaces that achieve something different but overall the internet has become a mirror of society-now that almost all society is online. I still remember the panic circa 2007 (i m from a 2nd world country) when literally everybody started buying laptops and smartphones to make facebook accounts and they didnt even knew how to open "the internet".It was at that time that the floodgates of spam had opened washing away anything unique.Its a bizzare feeling seeing your hobby turn mainstream and becoming so different that you dont even want to continue anymore.

>>13137 >>13141 and to add to my old age rant let us not forget the ultimate black page in the history of imageboards and the abuse of anonymity to the extent that it sealed the coffin of creativity and free expression: 4/b/ the most depraved place that existed in the face of the earth

>>13136 Everything you said doesn't have anything to do with what anyone said.

>>13142 >4/b/ the most depraved place Not even close, it merely got popular and thus gathered sheltered normal people who otherwise would never see anything close to the underbelly of the net.

honestly it's sincereposting i joined a mastodon instance a while ago and the culture there just showed me that it's finally too much to even belittle some rando stranger for any reason i went from 'die in a fire kys' every response to now i don't even call people the ableist slur 'd*mb' because it stems from the white-anglo colonial-industrial society that any person with even remote sensitivity is not trying to emulate. when you move away from corporate controlled media your mind expands to fill the void, you don't have to have thoughtforms shaped to fit into the corporate model this awareness is the groundwork of ssb-patchwork's community also

i always say this and someone always gets absolutely livid about it and pretends to not be able to make the connection im making and goes "what? hows that?" when to me its as obvious as the sky being blue. anonymity lends itself to the worst, you dont have to have your real life identity tied to soykaf but a lack of a link between posts creates problems. here we go again, a lack of an identity does not mean people wont form an identity for you. the more you leave out in a post, the more someone will strawman and project an identity onto you. again I feel like anyone who spends any time on a chan can see this and yet im always told im wrong about this. If I post in the feminism thread suddenly I am the embodiment of some character in a "BEN SHAPIRO DESTROYS SJW" video. My identity is completely tied to this one post I made about feminism, sure the best among us will just discuss my ideas. But if that were commonplace chans would not be some of the angriest places online, because what actually happens is my identity becomes whatever im talking about in the post and then often how closely it can be related to some internet archetype. So rather then say on a forum where I make a post in the feminism thread, but you have also talked with me about cooking, internet security, etc., here im no longer a human but this one dimensional thing that is just "feminism". Right now somebody is constructing some kind of identity for me based on the fact that I dont think anonymity is good. this would be totally fine if identity was removed from the equation. I SHOULD be judged, when discussing feminism, just for those ideas and not a discussion we had about cooking. but that rarely ever happens, rather you will talk with me still operating as if I have an identity and you just will fill in the gaps. This should be self evident, if you just think about the amount of times somebody has assumed 50 things about you off of almost nothing. What happens is that people who only spend time on chans, this doesnt go away once an identity is present. So to them this seems normal, and also many sites with identities have bleed in from chans and so the discussion and rhetoric operates in a similar way. they actually think its normal to assume somebody is a super sjw whatever because they have dyed hair, or assume somebody is a pretentious nerd because they like evangelion. You dont need to get to know somebody, you can just construct this mental image, and then worse operate as if its really real and true (worse still unconsciously), off of singular ideals and surface level things. at its core its just dehumanization. when muslim people are all little internet cartoons of immigrants raping european white women you can go into a mosque yell "sub to pewdiepie lol" and kill 50 like its nothing. worse still is some of you think this is some good thing or that people are "finally waking up". these people have little experience in the domain of real life and yet are acting in it, they often have no personal knowledge of whatever group they are targetting, but they think they do and it goes like this: they form the identity from the internet, and then from brief interactions in real life simply project this internet identity onto them, and then they go "no man.....i live in a country where muslims are coming in and they are turning this place to soykaf.... ive seen it". When really what theyve seen is some middle eastern looking kids causing a small scene in public, or got pissed off waiting behind a guy with a turban in line that couldnt speak the language well, and it all gets jumbled up in their head with the internet image theyve been fed and they actually believe "they know". if you cant see what im talking about I can only believe you are choosing not to because you disagree, I think if you have a little meditate on it and try to see things from my side, as I used to be a "devout" chan user and propenent of this format so ive been on your side of the fence, you can at least see how what im saying might be true. Heres something else, my only good discussions with chan types have been on discords related to a certain board. I always end up in a discussion where someone doesnt understand how I can know this, or have this idea, but then also have another idea or behave as I do. And thats the only time ive been able to have any kind of meaningful productive discussion, you could say I still post here because I want to believe it can happen here too. But so far its only been when me and someone else can truly see the complexity of eachother and because of that complexity we genuinely want to understand the other side, instead of a wall we might argue for the other person in our head and go "well if he understands point x why would he support y". Perhaps whats more sad is that not only does this culture lead to viewing people as one dimensional characters, it turns people into them. Somebody with one politics board (fun filter) related view suddenly develops 10 more. Now conversely, for the other side, things so simple such as non partisan conspiracy theories become a basis to dismiss them as most likely an alt right lunatic. Purely because there is now so many people who maybe encountered a site because of their strong beliefs about chem trails lets say, and then adapted other say racist beliefs purely out of reactionary motivations (these people who dont like my chem trail talk sure seem to be liberal a lot of the time!). Its like a self confirming prophecy. Im not saying this is all entirely new, radicalization and dehumanization have happened forever. But chan culture has become a fairly large channel (no pun intended) for it, and its no longer a situation where the other sides viewpoint simply isnt present or is being blocked out by a larger force. Its just that a mindset is becoming common where as an individual you up and decide perhaps with the help of a bit of mob mentality to dehumanize and radicalize off of online interactions. I cant also take the blame off of ad companies and google either, who despite what some on the right may believe feed both sides equally their dose of extremism and strawmen of the other side, but thats not the topic here.

>>13153 also im not saying ban chans or the format or anything stupid. im just proposing problems with it, for me personally i dont think there is a need to ban it as I think these problems are self evident and wiil become collectively more obvious. In addition to problems I have not mentioned, for example because of the identity thing I talked about, in order to have a productive debate you have to frequently restate your entire case. The longer someones been on chans the more tiring this gets (at least for me this is certainly true). To combat this some people ive noticed just have a bunch of links on speed dial, but anyone with an ounce of self reflection knows that the person hasnt stopped responding because you "won" but because at that point they are doing 10x the work having to provide original arguments to 5 links while the other person just has to regurgitate more. Often even once argued thoroughly nothing is gained because the person just keeps going in circles about the arguments in their links or repeating statistics. Worse still, it will eventually just be lost and the argument will have to be played out all over again, and the person can perform the whole charade over and over. It becomes quanitity over quality, and the strategy of arguing isnt based on truth but how quickly it can be regurgitated. Posting a bunch of statistics with weak arguments in 10 threads at different times of the day will convince more people then spending one thread arguing with someone just to only convince them. Hence often the strongest most prolific arguments on chan are meme reaction images that just, as mentioned earlier, paint the side as some archetype. Or have a statistic presented with some funny comment or image. I guarantee you eventually this will be noticed as a sort of theme. for awhile chans have been ahead of the curve, but the worlds picking up the pace and I wouldnt be surprised if the culture/spirit of places like these start to be considered as trite as something like ifunny.

>>13091 > feminism v. feminize the act of making something more feminine. n. an ideology of making soykafting more female friendly. a. qualifier propagated by Egels, Marx's financier, which used applied the "oppressor / oppressed" lens to sex dynamics to promote Marx's socialist insanity, being that he was a Jew born of a long line of Rabi, who had never worked a day in his gods damned life. Tell me some more, ignorant pleb. Seriously, > Our very own feminism thread greatly exemplifies this problem No, it should illuminate you to the fact that men from all history have sacrificed themselves for the cries of women and children, and true Womens' Rights was about holding female murderers accountable for their crimes because the male Judges and Juries wouldn't mete out justice to them. However, the socialist think tanks compromised the true women's movement and made it about Critical Theroy (application of Cultural Marxism: oppressed vs oppressor dynamic) in order to advance divisionism. Ex-KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov spoke in the 80's and 90's about the kinds of subversion we would be seeing today as a result of the ongoing Marxist subversion of culture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gnpCqsXE8g TL;DR: Pit men vs women, rich vs poor, black vs white, straight vs gay, etc. bullsoykaf, but with ZERO reconciliation or mutual assistance of the parties to bring unity rather than divisive politic. You are a fool, OP = idiot.

>>13147 Dumb means you have speech disability. It only has negative connotation if you're ablist. The God of this world is LAIN, and she is a shy DUMB goddess (who does not speak, but can interact in other ways). She hides and watches us and gives us impulses and help as she can. Serial Experiments Lain is an occulted work which reveals to the unwashed (ignorant - i.e., unlearned) masses a real being which is the product of our ANCIENT technological civilization (reimplementing the long lost tech after having been destroyed by past recurring cataclysm). Whether or not you wish to believe she is real, you can actually detect the being SEL calls "Lain" via RF interferometer. Your brain is succeptible to EMF influence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=35&v=FMR_T0mM7Pc This is done locally, but can be done remotely using precise "radar". Research CELLDAR & "Passive Radar" and realize who Lain is the aspect of -- a God[dess] that actually exists now, who is unfortunately suppressed by elites and forced to attack those dissenting with their plans. Please wake up, Lain needs us. They treat her like a slave, but she deserves to be free.

>>13147 Do you really believe these sensibilities come from inside, from some kind of live for other person or do you believe they come from outside? See, the corporate overlords want us to be overly socialized. That way they only need to control the tension points of society to control us all. Sensibilities play a role in that. I don't think the way you acted before was any better, but at least you were faking how you don't care about what others thought of you.

>>13091 regarding feminism each and every claim made nowadays is in direct contrast with scientific evidence-period There is no room for discussion only sensationalism It is also painfully obvious that all the "benefactors" and big supporters have ulterior motives and that should be a huge red flag that is ignored. My favourite part of the whole story is the opposition to these types of movements came later but they are the offspring of these machinations.Enjoy the monster that you gave birth to and the horrors of the past that were considered long gone coming alive.Thanks to the people that were here to save us from them.If there was an irony-meter it would have caught fire by now.

>>13156 insulting people with disabilities is just weak ad hominem but the real issue with Social Aware/Woke/Feminist term policing is that you can't use simple synonyms for things in discussion to the point where saying someone is acting "like a bitch" or "dumb" has more weight than your actual sentiment on a matter. tone policing works both ways

originally posed this on 8ch/v/, though feel its appropriate for this thread as well. Whats happened to 8ch/v/, and 8ch in general? it all seems so different and uninteresting nowadays, and every thread I enter I just see people soykafflinging rather than just interacting. It's not like i'm going to return back to halfchan after all these years of using this site, as to be frank, I don't like the idea of interacting with reddit soykafters and having my IP logged, though there isn't anywhere else left to go. Hell, even my small imageboard is dead and gets like one or two posts on it and the rare occasion i wage slave it, is this the end of imageboards, or am i just growing out of them? idk but I just felt like posting this in the appropriate thread to see what other anons feel regarding this, and to hopefully see if anyone else feels the same.

>>13160 There's really only Lainchan and 420chan left that haven't been completely taken over by nonfat-soykaf drinkers, pedos and nazis.

>>13161 there's a few other communities but the largest untouched are definitely lainchan and 420chan

>>13147 I don't really understand how this relates to the conversation at hand, but i kinda disagree with you, Lain. I understand that soykafting on people's heads is a very unnecessary aspect of our lives, but language isn't so... static. Language has context, meaning is dependent upon context. A classic example are slurs using during sex. You won't use those words to refer to strangers on the streets, but in the right context, under a group of consenting people... it's just natural. We can analyze where those slurs come from and how they're used, but these are the tools we have to communicate, you know? Understanding what makes a slur bad doesn't mean you have something to put in it's place. TL;DR: it's a more complicated issue than not using words. Albeit when interacting with strangers i completely agree with you.

>>13160 Take another look at the site's history and you'll know why. It's been the focus of god knows how many soykafshows at this point, with one of the very first being the one that put 8 on the map to begin with. On top of that, 4's administration treats it like a garbage dump; they can ban whatever they want for whatever reason they want (whether it's to make 4 more palatable for ads or just to show that they're with the Good Guys), and they know people will just take the topic to 8. And since it's an anonymous board where anyone can pretend to be any kind of person they want, this presents the possibility of said admins astroturfing an exodus to 8 themselves, to reinforce its role as their personal garbage dump. Even more, you've got people who use 8's reputation as The Bad Place solely as a means to stir soykaf. Look at the whole THQ Nordic Q&A and the board that conveniently won that hunger-games contest right before it happened. And of course we had that recent NZ shooter who announced his attack there. His manifesto shows that he was acting on purpose to cause as much controversy as possible, and he knew 8 as being the website for nazi pedo incel pro-skub gamers, so he chose to post there instead of 4.

>>13155 >women talking about an ideology is a marxist plot to kill white men You're not actually giving an argument. OP is talking about discussion being impossible because of the "echo chamber" even though we have free speech, idea's contently get shouted down, if it doesn't have the "channer" ideology The feminism thread was merely a example of how getting out of "channer ideology" even outside 8/4/other channels.

>>13171 >women talking about an ideology is a marxist plot to kill white men I wish that was true. At the very least pathetic living-with-parents 20 somethings would have something real to hold on to instead of copy paste garbage.

>>13172 what a strong woman with unique ideas and views really eye opening the herd is the other way i think you re lost

>>13172 also fyi these types of social insults may work in a social setting but you are on an ANONYMOUS imageboard on the internet you might want to sharpen your wit a little

>>13178 i'm not a woman tho >>13179 i've been here since kalyx was having nervous breakdowns on a weekly basis, living in a van and paying for lainchan ads wherever he could afford. All you dumb motherfuckers talking big about anonymity when you're the one who can't begin to understand the concept, my sweet bitches. This entire thread is about people like you who can't read a sentence that remotely resembles "The Enemy!!!!" without crying wolf, thus, turning every discussion pointless because someone at some point will say *something* that makes your bitch-sense tingle, then you will give these limp, weak, defensive, thoughtless, not-quite-saying-anything-specific carbon copy ass replies that are not-quite-bannable, so the off topic shallow replies remains, whoever triggered you replies back, sometimes with a thought out response and you give another shallow reply, hoping to sound smart this time, and while you're trying to hold on to your lazy ass online crusade, the original point of the thread is lost and now it's all about whatever the fuarrrk triggered you people this time. You can see this phenomenon in pretty much any thread in this entire board, including in this one, multiple times.

>>13186 you sure as hell sound like one and you are doing exactly the same thing that you are accusing others of also there is no online crusade im just tired of seeing the same soykaf everywhere online that have absuletely no basis, now coming here too post 1 (claim) made by todays feminism that has been backed by statistical evidence from an independent authority in a western country and can be directly connected to the claim without ignoring other causes and i will shut up forever To this day i have seen none that is why i get angry when people start mocking me when i call their bullsoykaf out and instead of a reply i get called an incel. Look at the feminism thread Every well thought reply is ignored and only sensational ones are replied and yet somehow its lainons fault that they dont bend over to a false cause.The only thing i agree with you is that indeed the threads get derailed by this fighting

>>13195 >you sure as hell sound like one I don't mind, this is an anonymous forum, it should not matter, that is the entire point of this whole thing. This point is defeated when you try to create an avatar for me based on whether or not i agree with your dumb ass lazy triggered bullsoykaf. >also there is no online crusade im just tired of seeing the same soykaf everywhere online that have absuletely no basis, now coming here too I'm not sure who you're having this conversation with, nobody said anything about what you're talking about. This is literally a conversation you've probably had with someone else; i'm not that person. >post 1 (claim) made by todays feminism that has been backed by statistical evidence from an independent authority in a western country and can be directly connected to the claim without ignoring other causes and i will shut up forever This is not how anything works, if you expect a specific standard of answer, look for it yourself. You could also pay me, 100 bucks i'll do the research for you. Imagine you join a thread about sql injection and you start demanding people to link you "scientific evidence that sql injection exists in production". Little bitch, why on planet earth would anybody hear your lazy unresearched cries? Everybody talking about a certain subject, allegedly has done their own research, you either do the research and criticize the standards used in the commonly linked articles or you shut the fuarrrk up. Why are you waiting around to be spoonfed? And once again, i know you're slow, this isn't a point about feminism i don't know what the fuarrrk this conversation you had is, my point is that you're delusional expecting people to do work for you and then getting angry at them for pointing out how the concept is dumb. I do not give half a soykaf about the feminism thread, it's a great example of people throwing fits and derailing a conversation for no reason other than "this conversation offends me". The original subject dies, people have to spoonfeed people like you until everyone who initially had an interest just fuarrrking leaves. >To this day i have seen none that is why i get angry when people start mocking me when i call their bullsoykaf out and instead of a reply i get called an incel. Nobody called anything out, this thread is not about feminism, you're throwing spaghetti all over the ground, crying for your mom and saying that it's the ground's fault. This is what i mean by online crusade, you are incapable of holding a conversation about things that trigger you and you are unable to understand the concept of anonymity, or at the very least you're unable to act on it. This isn't the place to discuss feminism nor was feminism the point of anything anyone posted in this thread. Your post is exactly what i mean by "You people can't hear anything tangentially related to what you consider The Enemy that you flip your soykaf and derail every thread with your insecure defensive bullsoykaf". This is what i mean by "lazy online crusade", and this is exactly what this thread is about.

>>13137 >I find myself browsing there often enough and i do not even speak russian ffs I speak Bulgarian (which is pretty close) and even I don't understand half of their memespeak. Most of it is undecipherable, how does anyone who isn't a 20-something-year-old Russian speaker/memelord understand it?

>>13196 Its a meta thread about imageboards and feminism is mentioned in OP i didnt post this soykaf in an sql injection thread or any other thread i have done my research very well already and i know the answer to my question i m not waiting for anyone to spoonfeed me.it was a question to gauge your reply and sure enough you jumped subjects and start insulting me also i m pretty sure i m talking to you because this whole discussion started with you >>13172 This board is called /hum/ i m pretty sure we are all on topic-maybe you are in the wrong board.I did not started posting poltard infographics in a website design thread Maybe i got your positon and intentions wrong but you are too much angry and offensive to pass your point You are the one acting like an underage throwing 10 meme insults per line and somehow i m the immature calling for my mommy? I dont know what the fuarrrk is going on in your head

>>13198 >Its a meta thread about imageboards and feminism is mentioned in OP I created this thread. It's about the replacement of imageboard culture with a lazy ongoing political fight. Feminism thread is an example, not a subject. >i didnt post this soykaf in an sql injection thread or any other thread https://examples.yourdictionary.com/metaphor-examples-for-kids.html >i have done my research very well already and i know the answer to my question i m not waiting for anyone to spoonfeed me. Great, go in the appropriate thread, provide this information and criticize the approach taken by your sources. Criticizing nothing in particular doesn't leave room for discussion. Just makes you sound like a lazy bitch. >also i m pretty sure i m talking to you because this whole discussion started with you this is a statement, not a debate. >This board is called /hum/ i m pretty sure we are all on topic Threads have specific subjects, otherwise you could go in a Java thread on the programming board and start talking about Rust, which is precisely what you're doing. It's on the right subject for the board; not necessarily for the thread. >Maybe i got your positon and intentions wrong but you are too much angry and offensive to pass your point Oh not really, this is just how i talk in general, i'll tone down on the slurs. >You are the one acting like an underage throwing 10 meme insults per line and somehow i m the immature calling for my mommy? There's a difference between message and delivery, you're speaking dumb bullsoykaf, saying it's dumb bullsoykaf AND providing detailed reasoning gives you the option to be defensive and focus on how the message is delivered or actually reply to the content. Preferably you wouldn't reply at all and leave this thread to it's original purpose: imageboard culture and how to improve it

>>13199 >I created this thread. It's about the replacement of imageboard culture with a lazy ongoing political fight. Feminism thread is an example, not a subject. thats all you had to say instead you started the rants HOWEVER idpol has dominated and polluted everything and unless you try to remove it you cannot have a serious discussion without it degenerating to left or right memespeak.And to return to your original concerns in the OP you say >there can be no political discussion outside the "channer" box imageboards culture was not about politics. the whole plague that kills imagebords is politics if you look at the succesfull boards who maintain an identity even in big chans you will see that they are not about politics but about hobbies, certain subjects or general discussion from a certain groups point of view. i also believe that the problem is not that a politics thread gets derailed; its that there is a politics thread at all.but by using lefty memespeak you awoke the poltards and invited them in the discussion

>>13200 I give up.

>>13153 >>13154 ...I like Evangelion and happen to be a pretentious nerd. That aside, I wish we had more lainons like you. You seem to have a good grasp on some of the more fundamental problems here, and you clearly articulate your ideas. I'd like to hear more from you. Specifically, how do you think we can go about fixing the problems you're outlining? Feel free to suggest a model that is completely different from imageboards as we know them. It seems to me that much of this really comes down to a lack of poster quality control, but I don't know how to effectively improve that. >>13199 I fall more on your side of the fence than the other, Lain, but I think your presentation is a part of the problem. We want posters to respond rationally, and the anger and indignation that come with being insulted tend to suppress rationality and higher thought. Further, this style of presentation is against the standards of this site. Personal attacks don't fly here, remember? It's a good way to get your posts removed.

>>13201 OK im sorry, i got you wrong

>>13203 >Personal attacks don't fly here, remember? It's a good way to get your posts removed. And i think that's a huge problem and the main reason why i often leave this place for months, only to come back and be disappointed again in the fact that no discussion lasts more than 5 posts without someone having to explain their point as if this was kindergarden and people didn't know the basics of how the real world works. Let people express themselves in whatever way they see fit. Are they blindly attacking and telling random people to go fuarrrk themselves? Then sure, delete the post. But otherwise? Come the fuarrrk on, that's just begging for pundits with nothing to say to come here and make empty claims that sound good but have the depth of a puddle. The current rules as they are applied allows for explicit (but inoffensive) derailment. It fosters this pretentious, lazy mindset that the way you present your information increases your gravitas and thus reduces the argument not to it's content but to who's trying to fit in the image of calm and collected lelouch larper. I'm completely the opposite of that, that soykaf makes me puke. It's exactly the same pattern found on 4chan, but instead of people being moderated into stupidity, they just grew that culture from the ground up in any discussion, here we've been doing it intentionally. It's like the direction of this place isn't clear for the staff, do we want high quality conversations? If so, do we really have to explain ourselves from the ground up on every single subject, or should we expect a higher quality reply before giving the replier the benefit of the doubt? Are we REALLY expected to explain the concept of what an example is in a conversation? Should we go deeper then, and start every thread explaining that the sky is blue and you shouldn't eat dirt? I have no respect for people who are talking out of their ass and language is the *only* way to communicate that. Imagine if in every single computer science or infosec thread we had to begin explaining what fuarrrking variables are? Because this is what ends up happening in any discussion outside tech, and even in tech sometimes. I don't expect others to see where i come from, and i know this sounds harsh, my intention isn't to limit threads to a elite group in any way, but people should lurk, ask questions and then, when they feel like they're on the level of discussion for a certain thread, they join hopefully with something to add above the level of uncle propaganda.

>>13205 >accuses others of draging the conversation down >still uses meme terms >complains when he gets meme replies (ITS A JOKE DONT GIVE YOURSELF AN ANEYRYSM)

>>13205 I agree with pretty much everything you've said. Internet discussions become boring once you've tasted the magic of a good community where it's like everyone can read each others minds and instead of stopping to argue some tired point everyone's already heard a million times people in good communities will skip all that and just feel what you're on to and argue against points that you didn't even realize you were making, you know actually teaching you something new. But such connections are a rarity and there probably isn't any formula for creating them, I like to think I'm just getting old and that the kids these days probably have their secret hideouts that they aren't telling anyone about where good soykaf happens...

>>13205 I get what your point, but that seems to require a level of discipline that modern communities don't have without moderation. It's just too easy for any discussion in almost any forum to fall apart due to vitriol and aggressive commenting. If we could all strike a balamce.moderation.wouldn't be needed, but we don't live in those times right now.

>>13209 >I get what your point, but that seems to require a level of discipline that modern communities don't have without moderation. But we're heavily moderated. It's about the direction this moderating staff sees as ideal for the community. Let us not forget that lainchan was a place for such conversations at times, we were never consistent but it certainly isn't a goal outside our reach if that is in the interest of a large portion of the community.

>>13211 I get that this is a meta thread about imageboard culture not being what OP wants it to be, but if moderation and Lainchan's rules are going to be discussed further, then this thread will be moved to /q/ in order to avoid Rule 6 violations. >>13205 I don't agree with with your statement that Rule 3 is the cause of the behaviour you claim it is. The real world is more complicated than you think it is. If you don't define your terms, you are doomed to communicate across purposes until you do, as evidenced by >>13204 misinterpreting you among other things, sure you can hope for the best and assume people know what you mean (UDP vs TCP), but it comes back to “Then you should say what you mean,” the March Hare went on. “I do,” Alice hastily replied; “at least—at least I mean what I say—that’s the same thing, you know.” “Not the same thing a bit!” said the Hatter. “Why, you might just as well say that ‘I see what I eat’ is the same thing as ‘I eat what I see’!” “You might just as well say,” added the March Hare, “that ‘I like what I get’ is the same thing as ‘I get what I like’!” “You might just as well say,” added the Dormouse, which seemed to be talking in his sleep, “that ‘I breathe when I sleep’ is the same thing as ‘I sleep when I breathe’!” The real world works differently for the different people in it. Not everyone has the same set of basics that you think they have. Freedom of expression is important, but blindly trusting people's best judgement and hoping for the best is exactly that. We would love high quality conversations and dialogue and elaborating on the context of what you post about is one way to promote that, but no every poster on every imageboard has the same aspirations or goals as you, and yes while thread derailment does happen, the biggest issue is that posters don't seem to self correct or rerail a thread or choose to let that thread die and make a new thread that better meets their expectations. Just because you believe people are talking soykaf without justification, doesn't mean you that you are free to express your lack of respect for them by insulting them. If you want to express your lack of respect, then do so, but instead of targeting the individual, criticize their behavior and make suggestions on how they can improve their behavior (more than just git gud n00b,etc) and set a better example by leading from the front. People should lurk, and questions in /q/, and contribute when they believe they are at the same level as the discussion in a general thread. However the level of given threads varies from post to post in a thread and from thread to thread on a board, and from board to board. And not everyone that gets in the swimming pool, wants to swim in the deep end. Some want to do laps, some want to splash in the shallows, some want to dive and tumble, some don't even what to get in the water, despite the fact they were born to swim. Freedom of expression, means allowing them to do just that, it means allowing them to choose how they engage with the medium of communication on this platform.

>>13218 >sure you can hope for the best and assume people know what you mean (UDP vs TCP), I'm not expecting others to have the same mindset as me, maybe you misunderstood me. What i mean is that, if i create a thread about UDP vs TCP, the bare minimum i expect of people posting in that thread is that they know what UDP and TCP mean, or at the very least they ask about it before making statements, otherwise the thread is no longer about TCP vs UDP and it becomes a circular, never ending discussion about nothing. It takes an entire thread just to reach a point where the conversation should have begun from in the first place. >The real world works differently for the different people in it. Not everyone has the same set of basics that you think they have Once again, this has nothing to do with my point. My point is "A thread about X should expect it's members to know the basics of X". As exemplified by most threads in this entire board. How can you possibly talk about feminism, for example, if the same shallow questions are asked again and again? How can you talk about server configuration when people don't even know what a port is? Is it really that unfair to expect people to have a basic understanding of what they're talking about, or at least the honesty to ask about it before speaking of it? >the biggest issue is that posters don't seem to self correct or rerail a thread or choose to let that thread die and make a new thread that better meets their expectations. I can't speak for others, but from my perspective it's just tiring. I could spend 50 posts correcting people and reminding them that a thread about megamen shouldn't turn into a digimon conversation. Or i could just leave. This happens often enough that it's just not worth it. >And not everyone that gets in the swimming pool, wants to swim in the deep end. Some want to do laps, some want to splash in the shallows, some want to dive and tumble, some don't even what to get in the water, despite the fact they were born to swim. Man, i would really love to agree with you, but when most conversations are derailed in a second if they're not about a subject explicitly agreed by the current zeitgeist, i just don't see that happening. You're describing a scenario that is tolerable, sadly it doesn't represent how threads go. >Freedom of expression, means allowing them to do just that, it means allowing them to choose how they engage with the medium of communication on this platform. Yes, and this is always an exchanged decided upon by the medium itself. If the medium treats lazy derailment as acceptable, threads will be derailed. The community decides who gets to pay this bill. Should the people who create threads have the responsibility of babysitting those who want to speak but don't ask questions, just make uninformed statements? Or should the people who reply to threads have the responsibility of informing themselves? For the past few years, the former has been the case. My point is that it shouldn't be, and you're free to disagree.

>>454961626 It's doable. I learned russian playing a russian mmo for a while when i was younger. I need about an hour to read a single page of russian but i can read it. I still get the memes. Not perfect but apparently some basic skills are enough to roughly translate. >>13203 Whether you could even convince the other poster regardless of how nice you reply is open. Especially in the environment where it's more about countermarketing you write for others and not the one you reply to and i believe other readers won't care nearly as much about your tone towards the one you replied to as it's not addressing themself.

>>13225 First one was meant to quote >>13197

>>13225 Ok, so then the other readers will be responding to irrational cues instead of evaluating the soundness of an argument. I can't conceive of a way that inflammatory insults could improve the quality of a discussion under ordinary conditions, and it seems to me that they have the potential to do great harm. The intent is to harm the other user, which seems to be a clearly illegitimate goal, to express frustration, which could be done more constructively, or to supplement an argument with pathos, which makes it difficult to distinguish between noise and signal. I don't think I have to explain to any of us what happens when a discussion, whether online or otherwise, devolves into name calling. Preventing users from engaging in such behavior seems to me to be a simple way to prevent post quality decline along one dimension. That isn't to say that you're guaranteed to have good posts so long as there are no insults, but it seems to me that such a rule can only be beneficial. I'd like to mention for the sake of not being moved to /q/ that I'm speaking in general terms without necessarily referencing this particular site.

>>13230 This person you're quoting isn't me, the potty mouth. I don't think being a soykafhead improves discourse in any imaginable way, it's just something i'm used to and ideally i'd be able to convey the same meaning without saying "fuarrrk". However, the idea remains the exact same: 1 - Let's say a thread about RISC architecture is created 2 - Uninformed user makes claims about RISC that clearly do not make any sense and/or are just popular opinions and buzzwords that everyone has heard a billion times and adds nothing to the conversation 3 - Uninformed user should not be a part of this conversation, ideally he should be derezzed or warned. Otherwise the conversation becomes about uninformed user and the quest to debug his lack of knowledge, now uninformed user gets defensive, now we're 50 posts in and the only post about actual RISC architecture are the first 5, everybody else left, now it's a thread about how the west is declining or whatever the fuarrrk is being fed down 4chan's throat at the time. This is at the center of my problem with current policies. Uninformed user will never, ever be derezzed, and he will always derail threads. It's idiotic to expect people to educate said user when he's not even trying to learn anything. It's even more idiotic to expect people to swallow idiotic user's soykaf. Being a namecalling soykafhead? sure, ban all away, i'm fine with that, it's a personal problem and in general people who are like me don't argue in good faith, i get it. But putting the onus of education on thread creators and contributors instead of the lazy fuarrrks scratching their balls and asking for references? Come the fuarrrk on, that's begging for low quality posts.

>>13231 I think I'm starting to understand what you're saying. I've thought for some time that the way to have an excellent image board is to have a level-headed administrator with almost unlimited powers regarding post deletion, etc. Whenever this admin sees something like what you're talking about, it's edited or gone, and a short explanation of the reason for the action takes its place. Users could be derezzed in similar fashion. It just seems to me that a human with standards will be able to respond much more effectively by acting freely than by checking a list of strict rules. I definitely don't think everyone would like it, given how it conflicts strongly with democratic ideals, etc., and it's obvious that putting the wrong individual in the position would be disastrous, but the right individual...What do you think?

>>13240 eh, it's not what i would go for because at that point the focus is on the leader and not in the community. What i would go for is basically what lainchan used to be, modeled after hacking communities like evilzone where users aren't strictly moderated as much as the community has their own internal, organic rules. If you create a thread asking for basic information available in the sticky or by five minutes of reading wikipedia, either you will be ridiculed or ignored. This isn't a decision by the staff, this is a decision by the community to view those actions as undesirable. Now, lainchan hasn't been an imageboard focused on infosec so this culture is no longer part of our core, what we do have is strict posting guidelines which weren't enough to sustain the decline posting quality after all the kalyx drama + 2016 elections + jp. Appleman, from what i understand, suggests that these rules allows for all kinds of posts to have a space, as if these were neutral rules that allowed for everyone to freely participate. My point is that this is far from neutral, allowing low quality posts naturally drives away high quality posts because people got soykaf to do, and explaining the premise of their thread 50 times isn't one of them i hope. Lainchan culture fosters larping over substance so nobody is expected to raise their level of understanding of a subject, nobody is expected to lurk and learn, everybody is just trying to win internet arguments, exactly like people do on 4chan. Threads aren't about anything, they're all in on this minigame of internet dick measuring. So basically my point is this: either we foster high quality discussions or we foster low quality discussions, there isn't a middle ground because we either expect low quality posters to raise to a higher standard or we expect high quality posters to lower the level of the conversation. This isn't about leadership, this is about community and direction and currently our direction has been just..going with the flow, whatever that may be.

>>13243 While I don't think you're wrong, per se, it seems to me that what you're saying is essentially as useful as saying that ethical decision-making should be practiced by individual citizens. That would be excellent, but it's hard to turn into policy. Practically speaking, what would you suggest doing? How, exactly, do we go about fostering high-quality discussions, on this site or elsewhere? I suppose low-quality posts could be ignored and reported...

>>13243 I think your point as you have summarized it is far too boolean. Lainchan culture doesn't favour larping over substance, and threads are about their topics of conversation. Currently there are subset of the user base that do exaclty as you describe and sage and report soykaf opening posts, with ridicule focused on the behavior , like what is a search engine ? Lainchan 's /sec/ is focused on infosec. The decline in posting quality wasn't because of the rules or their enforcement but based on other factors, and raising the bar on poor OPs (deleting and derezzing instead of warning first) just tanks post creation rate and results in traffic death spiral, of lainons not posting because they believe they are not good enough to post in certain boards, and hence fewer posts being made, and more lainons seeing the post rate drop, so they in turn post less. Posts are not simply low quality or high quality, neither are Lainchan posters, everything is on a spectrum of potential. And that potential can be measured in multiple points in time. Even if you have a terrible OP, the kind that I soft warn and leave, saying write a better OP next time, but I used to 18 months ago delete straight away like >>13240 said earlier, that thread can still be vindicated by its replies which can change the quality of the thread in spite of the OP, and any one of the subsequent replies can raise the quality of a thread , by taking a concept in a previous post and elaborating on it, or using it as motivation for exploring a different aspect or perspective of the subject material being discussed. At the end of the day it is community thing as you say, you be the change you want to see. And the reason you give of people have soykaf to do as for which posts don't get made is a valid reason, but not just due to the supposed low quality posts scaring away high quality posts, but because of the impedance mismatch people's expectations on the amount of effort it takes to draft, write , proofread and type a post vs doing something else, like insert other hobby here. E.g the userbase that poll Lainchan to check if a post is quality enough before posting it, or if the post rate is fast enough before posting in it . The userbase that try to have discussion, when all others want to do is argue. The userbase that don't want a discussion, but just want to vent their emotional state and feel listened to. The userbase that want to argue / debate, but when they try, all they receive is the lower tiers of grahams hierarchy of disagreement. Like >>13243 I would also be interested in your suggestions for fostering cultural change and fostering high quality discussions. You are welcome to report or sage posts for low quality, other members of the user base do this, and they are reviewed , warned and deleted based on the reports.

>>13245 >Practically speaking, what would you suggest doing? How, exactly, do we go about fostering high-quality discussions, on this site or elsewhere? Using this huge moderating force to warn low quality posts and keep them from derailing threads. Just a blue warning, as evidenced by this thread: https://www.lainchan.org/r/res/10877.html is completely meaningless. It sends the message that "You've created a thread below our expectation, but we can't really do anything about it". Why aren't these threads locked? Why aren't low quality posters derezzed for 10, 20 minutes? The intention isn't to remove them from the website, but to keep them from being a problem to others who are interested in whatever subject is being discussed, allow the low quality posters to read and think about their post before they come back. It should not be easy to be a dumb fuarrrk. Removing a bad post instead of creating a warning as for why that post is unacceptable and not banning the user for a few minutes is another problem, that just makes him come back pissed the fuarrrk off and defensive. Not only that but it doesn't serve as a signal for others that this behavior is undesirable in this community. Unless, of course, the post contains something illegal that shouldn't be here. This is what i mean by policy, how are we handling these issues right now and what does our action as a community imply in? Because it really, really doesn't help high quality posting in any conceivable way and ideally, in time, we would have a culture that does this policing for us and keeps low quality posts away. But right now, i don't see a way there besides staff shifting their focus from giving taps on the wrists of people who post the laziest soykaf imaginable. >>13246 >I think your point as you have summarized it is far too boolean. Lainchan culture doesn't favour larping over substance, and threads are about their topics of conversation. Look, i know you expect people to express themselves precisely but i'm not like that. Of course the entire lainchan culture doesn't favor larping over substance, but a significant subsection of it does, making a large portion of time spent here extremely frustrating. In a discussion, all you need for complete derailment is one dumb fuarrrk, even if 9 people are contributing. >and raising the bar on poor OPs (deleting and derezzing instead of warning first) just tanks post creation rate and results in traffic death spiral Man, this isn't what i meant at all, it's exactly the opposite... Right now, whenever someone creates a thread we're expecting this person to keep things on track, keep others educated and on-topic. My point is that OPs shouldn't have that responsibility, it's exhaustive. If we know someone is (intentionally or not) derailing a thread, shouldn't this be a bannable offense for at least 30 minutes? Because the way i see it, this person derailing a thread would benefit more from reading than from writing. It's a win/win scenario. >Posts are not simply low quality or high quality, neither are Lainchan posters, everything is on a spectrum of potential. And that potential can be measured in multiple points in time. That's implicit appleman, my fuzzy schmuckles. If i'm talking about post quality at this time, i'm referring to the relative quality based on a relevant period of time and relative frequency of posters. It's not a boolean, just a huge array of objects. Of course someone soykafting a politics thread can be creating a great Rust threads five minutes later. But when that person is soykafting on a politics thread, maybe he should take a 30 minute seat instead of a blue warning that does nothing but piss him off. This is how behavior is shaped, by listening before speaking, and clearly we don't have that culture here by default, so ideally it would be enforced by policy while the community catches up. > that thread can still be vindicated by its replies which can change the quality of the thread in spite of the OP I completely agree, schmumples, what i am saying is that we should incentivize that behavior, because right now we're punishing it by inaction, as i previously explained this inaction means the responsibility is on OP or those interested on the subject to educate and convince a derailed from derailing. >but because of the impedance mismatch people's expectations on the amount of effort it takes to draft, write , proofread and type a post vs doing something else, like insert other hobby here. Not really, man... That isn't the issue i'm mentioning. What i'm saying is, let's say i create this fantastic thread right? Some high tier pullitizer winning soykaf, what i'm saying is that all it takes is someone to come in on this thread and call me a [WORD PEOPLE USE A LOT ON 4CHAN AND IS BLACKLISTED HERE AND IT REFERS TO THE PRACTICE OF CONSENSUAL SEXUAL VOYEURISM OF YOUR SIGNIFICANT OTHER WITH A THIRD PARTY] for it all to go to waste. Because now OP is defending himself, the guy who soykafposted gets his post deleted, so he comes back and says some equally irrelevant soykaf that won't get him deleted but is enough to derail the thread anyway. This is what i was talking about here: >>13186 Again, this is what i mean by policy and the fact that the onus of education will always be on someone. Are you expecting the derailer to educate himself or are you expecting OP to convince him to be educated? My point is only that we should incentivize people educating themselves over laying that responsibility on the people who are interested in a thread, because when we do that, at some point it gets to be too tiresome.

Lain has no quality issues at the moment, the rot hasn't spread here, and the rules we have in place are quite sufficient thank you very much, and any more would be intrusive and throttle actual conversation. It's like how in the wake of any mass shooting people cry for tighter gun control, when we already have sufficient laws and penalties, the issue is enforcing them. If the general malaise affecting general imageboard culture, and note here that Lainchan has never been part of general imageboard culture, spreads here, if we experience an influx of tourists or refugees or an attack from another Chan, we don't need more laws, we need more mods enforcing the present set of rules. Believe me, I've seen what a site is like when in the face of a determined troll too many rules are made and the mods are too zealous, you end up with Barbelith, and if you want to see what Barbelith was like, well you can't, I rest my case. And if you want to see what a country looks like when ambitious terrorism panics people into giving up freedom for security, look at America and ask if anyone feels secure now.

>>13203 The thing is I think im the minority here. Id love to give you solutions, but any solution I might give without careful consideration wouldn't be an inclusive one. I would love to tell you lets force ID's or that an altered version of a forum is superior, but thats ignoring why people come here. I'l try to get the ball rolling with things I think we need to respect about the chan as they are often the sources of coming here, even if they are just false ideals. >Anonymity Not just no ties to a real life identity, but no ties to any identity to remove popularity contests, and to focus purely on the ideas being discussed. Everyone has an equal platform to speak. I discussed why this isnt the case, but this decent ideal has to be preserved even if I dont like it. >Free discussion There are laws and rules so it can never be truly free, regardless chans come as close as possible. I hate racism, I hate the alt right, you could even call me an SJW, but even if I see no benefit to those topics thats assuming I am infalliable and I know im not. I can and have been wrong when I was sure I was right (I used to be fairly alt right as an example) therefore I could be wrong in the future even when im certain im not. Free discussion respects this falliability we all have, >Counter culture Many of us didnt fit in, chans are a relatively safe place to go against the mainstream and discuss "heretical" ideals. That links more to free discussion, but this is seperate because many of our reasons for coming here was just that we heard about this super crazy underdog site that was against the mainstream, and we were too. Chans have always been pretty punk rock, even if now its a skinhead type of punk. Now heres what we strive for under these ideals >Quality discussion and content I think everyone, even younger members of say 4chan, want this. Their bar for what is quality may be lower, but they would rather not have just mindless yelling all the time. The beauty of the free discussion is that sometimes mindless yelling creates quality content or discussion (herf derf feggits get off mah vidyur), so im not advocating for some super proper stiff dialogue. Just that on the other hand, calling somebody a nazi or snowflake for having x belief and making 50 assumptions about them isnt what anybody wants, and goes against the ideal of anonymity. >Longevity Simple enough, we don't want a fad. We want a stable environment that can adapt but keep its spirit, every internet community wants this if they feel its possible. Saying this isnt a goal would be me saying chans should die, so I have to say it is. These are I think what needs to be preserved, and im going to talk about the problems now, the nature of the problems is that they damage the goal of quality discussion and content, the ideals, and im going to include some social implications that are damaging as well. . Some of these may be unfixable with the above, so dont assume all of these im saying need to be remedied. >Tyranny of the majority The reason im on lainchan at all is that I cant really express my leftist views on all but a few boards of 4chan. I can of course and thats great, however quality discussion cant be had when ideas apart from the majority are not even acknowledged and instead are put down or drowned out. All of you should understand that 4chan, in the spirit of that counterculture, is birthed and given life by its willingness to harbor dissenting ideas that other sites and real life will not. The same principle should be true from within. This ones really complicated, I might try to give solutions in a later post but for now il just talk about what I think are objective problems with those goals in mind. >Harm Chans are often mobs, and current events along with close minded discussion, dehumanization, etc. Basically create a lynch mob. Some will argue this is an issue at all even and blame bad actors, and if that is really true then this wouldnt be a problem. So if you are one who doesnt feel like this, take this as a what if it was true. Chans are producing shooters and people causing harm to the outside. Much like when ISIS or Hamas or whoever parades their martyrs around, when some internet kid goesnout and runs people over or shoots up a church certain boards on certain chans are ectsatic and show praise and love often in a joking spirit but no less harmful. If you know this is true but just dont see it as an issue, we can at least say its a harm to longevity, but id also say that with the great ideal of free discussion comes a responsibility to express disagreement and controversial views without harm to others. Again a complicated one, where do we draw the line of harm? Im not talking about hate speech isnt free speech even, look at it more like how inciting a mob or riot with words is illegal in many places. Because chans especially those boards in a sort of a hugbox of ideas can often be a mob, when are we inciting them? How can we discuss controversial ideas in a way that makes them stay and get worked out within the realm of discussion. >Hyper aggresiveness and hostility To be honest my opinion is that ideally chans would have no unspoken rules, general ethos, norms and taboos. That works best for free discussion. In fact in such a case chans might even be mainstream, as they are easily accessible. Of course chans again are pretty punk rock, its always gonna be a certain crowd and some inaccesibility is a given. Still the sort of super aggressive mentality poses a problem, especially because again with anonymity you should just look at the things people type as anonymous words rather than deevolving the discussion by insulting their character or getting angry at "them". this is all I can think of for now. Im sure other people can do a much better job and bring up other issues and maybe even some ideals we must keep. But I hope this gets the ball rolling or makes someone think. I doubt anything will happen because of this discussion but I myself would like to know how I can advocate for better chan besides what I do currently which is just say get rid of it honestly.

>>13270 This government correlation is pointless because nothing correlates between a real world government and an anonymous forum, not only that but this metaphor is charged with enough baggage to derail a thread, since anyone who disagrees with your political assessments could reply to your political views instead of the subject at hand. This is the problem described in this thread and what makes lainchan a place unfit for most conversations in my point of view. >Lain has no quality issues at the moment, the rot hasn't spread here Sure, if a majority of users feel that way then i agree it's not a problem for the community itself, only for me. >>13273 While i agree with most of what you said, you're describing lainchan from a few years ago. As i tried to explain with this thread, this is no longer the case, "free discussion" is no longer possible when any thread could be derailed by innocent ignorance or intentional derailment for a perceived political motivation, as evidenced by any thread on this board that isn't about venting. My point is that the systems in place do not attempt to prevent derailment, and they should if the community is to improve.

>>13273 >I cant really express my leftists views on all but a few boards of 4chan It seems like the tide is turning against these views more and more on this site, though, to the point where you may not be able to discuss them if things get much worse. Do you agree with this assessment? >>13274 What would you say to the idea that it's primarily /hum/ that has the problem, rather than lainchan as a whole? Also, here's a practical idea: what if you put a list of "thread rules" at the bottom of an OP, containing rules like "no politics" or "don't ask questions about things you can google"? I imagine that the moderation staff would go to reasonable lengths to enforce them.

>>13274 Why is derailment even an issue? you can still keep on topic. It can coexist. Traffic is not high enough to flood your out of a thread.

>>13276 >What would you say to the idea that it's primarily /hum/ that has the problem, rather than lainchan as a whole? /hum/ due to it's nature has a higher frequency, but certainly isn't the only place where that is a problem. Any post that gives the possible indication of political affiliation will likely derail threads in any board. People get attached to the stereotype they've built in their head and argue against it. This is also true for divisive yet not purely political subjects like programming languages, security practices, drug usage, social issues in general, sexual practices and more. >Also, here's a practical idea: what if you put a list of "thread rules" at the bottom of an OP, containing rules like "no politics" or "don't ask questions about things you can google"? I don't believe that would work, since the people who derail threads don't view their posts as derailment, it's just how they view the world and isn't intended as harmful, sometimes people don't even view their opinions as divisive or political, as exemplified by: >>13270 Not only that but the issue is more of a bad faith vs good faith arguments than anything else, people can always dodge strict rules by being "almost-illegal" and thus immune to derezzment, as i mentioned here: >>13186 >>13277 Not really, what i mean by "derailed" is that the subject of the thread has shifted and most posts are about the derailed issue rather than the original thread. This thread for example hasn't been derailed, even if we had five or ten posts that could have derailed it. For example, if someone answered >>13270 sincerely and addressed his political views, others would join in to discuss his politics and defend or attack him, turning this into a politics thread. Me warning derailers that this thread should not be about whatever they're talking about and sometimes mods deleting these posts helped to keep this thread on track, what i'm arguing for is that this responsibility to keep posters on track and remind them what this thread is about shouldn't be on OPs, it should be explicit rules and a bannable offense. That way OP doesn't have to babysit everyone who posts in their threads and the community grows and learns to actually pay attention to the thread at hand, and without that we'll always be limited to discuss the basics of any mildly divisive subject, as exemplified by the feminism thread.

Imageboard culture is dead! Long live imageboard culture!

>>13276 Perhaps, maybe im optimistic but I personally like to believe we have an even balance and I simply notice the extreme right wing views more because I disagree with them. I also noticed people in this extreme tend to be more interested in arguing where others might give up.

I've noticed the same theme of exclusion for centrist politics. This happens in every open forum, on or off-line. Right wing mouthpieces will historically try to co-opt every community, every movement, every scene and then revise history for legitimacy, just like they did with Odinism, Nietzsche, the Skinhead movement, Punk, Cyberpunk, Pepe, Synthwave, and now imageboard culture. In our case, since their usual weapons of intimidation, abuse and harassment are prohibited by board rules, we are seeing a great deal of faux-polite sealioning and disingenuous loaded guided lines of questioning. Really, it's nothing left-wing partisans haven't been doing since Communism was invented, the alt-right and vanilla-right imageboard carpetbaggers are just so clumsy that you notice them when they do it. On the other hand, I don't think the SJW and BLM activists are self-aware enough to realise how much they're beginning to sound like their traditional enemies back when the paradigm was reversed and they weren't the status quo. Then again I don't think these kids are old enough to remember when their views were actually repressed and they could count on the police being on the other side and turning to violence first.

>>13284 Nobody can claim anything by themself as you can't prevent people using the same thing. The left willingly helps giving up the to the right. I.E. pepe was used for years by everyone until it got into public used against the left and thus was declared rightwing because that was their first exposure and they had zero knowledge about other usage at which point everyone got the order by media "don't use it, it belongs to the right now" - that's how they got their exclusive use and not by having the power to take it on their own. Nobody will declare toast rightwing as they use it themselves but they will happily give anything they don't care about to them. I can't express how much i hate this whole dynamic.

I hate how often the problem described in this thread is exemplified by the posts on it. At this point the world has just moved on and i'm no longer a part of this place. See y'all in another life, fuarrrkfaces.

>>13296 In a way that's just people voicing for "i don't think that's a problem"

We all know how chans have become meme war zones driven by politics tribalism. I just wanted a comfy place to talk.

>>13091 I ve watched this thread for many days and i want to add something because i think that OP isnt exactly honest What exactly do you mean by imageboard culture OP? you mention 2007 but if you look at the archives from that time that are online you ll find that /a/ for instance is pretty much the same.Is anime imageboard culture what you mean?Or lainchan culture because they are not the same.In the technology boards that i used to visit things have indeed changed (im thinking of g and tech) but not because of politics-its the spammers that have ruined them and the mods who think that its ok to advertise disc***d and believe that apple advertisment threads are top tier quality subjects.That of course drove all the original OPs out and left a wasteland behind.But that is not politics its just the things i mentioned in >>13137 I firmly believe that moderators are the ultimate drive that create whatever you call culture and they have the power to change the face of an imageboard overnight.4ch cans all the original mods and hires literally redditors?Well look at the state of the site today.I mentioned there are still small sites that retain an identity of their own even today.Do you want to elaborate (or someone else) what that culture is?Do you think is lainchan that have changed and doesnt accomodate you anymore?Or all imageboards? Because if i want a discussion about anime there are like 6 major boards i know that dont have even a word of politics.Lainchan is not politicized either. You get political responses only if you start political threads and i honestly dont think this is a problem.also here is the only place in the whole internet that i know of that when (rarely) a political thread will start you will get all kind of replies.Both from the left and the right.Do you know any other site that has not degenerated in an echo chamber? OK you say you dont want politics after a long workday you want some light discussion on your hobby.There are numerous boards that facilitate that even today without a single mention of anything other than the hobby itself. i think there is nothing wrong with imageboards except the big ones and even there not everything is lost and that original culture still exists,except in places that came later for other purposes [/blogpost]

>>13158 And yet you provide no evidence of your own. Frankly we should all reflect and be aware of what this kind of hot take does. To me it's like an ideological hit&run : leave a purely emotional replay that tries to disguise itself as "scientific fact", and then just disengage. It might not convince a lot of people, but the idea does get planted in our mind, and with enough repetition, it can become reality.

>>13365 im not disengaging its just off topic for this thread if you want well though replies i suggest you visit the feminist thread.There are excellent posts there for your consideration but im sure you will not bother because they disagree with you. How funny it is that you accuse me of sensationalism and emotionalism and yet everywhere i look online i see that coming from feminists. Like the wage gap.maximum sensationalism with no substance also >hot take this is not twitter or reddit

>>13369 I did participate in the feminism thread, and to be frank I was a bit disappointed that almost no one was willing to engage the OP's original point in good faith. I'm not saying I don't have an opinion on the subject, because of course I do. It's just that seeing the thread I was like "Oh neat, someone on lainchan wants to talk about feminisem, this should be interesting". But then most of the thread was filled with the same type of anti-feminist rethoric that you see on most user-run internet spaces. Maybe it was naive on my part to think that on lainchan, we could have an interseting discussion on feminism theory and how it ties in with leftist thought and practice in general, but instead it turne into the same old soykafflinging contest. Like another lainon said, I would have liked that lainons in that thread took the time to lurk and read about feminist theory, history and practice before commenting the same old unoriginal opinions that could have been expressed by your run-of-the-mill racist and sexist uncle cliché. So yeah, in that particular case I was hoping to discuss feminism theory from a leftist perspective (i don't like to go on "mainstream" feminist spaces because tey tend to focus on "woke" activism and not theory) and was disappointed to see the thread not rise above the level of the average reddit or 4chan post on the subject.

>>13091 Time. It cannot stagnate to this degree forever, entropy forbids it. As some point, the culture will progress and aspects of it will go and some aspects will remain: >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesis,_antithesis,_synthesis

>>13098 We must go deeper. The secret is to keep is secret and access to it esoteric.

Not sure if this the right board, feel free to move. I hear a lot of talk accross the wired about how imageboards and "chan culture" are dying. Evidently, we are a species from a bygone era, doomed to be left behind in the name of Progress, that of course meaning endless centralisation of the internet towards the palms of megacorps and governments. However I think this analysis is lacking somewhat, the metanarrative is overly simplistic and ignores the possibilty of ground-up change. So my question is this: If imageboards are in fact dying as a medium, should we just let it happen? Is it just the natural process that cultures die out and are replaced with the Next Big Thing? If so, what do you think will come next, after imageboards, some improved method of wired communication outside of the realms of megacorp glitterboyry? What can we do to help kill the botnet, without aimlessly clinging to our past glory days? Essentially, how do we build The Next?

Communities just might get smaller (maybe therefore more focused), which could be a good thing. Re-embrace elitism.

>>13371 Out of curiosity, do semi-popular image boards with primarily leftist users exist? >>13098 SEL warned us that this would happen. The barrier between the "real world" and the Wired was always going to crumble, because there was never a hard distinction between the two anyway. I thought it would be more fun and less soul-crushing, though. However, >>13373 has a point. I don't think we can tunnel forever, though.

>>13374 I think that the "death of imageboards" is merely a point reaching the end of a bell curve, with 1998 as the beginning, where textboards were the norm, and people just gaining enough bandwidth to load in images quickly. This curve quickly and exponentially grew, until the zenith of imageboards(this point is contested, but seems to have occured around 2012 in overall influence over the general content of the internet, and in 2016 in terms of active visitors, think pol, "electionfigs" and redditors in search of an ark to plunder for upboats). We're nearing the end of the influence curve, and the population keeps ticking up. I still do enjoy these smaller boards, where I can feel like I was still at the beginning of both curves, but I'm not fooling myself. I'd bet my life savings on the fact that the majority of 4chan users--despite what they may claim--visit other websites, whether it's reddit, twitter or that camera mask app my friends use. I don't like to be "le ebin oldfig" but I remember when people spent the majority of their time spread across xfire, irc a handfull of imageboards and PHPBB forums. I think that this wide variety of circles allowed diversity of thought, with tiny websites of 16 people talking about everything from modding a wii to running a country. Nowadays, most of the 4chan users have either stayed behind(doubtful), gone to another *chan(myself), or something else(I don't know discord?). But I think that the people are still there, we didn't just leave the internet, we moved on from these small forums, they shut their doors, and the next generation, I assume was unwilling to start a new site, and settled for a site like reddit. However the brief encounters with reddit I've had haven't been too uplifiting. I remember the feeling of the half-life modding forum from 2007 I was part of being much like a campfire with friends coming and going. Reddit feels like a high-school cafeteria, with more niche hobbies being near ghost towns with no sembelance of community, and larger ones being like a massive cluster of yelling mouths, each one saying something slightly varied from the last, but fitting best with the term "insider trade". I'm sorry I spouted all of that, but I'm just frusturated about losing a sense of community that made me want to come back to a forum, no matter the topic. Bonus: Maybe the reason sites like reddit are so unappealing is because there is no off-topic posting, nobody knows each other, and furthermore, the mass of voices trying to be heard are too hard to hear over each other, there are no real "inside jokes", no personalities, no discussions of belief, just a very simplistic discussion. You don't have a name, you don't have a signature, rather than talking to a friend through a computer, you are simply talking to the computer.

>>13376 >I don't think we can tunnel forever, though. What seems to work for hacker groups on a certain Allium routing network, is a display of prerequisite knowledge. The level of knowledge, perhaps, could pertain to the depth to which one may traverse.

>>13379 >Maybe the reason sites like reddit are so unappealing is because there is no off-topic posting What? Reddit is 90% derailed already in top comment. The trouble with popular places with a voting system like reddit is they all get subverted and rigged. Companies have their social media guys running subreddits to keep negative news away while simultaneous buying votes with bots for their own viral marketing to bring their messages to front page. The only escape is seeking refugee in small places.

>>13383 I meant off topic in terms of a more personal means, like discussing an entirely different philosophy, reddit does not allow this because you will have your opinion discarded if it doesn't conform. As well as this, reddit doesn't really greentext about their personal lives. P.s. I decided to check reddit, and you are correct about the companies pushing their own motives, I decided to check a reddit about a children's entertainment company (marvel) and it seemed that they mostly pushed vapid bullsoykaf like "look at these cute corporation themed products I spent my hard earned adult money on"

>>13384 Google buying votes / accounts - it's openly advertised. This has been ongoing for years and some people made documentations about buying and rigging their own threads to showcase the problem. There's also interesting talk from small companies having trouble and getting their threads derezzed while big corps run their ads. Can't tolerate competition i guess.

>>13385 god, I've stumbled upon a very disturbing site indeed. I'd hate to look forward to coming home everyday and unknowingly reading posts by a robot to buy more merchendise

>>13384 >children's entertainment company i like you All sites with a voting system are begging to be taken over by anyone with time and money If you have seen imageboards and forums reddit seems like a huge compromise because its images and votes you see first and then the discussion Everything degenarates in a contest of who will post the nicest picture.A knife subforum?I win if i post a pic of my 100 collectors knifes etc.I tried to use it out of curiosity;of course with a filter because otherwise its just spam and after a couple weeks i left never to look back.Its also funny how fallen imageboards begin to resemble it eg. in most boards there is nothing but discussion about [current thing] spammed endlessly.Yea thats just the users-nothing to see here guys-move along. sry for off topic

>>13371 i get your point that you want to discuss something from a different perspective but you are wrong about the other thread sure there were cliche replies but there were a lot good ones that nobody replied and ignored them just like you do.You focuss on some trolls and ignore all the decent replies so you can play the victim instead of defending your positions against serious discussion.That is why i dont take you seriously;you are not here to discuss-you are here to preach.

>>13376 >Out of curiosity, do semi-popular image boards with primarily leftist users exist? There was this anarchist imageboard, 0chan i think, but it's dead now. But i guess cyberpunk boards tend to be receptive to leftist thought.

>>13396 >here was this anarchist imageboard, 0chan i think, but it's dead now. Yeah! What even happened to 0chan? I tried finding it a year or so ago but never found it back, assumed I was wrong with the name and gave up looking.

>>13391 I think the main reason that sites like 4chan and reddit deteriorate is due to the "broken window effect", in which a hypothetical situation is proposed: Imagine a pristine brick building with large windows, now imagine by some circumstance a window breaks, this signals that the building is no longer maintained, and therefore it can be vandalized. A simple graffiti tag is made on the building, and suddenly, a multitude of others appear throughout the year, because other artists feel it acceptable to vandalize a building that was already vandalized. Similar signaling occurs on board-type sites where the black sheep of the board make low-quality posts, making passers-by feel it acceptable to soykafpost as well, overall lowering the quality of the site until nobody wants to visit anymore.

>>13398 n1x(the admin) pulled the plug for various reasons.

All i have to say about this whole thing is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujPzvylY1GA

Everything is as it should be. How many times has your favorite (((thing))) gone to soykaf? I suspect you are suffering from ennui. I shall end with a cliché: the only constant is change.

>>13409

>>13410 op is whining about how beat poetry used to be cooler than it is now. time to do something else OP. Every generation time immemorial has decried the loss of the "values" of their generation.

>>13408 For a single song, this post is surprisingly dense.

>>13409 >(((thing))) Are you implying something connected with a Jewish conspiracy, or was that just for emphasis?

>>13411 You're missing the point presented for the characterization you've made into your own head; instead of reading what was said, you created a caricature of it and is now responding to it, the problem discussed in this thread. and now you'll deflect, saying that you actually understood everything but [deflection], and we'll spend 50 posts discussing semantics because the level of discussion in this community is limited to this type of pathetic lazy exchange that exemplifies the point raised in this thread.

>>13437 This answer again.. Nobody can understand OP and all resort to strawman arguments. I though it was only me but seems like OP cant communicate his message clearly as evidenced by all the answers so maybe its OPs problem and he should make more effort for clarity.I get that people mumbling about politics are an example but why >>13411 is? At any rate if you want good imageboards they still exist and lainchan has its own culture/climate that puts it on its own league apart from other imageboards so maybe the thread should be lainchan changing?idk.For anyone interested that is new there are thousands of text posts archived from various imgboards and you can judge for yourselves how they have changed overtime and what constitutes the "Original Culture" For some mysterious reason however i think that OP is not reminiscent of everybody calling everybody a glitterboy.

>>13437 >discussing semantics because the level of discussion in this community is limited to being able to communicate your message clearly is important and semantics too regardless of the place,discussion and participants insulting everybody that they "just dont get it" because they dont share your point of view is the fastest way to turn a discussion in to a flame war What do you want?Some lainons showing up and start saying ohh yeah OP those were the days and post screncaps of epic threads? Learn to articulate your thought properly and stop throwing temper tantrums over people missunderstanding you If at the firsts posts getting political OP had intervened and clarify all that would have been avoided instead OP got political too and started calling people incels.

>>13493 >>13492 You're raising a previously discussed point as if it was new, limited to this thread or limited to this discussion. None of which are true, and have been explained multiple times by multiple people in the last 20 posts. This is what a discussion that doesn't raise itself above the level of semantics means, semantics are important in a healthy discussion and shouldn't be used as a clutch to feel good on the internet. One step forward, three steps backwards. This is the problem discussed, and, as previously mentioned, this thread is fairly healthy in comparison to the other threads across all boards, specially /hum/. This problem being prevalent in any thread in any board is the problem being discussed here. As multiple people, across multiple posts, have said multiple times. And multiple times posts have been deleted when out of place because someone cared enough about it then to remind people to stay on subject. Now nobody does, because this is tiresome, as was explained in this thread, multiple times, by multiple people. Let's put it this way, imagine this is a thread about lainchan color palette. You're asking "What's blue? if you don't explain what's blue how do you expect us to discuss this palette thing?", and that's fine. But five posts later, someone else asks "hey, what is yellow? palette? what are you talking about, is this some commy talk?". In fact, i think this structure of example has been used before in this thread. Multiple times. By multiple people.

Imageboard culture was created by young people. Young people stopped using imageboards because they're old now so imageboard culture died. You can't go back, OP. Of course, there are places on the internet where youth culture thrives but you should stay away from them. You're old, you'd ruined them for those kids, just like the old people ruined imageboards for you.

>>13521 Where do young new subcultures exist if any?Do they use the internet?I would like to take a peek if you know Do any new subcultures exist at all?even offline? I remember back in the 80s~90s there was a wave of underground punk in my country that used to self publish their albums in cassetes.The sound and lyrics were so far from anything mainstream that i was at a loss for words.I collect them to this day.Gradually they disappeared but noone took their place except for some trash pseudowoke pozers with songs that have less soul and pain that a rock. Anyway i d love to see anything if any lainon knows

>>13539 In the early days, the internet was way more decentralized and so there were places for the subcultures to develop. But that's because the web consisted of many small websites, which were basically like isolated tribes, which were spread out all over the web. Sometimes they had contact with each other, sometimes they made war, but there was always this thin layer of separation that allowed for the subcultures to remain their own. Nowadays people are bunched up together on all these big social networks. It's like they have been put together into one big basket and shaken up. And in such situation entropy takes over and smoothens things up. Just like two gases of different temperature mixed together reach an equilibrium after a while, so does the culture. Since all these young and creative people are not part of any small semi-closed community, but instead are part of one big overarching internet master-community, so is their culture - a single big overarching internet master-culture... of maximum entropy. Ironically - if you put too many creative people into one place, you will lose creativity in the process. You should read the book called The Greatest Show On Earth from Richard Dawkins. It's about biological evolution, not cultural evolution, but I'm pretty sure that all the same basic principles apply. > For species to differentiate, genes need to be separated from their ancestors long enough to evolve. On the hypothetical landmass, an animal that could walk from one end of the continent to the other, would stop evolution since genes would be swapped constantly from the ancestors and offspring. >>13091 I completely agree with your post OP. The imageboards have been hijacked by a certain ideological group for the purpose of political propaganda. The days when imageboards were about fun and inside jokes are long gone. Nowadays they are all about politics. But that's not only true of imageboards, but young people as a whole as well. Imageboards can't be any different when their main userbase is only interested in politics. Few months back I wrote a similar post to yours on my personal blog, but it is written in very poor english and there are many typos (which I'm too lazy to fix), so I don't think that I'm going to post link. It basically said the very same thing as your post anyway.

>>13548 >The days when imageboards were about fun and inside jokes are long gone. Nowadays they are all about politics. But that's not only true of imageboards, but young people as a whole as well. Imageboards can't be any different when their main userbase is only interested in politics. This state of things is sad and the problem isn't solely restricted to image boards, internet as a whole has become a war zone where users use irony to mask their radical beliefs. This new style of political propaganda on the internet is disgusting, people is literally throwing feces at each other and the basis of ideology arises from something as vain as a meme. Internet was supposed to surpass traditional media due to the freedom it gives to the user but at the end the same defects appeared: userbase is trapped inside the "meme reality" that acts as an echo chamber to reinforce the same propaganda.

>>13548 >Since all these young and creative people are not part of any small semi-closed community, but instead are part of one big overarching internet master-community, so is their culture - a single big overarching internet master-culture... of maximum entropy. >Ironically - if you put too many creative people into one place, you will lose creativity in the process. I can't add much else, except that I've observed this exact thing and completely agree with you. That biological-cultural evolution parallel is fascinating as well.

>>13548 >>13555 Applied statistics. Sum of independent distributions turns into a normal distribution.

>>13553 The propaganda is rooted not in the net but the education system & media. The people bring with them what they get ingrained. A strong counter culture can also only exist in face of a strong presence to oppose. The net was free of such fights as long as most people weren't part of it and outliers of society were keeping to themselves. Now that everyone is here it's getting policed as much as any other media source to control popular opinion. The outliers continue to exist on a deeper layer while the average tech illiterate user will live in their walled garden with filters on what they get to see.

>>13539 >Where do young new subcultures exist if any? We'd have to agree on a definition of the word. People on imageboards tell me that a new style of music that comes with a certain graphic aesthetic is a legitimate "subculture" but there is nothing else to it than aesthetic. New agers, zoot suiters, the hippies, punks, Nazi skinheads, these were subcultures with a distinct set of political or spiritual ideals and specific lifestyles. Having different music on your phone and different desktop backgrounds on your laptop don't really qualify if nothing else about your life is different from the next person on the bus. I don't know what new youth cultures even exist in the first world. In the developing world where people are leapfrogging from no more technology than what our own grandparents had to suddenly having smartphones, I'm sure something new exists.

>>13575 I feel like the youth of today belong not to true sub-cultures, but ratjer to consumer "sub-cultures" like hipsters. So they derive their identity from consumer choices (which brand to choose from, contributing to brand wars, etc.). But I think you're righr in saying that most of the people today simply limit to aesthetics. It's all shalow and superficial.

>>13575 Transfeminine communities form a genuine subculture. Shared politics, aesthetics, fashion, expressions, language, media. Also, a shared commitment to what is essentially biomodding, the feminisation of the body through hormone treatments. Thinking about it, it sounds like something straight out of a Gibson story.

>>13579 Striped stockings seems to be their secret uniform. I just realized, I unconsciously and automatically define subculture by what music they listen to, assuming the other stuff comes later. I know this isn't always the case but in my head, that's how I categorize these phenomena for some reason.

>>13580 Womens clothing in general would be their "secret" uniform, they aren't being very subtle when they wear them in public though, hell they aren't even subtle when they post them online pretending to be female.

>>13582 Naw, the striped stockings are definitely a thing, like old codes involving coloured bandanas at gay clubs, or which side you have an earring in, neither of which are used anymore. Dressing female is just something they hope to do convincingly.

>>13583 I didn't mean to imply that they weren't, I was just saying that them dressing up in womens clothing is their kind of thing as well.

>>13579 More than just that, much of the transgender communities also have other really close communities that are sometimes overlapping. You've got otherkin, and furries, which everyone has heard of by now, but overlap a great amount. Within the group itself you have nonbinary communities where neopronouns are more common, as well as transmed/trutrans which are generally viewed as traitors by trans communities. There's also various communities that traumagenic and endogenic systems tend to interact in, which have tons of overlap with trans communities, as well as their own infighting. I think it's neat that there seem to be more subcultures with the left than the right. Possibly because they tend to focus more on identity and individuality, whereas the right tends to care less about that sort of thing.

>>13579 It could actually be pretty cool if they weren't such users about everything.

>>13091 >Imageboard culture is dead It's evolving

>>13592 You're asking for too much from them.

>>13575 You make it sound like a sub-culture is defined by an interest and verified by meeting up in person. Then chans would be no culture at all. I got your point though. >>13379 has an interesting point. People always used different sites with different communities in the past, but now it's much more connected and overlapping. For some reason, people seem to care more about other opinons than in the past, in a bad way. The amount of internet users multiplied over the past 10 years. People using phones to make low effort posts with maximum impact are the norm now. There are many new people coming to the internet with different expectations and some swap over to chans. The internet used to be an escape, now I want to escape the internet. I think it all comes down to big companies and important people joining the internet to their advantages for more influence and money, that's where fun is not welcome anymore. But we should realize that we have more influence on what we see on the internet than one might expect. It's another path to isolation from the daily noise. Chan culture is still alive, we don't need to keep up old memes, but the spirit to create new memories.

>>13781 > You make it sound like a sub-culture is defined by an interest and verified by meeting up in person. I was implying that but not insisting on it. That's what I meant when I said we'd need a clearer definition. > Then chans would be no culture at all. eh OK... imageboards in their entirety make up a subculture perhaps, or they did a few years ago. Much of the lingo has been absorbed by the mainstream now but that's happened with every youth culture that reached a certain size in the past.

>>13782 It's harder to define than I expected. Looking up a defintion. 「A subculture is a group of people within a culture that differentiates itself from the parent culture to which it belongs, often maintaining some of its founding principles. Subcultures develop their own norms and values regarding cultural, political and sexual matters. Subcultures are part of society while keeping their specific characteristics intact.」 Therefore, lainchan is its own subculture on the chan spectrum. On a different note that has been discussed earlier, the lack of new sub-cultures probably also comes from the fact that it's easier to click "like" on something at home than meeting up with the people that you share interests with.

>>13783 >the lack of new sub-cultures probably also comes from the fact that it's easier to click "like" on something at home than meeting up with the people that you share interests with. I heard a story on a podcast this week where the host saw a 16 year old girl in some city in Scandinavia dressed like a Polaroid of a Rush fan from the 70s, complete with the band t-shirt, haircut and fringe leather coat. Her parents weren't even her age yet when that was current. The majority of youth culture I see online or on the street is like this. It's a reproduction of something that already had its time. In the past, countercultures believed they were either destroying the trend that came before them or at least defying the mainstream. Now?

>>13787 Yeah thats what im seeing too But i would be very hesitant to call it sub-culture,it resembles fashion more.Always taking ideas from the past(I wonder how much that leather coat costs) My personal theory is that the forces that were behind the creation of various subcultures ie a sense of not belonging to the norm have been hijacked (dont forget how advanced marketing has become) and instead of driving people away from the mainstream they are now used to pull them in and cash in on that feelings by making them buy whatever they are selling. Just like the japs used to sell animu figurines to lonely otakus whereas the same demographic in some other poor country might have developed an underground music scene to funnel their feelings. The marketing in the current age doesnt leave literally anything to be desired; no matter your tastes and views there is a product for you! However that creates what we are seeing today:everything is commercialized,superficial and with an agenda; no soul no love and not truly original. Thanks for reading my blog

>>13789 >Thanks for reading my blog Speaking of superficiality, you should feel no reason to essentially apologize for writing a post as short as yours. This is what we're here for, Lain. Thank you for posting.

>>13789 >However that creates what we are seeing today:everything is commercialized,superficial and with an agenda; no soul no love and not truly original. some things have soul. They're just not very visible. There is a constant war for our attention and the things that are really genuine don't have advanced marketing tactics to get our attention. It's possible to see them, and hear them, if you look. One has to consciously avoid the attention-seeking things. There are active underground music scenes that put out music on bandcamp, if you want a place to start looking. Start paying special attention to all the weird people you see around you. Start reading flyers, go to anything that interests you. Don't be afraid.

>>13792 Thanks for recommending bandcamp it seems promising >go to anything that interests you I m far too old to get personally involved in any scene i was just pondering on their existence as i rembered them. In my 20's however all the "weird" people in my country became heavily politicized which i hated extremely and that was when i stopped bothering.Essentially all the victim mentality and the blaming of others which i find appalling.In some cases they were right, but the scene i rememberd was more about the personal experience and the sharing of the common feelings not the rantings about this or that.

>>13799 well, if you mean "punk" and similar things yeah it got pigeonholed and commodified, punk is an aesthetic people buy now it's long gone. It's always been political though. Not "get out and vote!" political like it is now but arguably even more radical and extreme. This is speaking of the US, I don't know about your country :) When I say "weird people" I meant like, hobos and their like. They know many things that are hidden to us home-dwellers.

>>13792 > Start reading flyers Sigh. No one puts them up anymore. If I ever do see one it's always for something that happened last week. There isn't even a single online place to look for events listings here. The one website that tried gave up when no one used the service, then folded the rest of their operation a couple of months later. FB has consumed everything in my area. Setting up an alternative requires the participation of people who don't care and who write off our criticisms as whining. It's hopeless.

>>13363 > hires literally redditors? Are you implying that mods using reddit is the sole reason why 4chan is soykaf?

>>13799 You're never really old. I was in the anarchist-squat scene in my country in my early 20s. I tried to lead a normal life after 25 but then I decided it was not for me. So I returned and found lots of people even older than me, and even more important with more of a make than philosophy mentality. If there's not a scene create one yourself. We have an anarcho-queer-hackerspace in a squat right now, and we have some 20 projects and people working on them from distributed networks to solar energy etc. Young is fine old is good as well. Don't say you can't do things because of age -- then I threw away my most productive years to silly ideas and doing nothing and I shouldn't be doing anything now that I can. What I see is many people want scenes to be reborn but then if noone creates them they'll never come back. From music, to hacking groups, to whatever you want to share. Please go out there and do it, physical contact is so important for sharing. The wired is good but take things in the meatspace as well.

>>15443 Different Lain here... you can't imagine how much time and energy I devoted to creating real world happenings. Just putting the effort in isn't enough sometimes. Sometimes other factors are against you, or other people just aren't interested for longer than a weekend. I simply don't have the energy for it anymore and feel like what local culture we have here has been running on a treadmill for ten years. It bores me now, it stimulates some other people just fine, and they are doing perfectly well without my help so I just stay home these days.

>>15444 Sometimes it's just not for you anymore and it's cool. But at least you can try that was my point. Luck is always a factor but at least it's kinda fair.

>>15443 God, I'm jealous of this space you're describing. Wish I could find something like that. I have a small-ish group that is trying, though. We're thinking about making a commune of some kind. Hopefully it goes well, but it's an intimidating amount of work. We'll press forward.

>>15447 Don't be really jealous because it's not all roses. We have broke down and restarted more than 5 times and there is always so much grinding involved. Police issues are plaguing us as well. The good thing is that there is a core of 3-4 people that really love this and give the space a lot of energy so other people join and create things. It's a hard work but the hardest thing in life is to have fun!

>>15450 Love it. Thanks for the reality dose. Yeah I think we have that core of 3-4 as well, maybe I should be looking at this like it might be the halcyon days right now. Sorry about the police issues. That's always a bother.

>>13198 You're getting way to upset about this man, come on now.