Romantic Relationships

For the longest time, I was constantly trying to find a partner. A woman, who would always be a part of my life during the successful times, the failing times, the good, and the bad. Of course, this sought-for woman I searched for was never found, and she never came. Then came the second phase; I was entangled in incel culture, and hated the the typical 'Chads". I hated women because they over looked me, and hated men for being better than me. Then the next phase, the whole mgtow mentality. I tried to not think of women anymore, and tried going my own way alone, engaging in new activities and hobbies. I began losing weight, took up more outdoor sports, and started purposely learning new things (including another language and other skills). Now, about a year later, I'm still a virgin, never had my first kiss, and never experienced 'young love'. And now, I just feel indifferent to it. Now, I really don't think of it. I can't tell if I could have been happier and I missed out on something, or if I am truly happy now without never knowing it. I feel like I've evolved into the worst depression imaginable, and yet somehow became the happiest joy at the same time. I make a ton of money working, even though I do hate the job. I lost a lot of weight, but feel no more attractive. I learned so many new skills and continue to improve on my Spanish, but I feel like none of these learned skills have any regular application in the real world. I'm still single, but hell, so are most women I know. Most women around me are swallowed up in dept, kids they cannot raise, and all fatter than whales. I missed something. Somewhere down the line, I didn't get want I desperately wanted, and now I'm not sure how I feel about it in my later-life. I feel so indifferent to it. I don't even think about it anymore, really (until I made this post). I quit thinking about the inform, mgtow, incels, women, all of it. Yet, I'm still no happier without any of it.

>Most women around me are swallowed up in dept, kids they cannot raise, and all fatter than whales. Sounds to me like you are just surrounded by typical Americans. you could always try moving to someplace with a similar worldview to yours, if as you say you have funds and there is nothing holding you back. it is easy to caught up in patterns of though because they are similar to your own. conforming to one standard or another provides humans with a sense of belonging. getting caught up in the incel/mgtow/normal person movements is just part of how humans bond with other humans. to be honest having a partner is not always the best thing there is. the better option is finding someone you can be friends with for a long time, because there is mutual respect. being healthy should be for yourself, not to try to peacock yourself to women. the "whats inside that counts" is relevant to long term relationships, and if someone is only interested in your appearance or belongings, they are not committed to the relationship. The real question is why would you be happier in a relationship than out of one? (inb4 sex feels good) most people think they have found what they want in a relationship, then end up unhappy single parents, it is a self destructive lifestyle that is condoned by technological advancements such as hookup and dating sites, though ultimately aside from a few moments of hormonal rush, most people will not find happiness in a partner. you seem like a good person, so take it from someone who is a virgin going on 30 (tried dating, but never got close enough to anyone, one girl did kiss me, but it didn't feel like it was genuine) you wont be happy unless you find someone who can mutually respect you and appreciate you as much as you can them. most people are selfish, and will not appreciate you like that.

>>10230 >Sounds to me like you are just surrounded by typical Americans. Deep south, too. I'd like to have another person to share my time with so I'm not so constantly bored, but hell, I'd probably still be bored anyway. I've been on Tinder for a little while, and that soykaf's a real mess. Anyone on a dating site/dating app is there for a reason. I'm going to be one one these ruggedly attractive old guys, living the senior dream, and doing it entirely alone. In a way, its a good thing, but in another way, I'm terrified of what's potentially bad about it.

>>10233 >Deep south, too. what state? i spent some time there a few years ago. I know how bad it is, glad I moved... every place has its downsides, but some are more manageable >I've been on Tinder for a little while, and that soykaf's a real mess. It's like that everywhere in the US. the worst of it is in areas with a high college student population, I feel like I loose brain cells just looking at people on there (I of course do not use my actual information for fear of scams or doxxing) >single mother, my baby is the only thing i care about >young and adventurous, looking for hot guys (6ft+ only, also posts picture of underage drinking in profile picture) >if you cant appreciate my body i dont want to talk (picture from 6 years ago where they were only 50 pounds overwieght) >I want a stable relationship (should read i want a guy with money and i only like assholes) because most of them always complain about the vast number of douche bags they previously dated, old habits die hard as they say >"fur babies" every woman I have ever seen on tinder has met one of the above criteria, hardly "relationship" material

>>10235 >what state? Georgia Every point you just listed is EVERYTHING I have seen in EVERY profile, bio, or picture! That's spot on with 100% accuracy.

>>10236 pic related not your types eh? If you are really set on meeting people to associate with, and it sounds like the pool of candidates is near 0 currently, try going to volunteer organizations, you might meet some nice people who care about more than themselves.

>>10237 >you might meet some nice people who care about more than themselves. Not OP or the guy you're replying to, but I want to chime in and say that volunteering at local businesses and getting involved with community organizations is a great way to expand your social circle. Personally, from my experience, frequently visiting the library has enabled me to meet great people. It started with befriending the librarians, then I was introduced to their manager who allowed me to volunteer and help the library with various tasks. After that, I through the people I knew at the library, I was eventually involved with a lot of community projects. Just getting out of the house and going to the library one day eventually lead to me being a well known community figure, and most people in town know me. Its the greatest feeling in the world to go anywhere in town, and have an entire family greet me and talk to me. Start anywhere you like OP. This isn't a race; there is no starting point, and no finish line. Eventually, you will find a woman just from the social circle you develop, and by that point, it won't even be necessary anymore.

>>10235 > underage drinking in profile picture I just hope you called the ATF and reported her.

>>10240 Why? I mean, what is that really going to accomplish?

you know women are just humans right OP? id feel pretty fuarrrked up too if I spent so much time and thought around something not all that complicated, and I certaibly have done that. Yeah though you are missing something possibly. I mean your missing something by not interacting with anybody but when its straight up not interacting with half the population over a very character defining trait your missing maybe some perspective or insight only a girl could give you that would really help you grow. Maybe not but I just dont see how its possible you arent missing anything by not interacting with girls does that make sense? Whether its big or small whatever but certainly something.

>>10255 actually just a thought most on chans would benefit greatly if they talked to girls. And not just talked but really got close to and made a friend of. But its a lot easier to not trust/value experience and completely understand everything off internet words and not have to REALLY change anything.

>>10256 Unfortunately, being able to get out of my room is a higher concern right now than being able to have a relationship. Talking to people is easy. It's just nihilism that makes everything suck

Im 29 soon and im in the same boat despite being told i look attractive, but my foul geeky character wins only interest among druggie dudes. Its biting me up the ass sometimes, usually smoking away those bitter thoughts does it for so far. I have just recently a friend of mine break down for the similar reasons as OP, its never a happy sight, but there is nothing you can do other than standing idly and trying to comfort that person knowing exactly its of no use. I have some rather personal reasons way beyond elaboration for being able to go on like this, you just have to find a way swallowing down all that bitterness of life. The only decent advice i might be able to give you is to remain focused on what you really want out of life and continue to pursue it no matter how impossible or absurd it may seem at the present. The pain feels real but why would it be real, so why give into it. >>10256 I bet a lot of channers would like to talk to girls, but the girls wouldnt want to like talking to them. Joke aside lets be honest those things can never happen. Even i who pass as halfway attractive and somewhat interesting with minimal social skills could never talk to a girl unless im forced to by conditions, or should say have no real reason to.

>>10249 Do they have sarcasm or hyperbole on your planet? I thought 'omg underage drinking' sounded hilariously conservative and wanted to make light of it.

>>10256 People wouldnt be on chans if they had a healthy enough social life to talk to girls

I've stumbled into every romantic relationship I've ever been in. People like me once I start talking but apparently I give off a very "I don't want to talk to you" vibe. And it's true, I'm terrified of social interaction.

>>10272 this is true for a lot of people honestly. Like for example if everytime you looked at someone they looked away you definitely wouldnt think they like you. If you sit next to someone in class and they kind of scoot away in their chair a little your gonna think "wow i guess they think i smell bad". These arent even the best examples. But in general most expressions of anxiety are identical to expressions someone gives when they want you to fuarrrk off. To OP and others its some extreme empathy but try to have it. "How would I react to my own body language and expressions that come from anxiety".

"O vast boredom, how exist you on this map of opportunity? where free the multitudinous of possibiles non purpur await." >and I missed out on something in life are infinite opportunities, some of greater weight, so to speak, than others. sometimes the answer is single and obvious, othertimes it is single but not immediately obvious. othertimes the choice is from great incomparables (e.g. weal(individual/social(communal/regional/national/special/animal/vital/natural/physical//)) / furthering understanding(mathematical/philosophical / empirical/technological)/creativity(mental/sensual) / the perfection of character(material/spiritual/psychical/lyrical) / /) >I can't tell if I could have been happier i suppose the only who can know is you, and the only way to know is by knowing yourself, what makes you happy, how happy it makes you,, and for some such questions, you might need to have sample experiences yet unknown to you from which to construct your model of those parts, those aspects, of your reality and your self.

>>10269 Men with unhealthy social lives = chans Women with unhealthy social lives = Facebook/Instagram/social media

>>10300 >Social Lives literally flapping some wobbly bits in a long fleshy tube to move air molecules in order to wobble some wet bits in another fleshy tube on some one else's head to try and convey information and or have a shared experience. >so called unhealthy social lives This all sounds like a very inefficient and disappointing solution to me. I would argue the wobbling of fleshy bits is more unhealthy and more likely to promote the spread of disease and death than purely electronic stand ins for the same activity. In fact, the speed and accuracy of communication that typing on traditional keyboards, or perhaps on modified high speed ergonomic keyboards allows is far superior in pure performance terms, in addition to having virtually zero biological health effects. Additionally, the greatly expanded range geographical range and longevity of digital communication puts it easily an order of magnitude beyond the vocal flapping that most ordinary humans practice for communication in their immediate surroundings. Finally, one finds that technological development outpaces genetic evolution by a significant multiplier in terms of the rate of bandwidth and feature expansion, empirically, one can see that technology has developed(not independently of biology I might add) at about 5 orders of magnitude faster than genetic evolution when making a conservative comparison of development over the last 150 years in technological terms, versus the 5 + million year time span of merely human evolution. One could not have come to be without the other, but perhaps in an instant, evolutionarily speaking, the creation will surpass the creator.

>>10236 >Georgia It sounds like you've got your soykaf together Try church You can even say you've saved yourself for marriage Land a younger girl there, be her first too, and be happy together

>>10279 yeah. Ever since someone told me that I always seem to not like anyone I've been trying to smile at people and make small talk but it's so hard. >>10308 >christian girls ew

>>10306 it's cause you romanticize technology and one understanding of the world in the same way futurists did in the past. like your being very reductive (not to mention in a biased way) with everything you say so likewise you get a reductive biased conclusion that irl social lives are more unhealthy. I could be equally reductive and say who do you think kills themselves more often people with real social lives or people with only internet ones. and im sure you can think of too many things to even mention wrong with that and im looking at you the same way.

>>10300 >Men with unhealthy social lives = chans >Women with unhealthy social lives = Facebook/Instagram/social media

>>10335 >late 20s, steady job, no debts, AND virgin? >challenge accepted You know some Spanish You can do the mission work thing too Mainly tho, you fall in with the Church, and now you got your crew all over town Everyone protects their crew You can become a very influential person with church Strength in numbers you know

Cringiest thread ever to be posted on lainchan. Congrats drb.

>>10355 you must be new here.

>>10269 This is completely wrong and a dangerous, self-destructive attitude.

>>10360 >"channer unhealthy socialization" destructive attitude agreed. i chan for anonymity, i lainchan for it's smallishness, philosophical taste. why do you chan, lainon? why do you lainchan?

>>10362 I like Lainchan because it keeps the culture and spirit of /g/ (which is long gone on 4chan) alive. It is very active and the mods dont keep shy from purging the cancer that wants to destroy the sites culture and make it identical to their own soykafholes.

>>10362 not him but i chan because its home friend. grew up with chans, its not a part of my life at all anymore yet is so much. I dont really tell anybody because I dont see any reason to differentiate it from rest of internet, and so I describe it to normal people like "Because I was raised by and developed so much through the internet its like my hometown". Question though dont you think the anonymity might be what contributes to the antisocial chan man? It makes not having to be socially accountable at all seem like a right, and rather then remove identity people just project a fuarrrk ton to build identities for anons during an argument/discussion. I always know someone visited chans if irl they make massive judgements and count people out because of some small thing like a hobby they have or show they like.

>>10365 I have had a similar experience as you. Other people will never really understand how it is growing up close with an internet subculture.

>>10362 i like chans because they respect my privacy and have a sense of community than big social media sites like facebook or twitter.

>>10365 the "antisocial chan man" stereotype is because people who want anonymity tend to not be very attention-seeking. Or at least, they want attention just not attention that is linked to their person. That lack of attention-seeking behavior makes imageboard people come off as quiet and weird.

>>10372 Imageboard people are some of the biggest attention whores on the planet. What do you think brewing soykaf/trolling and all those "rate my music / desktop / room / anime 3x3 / vidya 3x3" threads are about?

>>10373 yeah but it's not tied to them personally. Outside of one thread, there's nothing to tie an identity together. Different kind of attention whoring altogether

>>10362 I don't care about chans for anonymity for two reasons, first that it's pretty trivial for a motivated state-level adversary to figure out who I am on them and also that any controversial opinions or content I wouldn't want attached to a personal identity aren't something I would post about on a chan. There's other safer formats for this in my opinion. One thing I like about chans is the format. How quotes are linked, how media is attached, how easy it is to scrape/access/post is really convenient and something I'm used to. It's a lot like a protocol and it's lasted a long time and has a lot possibilities for variation. It's even been adapted to smartphones really well. Additionally there's nothing but content -- No ads (maybe not on other chans), nothing in the way of posting, and only information that's absolutely necessary. Now specifically about lainchan, the culture and content is really nice. There's a good mix of bright young people figuring out our weird post-9/11 cyberpunk reality and some older people that have some good experience and ideas to share. Plus the content sharing threads (pdfs, music, etc.) have been a great way to expand my digital library and learn some new stuff. That physical security / lockpicking thread has been really interesting. The zine is great too and encourages more creativity than the average chan. The posting style is great too, on 4chan you usually don't get people asking questions in subthreads like >>10362 and conversation changes a lot because of it. Also there's a good culture of getting a certain kind of pointless political discussion away from this imageboard that you might see in other chans. In my opinion political discussion and anonymous posting are a terrible mix since politics is intrinsically about status, reputation, and reputation. Plus it'll always turn into propaganda. It's one thing to plan action by anonymous methods but in order to organize you need to know who you're talking to and what they've done. I could go on about how great lainchan is but it really feels like my home on the net now. >>10229 But hey to get on topic, I'd recommend OP focuses on making friends before making romance. If you meet people, you'll eventually meet women through them. And in my opinion one of the most important things a girl will look for in a guy is what other people think and say about them. Keeping this in mind, find every possible way to make social interactions easy for the other people and keep them smiling. Find any way to help someone, treat them to a meal, teach them something, make them look good in front of others, etc. and the favor will be returned 10fold in the future. This is easier said than done and something that has to be learned through experience and reading. Read all the way through "How to Win Friends and Influence People," look up the "SIRC Guide to Flirting," and chapter 4"From the Soil" (ISBN 0520077962). The latter is about chinese society but the chinese concept of "relationships/guanxi" has a lot of application to developing a social self.

>>10350 >becoming a church leader in any organized religion requires significant theological study, probably not OPs interest >becoming a cult leader do I even need to explain how wrong this could go?

>>10376 Speaking from experience, becoming a "church leader" doesn't require theological study, not even significant. It just requires organizational competency and a good standing in the church/community. There's a lot of non-theological things that need organizing, such as hiring staff, paying staff, accounting, taxes, organizing events/allocating rooms, making decisions, coordinating the construction and financing of new buildings, etc. If you play music you can do small stuff like pre-service music or work with the choir. Churches at an administrative level aren't much different than non-profits. In fact they are considered in the US as 501c3 charities. So these leaders will take care of this overhead, typically for free or a volunteer basis. But of course if you put some work in you'll be considered a "church leader" and earn a bit more respect in the congregation, but this isn't really the reason you should be chasing these administrative positions. And to loop it back to OP's original subject, since you'll be spending more time with this church, you'll meet more people and friends and therefore women, if that's your objective, see >>10350. He might mean the capital C Church of the Roman Catholic Church, and if you're Spanish you should probably fall into that. Don't misinterpret and strawman the original comment and propagate this whole "every church is a cult" meme when you speak without experience on the subject.

>>10374 what is and what is perceived are different. its not like you dont know your posting. just because it doesnt make sense doest mean it isnt how it is, humans arent always logical. I dont see it as any different in terms of intention.

>>10375 agreed at friends. and in my opinion that person has to eventually be a girl, which can be met through guys. completely block off possibility for romance, like to the point where your like "even if she grabs my dick its not happening". You need this extremity otherwise its a slippery slope. In this way you can not be anxious, be like the gay friend of a girl thats straight. In my opinion if your getting anxiety around only your preferred sex or its more intense its because you are worried about "messing it up". If you remove the possibility you stop seeing it as a purely giving dynamic where you want to impress or prove yourself to them, at which point the focus becomes an unclouded "would i enjoy having them as a friend". Then you will judge girls not as girls (and with it all the anxiety inducing conceptions) but as their character. Once you have done this like in any friendship you explore the other person, and you will then be able to accurately distinguish what makes a girl a girl (on average). Do you get what im saying? Theres levels to it, you can understand something from secondhand information, then observation, the next is through interaction, and lastly from being. What this spectrum implies is that the earlier things involve you understanding as a projection and then it moves to understanding as that thing. A general fact is girls are feminine, but understanding that as it is portrayed and understanding the processes behind the portrayal are two entirely seperate things. Only in a friendship can you understand the latter and otherwise you will never relate to a girl and if you get a girlfriend it will be like as many now and especially the generations before us do where their existence is only vaued for the surface feminity projected. Thats great if your a dummy and like dumb girls cause it goes both ways with a guy being just his masculinity and protector to the girl. But your no dummy OP, youd get bored or even irritated with a girl like that. Whats even the point if both people find better connections with their friends, its just a sex/status/security thing at that point. These people are missing out on the very deep special connection that even just in friendship a guy can make with a girl. So start there, until you can see a girls character and personhood over your anxiety and perception of girls you shouldnt be looking for GF. You may end up making a huge commitment to someone you wont even like.

i'm a girl and have lot of friends and yet here i am. it's is entirely possible to have niche interests and be social too.

>>10424 Don't perpetuate this meme of all people on this board being worthless anti-social neets. I have friends offline and I know for a fact that others do. This guy sure does >>10402 I'm starting to think this sort of posting is a pointed attempt by one or two posters.

>>10424 I have lots of druggie friends and other sorts of fuarrrked up associates, its pretty cyberpunk if you ask me.

>>10430 >I'm starting to think this sort of posting is a pointed attempt by one or two posters. Even if lainons with friends exist, thinking back to the show that ties this site together makes me think rather poorly of your hypothesis (specifically as you gave it). Social isolation is a prominent theme. As usual, assuming other posters to be essentially similar to oneself (in this case, well-connected in meatspace) is not necessarily the best strategy.

>>10233 different poster be careful you should be able to quench your boredom without bringing a woman into your life souley for that reason. if you cant find interest in life by yourself, it will probably end up in a unhealthy relationship. but if you feel like your ready for a gf for different reasons go for it

>>10423 but do you have a lot of friends or a lot of "friends"?

>>10436 on second thoughts who am i to judge your intentions. you do you lainanon

Ive given up on ever having a girlfriend, i just wish i could stop feeling hurt about it

>>10433 > Even if lainons with friends exist There were rumours about "friends" in the early days of the wired but even if such phenomena were once real, all trace of their existence has been scrubbed.

>>10432 Assuming youre not trolling, im suprised you didnt become tainted like the rest of us were. Yes its possible to be social and weird, but not likely and will take effort and lots of luck. >>10438 People can be so double sided even if not, in my limited observation meaningful social relations are a rarity. People like us are somehow profoundly different than others in some way, i dont know how to describe, its just hard to really connect with others. >>10460 One day maybe not far away the world will change and might just find something that can eliminate the suffering. And dont forget to love lain!

How do i live with knowing I'll have to settle for some busted old woman if I ever do get one at all? I'm almost 27 and I'm too old to go after the 18-22 year old college girls I actually find attractive, and don't have any dating experience at all so it just seems futile.

>>10504 Girls that young are lame in bed anyway. Not only do they not know what they're doing, more importantly they don't care to put the effort in. Looks aren't as crucial as experience.

>>10499 >People like us are somehow profoundly different than others in some way, i dont know how to describe, its just hard to really connect with others. nobody is really good at connecting. That's the dirty secret they never tell you about being "normal". Just "normal" people are better at superficial connections.

>>10506 I'm just really bummed that I'll never get a chance.

>>10504 You would do well, I think, to remember that you yourself are also aged and aging. You don't have to make peace with "busted old [women]." You have to find a way to handle entropy, nothing less. Beautiful, wonderful people become irreversibly twisted as little mechanical errors accumulate until the countermeasures are overwhelmed. Incidentally, I think everyone here would do well to remember this process as they assess the value of "romance." There seems to be a prevailing attitude that once you "find "love," you ascend to godhood or something instead of growing old and dying.

>>10510 I'm just mad the time was stolen from me while on psychiatric drugs as a robot. I missed my chance because I was too drugged down to ever take it. I need to find some way to let the anger go.

>>10504 >I'm almost 27 and I'm too old to go after the 18-22 year old college girls If anything, you have a better chance being 5-10 yrs older There is something else wrong with you and you are blaming age You probably have a low prestige job and/or fat/ugly/unattractive Those are the usual culprits

>>10509 You're not yet 27 and think 22 year olds are unattainable? Seriously? That's not a significant age gap. I've dated younger while being older. >>10515 I'm chronically underemployed and am not especially good looking. I've certainly never hit the gym. That hasn't stopped me from dating but you are probably right in that there is something else wrong with him.

>>10519 >>10515 I'm starting from zero, that's what's wrong with me. I don't even know where to begin

>>10520 Well now I feel like a dick. Basically you have to be engaged in social life somehow, involved in some activity where you will meet people. Having a sense of humour helps. Being a nerd and having weird hobbies and interests aren't a deterrent unless you keep talking about them to people who aren't interested. Guys will tell you you need to be successful, have a nice car etc but it's BS. That only attracts a certain type, and there are other types. I'm not going to feed you some drivel about how there's "someone out there for everyone" but most of the reason people fail is that they have preconceived notions of perfection that no other person can ever meet. There's definitely someone as lonely as you out there though. Go read Dr Seuss' Sneetches only rewrite the ending in your head. Instead of whining about how the sneetches with stars didn't invite the starless to their BBQ, imagine the starless all get together and have a big orgy without the starred ones being invited.

>>10499 I don't know how to read the optimism in this post in light of the chosen suicidal imagery.

>>10526 I dont either but i live a crazy life, once i embraced insanity and absurdity of this so called life i felt so much better. You just have to learn to tune in and drop out, keeping your hopes up despite being in a seemingly hopeless situation and not worrying about things while still keep moving forward is key. Sometimes i think the drugs made me completely mad, somehow i found myself in a realm beyond rational reality and i love it. Dunno what to say, was just trying to cheer someone up.

>>10229 Is it wrong to go after "easy prey"? I found myself considering approaching a girl today based on the idea that she isn't conventionally attractive and thus probably isn't used to attention, which seemed as though it would boost my chances of success. This was not the sole motivation (I find her appealing for other reasons), but this mentality seems a bit disturbing.

>>10546 thinking about it like that can be pretty toxic, but no, there's nothing wrong with preferring conventionally unattractive girls. They tend to have more developed personalities anyway.

This discussion makes me wonder what female lainons think of males. It seems that many males on image boards in general seem to have plenty of half-baked ideas about the opposite sex (because of little exposure?), and I don't see why the psychological factors that produce this phenomenon should only act on males. Basically, I want to hear an undersocialized girl's rant about "what men are like," completely ignoring all the nuances involved with half the human race, as usual.

>>10546 Honestly, I have found conventionally unattractive people a lot harder to approach because they aren't used to the attention and either don't know how to respond or don't even realize you have an interest in them. It's sometimes hard to even get them to make eye contact or respond to a prompt for conversation. Despite being not much of a catch myself, some of my exes were the sort of "hot" type that were sought after by everyone. At least it was possible to make initial contact and let them decide if I was worth it. Don't underestimate how debilitating a lifetime of being told you are unattractive or unwanted can have on your outlook. Thinking about people as "easy prey" is a bit fvcked if you ask me. You could think of it like, she isn't very high on the social totem pole but neither are you. There, you already have one thing in common. Part of the reason so many people are lonely is that they simply can't find a girl like the ones in their anime or a man like they were in those old B+W films. Real people are never that perfect. Convincing someone who is not conventionally attractive that they are so in your eyes can be tricky but it's a real rush when they start to believe you.

>>10566 Maybe I should clarify. I'm interested in her personality, not her looks. Also, the sexual component is a low priority. I don't think I could tell her she was hot, but that doesn't really matter, if you understand my meaning. Maybe it's more like I just didn't feel as intimidated as I probably would have otherwise.

>>10546 I dont know anything about girls so i will not make any absolute statements. I think ugly girls have needs too and chasing after them might even make them feel appreciated. However friends wiser and more experienced than myself said some very attractive girls are also easy pray simply because they are so hot most guys are just too scared to talk to them. I could certainly imagine this being true in some isolated instances in todays world, needless to say finding those is like finding a needle in a haystack. Also do not forget mentally ill girls, tempting to me, but from what i hear its a horrible idea. I also got told a lot by gay friends that i look very attractive and also that looks matter, but it seems to me like no girl ever since i left school over 10 years ago even seemed to show any interest whatsoever. Back then i was severly scared and traumatized so i couldnt even counteract their interest, now im so apathic and bored i mostly just avoid women in any way i can as to not get involved.

>>10546 Their unattractiveness doesn't make them "easy prey". Online you will find many models and the like that are conventionally very unattractive and yet are confident and seen as icons of beauty. Contrary to the belief of many here it's not just some feel good lets make the ugly person feel pretty thing because I and people I know find some of these people very attractive. It's that they carry themselves well and play to their uniqueness and strengths. Thus as I say they aren't always easy prey. A lack of confidence or self worth is what makes easy prey, neither of which you could probably learn much from.

>>10566 I've found most unattractive girls are convinced they haven't found a guy good enough for them. The stereotype about ugly girl with impossible standards is real in the US at least. Dating websites are full of them.

>>10578 Not dissimilar to some men though. Keep in mind ones only picky when they feel they can afford to be, thus said ugly girls probably can or have gotten men equal or slightly better in terms of attractiveness. On dating apps its not uncommon for even fairly unattractive girls to have equal matches to an average guy if not more. So her standards are going to increase if there is already 100 other guys she could access and your not more attractive or don't stand out in some other way. People are pretty shallow on dating websites mainly because you kind of have to be as a filter. I think it may be more common with women though as you say mainly because lets face it guys (i am one as you probably assumed anyways) will put their dick in almost anything. Lots of guys if you gave them a choice between sticking their dick in a girl they found unattractive and jacking off they would choose the former. If your a pretty typical guy you might be thinking of fuarrrking course anyone would. But my experience with girls has been that they would not do the same, even if you made the choice more polar with "fuarrrk ugly man or dont fuarrrk at all". Often they'd choose latter. In fact this is pretty zany and crazy but some girls even would rather not fuarrrk a guy they DO find attractive but don't find attractive personality wise. This might sound like a whole lot of "girls are less shallow" nonsense but I can actually give you a pretty specific reason. Sex is quite different for your average girl in that the typical relationship places them on the submitting end. So while the average guy can see the ordeal as just masturbation almost, this is significantly harder for the average girl who also has to factor in the act of submission. Would you as a guy submit to somebody in any form that you don't respect, and genuinely submit not in a playful sex type of way. In those instances the guy still ultimately believes usually (just think about it for yourself) he can stop the whole thing at any time and doesn't really feel responsible or endangered at all. Think genuinely giving control over to the other person. Even if you are alt right/meninist/whatever boy and don't think women are trapped or more vulnerable in sex many definitely feel that way and see it as a personal reality. I know you weren't specifically talking about sex, but often on things like dating websites people are, even if its not their main goal, looking for hookups. And also sex will be on the mind when thinking about a relationship, and for most girls I know it's more important than it is for most guys I know as girls seem to have more difficulty/get less enjoyment out of masturbating. >tl:dr while the average guy will settle for most holes he can stick his dick in, a girl even when settling still has to feel comfortable/respect the guy because of their innate perception of sex (on average on average on average). Many girls would have a hard time even putting this into words and probably just ascribe it to the guys appearance or some kind of aura/vibe. But it in my opinion and some people have agreed with me, is why girls tend to have higher standards. They probably would settle but only with somebody they knew in person who had a personality they saw as "respectful". It's also not respect in a traditional sense, its very unique to women from what I've gathered but if you understand what i'm saying you can probably empathize enough to conjure it up. A good analogy that brings up the feeling would be who you would extend a kiss/make out with maybe. I'd wager your standards for that are actually higher than your standards for sex, while for girls their standard for sex is above that usually. And as stated sex is usually always being considered when thinking about relationships.

>>10579 A1 post lainon

>>10578 The first real girlfriend I had was 24 (I was 19) had only dated two other guys and only had sex with one of them before me. She wasn't ugly, she had a cute face but she was very short and definitely on the heavy side. It isn't that she set her standards so high out of a sense of her own importance but from a fairy tale view of the world which most people grow out of but she never did because of social isolation. Her hobby was classic film and film soundtracks and she was obsessed with these old movie stars like Jimmy Stewart. Again, it's not that she thought she was too good for average men, she had a very low sense of self-worth actually. But she had a charmed vision of romance as she thought it should be for everyone which was based on these Hollywood stories, a vision she nurtured in her imagination over the years. Her female idol was Marilyn and she tortured herself for not resembling that star more. It was awful because for the most part she was a very sweet if shy girl... until I tried to break up with her, and she started started stalking me for months. It's not any different from imageboard dudes with a "waifu" who are holding out for some impossibly perfect woman. Even the source material isn't that different, as anime and classic films are based on all the same templates and tropes anyway. How many of those dudes are potential or actual stalkers too? There are plenty of voyeur pics and threads on NSFW chans.

>>10579 >Would you as a guy submit to somebody in any form that you don't respect Do it every day. My boss is an idiot. So is his boss to him. Yours is too if you're honest. Most people do it to satisfy their urge to eat.

I wen't to college with the sole purpose of making the best friends you could. I ended up meeting the best person I have ever and more than likely will ever know and lived with her for a bit less than a year. We ended up getting to know each other as well as anyone could, family in every sense but blood. Just saying it is possible. But I will say 95/100 people I met were useless to me. It sounds harsh but its the cold calculating mindset that let me find and focus on the best possible friends I could find. I wouldn't change my outlook for a second, it has done everything I wanted it too

>>10585 and it's humiliating and terrible, right? And if you had the option, you would not, right?

>>10591 Is that why women drop out of the work force? Too insubordinate.

>>10583 >It was awful because for the most part she was a very sweet if shy girl... until I tried to break up with her, and she started started stalking me for months. I hope I'm not prying too much by asking this, but I'm really curious about how this whole ordeal went. Not that I don't have an idea of what these stalker girls are typically like, but usually when you hear stories of them they're presented more as a joke or a cheap scare than anything else. >>10565 If female anons specifically are what you're wondering about, I think that simply by being exposed to imageboard culture for a long enough time they start to think more or less similarly to the male users. And if you think the same way as someone, to save yourself from self-hatred and cognitive dissonance, you'll probably develop a positive, or at least accepting opinion of them. Their view of men, or at least these certain 'introverted socially-unadapted shut-in' types, should be accurate enough, since there's no lack of exposure here - you can assume that the majority of the posters are male, so the assortment of opinions and personalities that you see here is what you get. If a woman were to be exposed to places alike to r9k exclusively, her view of men might become quite cynical, but in reality it's easy enough to find men with completely different worldviews to dispel that illusion. As for undersocialized girls influenced by internet culture in general, the types hovering around tumblr certainly seem to fit the other side of the coin.

I took a leap of faith. Asked a girl from class out to coffee, probably fueled by the spontaneous purchases of Black Friday. Texted her on fuarrking facebook, without being "friends", waiting for the replys made me feel like Dosto's Raskolinkov in the madness, but O the sweet joy when she accepted! Nervous as fuark, afraid I might spill spaghetti n meatballs, or the coffee... Wish me luck, and remember lainons you can also do it! pic is my favourite jap

>>10608 For starters, most of what you think of as the internet today hadn't been invented yet, and no one really had cellphones, but she did have a car and I didn't. I had never had a full time relationship before this. When we started dating I told her if she ever came by after work and the house was dark, throw pebbles or snowballs at my window. This is cute when you are young and in love and think your dad doesn't want you to have girls sleep over (turns out he didn't give a fck but that's another story). It's not cute when you tell someone it's over and they refuse to accept the memo. She searched out every place I was likely to be and often found me. The library I'm typing this from right now is the largest one in four provinces and is my hiding place from the world. Twice she systematically searched the place and found me, implying she did this on other occasions and was unsuccessful or I just wasn't here. She camped out at the cafe my friends went to. The worst was we volunteered at the radio station and she had a legit reason to be there and I could easily avoid seeing her there, but then found excuses to be around during my shift as well which made doing live radio difficult. I started to get stomach aches, headaches. I could have just screamed at her, that would have worked actually but kept thinking it's somehow not her fault, she's really a good person, just emotionally retarded, etc. Generally anyone who gets stalked and doesn't take action is making excuses for the stalker and this goes for men and women. This went on for months. Finally the manager of the radio station, her best friend and my worst enemy, intervened when I told her about it. She framed it as a favour to me but really she just wanted her best friend back. Either way, it stopped. The morale of the story: don't wait for him or her to go away, and don't place pity for them over your own safety or sanity. Do something right away.

>>11128 it's hard. I've never been able to do that sober.

>>10565 It's unfortunate.

Thanks everyone in this thread for sharing their insight, it has really helped me in changing my view. I share a lot of the pain of having "missed out" and in the end I can only blame myself for my passive nature. But, I will work hard to change it. Last year has been a wholesome mess but I've made steps forward and I would like to share some of my still limited experience. a few years ago I was a NEET and socially isolated, I managed to learn programming and through some help got myself a job, that was the start, I let go of the mindset that I'm a loner or hermit by nature, a mindset that grew on me as a sort of coping mechanism. Now recently, getting more financially stable I went looking for ways to improve my life further and my social situation plays a big part in that, I too dream of getting a girlfriend and maybe even starting a family but it's still very far away, especially having zero relationship experience, I must work on that harder than ever before. So I figured it'd do me good to expand my interests, I picked up drawing as an "excuse" to meet people. For almost 2 years I managed to draw every single day, fueled by the idea that if I got good enough I could go out there and meet others and share thoughts and ideas. If things went well I could even make a friend and I'd have the drawing experience as a nice backup to keep conversations going. Well I went to a few figure drawing classes and talked a bit with others, which felt like a first time, I never really went to seek out other like-minded people outside the internet but it was a good and necessary experience. Still far away from any sort of relationship but I want to keep going, I still need to learn the basics of social interaction but I have been avoiding that for the longest, which keeps me insecure at times. I can't help but stress the need for a shared interest, if there is none I find it almost impossible to really connect with anyone. But besides the few figure drawing classes I'm still alone most of the time, I'm looking for other ways to get out of the house but I'm not really sure how. I really wish I could experiment with women more, just the basic social interaction, but right now there are none in my tiny social circle nor do I meet any on a regular basis.

I have trouble with having sex with people. ive been offered and I usually just am like oh im kind of inexperienced id probably be dissapointing and then they agree and we dont. some retard might be like "dude fake it until u make it" but like thats retarded. im not trying to waste peoples time its really not that important i can just jack off. my therapist said anyways that until i do some intensive therapy I might be making a smart choice by avoiding intimate romantic relationships. i need to do a lot of work on myself first. we will c.

>>11229 I think you've got a misconception about what sex is about, it's not a test to see if you can pleasure your partner. It's just something you do to express your desire for each other, your partner is going to want you to enjoy yourself just as much as you want them to enjoy it. By no means will it be perfect first time around but just pay attention to what reactions you're getting and try different things, worse comes to the worse you just basically have to ask while disguising it as dirty talk.

>>11229 You might find someone who was into that though. Hopefully not by "breaking you in" like it was earning a fresh scalp but in a more gentle way. Some enjoy being the guardian at the gate who welcomes new people. Personally, I'd be too nervous about damaging anyone who responded to flirting the way you seem to. >>11230 This. Don't be afraid to ask what the other person wants. Too many people are.

>>11171 I'm in the same boat lainon. I have trouble meeting people, but usually if there's any shared interest(I have many interests, which is good) I can keep a conversation going at least with jokes. I mostly rely on my housemates for my social life, if I weren't friends with them I'd probably only talk to my old buddies who now live hundreds of miles away. I'm not too worried. I've already got a relationship or two under my belt, I know more or less what to do, I'm not unattractive, there's no rush. But at the same time sometimes the thirst is maddening and I'll go on tinder. I don't expect to actually meet anyone irl from there but it's good to know that I can at least get cute tinder matches.

>>11230 >>11231 i've had sex before i'm just not good at it, and im very open to discussing what we are into and what im into and what girls i talk to are into are never the same so it just doesnt happen.

>>10229 As for the first paragraph, the same thing happened to me. But I’ve found a certain indifference and strange happiness like you have by different means. I feel like I have been purified by the hatred of it. As though I have become so low and hateful of myself and everyone that I have come to love it solely by being so completely focused and aware of it. I feel like it doesn't make sense to do this, but I feel compelled to, like an addiction, to embarrass myself in this way. It’s like I care more about thinking than living. Dostoevsky talks about this especially in Notes From the Underground.I find it fascinating that people have been obsessing over the same types of ideas for hundreds of years. It really makes you think about the future of humanity.

>>10233 get out of deep south rural areas if you can.

>>10265 why can't you talk to them? too nervous, too autistic, or just unable to connect with them over interests?

Lains, I need advice. There was a girl I fuarrrked around with a few months back, our relationship was never well defined, very sexual in nature though. At the time I was going through some really bad mental soykaf so I really jerked her around emotionally, but then right when things were getting better she broke it off. She couldn't even give me any reason why, and to this day I'm confused and hurt about it. Recently we reconnected. Mostly sending memes at each other and stuff. I don't want to be that guy who can't let his ex go but also, I'm really thirsty right now and I do not have the time for dating or social life. Wat do?

>>11400 I should say, it definitely wasn't ~just~ sex, there was emotional intimacy as well it was just hampered by my aforementioned mental health problems

>>11332 A little bit of everything, plus im weirdo far away from reality.

I am now living in a major university city (not going to the university here though, but the same age as many of the students)... I work late hours, but sometimes attend events at the school when I am not working. Some college grils have invited me over to parties a few times, but I dont really see the point, and at worst, I dont want to get in trouble for underage b& drinking because of teen drinkers (not legal in my country). There are a lot of QTs in the STEM school though, but I dont know how to approach them. And I also have no experience talking to grils I dont either work with or have known for years (my last GF was a close friend of mine until she moved and we lost touch with one another, and I never mentioned my relationship to my parents or friends for fear of being judged). I dont particularly want to be in a relationship, and am still a virgin, but the social pressure of being single is stupid (my mom makes jokes about "not wanting me to be a wizard or 40yo virgin" and apparently gossips about me to girls my age... and my dad told me he would accept me if I was gay, which is his way of saying that it is weird I am still single). I guess If I knew how to approach people instead of sitting around, I would probably get more enjoyment out of relationships (the only person I regularly associate with is a neet who lives down the hall in my apartment block) sidenote: any advice asking out asians who are only in the country for school and dont know much engrish?

>>11424 >any advice asking out asians who are only in the country for school and dont know much engrish? be very direct

>>11424 I had a long(er) thing typed but il just be straight with you and you can ask for explanations if you want. 1. I think you have a barrier to intimacy that involves actually knowing and understanding the person. This is a good thing in my opinion, its a problem because you don't understand women exactly. 2. Many men also don't but have a certain developed (fake honestly) code to dealing with women. It's only broken down once they are actually together, and either they get lucky or more likely it ends in a breakup/divorce depending on how long they kept that soykaf up. 3. You should make friends with girls first and not even see them as potential gf or anything. That includes weird masochistic thoughts like "she will never like me though..." or "dont fuarrrk it up!" (as if there was anything there with someone you are just meeting). nope no get it out of ur brain you dont want her to like you period. If you have to pretend shes a lesbian do that. This is a very useful skill and will also help you deal with rejection because you will be fine just being friends after. 4. I had a huge paragraph typed here again, i'm just going to put it at I really advise you don't ask out a foreign (i'm assuming) Chinese girl. I think you are probably a bit odd, maybe you feel lonely or isolated sometimes, like all of us here for the most part. For one The sort of china girl who wants white man usually grew up in what would be akin to middle american christian household here. Two its one of the most foreign cultures to somebody in the west, you won't have anything in common. Not in a "wow we are so different" way, as in you can't even describe the differences because she doesn't have the concepts in her life vocabulary to even have a disagreement or difference on sometimes. If you feel isolated now you will feel 10x more isolated when the person who should understand you the most, your partner, doesn't even understand you.

>>11444 my trips tell the truth. but no I actually just wanted to say i'm not saying any relationship with somebody from another country speaking another language is a weird unhealthy thing. I just think in the posters case it would be. I think if you already kind of have healthy views of relationships and have been in a few it can work great. But people describe said relationships as a "challenge" for a reason, and so if you are already challenged why jump to that?

>>11400 >>11402 well, update, I asked her point blank why she broke up with me and she refused to elaborate. I guess I know where we stand now

When people ask why I don't have anyone yet I keep saying that I'm better off alone or that I don't want to date anyone. Lately I've been thinking otherwise. I might be ready to date again. Haven't dated anyone for about four years now.

>>10269 I got laid by going to chans.

I think I have some kind of psychological block in place that prevents me from seeing women as ordinary people (in the same sense as other men) no matter how often I interact with them. In my head, they're angelic, or at least "other" in a slightly mystical sense. How do I fix this, Lains? Is this hard-wired for heterosexuals?

>>11492 there must have been a door there in the wall

>>11492 Most of the guys I know who see women as "angelic" can instantly flip to the opposite where anyone with a vagina is some kind of weaponized alien succubus from hell the moment they realize that women are actual human beings with flaws. No it isn't hardwired to us either. I guess it helps to have girls who are just buddies, or to have had a sister you were close to.

>>11492 no. Once you really get to know a woman you'll realize, the main difference is that they are kept up to higher social standards. Women fart and poop and pick their nose too, they just hide it a lot better.

>>11517 At their core. Everyone has a scat fetish.

>>11526 r-right guys? *looks around room nervously* hahahahshs i was just k kidding hahaha

>>11514 >or to have had a sister you were close to I have a sister I'm still close to, but it's like she "doesn't count" or something. It's completely irrational.

>>11532 I should have mentioned that the absence of the effect in the case of my female family members supports my theory that this is my sex drive messing with me.

>>11534 That's a very lucid observation, you may be right. At least this Lain, >>11494 who I recognize was only making a joke, was probably off then. I don't know how to help but it's probably a good sign that you are thinking about it rather than turning into some raging lord of kekistan instead.

>>11535 I didn't understand that Lain's meaning and still do not. Were they not referring to the door behind Shinji in the image I posted?

>>11538 It's a line from Pink Floyd The Wall. That album and film have both been criticized for the main lyricist being incredibly clueless about women and his personal problems with them (and it's nothing to do with the generic rock 'n' roll shtick about hawt babes or anything like that either). Like I said I don't think it applies here.

>>11539 what, really? I've never heard of anybody whose actually listened to the whole album and seen the whole film(so few people have it's kind of crazy) making that criticism.

>>11548 I certainly haven't heard it from people who never watched the movie. In high school they were my favourite band. I had the t-shirt and owned the video. Looking back, I see it quite differently and yeah I definitely think the guy had some issues with women. It's been a long time but the last time I watched the movie, that was what I was thinking and no, nobody inserted this idea into my head. I don't like the album musically much anymore so I'm not biased in his favour that way either. ...still listen to Dark Side of the Moon about once a month though

>>11555 can you point to any reason why you think Roger Waters has issues with women based on that album?

>>11556 actually, now that I think about it, it's pretty evident

>>11556 More the movie than the album, which I haven't seen in a very long time. Like the evil school master is only beating the children because his wife is mean to him at home! Gimme a break. Pink's wife cheating on him, were we supposed to feel bad for him over that? He was bringing groupies to his hotel room and she was probably sick of his shiznit in general. The whole thing with his mother in the trial.

>>11559 >>11558 >>11555 >>11548 >>11539 >>11538 >>11535 it was a reference yeah. all i meant was that mental blocks are created and he should look to why he created it for an answer, not to be all psychology 101.

>>11560 i also just want to say i resonated with the poster a lot and in a bit of a darker way maybe. i too place women on a very high pedestal and it stems from a relationship with an older cousin. nothing weird just a regular relationship that i lost and tried to recreate in future ones. a few succeses led it to develop into a system where with women i had to be inferior and forced into sexual acts or else i didnt like it. not that that exact thing will happen to him. just i dont think this idea of women is good and so i wanted him to "find a way out" before it metastisizes. im still working my way back through the mazes i layered on top. see people as equals if you can, not lesser nor greater.

So how do you guys go around and meet new people? I've been living as a hermit far too long and now I have no social circle besides a handful of family members and no clue on how to create one. This is still the biggest hurdle for me, I really want to change, get better at socializing and find a partner but I don't know how or where to meet people since I've never really done that.

>>11563 its pretty simple u start taking drugs and fall in with the wrong crowd and eventually you just are friends with ur lil crackhead group so now you can go to AA meetings and rehab groups and stuff and bond over how u used to be addicted to drugs boom friends for life.

Just ended my first relationship. It lasted just under two years and we're still friends, but nothing more than that. I get the feeling I won't bother with another one, it's just too hard for me and at the moment I have more important (life altering in the good way) things to get done. It was a nice experience, but I don't think relationships like that are for me.

>>11514 >Most of the guys I know who see women as "angelic" can instantly flip to the opposite where anyone with a vagina is some kind of weaponized alien succubus from hell the moment they realize that women are actual human beings with flaws. This makes it sound like bpd. Which I can relate to.

>>11778 Well, I wouldn't describe my problem as bpd-like. It's a pretty constant impression that lacks the volatility bpd is known for.

>>10229 I can relate to this. I went through a similar (some slight differences) thought process as I evolved from the absolute confidence in finding a woman who I could love and would love me, to slowly but surely the very sobering understanding that women are not in the least looking for the same thing that I am. When I was a young boy, I didn't even consider the possibility of not finding a good woman and certainly was unaware of the massive challenges many men, including myself, are facing. I passed through the same phases, inform, mgotw, ect. but I eventually found them to be an emotional response instead of a solution. I read a book called "Shyness and Love" which opened my eyes to a lot of things that maybe I was avoiding to recognize. All the while, of course, I have remained single and without sexual experiences. The realization: men need companionship. Even in the Bible, scripture says that women were created for man. My dilemma is that I want to experience a "pure" love, without the risk of financial ruin and heartbreak. I want to experience the kind of love that I thought existed as a young boy. I have a few ideas that I am working on as a "solve" which I hope will be successful. However, as Frankenstein sought to create a human life and created a monster, I will still consider a relationship that is a slightly twisted version of my original dream to be a success.

>>11795 >My dilemma is that I want to experience a "pure" love, without the risk of financial ruin and heartbreak. no risk, no reward. Love is temporary always. It might last a day or a lifetime but it's always temporary. Enjoy it in the moment, and it's a nice memory.

>>11795 The ex-girlfriend who stalked me (see above somewhere) had exactly the same ideas about love only the genders were reversed. She spent her life watching cheezy old romance films and then tried to insert me into the picture, which didn't work. >My dilemma is that I want to experience a "pure" love, without the risk of financial ruin and heartbreak. Well I skipped the first by ruining myself financially. I can honestly say that no woman has after been after me for my money because there never was any. As for the risk of heartbreak, you don't get around that one. You could meet the girl of your dreams and marry her and then she develops untreatable bone marrow cancer at age 30 and get to hold her hand for 2 years as she withers away and dies.

>>11797 >You could meet the girl of your dreams and marry her and then she develops untreatable bone marrow cancer at age 30 and get to hold her hand for 2 years as she withers away and dies. Better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all, amirite? Not that I have a clue about love, I've been living a solitary life for as long as I can remember.

>>11810 Better or not is a matter of opinion. My mother died when she was younger than I am now and my father never dated again. He died 30 years later having known only one woman intimately (she was his first and only). I guess that's the real thing in the storybook form that many people think is only a myth and for people like my stalker girl, will probably remain a myth. Was it worth my dad's time with my mom if it left him with three decades of misery? He'd say yes, I know that.

>>11795 It might be appropriate to note here that the usual conventions of "fairy tale romance" were invented, as I understand it, relatively recently in Medieval Britain (and maybe France; I'm not clear on the particulars). Consequently, it may be a mistake to think of them as "timeless" or "ideal" in the Platonic sense. Further, I'm inclined to think that people find this conception of romance appealing because of its ultimate vagueness. They are attracted to it not by the princesses and castles but by the nonspecific "happily ever after." It is appealing because it promises something wonderful beyond the dreamer's imagination (precisely because said dreamer doesn't know what would make him or her happy). Think of it this way: the future may be considered abstractly, but the present must be lived concretely. If you can't give a strict definition of "true love," then you may be better off listing the concrete benefits you could honestly expect from a relationship with another (merely human) individual and then treating the set of resulting benefits as your desired "love." As a side note, I suggest that you watch Evangelion if you haven't done so already. Its model of human relationships is, in my experience, compelling and perhaps even illuminating, if initially...disheartening.

Guys, help me out, those of you who have started relationships before. I seriously don't know how this works. I don't have huge problems meeting or talking to girls. But I don't know how to take the next step with a girl I'm interested in. I can get to the point where we're by ourselves somewhere, be it at a bar or hanging in one of our place's. But we'd be just talking, and I don't know when I'm allowed to take a next step, and what such a next step would be.

>>11830 I think the best advice you're likely to get, based on the given information, is that you should figure it out for yourself. You may get better advice if you give us all the relevant details, but otherwise you should expect lainons to project their own lives, feelings, opinions, etc. onto your vague description, giving you advice that isn't actually helpful for you in your situation.

>>11796 Very true; love can be distilled to nothing more than a complex emotion which half-life can be calculated and is indeed very short. I suppose the best way to describe what I'm looking for is a "bond" - not something totally reliant on emotion and something so temporary. >>11797 It is a nice thing to know that the woman in your life was there for you and not your money. Yes, heartbreak is a part of life it seems, and can even be a beautiful thing in some circumstances. It would be much less bothersome to lose your loved one to sickness rather than her "falling out of love" or any other reason which makes your hypothetical predicament much more bearable in my opinion. >>11829 thank you for your insightful reply. I will take your advice and watch "evangelion"

>>11839 If you actually watch NGE, here are my tips: 1.) Episodes 7-14 or so have a lot of wasted potential and outright bad moments. However, they also contain good, important moments. You can't really skip them, but know that things improve, for a certain definition of the word. The end of the series is very different from the middle. 2.) When you finish the series, watch the finale film The End of Evangelion. It's pretty much the key that unlocks everything else. 3.) Don't expect too much. While I got a lot out of it, you'll probably be disappointed if you go in expecting a heavenly revelation (a cruel angel's thesis, if you will). Some people get nothing at all, but I would expect the users of lainchan to be unusually receptive. After all, Eva and SEL are often compared to one another.

>>11829 I second this whole post. Love and romance were arguably better when they had obvious economic implications to the involved parties. Unfortunately, the days of marrying for status and wealth increases and being honest about it up front from both sides are pretty much over in the western world. It is likely best to figure out what you want in a "merely human" partner. Set realistic expectations for yourself and for them and define your "love" as those realistic expectations based on your achievable desires. Do your best to develop some concrete measures of those expectations, so you can quantify mate quality and let them know how well you can meet their expectations as well. If they insist of the "magic of love" approach, it is likely best to drop them, or provide them with some developmental materials and a timeline for consumption. Love is a bit like gardening. The melons require lots of water, nourishment, and care, before they become mature and delicious plants. Ultimately, how sweet they are, and how full they become is determined by the work the gardener puts in before hand, and how well prepared he is for the realities of growing such finicky fruits.

I got married and had a kid early on. Things soured a few years in. Now we are separated, and I had to dig myself out of five years of depression and loneliness unlike any other. Relationships can fuarrrk you up, and set you way back. And in the end, you end up feeling slightly worse than when you started, provided things get worse. Just live your life.

it doesnt make sense to act like relationshis as a whole are fabrications, constructs, or traps as that has little weight nor does it matter. Ego could be considered a construct and yet it has existed a long time now and that doesnt make it any less real internally, and when it comes to these sorts of things thats all that matters. Even if you think you should remove the ego, relationshops, social obligations or realize its fake that implies the removal of something that really existed in your brain. I also think its silly to believe thats superior somehow, different strokes for different folks. the hardest thing about relationships in my opinion is seperating physical attraction from something being a good idea. i have a friend shes almost like my sister but sometimes i get dumb ideas in my head because shes cute. however shes really cold and hard on all her boyfriends and im very not so it would be a terrible idea. Then another soykafty thing you have to deal with is realizing what you are capable of vs what you want. She could probably hook up with me and it wouldnt be an issue for her but as much as id like to id get really attatched and itd be a mess. She knows about my past history of weird abuse stuff so never would which is frustrating but also very wise of her. I can convince myself in moments I could totally do that only to in the long term destroy a friendship because I know id continue to want that level of intimacy and if it dipped at all id freak out.

>>11870 >it doesnt make sense to act like relationshis as a whole are fabrications, constructs, or traps as that has little weight nor does it matter. Ego could be considered a construct and yet it has existed a long time now and that doesnt make it any less real internally, and when it comes to these sorts of things thats all that matters. Even if you think you should remove the ego, relationshops, social obligations or realize its fake that implies the removal of something that really existed in your brain. I also think its silly to believe thats superior somehow, different strokes for different folks. What makes it real according to that logic is beliving that it is real. Just as much as ego is a notion we hold on to for the sake of itself, its not much more than a default setting and can be thrown out the window. Which is pretty much how i see things, after all the memories of my soykafty dreams and what i saw on tv arent much more real either. Relationships are just a way to satisify biological needs no more than eating or sleeping. We just use one another and pretend we really need that, but its only the idea of it that perpetuates the need. We dont need relationships, we only need the things produced by them and we lull ourselfs into artificially produced state of pretending the relationships themselfs is what we need to reinforce our own guilable sense of safety.

>>11871 No not exactly, that would be correct if you could simply "stop believing" its real but that isnt the case, its quite a process which can be simplified to that if you want to be reductive. its not like santa where someone can come in and completely shatter that belief just like that. Even during an ego death usually what follows is a rebuilding of it. And as I said whether this removal is necessary is entirely up to the person and there isnt a right answer. If they do choose as you should know its not exactly an easy process as it isnt just waking up one day and blinking and realizing everything is an illusion.

Looking for opinions, please bear with the text So there is this girl in class who has seemed interested in me, we never talk while in school just glance at eachother. I randomly asked her out by text to which she agreed on. The date proceeded nicely, though I may have blabbered a tad too much. We talked, and laughed a little though it was awkward so we took turns staring out the window in pauses. When we later parted I asked if she wanted to do something similair again, she replied with "it dosen't really matter". Maybe it was too in the face for an answer and question, I don't know, but it turned me down. The following days in school we didn't talk either and the chat was at halt since then too. I figured she wasn't interested and texted her that it was a nice time but that may have been enough and she later agreed. But, hereafter she started to glance at me and be more talkative in the class (not to me but generelly) while I ignored her. Maybe she is shy or want to fill me with envy. I also discovered that I'm likely to have aspergers, something that makes this even more frustrating. What do you think, should I ask her out for a second time? How do you (fellow) autists survive romantically?

>>11893 I know a few people with aspergers who through some therapy and reading on psychology are pretty succesful in relationships. Some of the seemingly socially detrimental traits come off as as someome whos very stable and reliable which some people like. You didnt do anything wrong, you didnt really do anything right either. I wouldnt ask her out again id just let it be. I doubt her being more talkative has much to do with you, the only possible connection is she hadnt been asked out before and she feels more confident now. That was really bold of you to ask her that I wouldn't ever just off glances but that doesnt mean its a wrong move. It sounds like both of you were pretty awkward, maybe you even less so as you did a lot of the talking it sounds like. Im not sure how old you are but if you are in highschool still people will be a lot less weird in college. If you were talking too much they might just up front tell you that which is kind of uncomforting but nice, akward silences wouldnt be nearly as awkward as people are more mature and dont get in that "oh my god theres a silence i need to say something" mindset. But yeah I wouldnt ask her out again, even assuming she is shy and avoidant is that something with you as someone potentially with aspergers needs? You dont want to be with someone who cant make their intentions clear and communicates in weird glances that are hard for you to interprate id imagine. There is plenty of girls who can be very upfront and clear so you dont need to waste your time amigo.

>>11893 Ah, so some people go out of their ways to tell you that they have had a nice time without actually wanting to see you again. This explains a mystery I have been puzzling over for months. I'm now beginning to wonder if there isn't some standard romantic lingo that communicates coded ideas. If so, I'd like a dictionary.

>>11871 >We dont need relationships, we only need the things produced by them and we lull ourselfs into artificially produced state of pretending the relationships themselfs is what we need to reinforce our own guilable sense of safety. in a very real way, we do need relationships. Isolation is psychologically harmful. Humans are social animals, we need people we can be close to. >>11893 I've been there lain. It's so hard to continue conversations, or pick up social cues correctly. You should ask her to clarify, over text. If she stays cryptic, you should just drop it. In the past I've relied on text communication to get that kind of thing across because it's easier to craft what you say to be exactly what you mean. She might be going through some stuff, or she might have the same problems as you. No way to tell, and as >>11902 said it's not good to be with somebody who constantly confuses you.

>>11902 >>11907 Thank you both for some good advices, I think I'd better let it go as you say. It's most likely just infatuation, hopefully. >>11906 Well, I try to be as nice as I can most of the time and dressing an honest message in a humble way seems to work. Less chance of hurting any party while being clear, Two flies in one sandwich as none might say. And merry christmas lainons!

I'm just so tired of being alone.

>>12127 Being in a relationship, which I'm assuming is what you seek, will not fix your loneliness. It may even amplify it.

>>12128 What DOES fix it?

>>12190 Only you can fix it. Not other people. The idea is to not depend on others to fix your own issues. You need to realize you're never a

>>12191 You need to realize you're never alone!

>>12190 Finding value and purpose in yourself. You may even reach the conclusion that your value depends on other people, but you must be aware of it. Otherwise you'll always be off, wrong, unfit. Being in a relationship when you don't understand yourself is worse than doing crack. Far, far worse, and likely more deadly.

most modern men, especially those exposed to incel culture, are incapable of being happy in a real relationship most people in general are taught to look to a romantic partner as a source of happiness and fulfillment which is a lie that ruins relationships - that stuff comes from within, and no human can bare the weight of responsibility for another's happiness. on top of that there's constant mental conditioning through media and pop culture that teaches men to be unsatisfied and hate women men are taught to have far higher standards than are realistic, especially physically. hyper-sexualized images of women are inescapable and not all are up to the exhausting task of making themselves look as fuarrrkable as possible at all times, and many men don't even realize what they've learned to find attractive is makeup and bodies that are contorted, angled, and even surgically altered to look appealing. then there's the nonstop rhetoric that marriage and relationships are traps (even though men seek them out) men watch tv and movies as boys then try to find a relationship expecting a girl to either be a manic pixie dream girl there to entertain them or some emotional sponge there to listen to his feelings and share in his interests but rarely is she viewed as a whole person. unless you realize this and try to unlearn it, you're going to be continuously disappointed for the rest of your life if you keep seeking out relationships and love

>>12274 >men watch tv and movies as boys then try to find a relationship expecting a girl to either be a manic pixie dream girl there to entertain them or some emotional sponge there to listen to his feelings and share in his interests but rarely is she viewed as a whole person. I don't disagree with the overall point. Relationships are for making a home and children, not for personal development. This however is not fair to men. It is a very common situation in relationships for women to elevate their feelings above those of their partners and demand a lot emotionally, also without viewing them as a whole person. Much negativity towards women comes as a response to their behavior, not some irrationally hateful conditioning from an external media.

>>12275 >Much negativity towards women comes as a response to their behavior, not some irrationally hateful conditioning from an external media. the point I'm making is that media conditions men to expect irrational behavior from women (among other things). Because men are also conditioned to believe the stereotype that men are more rational than women, they tend to believe themselves to be above question and never engage in the self-reflection necessary to realize they've been conditioned that's why we have this culture of men vocally proclaiming that no woman will have them and not the other way around. there is no comparable-sized female equivalent of the incel movement and foreveralone boards are not filled with bitter women

>>12285 >the point I'm making is that media conditions men to expect irrational behavior from women (among other things I rarely seen a women that exhibits logic behaviour and lots of people i know confirm that. Theres lots of soykaf comming from the media, but most women being not capable of reason is hardly one of those lies. Though i guess a lot men are pretty stupid too, the solution to me is to just avoid such people and leave them to their own fate.

>>12285 Well it's only partially true. Incels exist because men are the ones who chase for sex. Men as the privileged sex are unsympathetic to women who fail or want something, because men already fight for those privileges for themselves. It's a misunderstanding, apathy, and ignorance of women, not about perceived rationality. Or it's misogyny from personal issues, such as past rejection.

>>12274 I agree with some of your points, but men's expectations of women are already at all time lows and hitting new lows on a consistent basis. Continually lowering expectations solves nothing. The undeniable truth which can be verified through an almost endless list of sources is that men are getting less and less out of relationships, mainly marriage. I'm not saying a women is responsible for any man's happiness, but surely anyone can see how getting less and less out of a relationship is not conducive to a happy relationship which is a pillar of happiness, especially when expectations out of men has stayed the same and arguably increased.

I just want to be someone's rock. I want someone who knows I'm simple... just want to see them happy, to hold them and kiss them. Someone who understands that I don't really understand them and is okay with that.

>>11841 For further advise on the subject check out the flash-based NGE dating sim

>>12285 Gender roles are asymmetrical, why would you expect incel populations to be anything else? Men are supposed to pursue women, not the other way round. It's much easier for a woman to find casual sex than it is for a man, because all a woman has to do is scroll through her suitors and pick one out. Look at Tinder, look at Ashley Madison, look at... Christ, just about any dating/relationship scene. Male thirst is off the charts. The lack of female incels isn't due to rational introspection, it's because it's so fuarrrking easy for a woman to find dick if she wants it. Obviously gender roles lead to a whole bevy of problems for women, including in relationships, I'm not trying to undermine that. But the specific problem of nobody wanting to sleep with you? That's one for men.

>>11587 He's joking. Druggies are rarely good people. Don't do that.

>>11796 It hurts but it's true. However there's different kinds of ends. It's different for you to part ways because she ded, or because she prefers tyrone's dick. Not the same eh?

>>11830 Women like it when you take initiative. Even if feminist types will lie to you and say that you should treat her as you'd treat a man. Women like men who are assertive. Tell her you like her, hiss her. Touch her hand, make it clear that you're interested. Know how to respect a "no" though. There will be plenty of those too. But there's no trying without failing.

>>12300 I'm not too worried about that any more.

>>12301 The following rant got out of hand and targets a specific demographic that might not fit you specifically but can be relevant to the rest of the thread and imageboard people in general, specially incels. "women" don't like soykaf nigga, humans like assertive people. Saying dumb ass soykaf like "women like men with iniciative" only creates more insecure dumb fuarrrks who think PUA is a religion that will free them from celibacy. The oldest, most useless yet most accurate advice on planet earth stands: be yourself. Would you rather deal with someone with a complete, developed personality with distinctive tastes and preferences or with a lukewarm little bitch who tries to shapeshift himself into whatever they think you will like? Not even romantically, let's say you're playing final fantasy 14 and there's 2 acquaintances. One of them doesn't have a class yet, the other is a bard. You need a healer. The bard really enjoys playing bard and specializes on it. The other is trying to get in your guild, so sure, he'll half assedly level a healer for you. Which would you rather take on your fuarrrking party, the lukewarm little bitch incapable of making decisions, or the bard that while not exactly what you want, at least has the decency to make up his fuarrrking mind? This is true for everything, work, lets say you have an insanely good R programmer, but you need a javascript programmer. It's easier to find a way to make his R solutions work with fuarrrking web assembly than to bother teaching a fresh out of college fuarrrkstick to design software properly. See, the problem with all you bitch ass hikkikomori niggas is that you keep thinking that your attempts at flattery make you a nice guy, and that the chads get pussy specifically because they're dicks. It's not that they're dicks, they're just remotely honest, while you "i-i-i'm totally a l-l-leo too haha" goatfuckers aren't. It's better to fuarrrk a honest piece of soykaf than a sniveling childish limp dick garbage who views himself as nice just because popculture told him so.

>>12338 And for the record, being a hikkikomori introverted/shy/even feminine men is also acceptable and attractive. The problem isn't in introversion, but in lack of a fixed, developed personality. Being sure of your own personality will get people on your dick who actually enjoy being all over that sweet dick, versus pathetically trying to be a caricature of a jock when the closest you've ever got to snorting cocaine was cleaning your room in christmas '93. Be proud of who you are, accept that some people won't like it, but that's true of all personality types.

I need an advice lains. I know this one girl for couple of years, we were meeting for some time in the past, stopped but still hang out but in the meantime we were meeting with other people so it was just a friendship. From time to time we end up kissing or cuddling but nothing serious. I know that we could be together again but the problem is I still don't know if I want to. From the one hand I know her pretty good, like her, she accepts me as I am, we don't feel awkward around each other but from the other hand we don't have that much common interests, when you think about it and I'm more like introvert type who likes to isolate in his room, she is much more social. Also she is not exactly my 10/10 type but it's not that much of an issue. I know that I don't love her in the romantic sense of the word but looking back at my life I think that I never loved anyone and am not capable of loving. I respect her much though, we get along and always have fun but is it enought to build a relationship? I always thought that I will eventually find a girl who shares my interests and my worldview but more and more I think that it's not gonna happen. I'm 29 now, feeling that time is passing by and I'm still alone despite many tries.I don' t know if I have energy to look and also I'm not that good with dating. Being 29 also means that it's not that easy to meet new people as in the past. However I don't want to end up in a relationship just because I am too lazy to look further or am too afraid to try. Of course it could work out and I would be happy but there is no way to tell. One more thing is that lately I really have the need to change my surroundings and the people I know, change job and all that stuff. I feel that my life is in the dead point with no perspectives and I'm a little bit of mess with no energy to do anything, maybe even with a mild depression I don't know what to do with this girl. It looks that I am really afraid of commitments and one of my fears is that I will end up with someone I don't love so it's hard for me to do any move. What is the real chance that I will meet someone closer to me? Maybe I'm fooling myself and that's the best I can get? But again what if I start something with her and soon after I will meet mythical "the one"?

>>12339 >And for the record, being a hikkikomori introverted/shy/even feminine men is also acceptable and attractive Might as well say it's acceptable to be a neckbeard with XXL cargo shorts and poor personal hygeine. Seriously, shyness and femininity? Those traits are repellent to women, they need to be stamped out ASAFP if you want a relationship.

>>12343 On the subject of "are women real human beings with distinctive tastes and preferences or a rubix cube", the only provable argument i can make is "leave your room and treat people like human beings". There's also the argument that if you're creating a persona just to get pussy, you're basically selling your soul when you could just pay for sex and be done with it. Coming from the assumption that you're willing to portray another personality, clearly you don't have the intention of finding someone who appreciates you and fits within your lifestyle, you're just dancing to the song in hopes of getting some claps from the crowd, which is ultimately pathetic and leads to a pathetic lifestyle. Stereotype masculinity is a stupid concept, just like all personality stereotypes, if you don't naturally have it in you to be a masculine man, you shouldn't be. And if you don't naturally have it in you and you're trying to be it? You'll get some aberrations like zuckerberg, bush junior, rice gum and that pundit who is always smoking a cigarrete in his avatar picture but clearly doesn't smoke and looks like a kid who stole a cig from his father. Regarding attraction towards feminine men, just google popular boybands from the last 5 years. If you genuinely believe women are not attracted, you're just too detached from the real world. My point isn't that you should try to be feminine, my point is that you shouldn't try to be what you're not in general. Be proud of yourself and work on your strengths, it will attract people the appreciate you, not your lame ass lukewarm limp dick persona. >>12338 is a good an attempt as i'm gonna make towards explaining it. If you believe genuine personality traits are equivalent to poor hygiene, i can't really do anything about that. What i can guarantee is that if you're manufacturing a personality just to get pussy, everybody knows what you're doing. You're as subtle as a child doing a cosplay from scratch.

>>12341 >we don't have that much common interests That's not a big deal, i'd try it and see what's up. The hard part (she enjoys your company and you enjoy hers) is over, now you're nitpicking on details that might not really matter after some time together. >I respect her much though, we get along and always have fun but is it enought to build a relationship? That's literally all that matters in a relationship, you ain't in a movie fool, whitney houston won't start playing when you find your sweetheart. This girl seems perfect for a relationship, it might not last forever but you'll have a lot of fun, which..is pretty much all that matters. What else do you want out of a relationship dude? Get this idealized soykaf out of your head and deal with the real world, a relationship you already enjoy is knocking on your door and you're gonna pass that up in the hopes of what, 3d printing motoko or something? >I always thought that I will eventually find a girl who shares my interests and my worldview but more and more I think that it's not gonna happen. Nor is it desirable, man. Interests change, that's a horrible filter for a relationship. It's a romcom illusion that finding a girl with similar tastes translates into a good relationship. >One more thing is that lately I really have the need to change my surroundings and the people I know And, motherfucker, what is that right there? An interesting girl who enjoys spending time with you and has a different set of interests and a more active lifestyle? Goddamn my bitch it almost looks like exactly the kind of soykaf you need. >I don't know what to do with this girl. It looks that I am really afraid of commitments and one of my fears is that I will end up with someone I don't love so it's hard for me to do any move Chill the fuarrrk oooout nigga, this ain't a movie, enjoy what you have, soon you gon be dead anyway. You throwing a potentially fantastic relationship away in the name of schrodinger's motoko. fuarrrk the future.

>>12339 lmao >the closest you've ever got to snorting cocaine was cleaning your room in christmas '93. I can tell you with 100% certainty, snorting cocaine has nothing to do with how attractive you are. Everything else about this post is pretty accurate though. Worth noting: some people are just unattractive. Either because they're overweight or have a really ugly face *and* they're not nice people to be around. I've seen ugly ass people get girls, it's seriously just a matter of personality.

>>12343 This simply isn't true. There are plenty of women who are attracted to shy, even effeminate guys. Stop making universal generalizations based on what you read on the internet.

>>12343 Let's just look at the average waifu thread. Ok, so you have the guys who post their preferences for shy girls who like housekeeping and gardening, but there are also posts that say things like "I want this hunky Amazon to squeeze me with her muscles and order me around." I see no reason to believe that it isn't the same for females. If you need evidence, husbando threads within female-dominated communities exist. Stop trying to reduce the complexity of humanity to the simplicity of a herd of water buffalo or even a community of chimpanzees. It isn't that simple. It isn't without justification that we tend to think of ourselves as more than animals. Humans are complicated and diverse in a way that animals apparently are not.

>>12365 Exactly. I mean hell "women aren't attracted to X" is a simple disproof, it requires a single example to shatter it apart. So, take me, I am a woman and would LOVE to date a shy, effeminate guy. Being able to be important in someone's life, and help that someone feel safe and loved is an absolute joy.

>>12338 Being assertive does not entail any of what you assumed. But you're not wrong in what you say to some extent.

>>12343 you know it

>>12346 you want to be loved for who you are and I find that to be naive but still I cant say I dont understand but still... naive is what Id call you

>>12371 Do you have any meaningful argument to provide besides "you a poo poo face", you kanji typing motherfucker? My point is that you can't be anyone but yourself, and roleplaying as a stereotype in the hopes that someone will come along to give you head every friday night is stupid, weak and only leads to meaningless relationship where you will feel like a con artist (because you are). Not to mention the fact that you will only attract people uninteresting enough to fall for your PUA bullsoykaf. It's also not constructive, understanding yourself and growing as a person takes constant effort, if you spend a year in a relationship pretending to be bruce willis, you basically skipped a year of your life playing the sims. You're literally sacrificing yourself in the name of pussy, when you could just pay for sex.

>>12338 >See, the problem with all you bitch ass hikkikomori niggas is that you keep thinking that your attempts at flattery make you a nice guy, and that the chads get pussy specifically because they're dicks. It's not that they're dicks, they're just remotely honest, while you "i-i-i'm totally a l-l-leo too haha" goatfuckers aren't. It's better to fuarrrk a honest piece of soykaf than a sniveling childish limp dick garbage who views himself as nice just because popculture told him so. Hits the nail on the head. Being passive or sycophantic isn't the same as being nice.

>>12338 > "women like men with iniciative" only creates more insecure dumb fuarrrks who think PUA is a religion first of all you assume it's PUA only thing or PUA invented thing but this things existed before you think. I'm an italian assertiveness and taking initiative is our default behaviour, guess what rest of the world likes it, our women occasionally complain but that's just how women are. Judge them according to their behaviours and choices not what they say. Overall "you're perfect the way you are" "there are no gender roles" "taking initiative is bad " sentences are verses of modern global social media religion and I feel bad for anyone falling for those lies. Not to mention you people, by you people I refer the west except south europe has absolutely no tolerance for different cultures and different kind of behaviours. Stop trying to standardize the people, it's a terrible behaviour, it's an indicator for ones shallowness.

>>12375 > It's not that they're dicks, they're just remotely honest It's because they have their unique stance. I don't mean physical stance of course. sorry for doubleposting.

>>12375 They aren't lies though, lies to you because you live where they are. What a self centered statement hahaha. I really dislike europeans maybe stuff like this is why. I actually dont 100% disagree with your statement that "women like men with initiative" if it was "a lot of women like men with initiative". I just disagree with everything else you said or viewing the above as some fixed permanent thing because it feels like it is within your family and social groups. Specifically "Judge them according to their behaviours and choices not what they say". This such an egotistical god complex like thing to say. Im not even sure what your saying because your saying dont standardize people but then doing the same by saying "rest of world likes it". I dont think I or any of my friends would like you. Im not the poster your responding to and he sounds pretty stupid too but his post made me less angry so I replied to this one.

>>12378 It's safe to say I'm more likely to travel more than an american that never left his state and expect rest of the world to be like them.

>>12403 >I don't browse 4kanker either, since it's soykaf for long time. I... This is an example, a metaphor, an illustration of a point. Make some effort to interpret information, man. >improving yourself or overall somehow being better yourself is not falling a stereotype. My point is that mimicking behavior is not an improvement. Do you disagree? >Quote That means: "Do you believe that copying successful behavior from others is an honest expression of yourself and translates to self growth?" It has nothing to do with your interpretation of what i said. Once again, do you disagree? Since mods deleted my posts i will refrain from arguing like i normally would in another environment.

>>12375 Thank you for making sense. Also the Americans being imperialists surprises no one, but it's funny how the left cries about imperialism while exporting their soykaf ideas everywhere as if they were the truth as revealed by God.

>>12375 >I'm an italian assertiveness and taking initiative is our default behaviour yes, literally all Italians are the same. Thanks lain.

Has it gotten to the point for anyone else where you hate who you are so much that even fantasising about a girlfriend makes you uncomfortable? i think about how uninteresting, unattractive and generally soykaf i am as a human and that even spending intimate time with a girl would make me feel so uncomfortable,unworthy and like i could never be my true self, always pretending , like wearing a t-shirt 2 sizes too small or having a boulder on your chest. I have one friend at this point and just being around him makes me feel so soykaf, he's got everything i don't (GF,social skills, social life, wide range of friends, looks, style, charm) i never feel comfortable in my own skin and my inferiority complex makes me want to die. I just to live in my own head again but its evicting me

>>12447 Sounds familiar. My inferiority complex feels so deeply ingrained into me at this point that I'm not sure if getting rid of it is possible. No matter how many good things I occasionally come upon in life, I can't help but do my best to find a way to scramble and distort them into something antagonising. It's a sort of a vicious cycle, unfortunately. Getting into a relationship while in this state of mind will eat at you until you sabotage it yourself, no matter how accepting and thoughtful your partner might be at first, but getting rid of it without experiencing all the things you're "missing out" on is pretty impossibly difficult.

>>12448 I often sabotage my own friendship with my only friend, he knows he's my only friend and i feel he's just pitting me like a sick puppy but i shouldn't feel that way, i know if he didnt give a soykaf he wouldnt try to be close but i can help it. Im cold to him often and dont respond sometimes, why am i doing this. Im just so lonely and i just cant keep going like this, i destroy everything i have i dont think i could love a women who could love someone like me, id be suspicious that it was a rouse or that shes hiding something

>>12447 >>12449 This does sound somewhat similar to my own situation. I also have only one friend (who seems to be slipping away), and I seem to be losing more of my ability to comfortably interact with others all the time. Further, if I list my pros and cons, it begins to seem as though I'm not currently at a point where someone could have a meaningful, satisfying romance with me. Given the diversity of human mindsets, it's likely that someone could enjoy a romance with me, but that enjoyment would seem to have to come from something like masochism, so it seems illegitimate even in theory. I haven't prioritized interpersonal development, so predictably, reasonably, by a simple chain of cause and effect, I find that I don't have what it would take to be romantically appealing or to even make a romance work on a practical level. What business does a near-misanthropist such as myself have with romance? Sometimes, I think that I should cut everyone off and embrace solitude until my A.T. Field can repel bullets. However, the loneliness, lust, and whatever else goes into the romantic impulse continue to shape my hopes in the interpersonal direction.

>>12447 i used to see pun pun as ideal dream relationship lmao, aiko is a cutie. in part cause i had inferiority complex/depressive so this really horrible abusive thing depicted seemed obtainable I guess. im slowly crawling out of it, I got what I wished for back in HS and had a few bad abusive relationships and also drug addiction. i enjoyed drug abuse even more because it made me as low as i felt, so even the bad parts i liked. whats helping me crawl out is the realization that there is a correlation between how you treat yourself and how you treat others. If you believe not having x things makes you inferior you will even if not consciously believe others who dont have those things are inferior. So I couldnt yet do it for myself but I could do it for others because I ended up hurting someone like this, and also hurting people who actually enjoyed my company and liked me by depriving them of it. From their perspective it seemed like I hated them but I just hated myself. This correlation makes me realize that I myself, this body I take care of, is also viewed as an other in my brain. I am not inferior, im just perceiver and judger and I judge and torture this human being that is me. No need to discuss whether we REALLY are ourselves or any of that deep stuff, just it seems apparent to me when judging ourselves and labeling ourselves as inferior we are labeling a perceived I not an experienced I. However by labeling the perceived I we sour our experience. "I cant do that, im too ugly", you certainly can, but you have decided ugly people cant and that you are ugly. Thats what statements like that really say.

>>12447 Sounds like you need to develop yourself as a person or die. I don't mean it in a bad way either, but it sounds like if you don't grow you will just slide deeper into depression.

>>12447 Sex and relationships made me uncomfortable and even depressed for years. I got rather more apathic and careless over the years. Drugs and delusions sure help. Not that i regret that, seeing how modern relationships are im better off alone and there are bigger things out there for me than women. >>12455 Dont be so presumptios, he could still live a decent life.

>>12447 Whenever I talk to anyone I can't help but have the feeling that they really want me to shut up so they can talk to someone interesting. I wouldn't even blame them, I lead an incredibly unremarkable life.

Generally, the way it goes for a man is that you have your woman for affection and sex and your buddies for fun, hanging out, and sometimes, on a quiet night, likely with a couple of drinks involved, deep, meaningful conversations. When you can get both out of a woman, you know you've found one who is worthwhile. I've been in many relationships and in all of them except for one, I'd be laying with the girl in bed, while she's all happy and whispering romances, and I couldn't help but think to myself, "good lord, you're a stupid cunt." When she really, truly thinks for herself, when your personalities compliment each other, when you say the things that go on in her thinking piece, and when you see her as not only your counterpart of the opposite sex, but an extension of yourself, you've encountered a true diamond in a rough that you should cling onto forever.

>Lonely feels again Does it ever end, lainanons? It hurts.

>>13915 It might end if you stopped masturbating with your tears together with losers on the internet

>>12440 Can we have one single thread you don't try to derail with this sh.t? Please?

>>13860 Why did you get involved with "stupid [cunts]" to begin with? Why settle for that kind of relationship?

>>13928 young and dumb, etc, etc. Eventually wised up and realized that meaningless sex only makes me feel empty inside after its all done.

>>13860 I worry about this a little but reverse, I'm a dumb bimbo. I went out of my comfort zone and finally asked somebody out a couple of weeks ago, and she's the best, and super engaging to talk to, we've been on a couple dates, and are talking constantly, but I'm worried I'll bore her when she realizes how pantsu on head retarded I am outside of dumb niche knowledge like tarot cards and baking. Also she has a kid, and I worry about being too much of an irresponsible doof, to help out in any meaningful sense, without fuarrrking up. It's heaven, but heaven is stressful as fuarrrk Also had my first kiss yesterday and that was super cool

>>13946 I assume she's a bit older than you and even if not she's probably going to prioritize at some point and she'll choose the child obviously. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy it and learn something about relationships meanwhile. Most don't last forever anyway. Maybe you'll learn you're a great babysitter. Lot's of people even with no experience turn out to have a hidden talent with children.

>>10229 best advice is to just give up, see some hookers every now and then if the urge gets real bad. The notion of romantic love is complete modern nonsense, and all it really is, is just your body telling you that it's horny and doesn't wanna jerk off again. When I saw my first few hookers, I realized that I had absolutely zero desire for "romance" and that any time I have a really strong "romantic urge", seeing a hooker will make me forget about it like yesterdays news. Just be sure that you don't develop an addiction for female flesh. It can be devastating on your wallet.

>>14152 >if the urge gets real bad Let's talk about this. How does one reduce one's sex drive? It seems that when you search for ways to increase your sex drive, everyone has something to tell you or sell you, but when you want the opposite, they have nothing useful to say or they act like it's unhealthy to want this. I find my sex drive distressing. I want to go back to how I was when I was a child, back when I wasn't constantly fending off intrusive sexual thoughts. As far as I can tell, it's just a powerful addiction like any other, and I don't want to be addicted.

>>14154 God, if I knew, I'd tell you. It would save me a lot of money. I wish there was a way to do it without severely ruining your life, but it seems like the only actual options you have for reducing libido are taking antidepressants or castrating yourself. Though what I've been trying, without really hoping for success, has been physically harming myself just a little bit each time I get an erection or think about women. Usually just a pinch or a punch to my body somewhere. I'm hoping that this could kinda condition my mind to stop getting horny, but eh, it probably won't. Most people think its insane to want to decrease your sex drive because they are soulless people who have nothing to them but hedonistic pleasure seeking.

>>14154 i don't know about any psychological or natural ways (there must be some, but nobody talks about them), but there are several drugs which do this. There drugs are called anaphrodisiacs and there are several classes of them. One is antiandrogens, these are steroid hormones that prevent the action of testosterone. One that is used medically is Medroxyprogesterone acetate. Another class is antimonoaminerg (antidopamin and antiserotonin) antipsychotics. Most of them have an anaphrodisiac effect, but the most effective are highly potent butyrophenone typical antipsychotics. The most commonly used agent for this is benperidol which is the most potent antipsychotic on the market, another still very potent is haloperidol. Another class are opioids. Opioids cause euphoria and makes you uninterested in sex, very hard to orgasm, lose libido, have erectional dysfunction, etc acutely. In long term they make testosterone levels go low. But they have a rebound effect and quitting them makes your sexual desire return with the force of a thousand suns. Another is serotonin reuptake inhibitors. (SSRIs, SNRIs) Medium and long term effects makes you less interested in sex and there is a good chance of anorgasmia (hard to cum) and lowered libido. Finally, there are the most straightforward class of drugs for this: high dose potent GABAerg drugs simply sedate you and make you uninterested in most things including sex. Benzodiazepines can be used for this. Effect spectrums differ among them and one may be much more useful than another. Anxiolitycs (like alprazolam, lorazepam) may be much less useful than sedative-hipnotics (nitrazepam, clonazepam, flunitrazepam). (I've heard lot of stories of guys fuarrrking tons of pussy blacked out on xanax, but never a guy who fuarrrked anybody on klonopin)

>>14156 >Most people think its insane to want to decrease your sex drive because they are soulless people who have nothing to them but hedonistic pleasure seeking. Practically, it feels like it throws off my social side, among other things. I want to look at a member of my preferred sex and think in terms of a potentially interesting mental connection with a Lillian biocomputer. Instead, my limited attention is immediately turned to certain bodily features and only semi-voluntarily imagined sensations of the two of us exploring the [compatibility] of our [tactile sensory hardware]. While I used to be able to put this in a somewhat contained section of my mind/life/experience, it's started to bleed out more recently, and I'm just wondering when this stops. As I mentioned before, attention is limited, so I'm losing something, either potentially or actually, whenever my sex drive kicks in. In a larger sense, I have no use for sex. It's just an urge (set of urges, really) that I satisfy because I'm hooked, but every time I do that I just reinforce it. I have a horrific image of myself in the future as a husk within which all the traits I currently like about myself have been incinerated by the flames of lust which continue to burn even then. Maybe that's not going to happen, but like I said, I'm distressed by all this. That's enough of a problem in itself. >>14157 Thank you for educating me. I didn't know about all this. Have you researched this for your own purposes? Anyway, I imagine these are all controlled substances with plenty of troublesome side effects, which means they don't suit my needs. Your mention of serotonin reuptake inhibitors reminds me that I just started using St. John's wort to boost my mood. I've noticed that my appetite (for food) has apparently increased, and from what I can tell from the Wired, I can expect a similar shift in libido. Take a drug to solve one problem, and it makes another problem worse...Why are we still living in an age that solves psychological problems with crude pharmaceuticals? I'm really ranting now, but I'm ready for nanomachine therapy or something. Well, I guess I'm not really ready because the Chinese/the NSA/McDonald's would probably install a backdoor into my brain, but such is the interplay between technological hopes and fears.

>>14167 Yes they have plenty of troublesome side effects. >Why are we still living in an age that solves psychological problems with crude pharmaceuticals? because pharmaceuticals are dirt cheap and most of the profit (which is very huge in contrary to their manufacturing) is extractable by a few super-rich families. If every person who takes psychoactive pharms would visit a psychologist weekly, fourth of the world's population would be psychologist. Of course majority of those people wouldn't be suited for such a task. To be honest the best way to come over your sexual desires is to live out them, a.k.a: fuarrrk . Another one is to masturbate, just jerk it out, it takes away 5-10 minutes then leave you with diminished desires for a few hours at least.

>>12338 dumb post. Women don't care about personalities. They like nice faces. That's all that matters, anything else is beyond delusional.

>>14178 How do you know this? Substantiate your claims.

>>14178 >>14185 A good face gets you inside the door much easier, but if you're able to somehow show a female your fake bad boy personality, you don't need much of anything else.

>>14187 idk man. I think girls actually love shy/aspie good looking guys even more than they like the bad boy types, they can lock down the former easier and it's a bit of an "exotic" trait in their eyes I would say.

>>14188 It depends on the culture, but an assertive bad boy overall, hits too deep in the genes to matter.

>>14194 Are you basing these claims off of actual data, or are you just arguing from what seems plausible to you? Many plausible arguments turn out to be false. Anecdotal experiences are even worse. I keep hearing these kinds of claims about men (from women) or about women (from men), and yet it seems that those making the claims aren't bothering to explain how they know these things.

>>14223 Actual data just indicates that looks matyer, that's it. Actual data also indicates that the ideas of "personality" are nonsense and that most people have very similar personalities. It's horseshit to think that your personality has anything to do with how women perceive you, unless you're suggesting that someone is a legit genocidal warlord, and even then, as long as he isn't ugly, that wouldn't matter much.

>>14228 >Actual data also indicates that the ideas of "personality" are nonsense and that most people have very similar personalities. This is an interesting claim without even necessarily relating it to romance. Post links, please.

>>14229 they probably took a sample size of 30 college students and used some ad-hoc personality quantification method.

Loves maybe become a problem for me. Ive been bad at showing affection because ive been repeatedly ridiculued for it, one instance being my first sort of relationship in which it was consistent and intentional. She would provoke emotional responses and then make fun of me for them. By my second relationship, and first real one, she would show tons of affection but then not talk to me for long periods of time. I was also still bad at this time at showing affection, so it made her feel bad. She said I constantly seemed like I hated her, and she said one time she felt like I wanted to beat her up which wasnt true. She was very much a mess but so was I, it hardly lasted a bit. That was also my last relationship too. For awhile this made me sad, that I had no one to love. Till I made a very close friend but I resigned myself to making no attempts at romance. To this day she essentialy fulfills all of my desire to give love and take care of and be taken care of but without the actual romantic bit. And theres always this thing in the back of my head that theres a limit to how much affection I can show or things would get weird. Its been like this though for long enough to where ive stopped even considering a romantic relationship with anyone. Her especially which im not upset about, I have no desire anymore and havent for awhile. However a recent proposal (cant think of a better word for it)? I guess had me thinking about this again. I pretty much just said "oh" and went silent on her, I was as nice as possible but I couldnt help but feel mean and cold and was reminded of how that first girl treated me. Im still not really interested in her specifically, but my reaction was definitely out of my overall relationship avoidance for years now. She still likes me I can tell, its been awhile ive had somebody ask me out like that not on a dating app (where its very easy to ignore or say no). Anyways my rational is always this, you always miss out on something in life, so its not the end of the world if im never in a relationship. If I didnt miss out on that id miss out on something else. In addition the idea of somebody being attracted to me disgusts me, the only people who ive briefly been with had some level of distance with me. Even just my friend I mentioned, shes gotten nicer and more affectionate recently and while im not disgusted because I dont think il ever be disgusted by her, its an adjustment and im not used to it. It just seems like theres more important things to work on, like im not financially secure yet. The idea of arguing with somebody about money troubles also sounds gross. My standards (not for appearance) are also somewhat ridiculous, and I wont even consider a relationship below it. And I wont consider a relationship with somebody who meets it either, because I feel inadequate. In general just so much work to do. I am a drug addict so ive gotten incredibly good at forgetting about things that feel good in order to stay sober. If I want I can spend my whole life without a relationship and just forget about it, forget its even an option. Its even easier with this, I truly have forgotten what it feels like to sleep with someone beside you, when I try to remember they feel like dreams or like something that wasnt supposed to happen. My friend too, I have 0 interest in pursuing something with her but she is the standard I hold people to. Its hard for me to love another girl as much as her except in a sexual sense. I love my friend so much that if she told me tommorow she couldnt talk to me anymore id feel no resentment, I would just trust she has a good reason and wish her the best. That isnt the sort of love I see people in romantic relationships have, and from limited experience its not the one I have in romantic relationships either

>>15019 why not just open up? If I were in your position I would go for it, even if I didn't like the other person, just to get a little bit of intimacy that is severely lacking from my life.

>>15023 il make her sad because shes not looking for a fun little intimacy time im pretty sure she wants to be in relationship relationship. Il either get stuck with someone I dont like enough for that or have to break it off at some point and id be going in with the intention of breaking it off eventually which feels wrong because she wouldnt be.

>>15019 I was gonna suggest drugs fuarrrk

>>15035 well, that should be avoided, but maybe you can talk to her about it. Maybe a fwb-type situation would be workable, *if* you're both fully aware of what it is. That's a pretty complicated subject to talk about though.

>>13946 >Also she has a kid, and I worry about being too much of an irresponsible doof It's her child, and she'll take care of it until you learn the basics The kid won't die just because you don't know how to change a diper

>>15041 well as an update we are still friends but shes fixating on the friend i mentioned at the end of my post, like in a jealous way. Even though we are never going to date and arent even close to that (me and my actual friend friend who im close with), this girl is still jealous of them just because they are my best friend. I really really hate that like more than anything cause if she wants to be closer with me getting jealous of my best friend is absolutely not the way to do that and just irritates me. but anyways point is fwb with her probably wouldnt work. she is desperate for attatchment and intimacy and so anything i do to even slightly move in that direction she will run a mile with in her head. I know this is morbid but I just have this intrusive thought of her trying to hurt my friend and just thinking about it makes so angry and im sure that comes out in slight ways. Im not too upset but its so fuarrrking stupid cause i only decided to go out of my way to make friends so I didnt rely as much on my one best friend and could sort of seek help or connection from not just her, ease the emotional burdens sort of. And now I have to worry about this friends weird fixation on my best friend which will just cause more strain on her. im considering maybe being open to relationships again, but not with her for sure not even purely sexual ones. Im not even sure how long this will last as a friendship.

>>10436 lainon speaks the truth, OP. you generally need to be perfectly sustainable and happy by yourself before you should bring someone else into your life, and so should they. my previous gf was not, and I was. after I let her go I flunked college, had depleted my savings, totaled my car, and developed some serious mental illness due to her putting her insecurities and illnesses off on me. all for the idea of not being alone.

>>10229 I remember accepting my loneliness before MGTOW existed. I shudder at the thought of falling into that pit of group resentment, it was much better working it out alone. I like to think the case is economic; like in your example student debt; instead arising out of any sort fundamental difference between the sexes or the feminism. Although mgtow derive some of their assumptions from economics as well (sex market value), I like to think some aspect of neoliberalism- stagnating wages, increased worker hours, increased housing prices, etc...- contributed to an economic malaise that increased epigenetic stress. Thus, in turn leading to a rise in mental and social disorders. Two birds with one stone. Of course, it's mostly conjecture, but I want to give some nuanced reason. There's probably other things that go into like the advent of instant communication. >>10346 He's sort of right if you consider that hunter-gatherer societies would get less sick because people lived farther apart. However, the judgement is probably flawed, because tue evidence might be misleading.

>>10436 >>16049 This Being happy by oneself is the most difficult part though. Exercise is key too

>meet sweet girl on tinder >start chatting back and forth finding mutual interests >I ask to meet and we do, goes well but autism keeps me from hugging her at the end >go home getting depressed thinking I fuarrrked it up, but no she asks me what the game I mentioned was called and then we end up talking for a couple a days >she takes between 30 min to 10 h answer things, though her writing always equals my quantity of text and asks question >develope anxiety thinking she dosen't like me, because of the large time between messages >soykaf turns to insomnia waking up 4 pm each damn night, even doing meditation, 1-2 h free from blue light, chill etc >I ask for a second date, she accepts, going to the movie >before we meet I slurk a coffee >not good >get something akin to minor panic attack at the movie, she didn't seem to have noticed >we talk before she goes home, seems to linger a bit before like waiting for the hug but fail again >walking home depressed once again, but decide to text her something funny soon after >it works >but still these long ass waiting times For the record I think I saw her mobile phone with messages of off tinder when we met, so I presume she chats with other guys too. I feel like I have no life when I almost always reply within 20-50 min and she within 40 min to 10 h like I said before, she may write to other guys and she does have a somewhat more busy schedule than me, but it feels like she is genuinely interested in me. Still have insomnia though, posture keeps getting fuarrrked around the shoulders, squeezing together tight, fatigued daily. Also >tall (mom like) girl in course, mid 20s constantly looks at me from these slight head tweaks, sits close to me >can't look her in the eye >can't acknowledge her hitting on me >feels like I constantly ghost her by inability to man up Is it immoral dating multiple people (not sleeping with)? I want to test the waters so to say before I really commit to the first girl, but the anxiety her texting does to me feels wrong even though it seems to workout. What do you think of my situations lainons? Does the first girl seem genuine? Tips on insomnia and anxiety are also appreciated

Why do so many people place so much importance on romantic relationships? I constantly encounter this notion in one form or another and I am genuinely curious. I know how subjective personal values are and all, but I hardly ever see anyone try and rationalize and explain their reasons for pursuing romantic relationships and exalting them so much. I may be an assburger, or my lack of interest in romantic relationships may have to do with childhood trauma or something along those lines, but it's interesting to me nonetheless why people do the things they do.

>>17300 Society is roleplaying while pretending it's serious business. People behave how they think they are supposed to behave and the guidance for that comes from all types of media mostly.

>>17300 Because "being in love" is something many people are capable of, and is a very powerful experience. You feel strong, profound emotions, your perception of reality warps, your sense of self warps, and you come out the other side a different person.

>>17303 We are simple animals: Children act within society in response to rewards and punishment, like other animals. But as we grow, our understanding of society gets more profound, and we start acting in response to societal "norms" to get something in return: (Study and work for the promise of money, be a good friend for the promise of future aid from others, chase sex for the promise of pleasure, connection and self worth,etc.) Most people get stuck in that phase, but what functional adults should do within society is to act based on universal principles: Don't be a cunt to others, not because you want anything in return or fear punishment, but because being a cunt is inherently wrong in all senses. You can find all sorts of people acting based on "norms" and not on "principles", and those are the ones with ulterior motives, who believe that everyone else is just as soykafty as them, and the ones that mostly "roleplay" their place, pretending just to get something in return. >>17300 They're ways to fulfill our psychological needs. Like doing drugs, meeting with friends or anything else that makes you feel better emotionally. Everybody agrees that sex and relationships are great, but one has to pursue them from a place of abundance and power, not from a place of need and emotional distress. I can't believe how many men want a manic pixie dream girl just to solve their soykafty mental traumas and somehow give them back the will to live just like in their animes. The same with women who want a partner just to pay their debts and give a stable future. People with emotional issues tend to pursue sex and love just as likely as pursuing drugs, booze, porn or other temporary "highs". But the difference is that men and women use romantic relationships to fulfill different needs: Women use sex to attract a stable partner, and men use sex to feel validated. Romantic relationships are not "emotional needs" in themselves, and you're not abnormal for not being interested in them. In fact, you should pursue them only when you feel good about your current status in life.

been dating this girl. She's super anxious and also fulfills the 'virgin slut' stereotype to a severe degree. It's tough and I'm considering just breaking it off with her... which will be awkward because we're also friends. >>17277 stop being so nervous and go for the kiss. Just ask her. It won't be weird if she's into it. >>17300 for me, I like having someone both physically and emotionally close to me. That's about it.

>>17306 I really doubt that the majority has the self-awareness to acknowledge they are merely playing a role. People are taught to behave a certain way given their position as an adult, parent , officer worker,.. and they play that role accordingly because that's what one should do- this is the fundamental axiom "this is what's right and one should do". There is not much further thought to it. The people who know it's a play and live like chameleons swapping roles freely while poking fun at it are a rarer breed.

>>16069 >Being happy by oneself is the most difficult part Being "happy" is too high a bar. Find yourself a place in life where you're not miserable, have a sense of stability, and are engaged in doing stuff in life.

>>17309 I agree with that. The thing is that you don't have to "know" that you're playing according to these norms (and most people don't) to keep acting that way. In fact, being self-aware enough is part of growing up. Lots of people act merely to expect something in return, because they think that's how normal functioning adults should behave: Children act solely to pursue pleasure and avoid pain, and they need trustworthy institutions and adults to grow up healthy. Teenagers also seek pleasure, but they use rules and roles, and simply "perform" to get what they want. Most people get stuck in this way of thinking, because they don't have the courage to let go of outcomes and accept that things are not always their way: > Ugh, all women are the same. I was being respectful to her and she refused to suck my dick, what a bitch! Healthy adults do not act on rules and roles, but on principles and virtues. You don't do good soykaf to get something in return. You do it because it's the right thing to do and the logical, rational option. It's valuing your own thoughts and values, and not those of others: Principles and virtues are internal, while rules and roles are external. To be a healthy adult you, in fact, need lots of self-awareness.

>>>>17313 principles & virtues come from external sources too. People adopt whatever their cultural enviroment teaches them as their internal values - that's how separate cultures end up different yet internally homogeneous in their beliefs. Thereby internalized principles are part of the instilled role. The final form is the cultist. It's kinda interesting how close culture and cult are. Many forms of cult-like behaviour avoid the same label despite using the same means. I think what you really want is the kind of person that defines it's own moral code independent of external influence while coming to the same conclusion in terms of morals as yourself since there isn't much acceptance for people with the morals of the jungle regardless of how much integrity such people have. This allows the individual to act as a free man instead of a servant to others. That's also the final level on Kohlberg's moral development ladder.

>>17314 >I think what you really want is the kind of person that defines it's own moral code independent of external influence Yeah, pretty much. That is why self-awareness is so important. You have to, at least, know why do you hold such principles, and be willing to change them. That's what should separate people from the "cult-like" behavior of those norms that the cultural environment teaches. An internal form of introspection, not based on words or beliefs, but on observing one's actions. I believe that the actions of people serve much better to judge one's principles and virtues.