Java/C#

Why does Java/C# get crapped on so hard here? Corporations like Netflix use spring stack java, even Google search OG version was written in Java + Python, tons of silicon valley + startup companies use Java, not to mention a thousand different non tech corporations using Java or C# for internal business applications. Hobbyists use Java and for "hackathons", not to mention half of all computer science departments in Universities use Java/C# (or C++). Yet ask around here it's like Java was outdated in 1999. People have this weird image of "mainstream" languages like their idea of Java is stuck in 2005 or something, when Java apps were heavyweight, overengineered design-patternified goliaths. Meanwhile you can write a spring boot java app nowadays that literally requires zero xml (outside the pom file) because its all annotations now. Do people just love to hate these languages because it's their day job? IMO the point of a language is to build something that works, and is maintainable and extendable by other people, and Java/C# does that. To the extent certain corps are moving away from Java its for patent/copyright reasons like Google. And what do they switch to? Other JVM languages like Kotlin/Scala/Groovy. On the MS side of things people seem pretty satisfied with C# and maybe F# if they're feeling edgy. At the very least the JVM/CLR platforms are going to continue far far into the future, and not just on legacy projects but greenfield projects as well. Even in a microservice environment java shops will probably just switch to quarkus+graalvm/micronaut/eclipse microprofile over depending if they're coming from a spring or "vanilla" JavaEE/J2EE background. If a language powers a ton of major companies and websites isn't there something to be said about it? Isn't the proof in the pudding? As the creator of C++ said, "There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses.". The only major language I see coming to disrupt any of this is golang, and even that's low level enough that its more of a systems programming language than anything related to back end web dev. Again, I just think much of the Java/C# hate here and on other /g/ boards is actually irrational and either born of ignorance of the state of modern Java/C# or devs seething about their day jobs. Again Java and C# are perfectly respectable choices along with other languages like JS/TS, golang, and python. **P.S. Even if you are a functional programming cultist it makes no sense to like python but hate java because guido is far more opposed to FP than oracle.**

A lot of young devs are told that Java is slow and verbose. They end up parroting that, which the next generation of young devs then picks up on. And so the cycle goes on. I imagine most go on to re-evaluate their views. I think C# suffers a bit less from this because of Unity, so young devs are less likely to want to look down on it. Lately I've really been loving Kotlin. Everything I want from Java with a modern shine to it. Google recently released the Jetpack Compose UI library for Android + Desktop. Have had some fun playing around with that.

>>28096 Java was the first language I ever learned, and while it definitely doesn't suck, there are so few use cases where I feel comfortable implementing Java these days that I sometimes pretend it doesn't exist. The JVM is a fuarrrking disaster, for starters, and it's the opposite of how people should manage runtimes and portability IMO. Learning Python really opened my eyes to how much of Java is meaningless cruft, and supposedly Go is already usurping the portability/performance throne with perfect retard-proofing. Like the other lainon mentioned, Kotlin is also very comfy in present year, but has even more limited use cases than Java. I get the appeal of using Java for a project, but 9 times out of 10 you're just going to end up rewriting it in a more performant language anyways. C# is pretty easy to explain though: dotnet is fuarrrking garbage. >Again Java and C# are perfectly respectable choices along with other languages like JS/TS, golang, and python. None of those languages are respectable choices, if we're being honest. You should learn a proper systems language like C++ or Rust and see how it fits into your workflow.

>>28100 What do you work on where c++ or rust are a good default choice of tool?

People think of Java as a relic of the 90s because it kind of is. Its design is heavily informed by what was fashionable back when it was created, and now that the programming landscape has changed it seems weird and dated.

>>28096 Java is not a bad language, is just too strict. You can achieve the same things in almost any other language without needing to apply every OOP principle in existence.

>>28100 > I get the appeal of using Java for a project, but 9 times out of 10 you're just going to end up rewriting it in a more performant language anyways. If you write it in ABCL, you get to switch to another implementation with minimal friction if that becomes a problem.

>>28096 >Meanwhile you can write a spring boot java app nowadays that literally requires zero xml (outside the pom file) because its all annotations now. I love Java but will probably never use Spring* because of this. I'd rather use something like vert.x which is direct and to the point. >The only major language I see coming to disrupt any of this is golang I don't think any language where the devs only use text editors to write it will ever supplant Java. Java raises the bar largely via the strength of its tools; Big heavyweight IDEs like Eclipse. Using a text editor vs an IDE is like using a garden spade vs a backhoe. There's just no overlap in the type of jobs those things do.

>>28100 >mentions rust >owns laptop, ladies shoes, and underwear >dresses laptop in them and believes this is sexy.jpg Why are rust users like this?

>>28100 >The JVM is a fuarrrking disaster, for starters, and it's the opposite of how people should manage runtimes and portability IMO this is exactly the sort of pseud nonsense I would expect out of this board. The JVM is a marvel of modern software engineering and built on top of 20+ years of rock solid engineering. Anyway there's kindof a disconnect with this anon because he's talking about systems programming when 85%+ of all programmers are web devs now, for which Rust, let alone C++ is an overkill.

>>28100 >I get the appeal of using Java for a project, but 9 times out of 10 you're just going to end up rewriting it in a more performant language anyways. see, this the java "java is dead and the jvm is like kicking dead whales down the beach!" crowd, I wonder what this guy knows that companies including FAANG don't. "JAVA IS DEAD" they shout, as its #2 on the language index. This is the meme advice bubble of /g/'s and tech boards, even briefly skimming any job listing sites will show at least 25% to a third of them are still advertising java. <Again Java and C# are perfectly respectable choices along with other languages like JS/TS, golang, and python. >None of those languages are respectable choices, if we're being honest. You should learn a proper systems language like C++ or Rust and see how it fits into your workflow. The languages this anon says are "not respectable choices" make up 70% of the job market and the other 30% is probably PHP. Again, I ask what wisdom this anon has access to that a huge number of companies out there, that have an incentive of money on the line and their core business dependent on it, would not know and he would. But no, an anon writing hello worlds and toy projects in lang XYZ definitely knows what's best. I'm sure Rust has legitimate use cases, but its fans ruin this with a cultist mentality similar to what le functional programming people did in the 2010s. As for anon's complaint that Java is slow, again this is a meme from the 90s/early 2000s when that was actually true. Java is about as fast as a garbage collected language is ever gonna get, most of the time its only twice as slow as C/C++ and in some cases as fast as native code (and even faster in special circumstances due to being able to do dynamic runtime optimizations). Again, there's a reason even most new languages use the jvm or clr runtimes as platforms. And its hilarious to me for you to praise python which is an order of magnitude slower than Java due to dynamic types having to be checked at runtime. That "meaningless cruft" as you so put it is called having documented code, being able to see type information, provide encapsulation, which python doesn't do FYI due to not having privacy modifiers. In any case Java is a lot less boilerplatey than it used to be. >>28115 That's true, but the design has also been updated with new features. incorporated from Scala and other nu-jvm langs like streams, lambdas, option types, etc. Again, I'd encourage any lurkers to due their own research instead of believing these unemployed hobbyists, and devs seething about their day jobs.

I'm just here to nitpick really, but >>28125 >python [...] is an order of magnitude slower than Java due to dynamic types having to be checked at runtime. That is not why Python (CPython, really) is slow, it is mostly a naive interpreter built with performance taking very low priority. You can take SBCL as an example of a implementation for a dynamically-typed language with competitive performance.

>>28103 Not >>28100, but C++ and Rust are excellent options for backend services that take up a lot of load or just plain infrastructure software such as operating systems or network equipment. In some companies C++ is used to build RESTful microservices, so it is far from a meaningless option in modern software engineering.

>>28122 >Java raises the bar largely via the strength of its tools; Big heavyweight IDEs like Eclipse. Using a text editor vs an IDE is like using a garden spade vs a backhoe. There's just no overlap in the type of jobs those things do. A large part of that is being invalidated by LSP, with people recycling the parts of those large IDEs to use everywhere. Now, that doesn't mean Java will lose anything here, but it removes IDEs as the main factor. >>28125 > Again, there's a reason even most new languages use the jvm or clr runtimes as platforms. That reason is mostly the convenience of avoiding needing to write implementations for every architecture around, and to get a free large library corpus like Java already has. >That's true, but the design has also been updated with new features. incorporated from Scala and other nu-jvm langs like streams, lambdas, option types, etc. Java significantly improved around Java 8. It was a lot more annoying to write before that.

The rule that applies for most companies is "the longer a programming language has remained relevant the safest bet it is". For general purpose development Java and C# do the job, provide frameworks to make life easy, have an active community that can get you out of trouble and have been around for enough time to not bother looking for other things. Functional programming has advantages, but a lot of those are for the coders, they don't translate to saving costs or clearly tangible improvements in performance or on development time even. Think it's clear at this point no single language will eat the others anytime soon, COBOL and PHP are indeed still around and not exactly fading to irrelevance either.

>>28145 >LSP Eventually a text editor may become IDE-like if you bolt on enough plugins and features like LSP, but you waste a lot of time and mental energy trying to figure out how to configure a text editor to do IDE things. Not only that, but if you have an IDE, then you can assume a baseline of functionalty when trying to support other programmers. With text editors, you first have to run through a list of "did you install this, did you install that, did you configure this .json file there." Java has multiple good IDEs with deep integration with the Java language itself. Most Java developers use an IDE, because text editors are clearly a poor choice by comparison. Using a text editor because the language doesn't have a good IDE is simply coping with the fact that there's no IDE.

I work with java. The entire backend codebase is a disaster. It was repurposed two times and integrated Spring after the second repurpose. People say that you can do anything with Java. That is the problem.

>>28155 >>28122 Can someone explain what IDEs are even so good for? I used to use Eclipse, but i didn't see much of a point and we don't have a vim plugin, so i just use vim now. The only thing i really miss is refactoring, but that's a very small part of what i do. What am i missing?

>>28155 >Java has multiple good IDEs with deep integration with the Java language itself. And none of them are Emacs unless you use LSP, so I'm not interested.

>>28159 autosuggesting the correct library to import is convenient. As is underlining code thats currently broken/syntactically incorrect

>>28159 there's so much, where do I start... debugging, souce control, task management, unit testing, file search for java specifically, integration with java tooling such as maven/gradle/ant, correctly handling multiple installed JREs, refactor, hoverdocs, type hierarchies then there are plugins for anything that might make you need to leave the IDE plugins for docker, terminal, sonar, jenkins, aws, db admin, on the fly decompiling, etc etc etc why would I want to go to search.maven.org in a browser when I can find everything directly through the IDE why would I want to go hunting down maven plugin documentation when I can just autocomplete my way through the <configuration> element with hoverdocs? Everything just happens in the IDE and it is mostly configured for you out of the box

Bloated, verbose, no good AOT compiler until GraalVM is "done", forces OOP into all of your holes all the time without being as clean as Smalltalk/Self or CLOS on that matter, uses memory as if it were growing on trees and most important of all, not for hackers, only corporate drones: you CAN'T have fun using the Java ecosystem. Lusers ignore the bloat because they're just too novice to have been forced to dive deep into their sandcastles built on gigantic swamps where something broke. They're just stuck in their Blub lang bucket. http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/java for fun

>>28189 >repeating paul grahams terminology from 2001 you realize thats basically proving ops point about meme advice right? plus even PG himself says write in clojure now which is a jvm lang

>>28197 Are you only replying to the last line that I purposedly declared to be "for fun"?

>>28200 Not that lainon. > Are you only replying to the last line that I purposedly declared to be "for fun"? > Lusers ignore the bloat because they're just too novice to have been forced to dive deep into their sandcastles built on gigantic swamps where something broke. They're just stuck in their Blub lang bucket. I think the answer is no.

>>28096 >Why does Java/C# get crapped on so hard here? C# used to be non-free software and it is heavily tied to M$ even nowadays (unlike Java). Java is good language for applications that are started once and run for a long time (ie. business apps) . I guess another reason to hate Java or C# is that they implement OOP badly when compared to Smalltalk or Ruby. Also both Java and C# are very verbose languages. Java and C# also have bad reputation because some programmers use design patterns just for the sake of using them (instead of actually designing the program properly).

>>28204 >>28096 >C# used to be non-free software and it is heavily tied to M$ even nowadays (unlike Java) They again went and tried (succeeded?) in recrippling their stuff too: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/update-on-net-hot-reload-progress-and-visual-studio-2022-highlights/ tl;dr Paywalling a feature that used to work >Java and C# also have bad reputation because some programmers use design patterns just for the sake of using them (instead of actually designing the program properly). Enterprise Ready(tm) programming (no thought, only bloat) is a cancer regardless of the language, it's just incidental that C# & Java are popular with businesses.

>>28189 >Bloated, verbose, no good AOT compiler until GraalVM is "done" Define done graalvm can compile javafx apps that run on iOS, Android, Mac, Windows, and Linux (x86&aarch64) It is pretty incredible desu

>>28142 C++ and Rust are not a good default choice for microservices or backend services. I enjoy both languages, but that's just not a use-case where they shine. Generally companies only build C++ services for specialised use-cases. Facebook runs mostly Php, with some select C++ services (and others) in the mix. Choose the right tool for the job at hand.

>>28205 >Paywalling VS is literally free in its community edition

I hate to wait several minutes after launching IDE for all indexing and classes to compiler. Then another few minutes for bloated piece of soykaf app to deploy on app server. Then i fight with JSF or some other dumb soykaf by cycles of facepalms then googling then redeploys. After few hours of redeploys i am surprised why app stoped working. Oh... its nothing you just need to restart app server (app server is eating your RAM and harddrive space by just working in background until it eats everything and you need to restard it, there is no solution, app server just work like that). Lets hope computer wont soykaf itself into eternal freeze by endless cycles of rebuilding + browser opened with 100 pages of obscure soykaf.

>>28233 Yes, it's never your fault

>>28234 ok then what should i do? If i cant even start work without sever minutes of file indexing and hot reloading. Then i change git branch, because of sudden fix, and lose another several minutes on project rebuild and i lost flow. What should i do, master?

Thats what i am talking about for example so thats not just me https://powerspace.tech/what-is-wrong-with-my-intellij-idea-79a6abb943f1 Note, that "Invalidate Cache/Restart" itself may take sevaral minutes and causes reindexing

>>28227 You didn't read properly. Not Visual Studio Code. Visual Studio. The large, slow, cumbersome proprietary piece of soykaf payware of an IDE they still maintain.

>>28244 cont Also apparently they backpedaled https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/net-hot-reload-support-via-cli/ .

>>28235 no that lain, but it sounds like you have slow computer slow network memory leaks in your program and you're blaming all that on your IDE. Futhermore, you can turn off automatic builds, it's a menu item. If your computer is so slow that it takes several minutes to incremental compile, then perhaps you should consider that. It's on by default, because most of us don't develop on dogshit computers.

>>28096 I like Java, but despise the culture around it and the ecosystem. Spring Boot and its clones overdo abstractions to the extreme, and they make web programming more boring than it already is. No wonder so many people hate Java as a whole when they see "Enterprise" Java code. see https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition

>>28244 I did read properly. Visual Studio is free. You have to pay for a license only if you have a company or something like that.

>>28096 >The only major language I see coming to disrupt any of this is golang As someone who has written a lot of both java and go in production, definitely not. At least, I hope to god not. Not that Golang is that bad, it's just... _okay_.>>28096

>>28123 or he posted a random image he got from somewhere on the internet I'm still of the impression a lainon wouldn't dress his macbook to post it but maybe it's time to reconsider my image of a lainon

>>28159 eclipse does have a vim plugin, worse than the vscode one but its there

>>28096 >Why does Java/C# get crapped on so hard here? Java and C# aren't really popular in free culture etc spheres. The kind of people who don't have a strong negative response to the word "enterprise" don't tend to come on lainchan. As far as the languages themselves, C# isn't great because microsoft can't hold a consistent vision, so they keep adding random soykaf. Java is mediocre, but not notably/hilariously bad like e.g. C++, which historically was its selling point, during the "OOP" hype era. A lot of the patterns in both of those languages didn't really age well, particularly error handling using exceptions. And in general, I don't really have faith in java's history and its future to have interests aligned with my own. There's a java GUI app (given to me by my uni) that just loads to a grey screen that I need to find a workaround for because "run anywhere" means "on the platforms we care about". As for C#, if you're not writing a dotnet program for windows then there's not really much point. If you are, then it's obviously the language to use. This is why I'm not using it for my projects at least. >half of all computer science departments in Universities use Java/C# (or C++). Well yes. If something popular starts being taught, it remains popular. Now, if you want to hire java devs, you can hire fresh graduates, and you don't have to train them in another programming language, which means you have an incentive to use java if the switching cost is higher than the opportunity cost of basic training in a different (better) language. What matters is whether this choice to teach java is altruistic, and given that the reason this trend began in the first place was because of "industry", I doubt it. >Do people just love to hate these languages because it's their day job? Probably not. >IMO the point of a language is to build something that works, and is maintainable and extendable by other people This isn't a language feature. There is unusable, unreadable, unworkable code in your favourite language no matter what. Enterprise fizzbuzz is writting in java, but isn't any of those things. Someone I know who has worked with java says he can't really find it funny, having seen code like that in real life. So I don't really understand this point. Languages aren't maintanable, software is maintainable. >If a language powers a ton of major companies and websites isn't there something to be said about it? Nothing beyond "it 'powers' a ton of major companies and websites". Wordpress is popular and "powers a ton of websites". It isn't good and I wouldn't make a website using it. It doesn't really mean much. >Again Java and C# are perfectly respectable choices Sure. Most talk about languages is stupid anyway, since it's a low effort way to feel like you're involved in something. or whatever. Ultimately what language you use is not that important, which makes this thread and this post I'm writing kind of a waste of time. But whatever. >golang, [... is] more of a systems programming language than anything related to back end web dev Go is the definition of "a backend web dev language". That's its main purpose and something it's appropiate for.

>bruh a corpo uses this bruh every single meme lib and language is used by the top corpos in one of their hundreds of codebases. anything on github with over 100 stars is used by some big corpo. its so basic to know that the software industry is structued this way, makes me wonder if anyone is aware of anything at all

>>28096 Java/C# is hated because these languages are both designed from the ground up to be boring, predictable and productive. OOP as a whole is designed for data-heavy, application-facing tasks. Put simply, writing business logic and ORM class definitions is boring as fuarrrk, and that's the bulk of what Java/C# are optimized for. End of the day, the design requirements of java/C# are that of plain and simple labor. There's no thought. There's no original algorithm. There's no clever solution. All you have is tables upon tables of database, neatly serialized into classes upon classes of business logic. Java/C#/OOP heavy languages are disliked by /g/ users because they are not representative of what the average hobbyist programmer expects programming to be. They want mental stimulation only to be presented with mediocrity (and some spaghetti, considering the average scale of a web project).

>>30344 >Put simply, writing business logic and ORM class definitions is boring as fuarrrk, and that's the bulk of what Java/C# are optimized for While I see your point, it still is way more painful to build that stuff in there than it should be. After working with a java codebase I tried python with django and it's the difference sometimes is light and day. I pray that no one ever has to map urls in a xml file or use jsp pages. Even if you simply build a rest api, it still feels way more verbose and slugghish than it should be. Even modeling tables to a database is more tedious. In java you need to put annotations everywhere to map some class to a database table and kinda hope it turns out right while your whole view is spammed by getters and setters, while in django you simply import model class at the top of the file and you directly build your own classes in there as if they were SQL tables with fields. None of this weird conversion needed between objects and tables, and no getters and setters everywhere. Spring tries to make that stuff easy too, but unilike django which feels just simple to use, spring feels like a black box that I have utterly no clue what it does. The only language which could be used in enteprise space and is fun to me is Kotlin. Which actually is fairly short to write, you can simply make objects with var = Object() instead of java's Object Var = new Object(); There are no explicit getters and setters everywhere. Has a good mix of functional and Object Oriented programming, so you don't fall into a trap of using only one to the extreme. In general it's actually fun to write and doesn't give me thoughts of peeling the skin off my face.

>>30344 I think a distinction should be drawn regarding OOP. Common Lisp's CLOS is nowhere near as unpleasant or limited. Common Lisp lends itself very well to object-orientation based on multimethods/generics.

>>30344 this is correct. 99% of java haters dont like it because its too simple and they want to spend their entire attention learning a languange instead of solving whatever problem they have (they have none, due to being LARPers) if you look at java closely this all breaks down though and java's actually a horribly complex mess. there's still the remaining 1% though who know Java is dogwater. install SML >neatly serialized acktchyually

Speaking of Java, whatever happened with Groovy? i renember hearing that it'd eventually become a decent alternative for scripting tasks on the JVM environments and now looks like is just there to maintain building scripts. One might think that Gradle and GraalVM would bring him back to relevance, but nope.

>>30345 And who likes python? Python is the blandest soykaf ever, it may be even worse than Java by >>30344's measure. If anyone here is caught using python, it's probably because it was their first language, and because the languages trending here either have no usable libraries or are nontrivial to program where "traditional" methods of programming are straightforward, so they default to the language they first used.

>>31764 Or maybe someone just want a throwaway script to do something that can't be done comfortably with POSIX sh. Arguably you've Perl and some Lisp/Scheme dialects for that, hell maybe even Clojure now that babashka/nbb is a thing, but meh, if is an unimportant churn, leave it to the easiest thing available and that's Python. Now that i think about it, i wonder what's going to happen with the JVM ecosystem now that Graalvm is a thing. Maybe someone could write a decent standalone interpreter for Kotlin at some point, as the native kotlin scripting interface still requires a JDK installed IIRC.

>>28124 You are 100% correct. JVM is very performant and configurable, but people assume slow startup time == slow, when they haven't properly tuned the VM to their work flow.

>>28215 >C++ and Rust are not a good default choice for microservices or backend services. I enjoy both languages, but that's just not a use-case where they shine. "backend" means different things to different people. You would write a SQL server in C++, you wouldn't write the microservice that accesses the SQL server to serve web requests in C++.

>>31764 Programming is a means to an end. If I need performance I'll write in C++, but otherwise, why bother when I can do >import solution

>>31764 Why wouldn't I use Python if I want to make a quick script. The tools are already there and it's simple enough to meet my goals. Language elitists I'm 100% sure are first year C/C++ students with a contrarian mindset.

>>33955 Not him but I learned Python first, then Javascript and PHP for webshit. But being poor and forced to work with a soykafty notebook that lags for several seconds on the most basic tasks caused me to become obsessed with performance in every aspect of my system. I quickly learned that C is actually more than enough for any task and the only "argument" people have against C is that other languages justifies their jobs, which leads to soykafty corporate software that is buggy and slow.

>>28204 > Also both Java and C# are very verbose languages implying that verbosity is a bad thing, when it gives so much more context about something's function compared to non-verbose langs also verbosity means i have to write less comments about what any line/block of code does

I haven't seen anyone mentioning it yet, so... > Amber > Loom > Panama >Valhalla Java and its ecosystem are evolving constantly in PresentDay.presentTime() HAHAHAHAHA

>>33966 Javas verbosity makes it far harder to read than most languages. assembler.assemble(myService.doWork(myDto)); Vs a good language like OCaml assemble @@ My_service.do_work myDto Less characters, easier to parse, less verbose, no parent spam or object . soykaf

>>33969 And what the hell (operator noise) is `@@`?

>>34009 Just shorthand function application you could also use a pipeline for this

>>33969 Ocaml looks worse in this example, but its compiler is so nice and helpful, java tooling is plentiful but it feels far less helpful in the run compile test loop