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how do you feel about christmas? like most people I loved it as a kid, but after growing up I've gotten a different perspective of it. christmas now seems to me like one huge scheme for companies to get allot of money. I mean its basically a holiday that revolves around parents buying their kids lots of presents, and I don't think most people see it that way, since it is also technically a christian holiday, but most people don't care about the religious aspect of christmas. so how do you feel about it?

Personally I view it as some sort of co-opted holiday invented by the Jews which was cooked up to guilt trip non-jews out of their money under the guise of a religious holiday. Then again I think the same about a lot of modern holidays that serve little more modern purpose than a vehicle to sell you something on an excessive scale (Halloween candy/costumes, Easter candy, Valentines day candy/cards, St Patrick's Day plastic crap, the list goes on and on). Personally while I am not religious by any means I wish holidays would go back to their religious meaning instead of an excuse to buy useless things that end up in the dumpster a day later. Probably a very unpopular opinion here, but no sense saying nothing.

Christmas is awesome. Pretty much every pace that has a winter has a winter holiday of some sort,and that makes a sort of human sense. It's horribly cold? I'm starving and everything is dead or dying? fuarrrk you nature, we're throwing a kickass party. Those sick and old who are probably gonna die are going out in a blaze of music and light. I think people have gotten more cynical about it because winter's lost it's deadly, powerful edge, with better heating and all. Still nice tho.

>>3945 Thanks anon, you point of view is totally new to me, what you plan to do on xmas?

>>3944 >tfw Columbus day and Easter have literally been turned into "spring and fall holiday" in some places to remain politically correct, the holidays have literally lost all symbolic meaning or the sake of PC culture but now i need to interact with family because "muh tradition" which amounts to me having to >go shopping >exchange things of monetary value as a social obligation >act like im loving interacting with all the normal people while i secretly just want to be at my home all comfy in the snow enjoying my day off talking to my anon firends

>>3944 That you would blame Jews instead of the market is... distressing, I guess. Is it really that much easier to tell yourself that an ethnic group is responsible for something rather than the economic forces at play that make it a smart financial decision to push products during holidays? >>3965 Easter is a religious holiday and, as such, should not be celebrated by the state in any capacity except as a spring holiday. If you attend any religious ceremony you will find that the symbolic meaning of Jesus Christ rising from the dead alive and well. I'm not sure why you care about the symbolic meaning of Columbus Day.

>>3971 I have a feeling that he is just meme spouting. Quite honestly, I do find the amount of obsessing over buying things to be highly annoying. But with the money people throw out every Christmas, you'd be dumb not to try to get some of that cash.

>>3971 >Easter is a religious holiday and, as such, should not be celebrated by the state in any capacity except as a spring holiday. If you attend any religious ceremony you will find that the symbolic meaning of Jesus Christ rising from the dead alive and well. >I'm not sure why you care about the symbolic meaning of Columbus Day. its the idea of having something symbolic, but not recognizing the symbolism in it. imagine if crosses became offensive symbols, so people just ignored their religious significance, but they were still located on buildings. people would recognize that crossed sticks are important, but fail to recognize what makes some stupid crossed sticks important. the idea of "generic holiday 1" as a holiday is asinine, because it serves as a reason to give people a time for quiet reflection of an event that has no reason to celebrate by reflecting on

>>3973 Signs lose their meaning as a manner of course. That you don't know the significance of this image is not some great loss: its significance to the Romans is necessarily wrapped in the culture of its time. In the same way, signs gain or lose meaning in real time. If you wish to save and preserve those symbols, it is up to you to demonstrate that these symbols have value. >the idea of "generic holiday 1" as a holiday is asinine, because it serves as a reason to give people a time for quiet reflection of an event that has no reason to celebrate by reflecting on I don't think your view of holidays as a time for reflection on a particular event is one that is shared by most people.

my family has a very no-bullsoykaf view of religious holidays. They're a day off to spend with family, nothing more. We give each other gifts but only stuff that is genuinely wanted/needed(and usually cheaper stuff like books -- we don't have money to waste on expensive crap)

>>3974 >I don't think your view of holidays as a time for reflection on a particular event is one that is shared by most people. that is the point that I am getting at, the purpose of holidays in western society ( and likely in other cultures) is to observe some spiritual or social significance. if the holiday represents nothing but a day by which the objective is to spend money on unneeded consumerism, then the holiday has lost its meaning as its own significant event. think of it like Sunday. the date has significance because of the catholic church. but it was an adaptation of the judeochristian belief in a day of rest. what if ind more curious in terms of anthropology in action is that the sacred factor has adopted even a whole new meaning. instead of religious day, people observe days for sports and recreation. a new from of religion almost. but I do think that it is transitional when it comes to the shift fro ma religion of god, to a religion of pseudo equality, under the principle that if nobody can have a special thing, then nobody can be mad at a special thing. but the inverse is also the case, if we have generic holidays, we can all celebrate them in our own ways (see the furthering of consumerism)

I've grown to hate the gift giving aspect. If I had my way my family would just treat Christmas like another Thanksgiving... an excuse to visit my parents and a nice meal. But they still seem to want to waste money on me even though I can now afford to but things as I need them (which of course means I have to waste money on them too).

You guys had your minds and ideas about holidays firstly perverted then used and abused until you miss-understood the point. Holidays, especially religious and national holidays, on their own aren't a bad thing. In fact, they are innocent close family gatherings that makes us remember some historical/religious event that made us cherrish what we did here and where we are at the moment. The fact that some people twist these ideas into mass marketing and that people like you fall on that advertisement, or that you were raised up in such environment is totally pathetic. Look past the "merry capitalism" and what do you? What do these companies try to make commodify of? Human emotions of joy and companionship, which you can only recreate with your family, not with gifts and money. Do not hate "the system" and "the man" for your inadequacies for creating such gatherings of your family where everyone feels happy. If you do not feel happy maybe it's on you to change yourself not everything around yourself. Do not like religious aspect of Christmas? Do not care about it? Do not celebrate christmas then. Celebrate something else entirelly. Celebrate Newtons birthday or winter sollistice or just your family gathering event should be enough to celebrate. Do not try to change the whole world just because you don't find any meaning in decorating the christmas tree. It's shameful on your part to think that your issues are extrinsic.

>>3971 >That you would blame Jews instead of the market is... distressing Same soykaf different package. You are looking at your own reflection in the mirror you dumb socialist. You blame "the system" and he blames "the jews". Both are absurd ideas, but somehow you don't see the similarities? LOL They aren't called "National SOCIALISTS" for no reason.

Like most im not fond of it, its just a season where people pretend they like each other for me, though i dont really care as long as im kept out of it.

>>3945 >tfw I dont have a winter >tfw just have warm and wet season

>>3987 >Same soykaf different package Both the sign and signified are significantly different. Please don't fall prey to such meaningless platitudes. >Both are absurd ideas Investigating the means by which culture is produced is not absurd at all. It can be done in a rational manner and proceed based on evidence. This evidence does not point towards the Jewish people as the reason why holidays are commercialized. >They aren't called "National SOCIALISTS" for no reason. Here we have a fantastic example of the difference between the sign and signified.

>>3987 >You blame "the system" and he blames "the jews". >Both are absurd ideas, but somehow you don't see the similarities? LOL >comparing people mad at the government to neo nazis I'll take false equivalence for 500

I live in Jordan, and my family are Orthodox Christians. I am personally agnostic, but I really love Christmas. Since Christians are a minority in Jordan (and the middle-east in general), Christianity here is not just about the religion, but it also has it's own culture, which I personally like very much, even though I am not religious. Christmas doesn't mean much to me from a religious or spiritual perspective, but it does mean a lot to me because I see a lot of relatives that I haven't seen for a very long time. Christmas here is not very commercial. The tradition on Christmas here is as follows: > On Christmas eve, close friends and family gather in a restaurant or a house to have dinner, and if there are children in the family, someone dresses up as Santa and hands them gifts (that their parents bought for them). > On the first day, we have lunch at our grandparents (my dad's parents' house). > On the second day, we have lunch at our grandparents (my mom's parents' house). > Each family visits the houses of their close relatives. For example, we visit my aunts and uncles' houses, and the houses of my parents' aunts and uncles, and we also visit some close friends. These people also visit our house. > When a family visits another family's house, Arabic coffee, Arabic sweets and red wine or liquor is usually served. Most Christian families here do this. Sadly, I won't be able to go to anyone's house this year or really celebrate Christmas at all; I have a Compiler Construction exam on the 27th; so, I'll be in my room studying like crazy! :(

Christianity is a mess but I like cold weather and gifts.

>>3994 >mad at the government >to neo nazis Now you are just strawmanning me buddy I never said "the system" was government. I think most of these lainchan type socialists hate capitalism itself rather than any particular government. And neo nazis? They hate jews that run capitalism and are in top 100 of every country even though they are just few percents. They own most companies, private or public. This is why you guys are the same. This is why you guys hate each other the most.

Even fuarrrking christmas now comes down to da j00z and neo nazis. fuarrrk all of you fuarrrking idiots.

>>4020 >I never said "the system" was government. I think most of these lainchan type socialists hate capitalism itself rather than any particular government. You are being incredibly disingenuous here. The government is necessarily heavily intertwined with the economic system of a country. We can speak of the two as separate entities but in real life it is clear that "the economic system" also extends to "the economic system and how it is managed." > They hate jews that run capitalism and are in top 100 of every country even though they are just few percents. They own most companies, private or public. This is why you guys are the same. Why are you spreading Nazi propaganda while claiming not to be one?

>>4027 I kinda wished that the anti-Semitic clods and the hyper sensitive "ur a nazi" babies would just be moved to their own country where they can riot like the autistic animals they are.

I hated it as a kid because I was always getting ill around Christmas and I couldn't eat smoked salmon. Then my parents divorced and the grandparents are dead anyway so I don't bother doing anything. I don't feel I'm missing out since it was always meh and I'm not really religious. I don't mind the commercial aspect though, it's not like anyone forced me to buy anything and someone making money doesn't mean I'll make less of it. There's also some sweet deals to make right after.

I see it more as companies are profiting off of this gift giving time, not the holiday itself is a marketing ploy. Some people in my family never bought gifts, they would send arts and crafts stuff their kids made. Growing up it sucked, but now I appreciate it a lot. Another time they sent me a sketchbook and a pen and it kind of changed my life in a way. In a sad way its also a convenient time to buy/get things you were starting to need (kind of) anyways. Say a new phone, computer or some new clothes. I love getting gifts, il always take them and I rarely give back something of equal monetary worth. I try to make my gifts special to the person, but I love getting expensive stuff. Christmas or not, I always just make it clear that im never going to refuse a gift and that they shouldnt expect too much back except my gratitude and love. I dont have much money anwyays, if I did I definitely would buy them something they have been needing.

>>4020 >There is a minority of a minority that has a lot of wealth >The problem is the jews no the problem is those handful of people up there. How could Jewish people be the problem when over half of them make the same as the rest of us. Even that 44% making over 100k, probably a tiny tiny fraction of those are at "the top". I mean you said the difference yourself, one is mad at capitalism and the other is mad at the jews who run capitalism. The former doesn't believe "the jews" are some giant collective hivemind, regardless if on average they are wealthier. It's more likely jewish family values and upbringing happen to produce people more likely to succeed. Rather than what a neo nazi would believe, that jewish people themselves are somehow the problem. if after this you still think these are the same thing you are a retard.

>>4053 Also the problem is the system, not "rich people" or "business owners". Some rich people give back a lot, if say every rich person when they got wealthy just chose out of the goodness of their hearts to give even half of their wealth back to the community capitalism would just be great. That's not true, something about our system rewards greedy individuals who want to make the money and never give anything back once they get there, keep it in the family. If you targeted and killed all these people nothing would happen, more would rise to the occasion to fill the void. so another difference, neo nazis blame people, I for example blame the systems that rewards this behavior.

I don't actually mind it. People from many different faiths have always celebrated this time of year, yes of course this is being heavily capitalised on which is unfortunate but I think gathering at the end of the year to exchange gifts and have a feast is a good thing.

>>4054 >Also the problem is the system, not "rich people" or "business owners". Some rich people give back a lot, if say every rich person when they got wealthy just chose out of the goodness of their hearts to give even half of their wealth back to the community capitalism would just be great. But what is the system made of? How is it maintained? The people and it doesnt matter if they are rich or not, or if they know what is going on or not. The consequences are there regardless if they care or not. >That's not true, something about our system rewards greedy individuals who want to make the money and never give anything back once they get there, keep it in the family. If you targeted and killed all these people nothing would happen, more would rise to the occasion to fill the void. What that is that most people are greedy and the poor will cling to the rich who exploit the poor. And yes it can be stopped if the lot of them gets killed, these people are disgusting, they pray on the survival and dignity of others, why should the same not be done to them? I know its easy said in theory, but capitalists are a cancer and nothing else, they must be eradicated completely if we are ever to lead a decent life. It is thinking like this that lead them to become so powerful, these individuals who support capitalism have absolutely no sense of shame or guilt and will exploit anyone and anything that they can get their hands on. If you propose to fix the system with such individuals existing they will sabotage any attempt at fixing it. Most of this worlds misery can be placed on capitalism directly or indirectly, there is no punishment sufficient for the scum at the top. The only solution is to set an example on these people for all world to see. >so another difference, neo nazis blame people, I for example blame the systems that rewards this behavior. Im not a neo nazi and i dont hate people of jewish ethnicity, but religion is a cancer and there is a lot of discrimination against others from their side and its also closely tied with capitalism. Its a us vs them scenario, cooperation with the capitalists will only result in exploitation, i have seen it so many times, i would never turn my back on one of them.

>>4002 > I have a Compiler Construction exam on the 27th; so, I'll be in my room studying like crazy! :( That's really sad Jordan Lain. A couple of years ago I had an exam on 27th too and I had the most soykaf of Christmas days ever. Hold in there and good luck!

>>4060 I'm not the kind of person who usually spout this kind of soykaf, but holy hell man, go outside. You live in a fantasy. The real world is completely different from the image you have in your mind. Business owners and rich people, most of the time, are people who worked blood and sweat their way to where they are, they're grateful for what they have, and try to give as much as they gain. The idea of the upperclassman with no shame that built an empire oppressing and destroying hardworking poor people is a cliché built in the 1800s that doesn't really apply anymore since most countries have regulations and ask for transparency of how and when people make money and how they treat their workers. Given how you type I know that you'll discard my whole post saying that I'm part of the problem, but I seriously disagree with how you see things. What you're making here is mostly fear mongering based on assumptions given by the past that now only reside in fiction. Also >cooperation with the capitalists will only result in exploitation, i have seen it so many times You're either 100+ year old or lying. TL;DR I disagree

>>4053 I'm not part of this discussion, but after seeing ur chart scrolling in mega I just dropped by to tell you your soykafs all wrong. Percentages mean nothing, especially when presented within their own group and not as a part of the whole. What was the sample size for each religion in that study? The 100k bracket is arbitrary and much lower than it should be for this kind of argument. What that person pointing at jews means is over representation. There aren't many jews as compared to, say, caholics or whatever. And you have to consider money isn't the only thing they own. Media outlets, massive corps that can do whatever they want, the US govt etc. I don't have them on hand but theres plenty of charts outlining all of this. They're not all bad, and theres plenty of non-jews that are just as bad but after digging a bit you can't just say there's nothing wrong. Neo nazi or not, anyone that's actively and knowingly detrimental to the species to further their own goals should be removed.

>>4062 > The idea of the upperclassman with no shame that built an empire oppressing and destroying hardworking poor people is a cliché built in the 1800s that doesn't really apply anymore since most countries have regulations and ask for transparency of how and when people make money and how they treat their workers. I don't think you understand why so much of what we buy is made in places like Bangladesh and Honduras. Those countries have very weak protection for their workers and it's cheaper to manufacture there and ship it around the world. This fact is in direct conflict with your assertion. Even if a business doesn't trade in these goods, it's likely that they use them in some capacity. This is a basic reality of the global economy.

>>4028 >The government is necessarily heavily intertwined with the economic system of a country Is that why most international companies thrive no matter in which system of laws and regulations they are put in? Hmmmmm It seems like government on its own can't really control the beast that is capitalism, which is why I see more and more socialists talking about global socialism rather than just local or national which is fuarrrking absurd. I mean, where will people run away to then? Mars? >Why are you spreading Nazi propaganda while claiming not to be one? So are you saying anti capitalistic sentiment is also socialist propaganda? Wtf? Saying simple facts like "sky is blue" or "capitalism hurts the people that it works upon" or "jews are always CEOs of all major companies while being 3% of general population" doesn't have any intrinsic political propaganda value, it is just an observation based on factual evidence anyone can look up Calm your autism

>>4027 Ugh its almost 2018 and we are still on and on about Hitler and neo nazis. Common guys, get with the times.

>>3945 I agree. Christmas is fuarrrking awesome. Everyone's celebrating, there's nostalgic soykaf everywhere, and, personally, I enjoy the cultural aspects of it - ugly Christmas sweaters, secret santa, mistletoe, that soykaf. >>3965 Nobody is forcing you to do any of that. If you don't want to give gifts, tell people that you don't want to. They will understand. If you want to stay home, stay home. If you spend your holidays doing soykaf you don't like, that's on you, not your family or society.

>>4061 Thanks a lot! :D I started studying for the exam today because the material is huge; but it's very fun actually. :)

>>4150 >Nobody is forcing you to do any of that. If you don't want to give gifts, tell people that you don't want to. They will understand. If you want to stay home, stay home. this may work in some countries, but you need to understand the social implications of the family from a dynamic cultural standpoint. yes you COULD "just B yourself" but doing so could have lasting adverse reprocussions on those physically closest to you >inb4 just go get new friends. you can only have one birthplace, and you can only have one blood family. this produces complications when you are related to a bunch of custom centric normal people. >Is that why most international companies thrive no matter in which system of laws and regulations they are put in? Hmmmmm It seems like government on its own can't really control the beast that is capitalism, which is why I see more and more socialists talking about global socialism rather than just local or national which is fuarrrking absurd. what you are referring to is the globalist system of economy and trade. multi national corporations and their subsidiaries control immense wealth throughout the world, and it is not limited to each country. in the economy that we all live in, we answer more to companies than we do to governments. just look at the political strife in countless 1st world countries, yet somehow companies are not complaining, they just keep on going no matter what. its because companies are not a bad thing, unless they are treated as people, because even though humans can be held responsible for their actions, companies cannot be executed for murder, or jailed for theft. it is not organized bodies of people that are the problem, it is self serving inanimate entities that are the problem. look at the civil rights and voting problems that facbook has been wrapped up in (even thought the use of facebook as a propaganda and spying machine has been known for going on a decade), but they just get a slap on the wrist. and look at how banks that loose the most precious information of their customers get yelled at and a "try better next time" when people s lives are at risk. the worst types of multi national corporations are the ones that collaborate with governments to privatize the natural public resources of a country. look at he influence that Coca Cola has in south America, or even the time when a MNC tried to privatize an entire countries water supply, until the people almost overthrew the government for supporting the company (the company then turned around and got compensation form the government, which meant that the company got paid to waste the peoples tax money since it could not profit. that money could have gone to roads or other infrastructure) A company could basically build a giant dome AROUND a persons house, charge them for any air let into it, and if that person does not comply with your 100$ a breath policy, you could take them to court, or if they refuse and suffocate, you would jest get a monetary fine, that at 100$ a breath could be paid off in minutes. that is why people value socialism over capitalism. not because of companies or organizations themselves, but because they are treated as people with no limits of time or space. also look at how few parent companies operate. there are about a dozen who own some of the thousands of subsidiaries that we see day to day. look at how food and life items are controlled by Dupont/monsanto/DOW/Bayer and friends. it makes Chinese sweatshop owners seem tame by comparison I am roughly a centrist, because I see the pros and cons of every system, and use them as they are convenient and efficient for myself and other people

>>4150 > If you don't want to give gifts, tell people that you don't want to. They will understand My own family (both parents are dead) understand that I've got problems with shopping at the best of times and also crowds, which multiply by x10 in December, plus I'm on government assistance. I just stopped buying gifts and my brother said he was kind of glad. We don't talk about it but he knows I'm crazy. I just get cards for everyone and there's no complaints. Me and that brother start drinking before everyone else comes for dinner on xmas eve, and are the only two still drinking after everyone else goes home or to bed. Then I pass out on his couch. Pretty much that's the routine.

>>4179 >me me me Who are you? Why the fuarrrk should I care?

>how do you feel about christmas? It's a great season for making a shekel, particularly when one isn't particularly financially stable... However, unlike in the past, I have no means of making money that is related to the holidays, so I guess I'll be missing out on the opportunity. I could find something to make for the season, but I've been out of the loop for so long that I have no idea whether anything I made would have any aesthetic value for people to spend their shekel on. However, I already witnessed how people are throwing away their holiday bonus on dumb soykaf.

>>4169 >>Nobody is forcing you to do any of that. If you don't want to give gifts, tell people that you don't want to. They will understand. If you want to stay home, stay home. > >this may work in some countries, but you need to understand the social implications of the family from a dynamic cultural standpoint. yes you COULD "just B yourself" but doing so could have lasting adverse reprocussions on those physically closest to you >in some countries I don't think this is a "country by country" thing. It sounds like you just have a crazy family. If your family members are so messed up that they wouldn't understand you saying, "I do not want to give or receive gifts because x, y, z," then that is like kicking dead whales down the beach, but you're still not being forced to do anything you don't want to. You're the one choosing to indulge them.

>>3942 >what's the deal with kurisumasu? unless you do the whole religion thing (i.e. going Mass/Divine Liturgy EVERY Sunday and at least TRY to keep the advent fast) then you're best off ignoring Christmas altogether. This modern "holiday" deserves to be treated with the same skepticism as "Mother's Day," "Secretary's Day," "All-new Dominos Deep-Dish Pizza Appreciation Week"

>>3945 This exactly. 'muh capitalism' hasn't replaced the deep cultural significance of winter holidays (and I have NO IDEA why Christmas was more resilient than fall holidays, like how Halloween is entirely commercial and replaced days like Samhain), but it DID augment them if you know how to behave. If tacky ads and commercial things aren't to your taste (and who could blame you for that?) it's easy enough to ignore them, especially for the introverted types who frequent this site. Just focus on your loved ones and the beauty of the season, and maybe take advantage of the sales like you would any other time of the year tl;dr I strongly believe cynicism about commercialized holidays is mostly or entirely within the individual's control. Change your perception, enjoy more things before you die lains