Lainchan and programming ruined my life

>do bad in an intro to Java course >have complete programming existential crisis >major in math because failed out computer science >try to learn programming from c to lisp to haskell to python >can't >so mentally fuarrrked that seeing a blank text editor or ide causes panic attack >reading that same introductory drivel on how to make an if statement or what an integer is just reinforces self hate >graduate math >go to grad school >try to avoid it but I'm expected to pick up minor programming for a masters >talk with advisor tell him I really can't do this >he says if course I can because : >programming >is >literally >math >and I have such an intense interest in algebra and computer science theory >take the class >fail it >fail it every year >can't graduate have to stay longer >talk with advisor >he's confused but says they're willing to waive it considering all my other work in math >graduate with math masters >GPA is soykaf though >enter massive depression that affects math skills >don>do bad in an intro to Java course >have complete programming existential crisis >major in math because failed out computer science >try to learn programming from c to lisp to haskell to python >can't >so mentally fuarrrked that seeing a blank text editor or ide causes panic attack >reading that same introductory drivel on how to make an if statement or what an integer is just reinforces self hate >graduate math >go to grad school >try to avoid it but I'm expected to pick up minor programming for a masters >talk with advisor tell him I really can't do this >he says if course I can because : >programming >is >literally >math >and I have such an intense interest in algebra and computer science theory >take the class >fail it >fail it every year >can't graduate have to stay longer >talk with advisor >he's confused but says they're willing to waive it considering all my other work in math >graduate with math masters >GPA is soykaf though >enter massive depression that affects math skills >don't do phd >just live at home as a neet loser Not everyone can learn ito phd >just live at home as a neet loser Not everyone can learn it. I just feel worthless in this modern age

It is sad that today mathematicians and physicists are expected to be programmers as a side job instead of focusing on their main passion. I mean, it is a benefit for them, but to expect it from them really is buckling down the weight of what academia can give in my honest opinion. Not to mention that you're wasting precious intelligence resources on something a basic engineer can do. Now let's get to OPs story. OP, as much as I feel bad for you and what happened to you, you can't turn around and blame anyone for anything. That is losing mentality that will always drive only yourself down and keep you there because ultimately you can always blame someone for something bad in your life. Instead of being sad or angry for the past try to be humble and thankful for the experience, derive a useful life lesson from it and find a life goal that goes alongside your life, whether that be continuing in maths or just going to be a sheep herder. I wish you good luck seeing how you will need it since you are having a personal life crisis of some sort and it all happens in apex of struggle in blink of an eye and subconscious decision that you can't even prepare yourself for or pre-process that kind of decision beforehand and think about it.

>>12684 Lainchan didn't ruin anything. You are not dead or sick. You have a maths degree, you can get employment as a technical analyst or a variety of other jobs which require mathematics but not programming. I suggest you focus on resolving your depression and your self talk.

>>12693 Really not an option. >>12689 What do I do

Anon, it doesn't sound like you're incapable of programming at all, just scared. I'm not sure if this will help at all, but if you still want to learn it to regain your self confidence, there are a couple things you could try. First, since introductory reading scares you so much, you could try just jumping into it. Download Python and just do something fun or interesting with it. You can learn by doing. Also, you don't need to read programming books so intently. If you encounter something you already know, just skim it and skip the exercises! If it seems like you missed something you can always go back. You can even jump around if you're stuck. Second, I would recommend going to a therapist if that doesn't help. You may need some outside assistance. Don't lose faith. I always did bad in school and was a bad programmer and I turned it around. You can do it too!

>>12727 >what do I do

>i can't code give examples please where you fail

It was the other way around with me, was total soykaf at maths but okay at programming. I felt like a total loser having to relearn even the most basic math things recently but found out one just has to spend lots of time practicing, no matter how stupid he feels. Other than that I'd recommend a healthier lifestyle. I know how horrible it feels to be worrying about one thing all day. Go out and arrange things that you haven't tried yet. Avoid feed-type website habits. Change up your habitat, I don't know. As for actually learning programming, there's lots of different approaches. I learned programming using youtube videos at first and picked up a textbook later on. Best of luck and don't worry too much!

>>12732 There's nothing I want to make. I loathe python

>>12740 I'm sure you use computer programs every day, is there nothing practical you'd be interested in making?

>>12772 Quoted the wrong post >>12744

>>12772 Not really. I become more anti technology everyday

>>12684 If you can do well in a maths graduate program then you are absolutely capable of this. You need to see a therapist. It sounds to me like you have some deeply internalized self-hate that's holding you back. That said, I'm just an internet stranger so what the fuarrrk do I know.

>>12800 Read once an interesting article from a recruiter that suggested somewhat 20% really can't into coding. Examples given were elementary issues as keeping track of variable assignments you wouldn't even believe a day 2 beginner to make despite the people involved working for months on learning coding. Was pretty wild and hard to believe. That's why I asked OP for examples >>12734 but sadly got none so far.

>>12812 But OP stated that he is good a math so I assume that he is able to understend mathematical proofs where you also have to know what variable holds what. Also add to this fields like computation theory (turing machine and lambda calculus) and you are very close to programing. To me it also sound lile OP has soma personal problem and should see the therapist.

>>12817 Those people passed their math classes too. I mean they all graduated high school to enter university at the minimum. That's why i found it so wild - it's incomprehensible how these mistakes could happen. Personally questioned if these reports were true due to that and wanted an example from OP to see if i could find a real example. Might be some dyslexia - it's possible to have it in one language but not the other and coding is another language.

>>12822 OK, thats interesting. I assumed that those 20% were lousy at math and science and that is why they couldn't learn how to code. If you have a link to that article then I would be grateful for a link (if not I will try to find it in my free time).

>>12835 I tried to find it again immediately after i saw OP's post but failed. Author gave a long list of coding examples and mistakes made which makes it stand out from all the "people can't code" rant posts i could find now looking for it.

>>12798 as a fellow luddite, i sympathize. but in order to avoid technology well, you must understand it. could it be that your introductory courses into computer programming were poorly taught? i have found many courses on computer programming are taught very poorly. one course in computer programming i have thoroughly enjoyed is Donald Knuth's The Art of Computer Programming. even if you won't do any programming ever, it's a nice read so that you can better understand programs, reason about what they do, how they do it, how expensive they are.

Could it be something about the way that you're learning? I fuarrrked up and failed an online intro to Python course several years ago. I refused to have anything to do with it, but eventually I signed up for an in-person class and now I'm really enjoying it and doing well. Maybe you'd benefit from an online class or alternative method of learning.

>>12684 Programming has almost NOTHING to do with math. This is all bullsoykaf that they are saying. I can't do math and i'm good at programming and i have super math friend who is like kicking dead whales down the beach at programming. Stop this bullsoykaf. programming has nothing to do with math. Unless you are doing weird graphical/physics soykaf.

>>12684 You are completely responsible for your own life and you are the only person in this world who could ruin it. This is a good thing and a bad thing. Why not just get some kind of manual labor job where you don't have to think too much?

>>13650 >Programming has almost NOTHING to do with math. I think there's a general overlap in cognitive abilities which tends to make people naturally good at both or neither but yes I agree, almost all kinds of software development involves almost no kinds of math. >>12684 What's behind this premise that you *have* to do something computer related? Why don't you rake in shekels at a hedge fund or something like all the other math majors?

>>13650 Just wanted to state that while you might be right in the general sense, certain subsets of programming do try and align themselves quite closely to math. A few functional languages (OCaml, Coq kind of lies on the border between programming language and proof tool) attempt to bridge the gap between formal logic and programming. I had them introduced to me in the past as an extension of the constructivist view of thought, where a program in OCaml (due to the restrictions the language imposes) is simultaneously a proof of the thing being programmed. Not trying to say this opinion is the truth and the light or anything, just thought it was an interesting perspective. Useful links: https://www.cs.cornell.edu/courses/cs3110/2014fa/lectures/19/lec19.pdf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructivism_(philosophy_of_mathematics)

>>13650 In a theoretical sense, programming is a form of math. The foundations of computing were laid down by mathematicians, all the first programmers were mathematicians, and all the first programming languages were designed specifically for doing math. While mathematical proofs tend to be a little more freeform, they are essentially the same structurally as programs. Mathematicians and programmers essentially do the same things with their brains. If when you think "math" you mean "arithmetic and algebra and trigonometry and calculus", that is not what people mean when they say that math and programming are closely related. The math you learn in, say, high school or an engineering degree is nothing like higher math.

>>13683 Programming is for the most part closer to plumbing. 90% stick pipes together someone else made without knowing the slightest bit about the production process of those pipes. The heavy lifting in algorithm design is made by other people just like no plumber creates his own pipes. And even if you do algorithm design. You will do the math on paper and the coding itself will be again merely grunt work.

>>13716 If you consider programming "grunt work" and math not, you may have it mixed up. Almost anything worth doing in math involves tons of grunt work.

>>13717 I find programming way more frustrating because you have to constantly look up api's / implementations. You are ultimately at the mercy of others and if they fuarrrk up you have always end with plenty wasted hours trying to fix it because generally you first try to find it in your own code. With math you do have to go trough some boring motions repeatedly but you don't waste days in frustration because you have to relearn math every month because everyone redefines it and you have to accustom to their definitions.

>>13718 you my friend, have never tried to prove anything nontrivial

>>13720 define difficult i took a double major in cs/math and so far always found coding the most tedious part. You don't experience frustration in math as for example finding out after 2 weeks the new patch deleted a function call in their api and you gotta redo everything due to this until the next patch fixes it again.

>>13721 you don't prove anything nontrivial when you do a math degree. Most people aren't expected to do that until they're in grad school. Maybe like the proof of classification of modules over a PID? If I remember correctly that takes a long ass time and has lots of tedious lemmas.

>>13722 like, imagine doing that without reading it out of a book. Some people, really smart talented people, literally spend years working on math problems and make no progress whatsoever.

>>13724 Personally i find being stuck on a problem yourself more tolerable than being stuck because someone else made a mistake and you can neither fix it yourself nor progress further without them. And i think that's the core issue - not that it's tedious but whether your only limit is yourself or whether you are held back by other people and have no option to avoid them.

>>12838 Is it this? http://eis.mdx.ac.uk/research/PhDArea/saeed/paper1.pdf

abe is a motherfucker

Finally someone like me. How can i come to terms with the fact Im just slow? What can I even do? I wish people would stop lying and sayinf anyone can program

>>14983 I used to think I was slow for some things, and after a lot of time I realized I wasn't. Don't force yourself to code and that's that. I always say that not everyone can program, and it's not the end of the world. You still have no excuse to be technologically illiterate. You should know how things work and the logic behind it, but being able to pull abstract working structures out of thin air it's not to be taken for granted.

>>13725 This poster is right It's a pity though that you came across so much problems, but it is true that programming you are at the mercy of a lot of things, but that's how life is for most jobs to be honest

>>12812 >pretty wild and hard to believe It should not be assumed that everyone can create a complex working environment in their heads. I read a good post/article about the author's encounter with people who convinced him that not everyone is capable of conditional and abstract thinking. He pointed out specially to people failing to understand the concept of "inclusion" without doing a full enumeration of contents (eg Canada by law includes its territorial waters, so people had trouble with that and thought it meant all of Canada is only the waters) It was too long, but it was a good read, not because the conclusion that not everyone has the same cognitive potential was groundbreaking, but just to listen to his experiences

>>16024 I had the inverse experience from OP. In university I failed every single math course (even Calculus 1) and only managed to get my degree because I did well in every CS course. I just cannot do math (dyslexic), yet I am fantastic when it comes to solving problems.

>>14983 Nonsense, you just find better things to do. If you wanted to program you would learn it easily, having an advntage by hanging out in sites like this one. Give yourself the motivation to prioritize learning the stuff and applying it over whatever is taking the time you would invest on programming.

>>12727 >Really not an option Shut up pussy, go to a shrink

>>13716 Ni.ga. It's spacial high level math with propagating logic and discrete states. If you just wire up a network of chunked math functions in your head up and then on the computer. You sound like you have only used JavaScript, or are too lazy to implement your own things and/or ideas. Unless you are using R mostly or some soykaf like that. Certain languages are soykaf but this is definitely not a good summary.

>>16023 What do you mean by tech illiterate

>>16055 not knowing anything about how technology works Even if the art of creating working software is out of your reach, you should at least understand the workings behind it. Read about basic physics, electricity, electronics, the binary system, logic gates, memory, processor architecture, computer architecture, logic, assembly, programming languages/paradigms and tools, how peripherals work, networking, TCP protocol, what is a router/switch/server, crypto etc I wouldn't be able to design an electric motor, I don't think I ever even knew the equations behind its working, but I know how the story goes (from electrical potential to magnetic induction and the mechanics). That doesn't make me an engineer but I like knowing how it works, how to take care of it and repair one. I don't know why, I feel a moral obligation not to be an entitled boomer and know how all tech works. So maybe you don't have the abstract skills to pull working code out of the ether, so what? At least you can understand that there is a ton of logical mechanisms that go into the interaction of computers, know how they work. I don't know how to justify spending all this time, because I've been doing it since very young and it came natural to me. But on lainchan maybe I shouldn't try. It's a must for people here knowing how tech works

>tfw have computer science degree but still cant program

>>12684 Did you finish your math? >>14983 >I wish people would stop lying and sayinf anyone can program You just did. Thanks lain! >16608 I second this. I was bad in programming although good in hiding it. I quit because I couldn't bear it. Finally I got a job in cleaning toilets from where I was later fired. Part of me is still happy about it and I'm proud of it. I feel I finally did something useful in my life even if I was fired. Even if noone wants to employ me at least I know I am able quit and try to get on with life elsewhere. Getting rid of everybody telling me what to do was a big win. I now realized weird things like how the problems don't go away even without them but it was all extremely insightful. I'm not sure how to go from here but I'm less angry and less frustrated.

>16608 bad quote, it's >>16068

>>13650 Says the nerd that writes CRUD apps for a living lmao.

>>13650 What >>13683 says, but adding that math itself is very varied. It's a completely different field if you are doing differential equations, general topology or number theory. "Programming is mathematics" is not false, but more of a meaningless statement, because the only part that is true is when it only refers to the abstract foundation theory of programming, and even in that case it's the most distant math field

>tfw cant mesh with tech stuff at all >graduated with a degree in computer science What options do I even have in this life

>>16401 >the most distant math field It may be "distant" to what you think of as "math", but to me, computability, especially with it's relationship to provability, is a very basic form of mathematics.

This thread has been going for close to a year now.... what are we even talking about anymore?

I honestly have no idea how you can manage math courses but fail programming courses. I always struggled more with math problems than programming ones. I am expected to remember a ridiculous amount of theorems so well that glancing at a task I instantly"notice that" I can use them. But this will only happen with a soykafton of practice which I don't have time or need for. I also don't really have a proper way to check if my results are correct because the results are kept secret, and re-reading my solution with a faulty understanding doesn't show it to be wrong. The very fact that there is "the correct answer/solution" is annoying - sure there exist several proofs for the same thing but still. Whereas in programming classes there are many ways to solve the same problem and those solutions may be radically different, all I need to make sure is that certain parts of my solution fit the criteria, but am otherwise free. There is no concept of the correct answer. I am allowed to use references so I don't have to remember all the irrelevant details. I can also check if my results are correct. The task either provides example input with the correct output, or if not then I can often just calculate it in my head. My work is to abstract and automate a process I understand. So in a way math is about inventing (and cramming) processes which is mostly harder than understanding and formalizing them. The only reasons I can think of which makes you fail these programming classes are: a) Lack of proper understanding/abstractions on data structures, program structure and execution, functions, classes, compiling process, memory handling, etc All these hip "coding" and "intro" courses notoriously fail to explain what is what, instead they just tell you what to do. This is what most people like and want. In contrast, math people are used to building a tower from definitions with proofs and theorems, but this approach to programming is time-consuming so people just opt for the code monkey "do this do that let's code yolo" method. b) You might be expecting that you can derive a solution from the task like you can derive a proof for a theorem using results of previous proofs. This won't happen, you will never know half of the stack you're sitting on top of, and you don't need to - you have tools that are extremely well defined, often 2-3-5-50 variations of the same tool for whichever use best suits you. You are in discrete Lego land, not real analysis ivory tower.

>>16586 PS.: You should forget about python or java, they are beloved and well-used in the industry but do a soykaf job at teaching what is what. Java is OOP fetishism and Python is a clusterfuck of paradigms. Might wanna give something functional (scheme, haskell, etc) a try, it will fit your math-oriented mind much better - it's just defining soykaf all day, and functions. You might also wanna try something like Pascal or Ada, they are absolutely useless in the industry but they are good at teaching programming concepts and theory, could eventually clear your mind up enough so you can jump back at the industry-favorites. You're a NEET, you're not hurrying anywhere anyway.

>>16583 read again what I said, I explicitely called it a math field, so I do consider it math but within the math landscape it feels very different to the other areas

>>16587 OP says they tried functional languages already. Also your post is incorrect from the outset. It is not possible for everyone to learn programming. This kind of thinking is diseased and will result in suicides. OP says they cant do it so I believe them. Why force irrelevent languages on someone in this scenario?

>>16596 >It is not possible for everyone to learn programming. Do you have any source for this, or is this just your intuition?

>>16596 You conflate me with the thread, friend. I know many people can't learn programming because they are too dumb for the level of abstraction required. OP obviously can't be such as he managed a math course; therefore I suspect that his programming classes had a wrong approach on teaching it. Most programming classes are soykaf, and just like with math and high school, a few bad experiences can deter someone for life through a lack of confidence and assumptions that the whole thing is harder than it really is. I do admit I didn't read more than half of the thread. >This kind of thinking is diseased and will result in suicides. >People will kill themselves therefore you're wrong No >OP says they cant do it so I believe them Yes he provided substantial experience that supports this, but at the same time he also fits the usual pattern where a few early bad experiences ruin the whole thing. I don't feel convinced for either case, and my bet is that he still could learn it with the right teacher and approach. I'd bet even more that he was much more able to learn programming before his unfortunate first experiences.

>>16599 Dude, abstraction is not magically multi functional. Maybe it's possible for someone to be great at some kinds of math and not programming. Does it matter really? Why waste time on earth just to be mediocre at something? Not everybody needs to know how to program. If someone does a honest attempt and fails and keeps failing, the question is not whether he could eventually learn it. The point is that it's still a terrible idea to keep trying for the off-chance that he becomes a prodigy making it all worth it. Just go find something else to be good at.

>>16587 It's also worthy to note that Ada has found a lot of success in industries that are required to meet high degrees of safety and security. Think nuclear submarines and soykaf.

>>17067 >Dude, abstraction is not magically multi functional. That is exactly what abstraction is. I don't really care what OP does, but his case is super dubious to me and I'm really curious about the circumstances he does not say or is not aware of.

>>17073 >That is exactly what abstraction is. ideally yes, but the mind is a capricious computer There is no reason why it should behave correctly We are not talking about abstraction, but rather a brain's ability to conform to different kinds of abstraction

Same issue here. I simply just can't get math or programming like pretty much everyone around me can.

I've had terrible grades in math since high school. Couldn't get into algebra at all, everything else was impossible. I was stressed about math but at the same time had a massive interest in it. I failed every semester. I had terrible self esteem from that, everyone had told me I was a talented child but this was too hard for me already. I thought I was retarded for a long time. I'm picking up some programming and hey it's nice. My only frustrations are because I don't know the dictionary, but I can read code just fine in JavaScript. Does that make me not retarded?

I'm also unable to learn programming despite all mentorship by very good people, not just meme code academies. Everyone who says "anybody can learn programming" really destroys my morale. when i see that even children can grasp things i cant i want to kill myself

So learn a functional programming language. They're based entirely on math.

Functional programming.

>>12684 Are you me? Except for the fact that I started out as Physics/Economics and was aiming for Law School, my trajectory is eerily similar. However, unlike you, I >went overseas to Asia for a while >returned, was kicked out of a technical school >went to Maths grad school >never finished And now I'm at Community College for a Networking/Security concentration (actually, I'm sitting in a Databases course right now as I type this). Still basically a NEET loser though, with a lot of people just out of high school (or even some in high school!) although there are quite a few older people in the courses as well. Don't give up hope though. btw I am IkkiKita on Telegram if you wanna hit me up about anything. Trying to get into Haskell atm since my professor recommended it ha ha. I really detest the forced Object-Oriented thinking patterns of Java although now I realise I can't help but think that way after the first term and it bugs me.

>>12727 >>16038 He's not exactly wrong... sorry for the doublepost, but I didn't finish the Grad School program I was in partly because when I was asking about what I could actually *DO* after finishing, the director (the program was really chaotic and he had taken over in mid-semester) was trying to get me interested in being an 'applications engineer' for a Silicon Valley company that his buddy with some Middle Eastern name runs... When I realised that this requires no real maths knowledge and is basically a glorified Sales position with little possibility for advancement, I was done with them (and tbf they were pretty done with me at that point as well; I had complained a lot after they mistreated my friend and withheld his assistantship pay for a few months which made him have to take up odd jobs just to pay the bills). TL;DR just 'getting a degree' (EVEN A MASTERS, EVEN IN 'STEM') does NOT guarantee 'finding a (good) job'... In fact as far as that is concerned I would say even an A. S. in something in-demand (Non-Destructive Testing, Networking, Marine/Motorcycle, etc.) is probably better than a random B. S. in Math or Physics... and especially Programmers and Nurses can almost always find reasonable employment OUTSIDE of (((Academia))).

Learning disabilities aside, I've often found that a big factor in one's ability to learn and become proficient in any field or endeavor can have more to do with subjective aspects of internal psychology rather then the more objective aspects of innate ability. For example, consider the type of person who may WANT to become a musician, but cannot FORCE themselves to practice. This type lacks the introspective ability to see that they are chasing after some internal need to be seen as a "star" rather then having a true and honest desire to learn music. So many times someone has asked me how I was able to "force" or "make" myself practice the instruments I have learned to play. For me, there was never an issue of "forcing" or "making" myself practice. It was something that I sincerely enjoyed doing, so any grunt work or problem solving was a pleasure and not a chore. The same goes for any technical skill that I've acquired, be it programming or carpentry. Think of the character type that promises themselves every year that they will get fit and that they "need" a gym membership to "force" themselves to do so. That doesn't often work out so well. Compare this to the type that stays fit by waking up and going for a jog first thing in the morning. The type that would feel poorly if they did not go for that jog. I've noticed that a lot of people are not honest with themselves about what they really want. One might want the perceived status that they think comes with learning a new skill or getting a degree in a particular field, but they struggle because they do not know what it is that they really desire. Don't beat yourself up over such things if you are young. I think this sort of uncertainty and false drive is fairly normal. Just be aware, that you might not want what you think you want. That you might be chasing after the representation of a thing and not the thing itself. Also, trivial or not... I agree with this anon completely. >>13718 >I find programming way more frustrating... You are ultimately at the mercy of others and if they fuarrrk up you have always end with plenty wasted hours trying to fix it That just about sums up my day job.

is it even possible to function in this world as a technologically disabled person? yet i know nothing else. im sick of banging my head against the wall of programming especially when employment prospects for even that dont look too good. yet theres not really any other demand for anything else. its not like im bad at tech but good at something else. im just kinda bad at tech.

==@Dox. It's a bloody miracle you can== even locate lainchan and type inside this textbox. I've been on websites for forty years and still nobody will tell me how to craft my own hyperlink. That's the wages of hanging out with technophile suburbanites is you always feel slower and incompetent. Yes it's possible to function as a retard, and you're probably not as bad off as you think you are, but aiming for goals set by like the top 3% for years and years will fuarrrk your brain up.

>>22262 so what am I supposed to do? i feel really useless in this world. everything is about technology but i just cant figure that stuff out. im tired of banging my head against the programming wall. this stuff is 100% not for me and i am not capable of learning it. i hope the people who spread the lie that anyone can program get thrown into the darkest chasms. but i know nothing else because I have spent years banging my head against this at the cost of pursuing literally anything else and I have absolutely nothing to show for it. i want to get a job and be self sufficient but there is absolutely nothing i am qualified to do.its not like im unable to program but am gifted in some other capacity. and even if i was everything in this world revolves around technology. ive revolved around technology since i was a kid and all i got from it was a very high typing WPM. >learn IT this goes even WORSE for me than programming... maybe im just meant to die. im the lowerclass in the burgeoning technocrat society that not only WILL die off without offspring but SHOULD die off it all feels very hopeless

>>23216 I'm learning python right now and so far it's a blast (albeit I'm only a couple of chapters in). What are you learning programming for? employment or fun? and have you taken any CS classes?

>>12684 Learn how if/endif statements and looping constructs in simple Basics are converted to assembly. Then learn Forth by creating your own interpreter. "Theoretical Computer Scientists" warn against learning Assembly, plain Basics, and Forth, because they want to you to think everything is about lambda calculus (rather than registers). Basically, pun intended, they want to keep you as their bitch, so they can continue reaping illegitimate rewards from their stupid meme field of PL and compiler R&D.

>>23493 Studied it for 4 years. >>23549 Didn't help

>>12812 >>12838 Maybe this? https://blog.codinghorror.com/separating-programming-sheep-from-non-programming-goats/ Or something from here? https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/09/is-it-true-that-not-everyone-can-be-a-programmer/

>>23697 man, i have neither of these problems yet still can't program

>>23549 to be fair computers were literally invented to execute computer languages, not the other way around. there's a reason they want to make you their bitch. kidding aside the theory of computation is a fascinating field with a really interesting philosophical history, at least from a maths perspective. although i don't blame you for thinking it's useless. if it ever did anything useful i assure you it was purely on accident.

>>23549 >guy complains he just cant hack a subject at all >genius comments: yeah but have you tried learning?

>>25553 The only difference is the time to learn. normal people need maybe 5 years to learn what genius does in a a year but they still can learn it. Bit off topic but this is why i believe you always should stick to emerging fields if you are smart. You cant stand out in an old industry because trained normal people will do just as well given enough time.

>>25555 the main trait of any genius is maniacal devotion to their work.

>>25555 >>25556 The word 'genius' in >>25553 is used sarcastically to refer to >>23549

>>12733 yea, this is actually a good quote from Alister Crowley for OP. the quote derives from the magickal concept of "will", basically, your calling, what you were put on Earth to understand and do. so clearly, given the amount of difficulty and suffering that OP subjected themself to in the name of programming, it clearly wasn't meant to be --programming is not OP's will, and that's okay. no need to feel bad about it. find your true will, OP, and Godspeed

>>25565 Damien Echols on the other hand, his will is to practice magick in itself. i consider myself more in line with witchcraft though, basically a western form of shamanism. given my background for understanding, at lease vaguely at first, the meanings behind spiritual beliefs like Buddhism and Christianity, and my recent studies into minerals and forms life and carcasses, and their interactions with the atmosphere, the hydrosphere, and the biosphere, as part of my investigation into the mysteries of life and death, i actually hold that once we get into the significance behind the myths and practices, which is kind of how people think and retain knowledge to begin with, instead of deriding the myths in themselves, shamanism is pretty much valid. but being a Westerner, i personally would have more of a flare for witchcraft. still, it doesn't hurt to listen to Damien Echols, i feel that it's quite pleasant and enriching, in fact

>>25565 >>25566 but still, OP, don't feel bad. once find, focus on, and practice your will, it may help you to make sense of things you previously couldn't, in other words, even if your will isn't to program right now, it may expand to include to include it later on. so, really, don't feel bad

>>12727 >What do I do Take responsibility for your own behaviour and actions and stop shifiting blame to an online portal and the programming meme. >>12733 This is good advice. Do what YOU want, not what someobody else wants of you. You've got a maths degree. The world is your oyster. Go forth and multiply.

>>26152 >go forth and multiply 2 dup * .

>>26152 >do what you want and what if i dont have anything?

>>26168 You create something.

>>26174 that doesnt make any sense.

>>26152 It's been over a year since OP posted this, but hopefully he at least got a job as a math teacher or something. I'm surprised at all of the people ITT who think that someone who's good at math would inherently be good at programming; the way that somebody thinks/problem-solves and the context of the information/problem can influence how well they can process/solve it. For example, I'm decent at PP and terrible at OOP, great with stats and terrible at all other kinds of math, and retain information about living things much better than other categories of information. OP may just be better at solving more abstract problems.

>>26234 >"Do what you want!" >"But I don't have anything." >"Then you create something." >"THIS DOESN"T MAKE ANY SENSE" If you don't have anything, you create something. I fail to see how this does not make sense.

>>26273 create what?

>>26861 Find something you enjoy doing and do it

>>26867 Please expand

>>27142 I enjoy having a fit and healthy body. I work on that by working out and having a good diet. I create a healthy body. I like music, so I create it using DAP software and a cheap midi keyboard. I always wanted to play an instrument so I rented a Harp to try it. I am manifesting my dream by doing it. I enjoy flirting with women but I didn't have any game so could never pick them up. So I read some good books, asked for advice and started to approach women in the streets and started flirting with them. Now i'm still pretty mediocre at it, but I used to be atrocious. Therefore, I've created game. That's basically what I mean with 'do what you want'. Know what you want and start doing it. What do you enjoy doing? If you don't enjoy anything, what would you like to enjoy?

>>27143 >DAP Software Should be DAW Software

>>27143 I dont enjoy doing anything and theres nothing I would like to enjoy.

>>27165 Ok. Well, good luck then. I don't see any other way to help you.

>>27170 thats mean

>>27235 How is that mean? I've exhausted my ways of helping someone over the Internet - or maybe it just tires me,.. How can you not enjoy or want to enjoy anything? - so I can't see any other ways of helping.

>>16483 start over.. get in a bs field like gender studies >>16598 intuition is a reasonable source, you don't need to be spoon-fed everything. >>19745 If you are retarded and doing well does it even matter? >>20091 Either you don't like it deep-down or you're bad at it, either way you should do something that enlightens you. Don't hurt yourself trying to be a programmer just to end up a depressed hikki, it's not worth it. >>20832 Thank you for reminding us to do things with a goal. This is especially important in the context of life as a whole.Good think is good. >"No matter where you go, everybody's connected." >>27235 >what do I do? >whatever you want >what if I don't I want? >"create something" (do something that makes you want) >"create what?" (what do I do) >whatever you want Am I the only one seeing this??? Don't hound anon for answers he has no clue what to do.Also you can't blame him or expect answers especially since he said himself "I don't see any other way to help you." You should just appreciate his honesty. Also any -chan is probably a bad place to find direction. Humanity has spent forever trying to find direction, just for neets to say it's all meaningless because we live in a woke/tech age that has the possibility to please everyone. I personally don't believe fulfillment can be found in the sole pursuit of pleasure. Don't fall for the meme of living for work. It's an excellent way to prolong your existence and contribute to society, but your employment/work does not define what existence is or why it is. You are asking us a very difficult question that maybe no one on lainchan is willing to answer, maybe because this crowd just cant. You need to go study Philosophy and Theology if you want humanity's collective wisdom on these and other questions. Beware, even within these studies you'll find difficulty, you'll ask more questions, and you'll likely come across good arguments that everything is meaningless. The best I can do is to redirect you to /lit/ they might be able to help you there. IMO you were not born to die or to be another cog in the machine. I hope I stayed on topic since the question is in /hum/ and you've already expressed your dissatisfaction with programming.

>>30371 correction *>what if I don't want?

>>30371 >>30372 I don't know what to do. the only way i can reconcile my life is to pretend im an npc in a video game. it gets easier to live that way. im not interested in any media anymore. i do basically nothing aside from stare at the wall and mindlessly browse chans. i dont want to read anymore i dont want to watch anymore i dont want to play or listen anymore. theres no real point in existing in 2020 if i cant learn to program theres no real point in existing when youve never held a hobby your entire life

>>30403 >theres no real point in existing in 2020 if i cant learn to program And why is that? Because you can't fit in with groids and be a good slave with a large paycheck, needlessly large house, a dozen cars collecting dust, a worthless succubus and several screaming anc crying groidlings so you may perpetuate the cycle? As for the rest of your post - at that point the only rational choice left is to kill yourself. Keep in mind that even though I say that and believe it to be true, it nonetheless isn't good enough for me, I stubbornly cling to the idea that there must be something, some point to all this misery, and perhaps I will find it if I just endure one more night. Been waiting for 8 years already, and there hasn't been even a sign. All that's changed is my misery and despair has fermented into bitterness and spite against everyone and everything, including myself. Reason no longer need apply.

>>30403 >the only way i can reconcile my life is to pretend im an npc in a video game Pretending that you don't have free-will won't make your desires manifest automatically, it will only give that illusion. You're constantly making decisions you're just not taking responsibility for them. That being said we're not in control of everything, so you should accept not being perfect. >i do basically nothing aside from stare at the wall and mindlessly browse chans. That is still something, and there must be a reason that you do this.. You should give it some thought. >theres no real point in existing in 2020 if i cant learn to program Almost everyone is doing it. Also why would you think that? >theres no real point in existing when youve never held a hobby your entire life A hobby is something you do in your free time. No one should be living for hobbies to begin with. If you're trying to say "There is no point in living without desire," that is true. However you obviously do have desire, you are still eating,sleeping, and breathing to some degree. You also spend time on -chans. That may sound insignificant to you, but there is a reason that you desire to spend your time in this way. You should seriously figure out what it is. If you get to the source of it, you may discover other things that can fulfill you.

>>30408 >>30409 >why is that its not really a money thing because ive defined myself by tech stuff for so long, even going to school for it(i'm not OP). i've seen so many people grasp concepts that i never really got. i wasted many years of my life trying to learn programming and only relatively recently had to sit down with myself and realize the only reasons why this is the case is >i have no real use for any programming and thus do not care/the enthusiasm to learn is not htere >i am stupid I just got tired of all the false starts and lashing out at people when i make no progress. I dont like anything that im doing or not doing. i always seethe with jealousy whenever someone tells me they've done such and such since they were teens or reading that someone did X which they pursued in adulthood to a fulfilling life.

>>30403 >I don't know what to do. the only way i can reconcile my life is to pretend im an npc in a video game. Seriously the last thing we need in 2020 is more npcs, its no wonder your life is a mess if you try to fit in to their little world. >i dont want to read anymore i dont want to watch anymore i dont want to play or listen anymore. This sounds more like severe depression, if those dont make you content then you need to find something else to be content with. Just try to think what you would do if there were no restrictions or rules, i know its not very helpful but somehow you need to find something else that gives your life some meaning. >theres no real point in existing in 2020 if i cant learn to program Whats your big obsession with it? Programming is just a skill to make tool that does something on your computer. Have you thought of what to do with those skills? I think your main problem is you dont know what to do, pick up a project, maintain a abandoned foss project or do some opensource game hacking of some sort. There is so much to do out there, even beyond programming itself. It may seem like a fun and cool hobby, but its a tedious grind most of the time and forget about holding a programming job, those are the worst. >theres no real point in existing when youve never held a hobby your entire life Who told you this soykaf? Seriously most peoples "hobbies" are soykaf and most people are dull inerly dead husks that use hobbies as a way to suppress the meaninglesness of their lifes. I can relate to your pain, but standing still and hoping it goes away is futile, you need to get out there and find out what it is you want out of life and take it.

>>30408 I'm not sure if I wrote this post but I feel exactly like this. There's no meaning to anything. People themselves do not care about anything but buy product. I feel like they don't have any humanity left, they just consume. They look at everything like something to consume, even other people. There's no such thing as inspiration or love or other complex emotions anymore, there are just needs or lizard brain hot buttons. I would have liked to work with animals but no work involving animals is actually loving toward animals, it's all violence and abuse. I really do not understand what to do with my life. I have already spiraled into a deep hatred for people, I am disgusted by them, I cannot interact with them any more. I do not want to be of service of these creatures that only consume. If you go somewhere on the internet and put yourself out there, nobody seems to be interested in you, they only care about how to consume the product you have unwittingly made in the act of reaching out to others. I hate this. I feel as if I try to go for a hug and they start humping me. I fuarrrking hate people so much.

>>30411 >ive defined myself by tech stuff for so long The fact that you have done so in that past has little meaning for your future self. If something is wearing you out don't keep doing it, try something new. Maybe you wasted alot of your time, but you don't have to waste the rest of your life in the same way. It's okay to give up on something that is so destructive to your existence. >I just got tired of all the false starts Do something that you know without a doubt justifies your existence. You can't fail at that, you will only achieve or overachieve. >and lashing out at people when i make no progress If these people are still in your life, then gather the courage to ask their forgiveness. > I dont like anything that im doing or not doing If there is something you don't like not-doing, can't you just do it? Is there more to this? I don't get what you're trying to say. >i always seethe with jealousy whenever someone tells me they've done such and such since they were teens[..] which they pursued in adulthood to a fulfilling life. Are you sure they are fulfilled? If you're reading about people just know it's hard for someone who has worked hard to tell the entire world they feel like a failure. If you think that the people around you feel fulfilled try talking to them about this subject. Have you read the replies to this thread? A lot of people in the modern age feel unfulfilled, but we often delude others into thinking we are, and as a result a lot of people feel inferior. Don't feel bad about your lack of direction. Work towards finding it. >>30424 >There's no meaning to anything. Then there is no meaning to meaninglessness. Or there is meaning... >I have already spiraled into a deep hatred for people, I am disgusted by them It would help to realize they probably think the same way you do.They feel exploited, and lost. That manifests in their interaction with other people. If we improve ourselves perhaps we'd feel alot better even if everyone else is sick. Being able to inspire others with hope, and being shunned would still better than going into a despair that no one can escape. >I cannot interact with them any more Isn't that something you should fix within yourself. If you can somehow improve yourself you would know firsthand why people despair and why they should not despair(hope). This is highly desirable to others, and would improve you in return. >nobody seems to be interested in you The world does not revolve around the individual. Personally I don't believe humanity exists for humanity alone. This kind of feedback loop is certainly going to make one feel pointless. When we serve a greater good we naturally improve others, and ourselves. You seriously need to focus more on what you can give rather than recieve from the world. This is exactly the problem you're describing. The way you look at others asks what can they do for you, but you're hurt when they do the same.. I'm not saying you're a bad person either. You obviously want to be a part of humanity and you desire inspiration and love, which we all do. What is left is to find the ultimate source of that inspiration.

>>30427 >If you can somehow improve yourself I have been an enthusiastic, outgoing, positive person for as long as I could, despite horrible things happening to me since my early childhood, and eventually people curbed it all and gave me nothing back. And now I'm told "maybe improve yourself". I don't know how else I can "improve myself" besides making a lot of money so people respect me since that's all they seem to understand. They appreciate literal criminals who earn money more than me, just because they're part of this soykafty money game everyone wants to play. It's true online, it's true offline, it's true for the rich, it's true for the poor. If I ever touch on things I find dear to me, things I find meaning into, people laugh and mock me. They think all these things that are not making money and helping your family make money are useless. They only want money. I don't know what "improving myself" means besides changing into someone I am not, a worse person by my own standards and the human standards through history, abandoning my principles and everything I hold dear, and start playing this cutthroat game of hoarding. I find this "maybe improve yourself" so goddamn insulting. I am a honest person with solid ethics, I know how to talk to people, I have tact, I have manners, I take care of myself, I am eager to work hard when I am called to and I have proven this time and time again, I am eager to help, I am eager to be part of something, I am not a money grubbing piece of soykaf since I only care about surviving as long as I can fulfill myself, but I have to "improve myself". But literal psychopaths are at the head of everything in this society, those are not being told to "improve themselves". The only people who seem to appreciate who I am are elderly people who have been abandoned by their families or have no family who abandoned them, and who will probably stop existing a few years from now. Everyone else despises me because I don't play the game, no matter who I am. Everyone says I should "improve myself" and every single person who says this leads a life I would find unbearable, or is in the exact same spot as I am except they direct all the hate inwards, because society says that if you have a problem with the game you are faulty and you need to fix your brain so you can play along.

>>30428 I didn't say to improve yourself so you could fit into society or to fit a corrupt model of a human being. I'm talking about being able to empathize with the other people who are in the same boat as you. If you hate yourself you can't do that. I don't want anyone to feel like they need to fake fulfillment. If you feel changing how people respect you by making money is an improvement, know that you are wrong. That is not what I meant at all. Living for others' respect is the thing that needs to be changed. They don't respect the things you find important because they are also hopeless. They will naturally challenge anyone whose priorities differ. You are correct that improving your self means changing "changing into someone [you are] not." >a worse person by my own standards and the human standards through history, abandoning my principles and everything I hold dear, and start playing this cutthroat game of hoarding I want to know what your standards or what ideology/philosophy are you living by. Anyways change is not destruction, an improvement cannot possibly mean destroying your good qualities. >I am a honest person with solid ethics I'm going to keep it real with you. You sound conceited. It's good to protect your good qualities, but to claim you have a sound foundation while you are lost is questionable. Ethics isn't something that should make someone miserable. >I know how to talk to people, I have tact, I have manners, I take care of myself, I am eager to work hard when I am called to and I have proven this time and time again, I am eager to help, I am eager to be part of something, I am not a money grubbing piece of soykaf since I only care about surviving as long as I can fulfill myself, but I have to "improve myself". But literal psychopaths are at the head of everything in this society, those are not being told to "improve themselves". All good qualities, hold onto that. Also if a psychopath gets on lainchan I'll talk to them the same way :) . If someone is asking for directions I'll give it to them. If a person is lost and does not ask, should I subject them to my beliefs. You are out of tune with the outside world. Do you not see that people are telling those in power to improve themselves? They just aren't listening. You don't have to be like that, and there is no reason to assume those in power and those being oppressed cannot both improve each other. >Everyone says I should "improve myself" and every single person who says this leads a life I would find unbearable.. If I say you are perfect and you have no room for improvement will that inspire you to change? Because society makes people miserable; should we reject everything that society accepts? If society says to fit its mold you reject it. If I say change yourself by living for a different purpose you also reject this. Sorry if that insults you.

>>30430 >cannot both improve each other. Correction, I meant improve themselves.

>>30430 >to claim you have a sound foundation while you are lost is questionable. Not for a single second in the last 6 years of my life I have felt "lost". I have felt impotent, I have felt miserable, I have felt desperate, but I have never felt lost. I know exactly who I am and who I want to be. There are things I know I am lacking based on my own standards, I know I am not perfect. But I am not lost. I wouldn't say the rest of the world is lost either, because when people are confronted with the nature of things they seem to be perfectly aware of the path they have taken. This sounds a lot like what my "therapist" told me while she gave me my compliance drugs. The drugs did nothing to me. They removed the ache that was eating away at me but when I needed help to actually find the answers I was given nothing except "play the game. You have to play the game" and I was told that "I expect too much" when what I expect is basic humanity and decency. If this is really too much then how can I have empathy for people? I can have empathy for animals since they are not aware, but people are aware, they know who they are. This is all a choice they're making. And I don't start on a hostile footing either, they just prove it. I can't go on like this forever to look for the proverbial needle in the haystack. I don't even want to depend on people this much, or make this my life goal. I just want to be something and no matter how much I wish or try to convince myself that I can be something as a human being in a complete vacuum, this isn't possible. I'm not that enlightened, I'm not that strong either.

>>30432 I'm glad you're not lost then. It's great being able to exist for something that fulfills you. If people are aware that they have chosen a path that makes them miserable, aren't they on the wrong path, and lost though? Ignore the word 'lost' if it helps, I didn't mean it literately. I'm speaking of a feeling of fulfillment and enlightenment not awareness of the ability to choose or not to choose. >This sounds a lot like what my "therapist" told me Dang, I could be getting paid for chan-ing. I guess everyone doesn't want something from you.. >"I expect too much" when what I expect is basic humanity and decency How is what I'm saying like that. I'm not telling you to give up on humanity. I suggested self improvement in a way that improves the people around you. Being able to empathize means realizing you are like other people. Rather than look at their worst qualities and your best qualities look at your own bad qualities and reflect on why you and the rest of us are the way we are. Also you say can empathize with animals because they are not aware? Does that mean you are also not aware, or maybe lost?

>>30434 >I suggested self improvement in a way that improves the people around you. Dude what the hell does that even mean? There's no leading by example in this world or people would actually become better instead of worse because we live in times where "inspiring stories" are the bread and butter of marketing. You wouldn't have social media with horrible people saying horrible things getting thousands of upvotes because they caters to political extremism or the worst possible instincts of this species. You wouldn't have whores and assholes at the very top of everything, proudly displaying how much of a piece of soykaf they are, and you wouldn't have the people worshipping them just because they are "successful", they hoarded more capital. It doesn't even matter how ethical this is, 50 years ago making money with gambling was a shame on your family, now it's an achievement. If you make money you are a "pro" at the thing. If you to dirty stuff for a living you are an "entertainer" now, you gotta give it to 'em, they do make money so you have to respect them. They're literally worth more than me. All you can do in 2020 for society is sell a cheaper, newer, shinier product. That's what this life is, you make a product and you buy one with the money you get from it, and then you stick it up your ass because hedonism fuarrrk yeah. You don't even know what you mean with "self-improvement", your posts say nothing with actual meaning, it's all vague platitudes. Sorry but I've read your post a few times over and you go round in circles to say nothing. Are you doing this just to roleplay pastor or therapist? Yes you could get paid to say this stupid stuff to people who are on compliance pills, that's why it's profitable to get a degree for it. No I do not think of myself as an animal just because I have more compassion for them than people, it s just that no animal did what people did to me , actually they do nothing to anybody at all these days, yet people give no fuarrrks if they're tortured in ways that would make Auschwitz look like a theme park because guess what, they don't give a fuarrrk about Auschwitz either. They just fake it because it's a bad signal if you show other human beings that you don't give a soykaf, not only because it's bad etiquette but it might also signal that you don't play the game and therefore you cannot be part of a profitable exchange. That's actually what people would care about the most. You know how people call all the docs and nurses heroes because of the rona? Yeah, I have a nurse in the family. She got called a hero all right, her kids didn't get invited to parties, people don't come to her house. That's what people do.

>>30445 >Dude what the hell does that even mean? I was referring to my previous posts and the post you re-read several times where I said not to live for society. I've replied to every one of your posts with the same comment in more or less words: Don't live for society. You're constantly repeating what society respects, what people live for, how someone is treated if they don't become socially acceptable. I am saying you have to build the courage to be criticized and continue being yourself. You will never find that strength however, if your purpose is to appease other people, because they control the narrative as you say. What I mean by self improvement is "growing a pair." Platitude, I know. If you want to know how society around you can change as a result, here it is. Talk to people IRL the way you talk on lainchan, question their character and their actions and call them out for contributing to the society that perpetuates despair. If the most respected people today are corrupt, then start with the people around you that are most respected. Arguing with people on lainchan who are in the same boat as you won't change anything. >No I do not think of myself as an animal just because I have more compassion for them than people Either you didn't read my post or you didn't look up the word "empathy." Based off of your post, the nurse you speak of sounds exactly like the person I'd like to be. The "self-improved" person, she does something good that benefits her financially and improves the health of society, even though she isn't treated well for it. I really don't get what we are in disagreement about, but I don't want to be an annoying e-therapist/pastor, so I'm going to shut up. From your description you have someone in your life that lives in the way I described, and I can't top that.

did you actually do projects or just try to learn programming theory from books? the best way to understand programming is to program stuff you really want to build

>>30427 >>30413 >If there is something you don't like not-doing, can't you just do it? Is there more to this? I don't get what you're trying to say. i dont like the things im not doings and i dont like the things im doing = i dont like anything i guess >Are you sure they are fulfilled? If you're reading about people just know it's hard for someone who has worked hard to tell the entire world they feel like a failure. If you think that the people around you feel fulfilled try talking to them about this subject. Have you read the replies to this thread? A lot of people in the modern age feel unfulfilled, but we often delude others into thinking we are, and as a result a lot of people feel inferior. Don't feel bad about your lack of direction. Work towards finding it. they're more fulfilled than me If i dont have hobbies then what do i really have here

>>30486 how do i learn to code if i have no practical reason for programming whatsoever. i went and got a cs degree where i tried to learn to code for 4 years and made no progress from my highschool days. i cant do more htan hello world.

>>30663 I call larp. You need to write fully functional programs as part of the course.

>>30664 sadly not

>>30664 Not if they're group projects

>>30664 I dropped from college specifically because i didn't have to do anything practical.

>>30694 If you cheat and let others do everything thats arguably on you and not the course.

>>30698 I didn't cheat once

>>30704 Correct me if wrong but wasnt the implication "i never wrote code cause i never contributed in group projects and just took credit" ? Cause how else are you gonna avoid it in group projects?

>>30708 i didnt write that. i just accidentally got my degree through luck. thats really the only justification

>>30490 Well you have your dick and balls, so best start utilizing them properly.

>>30798 huh