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Is it pointless to meditate when I can just blast my mind on psychedelics into a state that take years for serious meditators to achieve?

The main point of meditation is exercising self control, which is distinctly eroded by most psychedelic drugs.

Hello, I am a hypocrite talking here. But, the things that take the most effort, are the most rewarding.

Why not both? I tried meditation before psychedelics and I sorta intellectually understood what I was supposed to experience but never got there. But after being forced there with psychedelics, I've become much better at it. I've never experienced ego death meditating, but being in that state of meta-awareness of my conscious experience is deeply felt now.

>>9722 agree here, similar situations. After experimenting with psychedelics it's easier to slip in to a trancelike meditative state.

I've done both and the idea that psychedelics somehow magically warp your brain into a state which is comparable to an experienced meditator is completely false. The only people who say that are those who don't have the patience for meditation. This isn't even my opinion really either, the prefrontal cortex, hippocampus, parahippocampus, and amygdalae are uniquely affected by vipassana which cannot be replicated by some pill. The only substance which may possibly accelerate this process is psilocybin, which does act on the same brain structures, but the only studies which have found it to be just as useful as meditation were ones in which subjects were instructed to meditate during their trip. So at best psilocybin has a synergistic relationship with meditation.

>>9724 Also that's just with vipassana. Their are soykafloads of meditation techniques and some are bullshit but others, like kundalini for example are completely different than any traditional psychedelic drug and have unique effects on the body's blood alkalinity and adrenaline content and even the degree to which someone is capable of functioning executively.

>>9724 >psychedelics somehow magically warp your brain into a state which is comparable to an experienced meditator is completely false Being primed for it, setting an intention and the right set and setting, it absolutely can. I had to stop reading trip reports because it was strongly influencing and changing my psychedelic experiences and I felt like I was having someone else's trip.

>>9726 I don't think an accidentally self-induced quasi-psychosis which has similarities to an autobiographical story you read is the same as meditation.

I agree with the posters saying that the state(s?) achieved by mediation is different from that achieved by psychedelics, but for the argument's sake, let's assume they were the same. In that case the psychedelic state would still only be induced by drugs that quickly build up a tolerance, are illegal in many places, can have uncomfortable side effects like nausea and are unhealthy if taken too often. I don't wanna discuss how dangerous taking psychedelics like twice a year is because the data isn't clear and it would turn this thread into a soykaf show of contradicting cherry-picked information. But we can all agree that tripping every weekend would definitely fuarrrk up your brain. However I've found psychedelics to be helpful in showing me what's possible when I was at dark places mentally and unable to find the discipline to start a meditation habit.

Would you joyride in a race car full speed without any training how to control it? Sure it could be fun but you may not get the most of it that way.

>>9731 I'm absolutely not saying that the psychedelic experience is useless or that it has no therapeutic value. I meditate every day, both to heal trauma and act as a prophylactic measure to prevent new traumatic events from becoming too debilitating, but sometimes you need a weapons grade solution to quickly return to a functional state. Ketamine, psilocybin, iboga, and MDMA all have research backing up their ability to do this and I can personally attest to ketamine saving my life. I'm just saying that it's absolutely not the same thing as meditation. I mean, come on, meditation isn't an intoxicating activity. It may be psychedelic once you get good enough at it but it doesn't impair your functioning or reduce or skew your cognitive abilities like a drug. It amplifies them.

>>9726 >I had to stop reading trip reports because it was strongly influencing and changing my psychedelic experiences and I felt like I was having someone else's trip. Most people don't appreciate how much of the effects of psychedelics are mindset/expectations and setting. Psychedelics are sorta like the placebo effect times 100. >I felt like I was having someone else's trip You're always going to be having other peoples trip to an extent, just from what you were told/culture.

I did 4 grams of mushrooms alone in my room and it made me INTOLERABLY meta. They just made me think about thinking, like how random thoughts are and how they affect my emotions or desires at moment. then just change into something else. Then how everything I perceived is filtered like this, then it just kept spiraling to everything and my self and made everything feel fake, myself included. If meditation is like this I don't want to to do it. I want to get lost in my self, it's why I do depressants and stims.

>>9720 microdosing lsd helps my self control in regards to bad habits >>9737 I have had similar experiences on LSD trips. That is, my mind starts racing and all I can do is think, sometimes in annoying loops. The one time I did shrooms, I remember that all I thought about was how nothing mattered but love—that said, I do remember my mind racing throughout the trip. On another note, since this thread is on meditation, anybody have some good resources/tips to get started meditating? I have tried to meditate before going to bed but I gave up; I kept getting distracted by my lamp. That said, when I meditate I tend to put myself in this calm lakeshore with pink blossom trees and a trickling waterfall—is that meditation or just focused daydreaming?

>>9738 >I kept getting distracted by my lamp that's normal and you are supposed to just notice that you are distracted in a non-judgemental way and go back to what you are meditating on. It's how you practice meditation. at least mindful meditation.

>>9719 Is it pointless to learn how to snorkel around a coral reef when you could just buy a ticket for one of those guided tours on a boat with a glass bottom and a full service bar?

>>9738 >microdosing lsd helps my self control in regards to bad habits hmmm, I suppose you could say that. Mostly microdosing LSD gives me a lot more energy to do things I want to do.

>>9719 Getting the answers without meditation is like uber eats, sure it might taste good, but you can't understand the monumental process it took for the food to get in front on you

Meditation is a skill that develops over time and can be used like muscle memory in any situation, if I happen to remember I can. I can't use previous psychedelic experiences like that, It's just a memory of a perspective I had that's colored by my current mindset. Or the experiences are already integrated into my current sense of self.

it's not the same, but it's similar. the point is building up the training which is going to matter a lot

>state that take years for serious meditators to achieve It's not hard, the trick is recognizing that the sense of self, or felt center is also just an appearance in consciousness. You don't think or try do anything, awareness itself will "snap" back into this natural, effortless, boundless state. It's all easy and effortless. Feel the space of awareness from this vantage and lets everything dissolve into a cloud of sensation. Your identify will dissolve and become this space of awareness and then you can see the sense of self in that cloud, and it has the same energy/signature as everything else appearing in subjective experience.

>>9719 because the meditators can do that soykaf on command, for free, anywhere they want, with no drawbacks and an enormous amount of incredibly significant positive effects unrelated to psychosis. It also poses no risk and requires no trust. They are not the same.

>>9970 pointers are helpful for making this shift, remember not to think or try do anything, awareness itself has to do the work. if the pointers work, awareness will unhook from your self, and go back and all around, and once you recognize the shift, just stay there. It sorta feels like a flow state. Look at an object on your table, notice you feel like a subject looking out at an object, notice that this too is just a feeling arising in consciousness. You can try pointing at the object with your finger, and another back at your head or face. What is aware of being aware? Turn awareness on itself. Where is your head? You can't see it, it's not appearing in consciousness.

the only thing i can confidently say about this topic is that meditation is free, will cultivate additional benefits such as discipline, and there's a zero percent chance of fuarrrking your brain up forever. i prefer meditation, but i've only ever done psychs twice in my life so what do i know

psychs are a treat. a lesson. for once in a while. they can remind you how to meditate properly, whatever that means, but they shouldn't be a baseline consciousness, just cause their a drug. you shouldn't wanna be taking acid all the time just like you shouldn't wanna smoke weed all the time or drink all the time. you want your body to be a slave for you not you a slave for your body.

>>9976 >you want your body to be a slave for you not you a slave for your body. I am my body. But overall correct. A wise man once said: "when you get the message, hang up the phone"

>>9974 >zero percent chance of fuarrrking your brain up i dont know, for some, glimpsing that awareness of awareness state, and being as awareness, can lead to negative depersonlization/derealization.

>>9993 I'm usually for equanimity and just noticing whatever is arising, but cultivating loving-kindness, through deliberate imagination/memory/mantras can turn a cold, detached space, into a warm, interconnected and unified space. Dropping back as awareness usually has a natural warmth and unity for me though.

>>9977 >"when you get the message, hang up the phone" Acid showed me where I can get to with meditation. The flickering reality that coheres into all perception, malleable, a single moment of which can be isolated and studied. If I could reach that on my own, and in control...

>>10012 >If I could reach that on my own, and in control... Look for what feels like you, in the center of consciousnesses, without effort, but with awareness. It will be subtle shift at first. awareness will feel more spacious, detached from the efforter/thinker, moving from the content to the context, just notice and stay there. You can try closing your eyes, sensing your room, and sending awareness behind you and up in the corner. Look for where that was sent from. If this pointer works, it will be immediate shift, you just have to notice and stay there. Once you see it, it's easy to do, but subtle effort and striving gets in the way.

>>10035 i would be cautious if you start having kundulini type experiences or open awareness experiences. it's basically controlled psychosis and depersonalization. if you try to stabilize it outside of sitting meditation, it's going to be around for a long time.

Is it pointless to lift when I can just blast my ass on steroids into a state that takes years for serious lifters to achieve?

>>10095 A western psychiatrist would probably diagnose you with a depersonalization disorder, but non-dual states generally have a effortless equanimity, warmth, patience and openness to them for most people, it's very positive and feels like MDMA/LSD to be honest. Something you can access on demand, and hopefully shift to and from a dualist/non-dualist perspective as needed. The biggest problem would be spiritual bypassing, using it to avoid developmental and emotional issues.

>>10095 any tips on stablising it? i can get there standing still with my eyes open, i'm back into awareness, very alert but relaxed, my visual field is wide open, everything looks bright, I'm identified and connected to all sensations and space but when i start walking, i quickly lose it.

i did ~50UG LSD last friday, if i do 150UG this friday will i feel anything? I dont want hardcore tied-to-bed trip, just heavily distorted headspace while i am reading/watchong movies

>>10114 You're already planning on tripping again way too early. You need to give your serotonergenic system a fuarrrking break.

>>10114 It's different for everyone, but tolerance fully resets anywhere from one to two weeks for most people, LSD seems to have longer lasting tolerance than tryptamines and phenethyamines for most people.

>>10104 You are still awareness, the visual field is just one small area of the whole of awareness that is changing and unfolding in consciousness. Just let it flow, as if the world is moving through you. Any sense of subject-object means you lost it and need to reshift.

>>10115 i do tramadol once every week so probably "serotonergenic system" gets fuarrrked anyway. But next week i have fully remote work, so it would be nice to use this chance (i can wake up later entire following week, so i imagine i can quickly and better get regenerated after sleepless tripping night

>>9719 Both meditation and psychedelics are tools. Psychedelics are sure way faster to get you up there, but it's not pointless to have polished meditation. For example, being able to meditate during a trip will surely have a synergic effect. Its good for your day to day too.

https://youtu.be/qtqP_gA0rXA

i started trying to seriously meditate because of this thread, and im surprised at how powerful the euphoria from jhanas are. why don't they talk about this more? i would have tried sooner.

>>10315 One form of russian meditation involves sitting in front of a mirror with a single lit candle as your only light. If you stare into your own reflection and empty your mind, it causes you to have a profound experience of introspection. Unfortunately, doing this on psychedelics may cause you to burn your house down.

>Unfortunately, doing this on psychedelics may cause you to burn your house down. You really know how to get people interested lol, I should try this. Didn't know Russia had it's own meditation traditions though. Can you expand on the cultural context of this practice? >>10315 Good to hear lainon. You might also want to try out loving-kindness meditation (don't be put off by the hippie name) and mindfulness walking meditation.

I was once at a Buddhist festival and a monk told me that meditation was not about psychedelic experiences. I knew that already but he probably thought I looked the type. Which I have been on occasion but meditation is about inner peace and perceiving emptiness directly. Buddhists would see infinite spiralling vortexes as as annoying distraction.

>>10315 The dharma police doesn't like piti addicts.

>>10323 It sounds like a form of hesychasm.

>>10320 Whatever works, it doesn't matter what you concentrate on. Even 10 minutes of laser pointed concentration on any object will put one into a pleasant altered state. From there you can do insight meditation into no-self or impermanence or whatever to collect aha moments.

>>9737 I have had similar such 'thoughts about thoughts' on weed, but I do find it hits me a lot harder than most. Are you slightly ASD/ADHD with mood polarity by chance?