The Internet and Social Isolation

The main topic of this post is the Internet and social isolation. I will affirm that the Internet and computer technology has made humans more socially isolated from each other and consequently feelings of loneliness has become more frequent in the general population. In all forms of text-only communication, there are a number of factors missing from online communication. Making a post on this board we are not able to see the faces of each other, so we cannot read the expressions on our faces which is something we naturally do when we interact with another person in meatspace. We cannot listen to our voices and then we cannot perceive and interpret the tone of our voices, a quality of social interaction that, for example, is essential in detecting sarcasm. We are not able to physically touch each other, we cannot experience tactile sensations of affection with hugs or kissing or even sex. All of these factors are important in forming profound relationships with other humans. As such, we can recognize that in communicating with each other in the Internet we cannot form deep, intimate bonds with each other. I belive that this is the cause of our feelings of loneliness, at least these are the reasons that I think explain the feelings of loneliness I experience. Do you feel lonely? Also, we may think that online communication is a form of social interaction but I will assert that this is not accurate. We are able to communicate with each other but not interact with each other, as what I have stated previously, we cannot physically touch each other and therefore we cannot interact with each other, yet we are able to exchange information with each other (communicate) but communication is not necessarily interaction (mutual physical contact). Now I find inspiration from the genre of cyberpunk to address this issue of social isolation. William Gibson described the Internet, or something like it, as a consensual hallucination that the users perceive. Our experiences in the Internet could be made more socially intimate and fulfilling if there was such a device that would interface directly with our brains to induce false sensations and we perceived these sensations as the 'cyberspace'. This device would be able to generate sensations of touching another person or even the sensation of sight to perceive wonderful colors, we would be able to interace with objects in cyberspace by stimulating our sensation of touch. This is all just an idea and not an original one either, nonetheless I believe that I have made my point sufficiently. What do you think? Has the Internet and computer technology made you more lonely?

>>11965 Hey lainon, I can relate to what you're saying. I used to be lonely and thought that internet "friends" are my only friends. I used to be very socially inept which is why the internet made me believe I had friends, but the sheer toxicity of those relationships made me realise how much of a fool I was. I have since moved on to actually interacting more with people and making friends in the meatspace, as you call it, and it honestly feels so much better. To go back to your original question, yes I believe the internet made me more lonely, and getting out of the trap was a difficult process. But it's not like I don't enjoy the internet or the loneliness that accompanies it. Sometimes, it just feels better to be online than to be with people, and I can't really explain why. Sorry for going on a few tangents there, but those are my two cents.

Emotionally, the internet is a double edged sword. Its easier to be open but harder to form a real connection. I think emotionally mature adults are more than able to handle the internet, but children are not and they should not be allowed to use the internet for this reason. I myself blame my own social ineptitude on excessive internet use as a child, and I see many kids who are growing up on Instagram and whatnot are constantly anxious and put on fake faces 24/7. Children should not be allowed on the web until they're well into their teens.

>>11968 With respect to that, I see children not forming bonds with their peers as well which sometimes results in stunted emotional and psychological maturity/growth to an extent.

>>11968 >Children should not be allowed on the web until they're well into their teens. Preventing your kid from using the web is the best way to get them ostracized and turned into social pariah. >I myself blame my own social ineptitude on excessive internet use as a child, and I see many kids who are growing up on Instagram and whatnot are constantly anxious and put on fake faces 24/7. It's not the internet - socially awkward/autistic/abused kids have been practising escapism for a very long time, before the web there were, for example, books (I was that kid - I would spend entire days reading sci-fi/fantasy) and before them daydreaming. Your excessive internet use is a symptom of your issues, not the cause.

>>11974 >Preventing your kid from using the web is the best way to get them ostracized and turned into social pariah. counterpoint: I don't want my kid hanging around with people like that anyway. Not until they're old enough to have a more independent personality, at least. >before the web there were, for example, books (I was that kid - I would spend entire days reading sci-fi/fantasy) and before them daydreaming. Your excessive internet use is a symptom of your issues, not the cause. I was exactly the same. Books were my escape. I think books are more beneficial than the internet though. I learned how people really think and feel by reading. A good book conveys more social skills than instagram or facebook or 4chan, and it doesn't make you feel constantly inferior either. I guess I should say: for introverted people like us, the internet is detrimental at a young age. I think parents should sit down with their kids and have "the internet talk" just like they have "the sex talk". Let them know how superficial it can be, and the dangers of being sucked in, and why it's best to avoid the bubbles of corporate social media. But also tell them how great it can be, as a source of knowledge and as a place to share your own knowledge and experiences with strangers across the globe.

Saw publication on how new doctors are soykaf with their hand/eye coordination and spacial vision due to sitting to much before screens instead of playing with real objects which is a giant problem when you need people good at operating with minimal mistakes. Kinda funny to think about how producing games with maximum addiction to maximize profit might bite devs back in retirement when they lie at the operation table.

Been homeless for a good three years ago and being off the grid for the time that I did I no longer fit in with other people and it doesn't matter who. Some moments we can bond an have a friendly moment but more than likely the things I say or do just shot down as a negative choice opposite from everyone my age. Everyone i grew up with

Reads like a high school essay

>>11965 I think there's more nuance to it than that, so my thoughts may end up just being a non-answer. Anyway. I have meatspace friends, but my most fulfilling relationship is with someone 5 and a half hours ahead of my time. I think it's fair to say that online mediums lack some important information exchange in bonding, but not "key". All you need is information exchange and mutual concern, fundamentally, though I'm making this up as I go so point out my mistakes here. The internet is a harder medium within which to bond with someone, even when you can be more open. However, not impossible. If you get used to the internet and inadept at meatspace, maybe it could isolate you. I think the reason many of us feel so lonely, isn't caused by internet use, deep internet use is a symptom. You didn't connect with others, so you delve deeper. The further you go into the hallucination of the internet - especially alone - the harder it is to share your experiences with others. Two people may be in just as deep but have an entirely different set of experiences and nothing in common. It seems like a negative cycle, when I think of it like that. Sometimes I really want to never go online again. But I'm in love with my best friend, and I cling to the idea the information I get here is too useful. I'm sure plenty of artists and musicians educated themselves just fine without the internet, through sharing information in person. You should try disconnecting on my behalf, Lain.

>>12051 Yours reads like a Twitter post though.

>>11966 >>11966 If you're still here do you think you can elaborate on how those "toxic relationships" went? As in, how and where you met them, factors that helped you realize they were unpleasant experiences, etc.

I have some very close meatspace friends and some very close wired friends. I honestly don't remember a pre-internet time(except when I was a kid), but it does taint everything now. It's hard to hang out with people when all people do is look at their phones the whole time. Hard to really bond. I don't think internet friendships are inherently less valuable than meatspace friendships. Being socially isolated irl definitely makes your dependence on the internet a huge crutch... it's even harder to bond online than offline. But online friendships can be great.

>>11965 People are not needed, as well as off-line communication! On the Internet, people are honest, because in fact they are talking to various personal forms. In the real world, everyone lies, hypocrites, hypocrites and behave like an actor! The perception of loneliness is no more than an abstract manifestation of a man’s incompleteness and inferiority. A full person does not need all this!

>>13645 >In the real world, everyone lies I try my best not to.

>>13645 I partially agree with you. How was going that quote from Oscar Wilde ...? "Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth."

>>13653 Yes, I have a low tolerance for lies, at least those of a certain form. You can always argue about whether living a life that contradicts your principles constitues a lie or, in the tradition of St. Augustine, whether a joke that misrepresents reality constitutes a lie, but when talking about lies as statements that satisfy the following criteria: 1.) they express propositions that the speaker knows to be false 2.) the speaker intends for the hearer to believe either the expressed propositions or that the speaker believes the expressed propositions 3.) the speaker has no intention of revealing the truth within a reasonably short period of time of such a length that no meaningful consequences would be expected to arise from the deception and usually satisfying one extra feature 4.) the speaker hopes to gain some advantage through deceiving the hearer, I find that there is little that I dislike more in human behavior and communication. I try to avoid making such statements, and I become, as far as I can tell, unusually upset when I discover that someone has lied to me in such a fashion. I honestly find it baffling that, as far as I can tell, the average individual sees the lie as just another tool in their toolbox, to be employed whenever they want something from someone else and it's convenient to use it. It seems crystal clear to me that lying devalues communication and relationships in principle. Introduce a lie to the system, and we're all playing a different game (metaphorically and mathematically, if you take my meaning). Liars seem to think that they can turn it on and off as it suits them, like they can have their credibility back whenever they want it, but it doesn't work that way. "Of course I lied to them, but I'd never lie to you." "Of course I lied to you about this thing, but I'd never lie to you when it mattered." If humans had some way to signal honesty or deception outside of ordinary language, then it would make a certain amount of sense, but we only have the one "channel," so, once you've demonstrated your capacity for planned lying, statements like "I'm telling the truth this time" or even "I won't lie to you ever again" hold no meaning, because they can be lies too. Even worse are the cases where someone weaves a web and then becomes upset with you for not assisting them in maintaining the deception. Disconcertingly, though, I've discovered that I tend to lie as a first instinct in cases where I'm anxious and pressured to respond quickly, so I guess I'm no paragon of honesty, either. To put the above ideas more succinctly: "And you don't seem to understand/A shame you seemed an honest man[...]And you don't seem the lying kind/A shame that I can read your mind"

>>11965 A cyberspace that could provide a comparable influence on our lives; spiritually, emotionally, socially, et cetera; is one I can only hope to be able to see while I live. As with all futuretech, I despair at the thought of just missing the time frame of its implementation. I have found myself never exploring the digital sea until recently. I would only stay on the proverbial mainland (FB,4chn,YT,DA) where there was little risk to my ideas as long as I stayed in the fence I helped build around myself and the others around me. This is pretty obviously what most people do, so there's a pretty huge overpopulation of these areas, as thus a dilution of some ideas and concentration of others. I think this may be one of the biggest issues that stem from our secondary interface with the wired. Staring at a screen is just not good enough, as you said, to create meaningful interactions with others for the reasons you said as well as my point. >>11968 >>12496 >>13645 I have found that people that lie IRL will lie online, and vice versa. It's not quite the same relationship with the truth, however. There are more deceivers out there, simply because it's a self-propagating condition, unlike the truth. Most often, people will tell others what they think will get them the best response. If that happens to be the truth, that's what you get, but that's not hardly half the time I'd guess. The truths that come regardless of consequence most often come when one communicates with someone they truly value the continuing opinion of, both on and offline. This will in turn effect someone to act or feel in a way that makes it easier to tell the truth to these people. I'm not sure the term for this, but the consequences of the truth change your life, and your life choices in turn become those actions that are easier to be honest about. At least, that's how it's supposed to work~

>>12051 this

>>11968 >Children should not be allowed on the web until they're well into their teens. That is extreme. As a responsible parent you must supervise them and make sure they are accessing proper educational content and are using proper social media which excludes sites like facebook because of their term's of use. I don't know the minimum age, but what I mean by social media is school boards, child games and maybe vr, but if they are going to be using those technologies early I say get them into programming and understanding their machine, os and network. This is the age of the internet. That being said, get their ass outside and in the garden, pool, lake. Bring them hiking and get them in sports or scouting. Do not get them glued to that machine.

>>14705 >As a responsible parent you must supervise them and make sure they are accessing proper educational content and are using proper social media Talking to parents at work, the problem these days is smart phones. You can't stop your kid dropping $5 for a pre-paid SIM card and then browsing whatever, whenever.

>>14705 >That being said, get their ass outside and in the garden, pool, lake. Bring them hiking and get them in sports or scouting. Do not get them glued to that machine. This. Force them to go outside, teach them that there's more than the machine. Because, given the choice, they'll always choose to sit in front of the machine. Speaking from a bit of experience, unfortunately.

>>11965 I don't agree with you, OP, when you say that it is not possible to interact with others within the Internet. You claim that social interaction requires, by definition, physical intimacy. But, is this true? And if it is, is it an ahistorical truth? I believe, on the contrary, that communication through the Internet will change the way we actually "interact" with each other, ultimately redefining the whole notion of social interaction. For me, a person who, the same as you (and as most here, I assume) dived into the Internet trying to find an escape from the loneliness experienced in the meatspace, social interaction through the internet is a reality and its importance grows and grows the more the Internet dominates the meatspace's social reality. Whether that's bad or good, I don't know.

>>14711 It is being redefined, and we are lonelier than ever apparently. It seems clear the virtual social interaction just isn't enough

>>14712 Yeaaah. Virtual social interaction is like kicking dead whales down the beach balls. Almost everything we do with technology is like kicking dead whales down the beach balls. It's hawked as being advanced and innovative, efficient and convenient--but it's inferior to other ways of doing things in almost every respect. It's convenient for the owning class. Always ask "convenient for whom?" when some new innovation or disruption of the human condition comes along. A lot of social software is just a contrivance to let silicon valley douchebags rent-seek the human condition and put a toll booth on the phenomena of social contact and friendship. We get almost nothing out of it, but we can avoid talking to somebody face-to-face or not have to get up out of our chair a couple times a day, so we roll over and accept it. Rest assured that the quality of our social interactions will go down and isolation will go through the roof--it's the only thing to expect when a free natural resource like this gets tapped and exploited. Software is fuarrrking trash and a handful of well-intentioned engineers are ruining the world for everybody, totally secure in the delusion that they're actually doing profound good. I know I'm probably being actively hypocritical right now, but the programmer mindset is bizarrely arrogant and patronizing; go look on Hacker News (ugh) and see all the smug assholes asking how they can best save the world as a software engineer. They think the world needs their saving, and only their heroic innovations can save it. It's almost a religious conviction for them. But we're enslaved by our fetish for innovation. Every new development tightens the ratcheting mechanism of modern civilization a few clicks tighter, and it'll never loosen. We can't uninvent the things we're building today. And we get caught in this false conviction that we have to innovate our way out of tech's problems with even more tech, because that's the only thing in our restricted worldview that we believe could offer solutions.

>>11974 >Preventing your kid from using the web is the best way to get them ostracized and turned into social pariah. This is true, and is an illustration of exactly what's wrong with social networks. They started as options, but they aren't options anymore. They rapidly become mandatory, and then monopolize socialization. The newest generation won't ever date without using an app like tinder, and even now people around 15-25 don't consider it appropriate to date in real life. They only accept approaches on dating apps. That happened virtually overnight, and nobody seems to notice. It's extremely strange. Zucc said it himself, that he didn't know why people trusted him with such a fundamental part of their lives. They're "dumb fuarrrks," as he said. And back then it was nothing, just a few college photos or whatever. Now there are whole countries where you can't apply to a job anywhere without submitting your CV or resume through facebook. Can't pursue love without forking over your sexual habits to the marketing machine learning bastards behind every dating app. Can't keep up with friends at all without being on every major social network. To abstain is now analogous to dropping out of society entirely. It's never a big deal when it starts, people just say well read the TOS and if you sign up it's your choice. But it's never a choice for more than a few years, then it's the de facto way to live for everyone. This is kind of untrodden territory, but it doesn't take a prophet to see how it could go haywire. Without pushback, don't you think they're just going to keep carving up major portions of our lives and forcing us to pay them to lease it back again?

>>14715 >and even now people around 15-25 don't consider it appropriate to date in real life. I don't think this is true. Sure, there are some people out there who'd date online, but I'm in that age range and everyone I know (myself included) would only consider dating someone in person and would never even think of using an app.

I am 30 pounds overweight and I can still pull chicks in meat space. Keeping kids away from the modern web, video games and TV actually helps to develop a conscious awareness which is real useful later on in life for avoiding depression, anxiety, addiction and what not. Consciousness naturally makes interdepence easier (companionship, connection, communion, etc.) Relationships are also stronger when we are aware of the precise reasons why we choose to build them. Many kinds of distraction-entertainment discourage consciousness. I think 99% of TV characters I see use language that denies responsibility before committing acts of violence or kindness. They will say stuff like "I had to do it. I had no choice. They forced my hand. That's just the right thing to do. I was doing my job. It's my duty. I'm an alcoholic." People who say such things are not conscious why they choose to do certain things and thus are more likely to use force in situations where non-violence is perfectly suitable. They also don't appreciate the actions of themselves and others when such language is used which can lead to weaker relationships if neither person knows how to do self-appreciation and are thus relying on the other person to send an appreciation that will never arrive. So consciousness in general is a helpful thing to cultivate and TV videogames and the modern web are kind of built around preventing the consciousness revolution. (Tangential: Children have a surprisingly animistic view of the world. I remember I used to think my night light had a soul and I would try my best to take care of it: unplug it when the sun comes out, put it in a special drawer, thank it for keeping the monsters away)

>>14716 Maybe it's different from region to region? In any case, it seems to be the trend and refuseniks are the exception to the rule. Glad there's a sizeable amount of people you know that resist that crap.

>>13656 Nice reference to Boa's Duvet at the end. >>11965 Recently I watched this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjtpQWDmEqw&t And it touches upon how a lot of the community has misunderstood Lain's themes, glorifying the "wired aesthetic" and the ever growing potential of digitizing our social lives, while the show itself seems very against this ambition, showing it's potential for social alienation. For example, the anime shows that most children have become desensitized by the internet, seeing things with irony and acting like small adults. School girls see a shooting and just laugh it off as a joke. At the same time though, Lain does grow on the internet. She gathers self confidence and a sense of identity, something that the first episode's Lain didn't have. As >>11982 said, depending on how one uses these escapist mediums, one is able to acquire social and personality skills. So the anime, just like this thread, shows nuance in it's message, even though the anime seems to look at things mostly negatively, especially considering that Lain gets rid of the wired in the end. >>14724 >I think 99% of TV characters I see use language that denies responsibility Yeah, unfortunately, a lot of media comes a culture that is not self-critical. It promotes the status-quo, after all. Hopefully the consciousness zeitgeist comes sooner than later, so this skill can just spread as a meme naturally without much need for guidance or effort, and we can stop worrying about it. We will also get higher quality TV too if that happens.

>>14728 This is off topic but, I think SEL has surpassed a certain level of popularity among the general public where now it is easily recognized as a trendy "cult classic" piece of fiction. It's reached the level of notoriety now that inevitably leads to remakes/reboots and/or sequels. It's sad really. Out of touch hollywood types will pick it up and make, what in their eyes, is an updated version that people new to the series will regard as the primary source for SEL. It is not farfetched. It's happened to so many similarly niche underground franchises recently. Both western and eastern. It's a matter of time.

i've isolated myself from my surroundings at the age of 11 due t o lack of interest in the people surrounding me, the things i enjoyed, the way i enjoyed them and the reasons were totally different. more i spent time by myself and more i got specialized in the things i was/am interested in, it became harder and harder for me to create basic stuff like small talk with people around me. i can't do small talk, i can't just go and ask stuff that i don't genuinely care about. internet being the only place where i can actually interact with people who are specialized in the things i'm interested in makes it harder to actually try to interact with people to a degree where my mentality got bent to thinking that literally everyone irl is some sort of low level human being unaware of many things. so yes, it deepened my loneliness.

>>14728 I agree with your statement of Lain using the internet to grow inter-personally while others were more or less just socializing, doing secret taboos and just using the net solely for recreation. I sort of am the same. Of course I spend some time surfing these IBs or gaming and I am sure Lain wasn't above that herself, but I mostly see tech and news articles on my news feed. I get updated on Marijuana and Hemp law by facebook. I get notified of organic farming seminars and the fda's breakthrough finding for Ketamine, MDMA and mushrooms. I look up how to fix my car for the cheap or to make circuits that will benefit me. I used to waste hours on MeetMe. I forget what it used to be called. And then there were random social media sites that I joined just looking for community. There are so many ways to waste your life away infront of the computer or just as many ways to build yourself up and improve your life in ways you never imagined.