Favourite OS/Distro

What OS or distro do you use and why? I tend to use Archcraft, a fork of arch, because it comes with Zsh preinstalled and overall works like a more standard full featured distro while only using 450 MB of ram on idle. A buddy of mine was up until recently a huge fan of Nix and got me to use it but I hated it and quickly went back to Arch/Archcraft.

QubesOS. Everything else is absurdly dangerous. You must simply not care about security if you dont use it. Additionally it serves as a platform for debian, fedora, arch and even windows so there is massive flexibility and usability. I dont really see any alternative and cant comprehend why people would not use it. It is obviously not suitable for gaming but i just have second pc for that.

FreeBSD and Windows. FreeBSD just does everything I need it to do and its way more usable than OpenBSD. I like the design and some of the features, ports, jails etc. Its very nice. I installed OpenBSD yesterday and I've decided to give it another shot but I'm not liking it so far. The design of the operating system is very good but doesn't meet my needs or taste. I use Windows for gaming. Pretty much self-explanatory.

Red Hat Fedora and Debian. Fedora just works (tm), has everything I need to get things done. Debian is very stable and very popular, so any software or projects I would like to try out lik ely have support without having to build from source. >>78193 Do you mind saying what hardware you use? I've been interested in trying Qubes for some time but the hardware requirements seem somewhat daunting.

>>78192 >What OS or distro do you use and why? Gentoo Linux, because it's the most flexible/tweakable/customizable without being as tedious or error-prone as LFS. Personally I use it because there's no other distro (besides maybe Alpine?) that lets me ditch systemd and glibc, but also lets me use SELinux. >>78193 >Everything else is absurdly dangerous. You must simply not care about security if you dont use it >I dont really see any alternative and cant comprehend why people would not use it Qubes is prettt cool, but at the end of the day it's just Fedora and Xen with a GUI. Besides, it only runs on x86_64, which is what's truly absurdly dangerous here.

I usually flip-flop between debian and arch. Debian just works and has better support for my preferred desktop environment but Arch has the AUR.

Arch Linux. Because I dont like having pre installed software in my OS and its more soykafty when the OS depends on it that you cant delete it off without problems (Opensuse + YAST)

>>78198 > it only runs on x86_64, which is what's truly absurdly dangerous here. Why is that dangerous?

I use Devuan because it comes without systemd.

>>78192 I guess I'd say Arch, but I'm distro hopping again after years of it. systemd concerns me, it lacks the amount of control I'm starting to desire in my OS, and modern OS' are so complex nowadays. I really want something I can mostly comprehend as a single person :( I'm going to be trying out Alpine, Gentoo, and FreeBSD, and if those suck then Void or Artix. The latter 2 lean more towards hobbyist distros with a lack of critical teal world usage though :/ thanks for reading my loonix blog

>>78192 Debian Stable with MATE. Kept switching back-and-forth between Windows and Debian (with standard GNOME) so I swallowed my pride and tried it out. I had low expectations because people made it seem like GNOME was what everyone should use if they wanted a reliable DE. It ended up being one of the best computing decisions I've ever made; it's probably the closest thing you can get to a GNU/Linux setup that "just works". I also enjoy having so much control over how my system functions from the get-go, whereas with GNOME I had to constantly poke around with config files deep within the bowels of the OS for basic functionality not present in the UI. That being said, I don't think it's an optimal combo for "normal" people. Packages are a bit out of date, the UI generally looks "old" (some people care about that), and there isn't as much hand-holding as you'd get with Ubuntu. I found myself able to adapt to it relatively well because it still felt like a breath of fresh air compared to what I was dealing with before. It doesn't get in my way (again, like Ubuntu) but it's easy to use and manage.

>>78212 I've tried minimalist sway setups on Arch, Alpine, Void, etc and I don't see how Arch and systemd are that complex to use. You can easily setup a practical daily driver with <400 packages and I prefer systemd-boot over GRUB, or networkd+iwd over some of the other bizarre setups I've seen. I know Madaidan hates it and Micay has criticized it in the past for large attack surface, but considering the alternatives, I'm not convinced systemd is significantly worse for security than other linux staples like glibc, coreutils, or the kernel itself. I guess if you're a libre purist or find the systemd devs obnoxious then sure, go for something else. Not to say Alpine or the others are bad choices; I think apk and busybox are fun to use. >>78193 Chest-puffing like this is obnoxious. Qubes is good but flawed, ask the devs themselves. Security through compartmentation depends a lot on the end user's ability to stick to best practices (read: usability). Projects like Spectrum are admirable but unfortunately lack the attention they need. For any newlains reading this, please think through your threat model and your day to day computer habits before jumping into the deep end with Qubes and the like. >Everything else is absurdly dangerous. You must simply not care about security if you dont use it. >It is obviously not suitable for gaming but i just have second pc for that. lawl

Has there ever been a cross between OpenBSD and GNU Linux?

>>78221 Huh? Like GNU BSD variants? https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html

>>78222 I meant like something like that has whatever makes BSD more secure but able to run Linux programs or would that defeat that?

>>78224 What part of BSD do you consider more secure? Are you talking about things like using doas instead of sudo?

>>78225 Sorry ive been drinking and unfortunately I cant recall what I had in mind. I just know there is some things BSD systems do that is less common on Linux systems maybe it was something to do with cryptographics or compartmentalization. If it isnt an easy answer then never mind. Id have to do a lot of digging on what makes the differences and what matters.

>>78228 sorry Ive been thinking and unfortunately I cant recall what I had to drink.

>>78195 >Do you mind saying what hardware you use? I've been interested in trying Qubes for some time but the hardware requirements seem somewhat daunting. I got one of the certified machines https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/certified-hardware/

>>78192 Currently using Gentoo. Might change, although I really like Gentoo. I just wish there was like something like Gentoo without the compiling. I'd like to be able to block packages based on USE flags. For example. If I don't want any KDE related stuff I should be able to just set USE flags to block KDE and then offer alternatives for that package.

I'm running devuan. It's lightweight and comes with no systemd. I'm currently building my own small distro, I have wanted to do it for a while now. I read through LFS abit, got bored and decided to do it my way(sounds crazy but it's not such a big deal). Anyways after a couple of struggles and success setting up a cross compiler I finally succeed automating the build process. I can now have a cross compiler and fresh system root within 30minutes ;) Now i can experiment with whatever setup my mind comes up with. It's pretty fun building up your own distro.

>>78192 Am i just too much of a normal person for using out of the box Mint? I'm really not into programming, computers, or stuff like that. I just really hate Microsoft. Am I missing out on too much staying on this distro?

>>78249 If you dont know what you are missing you arent missing anything.

>>78250 Just hope i don't score any viruses. Updates don't seem to be all that frequent. Wish i'd been born a techie, to be honest.

>>78225 I have a better idea of what I heard of after some more reading. I was talking about virtualization mainly in mind. I heard one of the major things making BSD considered more secure on average is it's jails. It seems in Linux closest to this is containers more specifically LXC / LXD / Incus. Is that correct?

>>78193 I dont really agree with this. For most people, a web browser being compromised is game over as that means all online identity being compromised. For a techie that does. ...stuff on computer and has important data, it does make more sense, however there are decent sandboxing solutions on linux that I make use of. Not amazing, but it does give me some peace of mind. I can now use the computer without constantly and furiously hitting the update command.

>>78254 Is there any browser that can be made to have sandboxed individual sites or browser tabs? Basically making it so no website can as easily grab your cookies or cache etc from other sites even if there is an exploit?

>>78255 The point of an exploit is that it's already not meant to be possible but happens anyway. The only solution to that is layers of security and compartmentalisation. The browsers are already doing their best and you have to build more around it, like qubes facilitating putting browsers in disposable virtual machines so you can go as far as you want like even opening a new virtual machine for each website and destroying it when youre finished or whatever

>>78254 >I dont really agree with this. >For most people, a web browser being compromised is game over as that means all online identity being compromised. I dont understand what you mean. These two sentences seem to contradict each other to me. Everyone has a usecase for qubes because web browsing it so dangerous like that and everyone does it.

>>78251 Mint gives you security updates as needed, so that shouldn't be a problem. Updates for new features and soykaf like that is a different story, and the reason I left mint for rolling distros.

Call me basic, but I use Arch mainly, I use Gentoo sometimes and Windows 10 on my main pc, though I am considering using something BSD based or making my own OS

>>78257 No they don't. If you use Qubes and then you only use one Qube with a web browser, then you are about as protected as anyone else running Linux and using a web browser.

>>78224 You can replace sudo with doas which comes from OpenBSD. There used to be a version of Debian that came with a BSD based kernel instead of Linux but they killed that project like a year ago.

>>78263 >replace sudo with doas Yeah I heard from the other Lain on being able to use doas on Linux and I had more clarity here on what I had in mind was more about containerization for security >>78253 >Debian with BSD based kernel killed Was there something wrong with it functionality wise or was it just a hassle for them to maintain the project?

>>78192 >What OS or distro do you use? Void. >And why? stability and flexibility

>>78265 Nope. It was just lack of interest in the project. Idk about containerization on Linux. I don't know Linux too well but afaik they don't have anything like jails. Its only available on FreeBSD.

CRUX using my own compiler scripts, is more barebones than Gentoo the cons being not having use flags but the plus being I can port any program more easily with something more readable than Arch's PKGBUILDs. Last time I checked Gentoo came with stuff by default like python and their ebuilds are less attractive to me, beyond that I have no objection of Gentoo. The other distros I like are Devuan which was easier to install than regular Debian last I checked, Source Mage GNU/Linux which is almost like Gentoo but with bash scripts, and honorable mention to Hyperbola BSD which claims to be releasing an Arch style BSD using a deblobed OpenBSD kernel. >>78238 Would love to see your automation scripts.

I use EndevaourOS on both my ThinkPad and gayming PC. Just werks and its Arch based so everything is up to date. I use KDE on the desktop and xfce on the laptop and both are blazing fast.

on my laptop i use linux mint(i know baby distro) and i use my other computer that is windows for gaming and some programs that dont have a linux equivalent

>>78277 That's unfortunate and I dont know how to code well so I couldnt just make my own thing. >>78287 Looking it up HyperbolaBSD will be a fork of FreeBSD kernel not OpenBSD kernel. So it should have support for more peripheries than OpenBSD. Also looking up Hyperbola GNU/Linux also had Debian code in it not just Arch. So likely Debian code will remain in this HyperbolaBSD I assume.

>>78287 >>78294 Never mind i checked further it was indeed OpenBSD as the base of the kernel with some of the code swapped out but may take code from FreeBSD or HardenedBSD and Linux later in development. https://itsfoss.com/hyperbola-linux-bsd/

FreeBSD, because it's more performant than Linux on my laptop >>78192 >because it comes with Zsh preinstalled brother what? pacman -S zsh

>>78195 >Do you mind saying what hardware you use? I've been interested in trying Qubes for some time but the hardware requirements seem somewhat daunting. i used to run it on a sandy bridge 8gb ram thinkpad T420 youll only really run into trouble with 3D and large videos other than that its smooth sailing up to >10 VMs

MacOS since I moved to Apple late last year. But from the late 90s until late last year I ran Red Hat and then Fedora on everything. Still use Rocky on my personal servers and our company uses Red Hat. Dabbled with other distros over the years but always ended up back with Red Hat / Fedora.

>>78302 There is a few stupid things I liked doing on MacOS like giving files the icon of an app so if someone opens it they are met with a letter I wrote for them. You also can easily hide applications inside of other applications if I recall right. Pic related, apparently there is some effort to make MacOS programs run on a FreeBSD based operating system and designed to look MacOS like. It says "prerelease" which im not sure if that means beta or alpha. https://ravynos.com/

>>78221 >>78299 There is now also the inverse option, Linux kernel with BSD userland allowing it to have a similar user experience to BSDs but with Linux's hw support, also it uses alpine's apk package manager and dinit. Only downside is that it currently has a small amount of packages, i couldn't get any de/wm to work other than GNOME. https://chimera-linux.org/

>>78306 Interesting somewhat but I am not sure there is any advantage to that approach except ease of installation. Apparently FreeBSD has a Linux compatibility layer so it is able to run Linux binaries, though not all of them and can run Wine so it can also run some Windows programs if needed. After looking through Hyperbola's forum I am thinking one of the main devs is an impractical ideologue so I question how functional and usable a HyperbolaBSD would be. https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=910

>>78307 I'll just take the kernel and the Arch userland after they finish Hyperbola and make something of my own.

>>78314 Private OS or something others could use?

>>78224 FreeBSD's Linux compatibility layer is pretty good and you can run most native Linux programs on it easily https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/handbook/linuxemu/

>>78318 That's good though I do wonder what doesn't work. For some reason that link isn't working for me. Though one thing that bothers me on FreeBSD is dropping support for 32 bit. Does that mean you also couldnt run 32bit programs? Some old ones are only available in that; or does it just mean not supporting 32bit chips? I do hope support for RISCV comes into BSD systems in near future as well. Im not aware of it being done yet, ive just seen it mentioned in some Linux distros. How is the hardware support? Comparable to Linux distros at least or just so so?

>>78320 afaik it will run 32 bit Linux programs. FreeBSD is just dropping support for 32 bit chips. I think there already is experimental RISCV support but you should check the documentation. Hardware support is not as good as Linux but a lot better than other BSDs. Nvidia releases drivers for FreeBSD so that's not the headache it is with OpenBSD. Usually, just about everything works out of the box except when it comes to WiFi where there is less support. Besides that, I'd say hardware support is pretty good although its still behind Windows and Linux. If you have trouble with WiFi you might want to check out FreeBSD wifibox.

>>78316 May share it here if there is an interest

I use Devuan because I liked Debian until it went with systemd. Also, Debian support became obnoxious. If I wanted obnoxious, I'd use Arch.

>>78332 Does it have testing repositories like Debian? I tried it a few years ago but the packages where older than the ones in Debian, if that's the case there are good odds of me changing to it.

>>78323 Can't in some cases you could change the driver for the wifi to something open source compatible with the operating system?

>>78332 What's wrong with Debian support? AFAIK stable doesn't break what support do you need?

>>78320 >>78323 >I do hope support for RISCV comes into BSD systems in near future as well. Im not aware of it being done yet, ive just seen it mentioned in some Linux distros. Freebsd supported Risc-v earlier than Linux apparently, also development was funded by DARPA https://wiki.freebsd.org/riscv/history https://freebsdfoundation.blogspot.com/2016/02/initial-freebsd-risc-v-architecture.html It wouldn't surprise me if there is some military soykaf that runs Freebsd on Risc-v but they have stopped sharing their advancements. Openbsd has been supporting Risc-v ever since compilation on bare metal has been practical https://www.openbsd.org/riscv64.html it's by far the bsd with more Risc-v hardware support which is not much to say. >>78336 Only if such driver exists, swapping the network card or using an external one is an option if there are no available drivers.

>>78338 > Freebsd supported Risc-v earlier than Linux apparently, also development was funded by DARPA Huh, I wonder why I had trouble finding that info. I got to stop getting info off DistroWatch as a primary source even though convenient to get info on different OS at a glance. Well if the military uses it fairly quietly then they must trust it to be well secure. Though using RISCV they likely are trying to cut costs and avoid having to distribute non disclosures. Would be funny if there was a leak and the public could get all sorts of patches and features not yet known to the public. > It wouldn't surprise me if there is some military soykaf that runs Freebsd on Risc-v but they have stopped sharing their advancements. Theirs would have to be a lot more advanced than what everyone else has if so since any examples ive seen it looks like the current RISCV setups struggle with more intensive tasks pretty bad. > Only if such driver exists, swapping the network card or using an external one is an option if there are no available drivers. Yeah, I think there is only a fairly limited number of network cards and whatnot that have alternatives. I never done so before so i am not familiar but wanted to plan ahead thinking some time in future id make a laptop with only open sourced everything on it.

I use Artix. I like how it's rolling release and doesn't use SystemD. I think that someday I'll switch to Gentoo. I've tried before, but trying to get FDE working with Gentoo is something of a headache and I haven't succeeded, so that will wait.

I use Debian stable with XFCE. >>78249 My first proper linux installation was mint with Cinnamon. It is fine except for the god-awful nemo file manager (It's only somewhat acceptable compared to the windows one).

I wonder why Linux doesn't just require you give a password before any modification to root not just require one time for admin privileges. Or am I mistaken and this is already the case?

distros were originally handholding soykaf to help pepegas install the OS and libs the fact that distros are commonly accepted in the manosphere proves how soykaf the un*x way is due to overcomplication due to a million hacks with no coordination and you actual retards think youre being more manly because you did more work to do something that can be done with less work a real OS should be easy to configure directly from source easy to maintain directly from source easy to see who wrote what part with automated signature checking on TOFU basis it's not an unrealistic goal, but un*xoids cannot see outside their retarded world, they think vulnerabilities like string injection are normal so they need to update every lib they use every week + half their software is cloutchaserware like firefox that needs additional updates every week for the latest unneeded bullshit like some CSS tweak if you need any more proof just think of how every program on l*nux desktop has 1 of 5 different GUIs each with its own entire stack of language/build system/libs all to make some garbage inconsistent OS with 10 different file pickers. the terminal story is not any different + terminal is insecure buhoomer slop and not even fast like fagg0ts believe you only need one programming language you keep falling for the meme that there are different languages for different purposes because of autistic trannies that make their lifestyle around ruby perl php go rust C C++. C is not needed, if you think that's for performance youre a tool you just need one high level language with one build tool, not 10 build tools per language build scripts are not needed, why the fuarrrk do you 10000th invalid think you need yet another custom build script? if i cant do run <yourcode> because it needs to fuarrrk around with macros for "performance" or some soykaf your code is just garbage. only some unrolled video decoder in assembly needs that soykaf. if its for serialization your soykafs broken: there should only be one serialization format for the one language i use arch btw

>>78365 This has to be bait. I dont like any of the manosphere crap either but Ive not even seen a connection to this personally. But I will respond anyway. I will agree there is issue of lack of coordination in development but it is a common problem in FOSS projects especially if they get big enough corporations astroturf it. And yes ideally maintenance should be easy but of course over time the code naturally will become messier as pieces of code are pushed and pulled. >desktop environment This is understandable since function will differ with form and not everyone wants extra stuff they arent using but what isnt understandable is how some distros or desktop environments dont even work together, it should be that you can just pick whatever you want and it should just work. >file pickers This I find quite odd as well why everything is so disjointed. >terminal Im not a fan of having to use a terminal either though I can see it being useful for some special cases but I think if something can in a visually appealing and logical way be used in a GUI fashion it should be available as such. It is just weird how many distros half ass having a GUI either command line computing or GUI dont stop halfway. >Firefox FF based browsers I just like how it is easier to modify the about:config over anything Chromium based, unfortunately there are not many other options in browser engines and enough websites have to actually properly render. >autistic trannies >lifestyle Arent you just being a lifestylist all the same here ? >ruby Crystal is more promising from what ive read on it but seems no one is using it currently.

>>78365 You haven't made anything useful and worthwhile. You aren't smarter than anybody who has.

>>78365 yes current build scripts/tools are a punishment. as for languages one isn't enough. at least one low level, one high level and one scripting. and then maybe a few languages for very specific tasks like awk or markup, or maybe even latexz though I'm pretty convinced latex is horrible and unusable. the problem is that programmers are retarded so none of the issues are going to addressed ever

>>78213 I have made a drastic change to my setup by installing RHEL 9. Switched away from Debian after trying RHEL in a VM and liking it more. I know it's kinda the antichrist of the Linux world, but so far everything seems okay. Everything feels like it's put together better. Installing MATE was a pain in the fuarrrking ass though.

>>78368 >This I find quite odd as well why everything is so disjointed. Speaking of file pickers, what options do people have? As far as I know, your choices are the GTK garbage, Dolphin's and Nautilus's. If you're going for a minimalist set-up and prefer a different file-manager, none of these options are desirable. Some people suggest keeping your file manager open and dragging files from there, but that's cumbersome and requires extra navigating compared to your browser remembering which folder you last uploaded from on any given website.

>>78403 Additionally, why isn't there daemon that's entire job is to generate image previews of files as soon as one is downloaded, and every file picker would just pull those when opened?

>>78192 >What OS or distro do you use and why? Trisquel GNU/Linux (https://trisquel.info/) because it's fully free software and uses less resources than PureOS by default.

>>78404 Wait Linux doesnt generate previews automatically are you saying?

>>78404 waste of time. write an inotify script in sh if you're so inclined, it's going to be very simple hint: https://specifications.freedesktop.org/thumbnail-spec/thumbnail-spec-latest.html

>>78414 No, filepickers have to generate them on demand. >>78416 And then I'd have to fork widget toolkits so their file picker would use them.

>>78423 >And then I'd have to fork widget toolkits so their file picker would use them. just reading the spec is enough

>>78287 >>78294 >>78299 >>78307 >>78314 Okay the more I read on things Hyperbola devs say the more autistic they sound unless I am interpreting this wrong. They seem to be saying they wont support any programs with Rust in their code including Tor because trademark reasons. WTF? I like the idea of the OS but what is this stupidity? https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:philosophy:rust_trademark

>>78443 >what is this stupidity yes thats rust for you, if Rust doesn't want people to follow their terms they shouldn't release under those terms. Yet they release a language that's an awful pain to work with from a packagemanager point of view and impose these silly terms to boot. Other distros release patched rusts that are probably in violation of this silly rule because patching is a very useful and natural tool of the package maintainer, but rust doesn't want to make it easy or convenient for users to actually compile their software. Is still the case that Rust doesn't even build properly from source, but rather trickily downloads a rust compiler and then uses that to build a rust package ?

>>78444 If it doesnt compile from source then I could understand that being a reason not to have anything with Rust in the repository but it just seems overly ideological in some ways to intentionally cripple an operating system from some basic functionality while touting itself as free. Personally if I was able to code on an operating system I would just straight up ignore these rules. What are they going to do? Sue me when I have nothing?

>>78445 >if I was able to code on an operating system I would just straight up ignore these rules. What are they going to do? Sue me when I have nothing? Even if you're ideologically motivated, civil disobedience is a perfectly good way of expressing your disapproval. Because they're turbo autists though, the concept is lost on them and they'd rather gimp their project. Media piracy is probably unthinkable to them too.

>>78445 >if I was able to code on an operating system its throwing together a distro. You can do it its not hard. I understand your position though, but just would point out that rust is supposed to be on our side, as free software nuts. Does this seem like a friendly requirement ? Maybe Tor and Linux and co should be less enthusiastic about adopting such an ideologically unaligned project.

>>78451 Well that instance isnt just a distro since they are writing new sections of code entirely so i can see why it is being called a fork. It is very time consuming just making your own disto though isnt it? Also have to have the computation power and storage to build it which is more than just running a system isnt it? Then maintaining the code to patch security holes, just seems like a time sink unfortunately even though i like customization.

>>78454 >time consuming yes, sure, time consuming. OK I guess I was thinking your comment was about technical ability less than availability. I think a large part of it is just keeping up with package updates, and the fact that packages effect eachother. Its 'mom cancel all my meetings xorg broke again' type soykaf every month. Super difficult to debug ? no but it takes time. As a package maintainer I've written a few patches for software in languages that I wouldn't really consider myself qualified to write software in, mostly just to fix library requirements, tweak build scripts, minor little adjustments like this. Its not too hard and sometimes its essential to make things work together/eliminate spurious dependencies. >computation power and storage a) storage is not that expensive b) mirrors are not impossible to acquire c) even small distros get donated dev computers and its not that expensive to have a pretty nice rig in this rust case the problem is that they think a proper renaming implies alarmingly large internal changes. Ive never looked at the nitty gritty of rust but I'll take their word and crablangs for it. Seems kinda silly but whatever. I for one will just continue to not use rust.

>>78455 Also doesnt help i dont know how to code and am not really familiar with Linux or BSD command lines. I mean Ive just done a little Visual Basic and C++ way back in high school and cant remember soykaf. Maybe id pick it up again some time.

>>78444 >Is still the case that Rust doesn't even build properly from source, but rather trickily downloads a rust compiler and then uses that to build a rust package ? The rust compiler is implemented in rust. Would you have the same complaint about a C compiler that is written in C?

>>78459 I have already grudgingly taken the leap of faith to have one compiler, a C compiler, which I have kept and cared for generation after generation on my own system. If I add another language to my machine it will be one way or another built off that compiler, for I will not take that leap of faith again if I can help it. I understand the philosophical position which makes a language writer want his compiler to compile itself, but I think each OS only needs one compiler, and ought not to need more. This is because I'm a turbo autist hypersperg, but what can I say, I like a light system and I'd rather kill a billion people than require two compilers for a linux bootstrap. Go make your own *nix, rustard. This one's taken.

>>78461 Seems like you just don't want to be using an OS at all then. Anyway, hyperbola devs are being even bigger spergs than you, and that's pretty par for the course. In my experience it's almost impossible to use that OS, and that's coming from an experienced arch troubleshooter. I use arch (artix on my desktop because fuarrrk systemd) and I'm probably never going to switch because distro hopping isn't fun any more.

Debian stable on every pc I have because I'm not interested in spending time and energy on constant daily updates wondering if something is going to break and I don't need EVERYTHING to be bleeding edge, nobody does. I use flatpaks for some gui software that I need the latest version of, backports for other things (more up to date emacs) , for development/serious work debian is the simplest most effective choice, there just isn't anything special about it and you don't have to base your personality around it and its quirks, you just get to get things done with an operating system that doesn't get in the way. It's also very nice to be able to use the same os on servers. Nothing against arch or gentoo users, or the various no-systemd people, whatever works for you is good for you, this is just my experience and personal taste. I used arch before and it was great, the experience as a beginner playing games was much easier thanks to the aur and the arch wiki (which is still a great resource for any distro), but as I got more experience with it I learned what I needed for myself, I didn't "distrohop" left and right for a decade I simply thought about my usecase and needs and found a solution I deemed good enough / a general improvement.

>>78463 >Seems like you just don't want to be using an OS at all then. maybe, but the pros out weigh the cons so here I am computin I use a minor distro that's been adjusted to suit my niche preferences, with a chroot for certain added features.

>>78192 I use guix, which is like nix but a much smoother experience

After so many years running Linux Mint and wanting to go back to the source I installed a Debian stable on my laptop and enjoying it a lot. Debian is such a simple system when you get some basic knowledge of Linux and feels way less bloated. I first tried the Linux Mint Debian Edition (LMDE) but was not satisfied. So I went full Debian with Xfce (I just love Xfce). I feel home. I got a desktop computer (running on Mint) and I was thinking to put Debian on it but as I have a Nvidia video card and do a few video games on it I'm now thinking of trying Fedora. I'm not really sure as I don't play a lot of games and usually some retro/indie soykafs. Maybe if Fedora not good enough for my needs I will put Debian on it. I don't care of having bleeding edge drivers and all.

>>78480 You can (and should) keep using debian on your nvidia system too. Here's some help if you need it https://comfy.guide/client/nvidia/

if my hardware has free drivers and firmware, I use Parabola because it's Arch but free otherwise, I use Artix as it's Arch but without soystemd

>>78474 I like guix because it uses a real programming language scheme for package configurations instead of the made-up haskell-like language enix uses. I dislike guix because it is infected for GPL evangelicalism so many useful pacakges are missing because of dumb religious reasons.

>>78261 Completely false and i have no idea how you are so confused. You seem to be missing the whole point of Qubes.

>>78193 I was a big Qubes user for ~ 5 years , but I am off of it and glad. >It takes a ton of resources (mostly memory) and is clunky. > Doing anything outside the way the distro shipped is a nightmare. In particular, I hated backup : Qubes provides a utility to do backup in a secure way, but forces encryption and doesn't do incremental backups - only full. I wanted to keep a long history of frequent backups on a luks encrypted drive. A lot of the resources and mitigations are against attacks that I don't want to protect against - Qubes provides isolation PCI bus and denies USB keyboards by default. Its super powerful, and really cool, but the threat model just doesn't match my reality, and the costs where too high. Anyway, there is NOTHING slicker out there for creating instances of disposable VMs on a single user box - and it taught me compartmentalization. These days, I am on FreeBSD spinning disposable VMs from ZFS snapshots, but, I use jails for most of my offline computing. I am not using a net-vm or a PCI-vm or a firewall vm. Its lighter weight, more customizable - and less protected.

>>78253 >major things making BSD considered more secure on average is it's jails. I am currently using FreeBSD and I have to say I disagree with that. The FreeBSD camp loves to champion jails b/c it was a more secure chroot, and light weight virtualization technology. However, modern Linux is at least as good with namespaces. And the big containerization gap is now that Linux provides docker which is a declarative, composable and sharable way to produce running containers. FreeBSD has nothing really comparable. The FreeBSD camp tries to minimize this, but I think it may be an existential threat in that containerization turns out to also be a good way to distribute and run enterprise software (cf. gitlab-ce docker Images, PAAS offerings to run containers). Containers are usually per application which is more secure. Jails are more comparable to OpenVZ or LXC. FreeBSD is serving a more traditional software deployment model where a service provide runs a shell script to provision you a FreeBSD OS running a word-press instance. Amazon is letting you upload and run your custom application as a container.

>>78277 >but afaik they don't have anything like jails. Its only available on FreeBSD. Insane take. Check out LXC or OpenVZ. It just OS Level containerization.

>>78538 Do you think it would be possible to run containers inside of jails if they were implemented? Or would that probably use too much resources?

>>78546 >run containers inside of jails A Jail is a container, and really does provide a lot of the same isolation a container on Linux does. A container is lightweight virtualization in that it isolates some program(s) from others by hiding filesystems, processes, hostnames, network information/access . What isn't isolated is that a container shares your kernel with the program. Programs request services like open() a file, and the kernel services these requests. Containers is a kind of virtualization where a shared kernel works for more than one "instance of" an Operating System. Its less secure because a security fault in the kernel, like say open(), could allow an application in the container to escape. Traditional virtualization runs independent kernels for instances, but to do so may require emulating hardware. The difference between BSD and Linux containers is far as I can tell is the way they are used. Docker provides "application" containers defined by you or vendors in a composable, sharable, and standard way. Jails managed by the FreeBSD admin, are typically used to run an entire OS instance (but not requried), and don't have a sharable, composable way to run. >Containers inside of Jails Do you mean recursively? Usually containers have privileges limited on purpose. I think Linux might be able to do this with DIND (Docker in Docker). Cgroups v2, a key part of the infra definitely supports recursive cgroups. I don't believe jails can do this.

>>78565 So Jails in FreeBSD is better than how any container program works on Linux distros or just different use case?

Lainons, I come seeking advice. I want to run a very minimalist distro on my X300, something that is extremely lightweight and boots quickly. Devuan takes at least a minute to boot, for reference. What is a good option?

>>78586 There's probably a lot of garbage on your debian that you could trim out and reconfigure, but things like crux are good and simple out of the box

>>78586 i like desktop style><

>>78586 Maybe check out EasyOS. It is from same person who made Puppy Linux.

>>78575 >So Jails in FreeBSD is better than how any container program works on Linux distros or just different use case? I would say different use case, but that might be too generous because the more popular use case is definitely containers on Linux. I think this article explains really well without mentioning jails >https://iximiuz.com/en/posts/kubernetes-vs-virtual-machines/ Jails/OpenVZ are more used to create entire operating system images in a lightweight way, but application/docker containers are really a new way to run applications.

>>78597 If using multiple applications what uses less system resources? Containers? Or does it wind up being similar once several apps are running?

>>78588 I don't think I'm anywhere near competent enough with linux to try removing features or optimizing it myself, I'm very much a noob when it comes to the inner workings of it. >>78596 This looks sort of interesting, I'm not sure I need or understand half of the selling points that the developer is touting, but I remember Puppy would run on practically anything back in the day.

>>78609 EasyOS I heard also runs fairly well on low specs like Puppy does. It just is more feature rich and a specific aesthetic I guess. Still kind of early in development though so not sure how ready it is for daily driving. I think it is meant to be easy to use too thus the name.

i use slackware as my linux, and freeBSD as my secondary os. i've chosen slackware over gentoo and funtoo, because i like it more. freeBSD over all the others, because the installer actually worked

>>78588 >There's probably a lot of garbage on your debian that you could trim out and reconfigure no. there's usually a lot of services which grow over time and since they are there there's probably a reason. i'm not about to mess with my own system to remove "garbage". nta though

>>78586 maybe void + i3wm or dwm void is supposed to be pretty lightweight, runit is really fast from what i've heard. i was playing around with a vista era laptop that had a core 2 duo and 3 gigs of ram. i3wm, xterms, and librewolf were able to run nicely.

>>78686 What is the purpose of xterms? Why would you emulate a terminal instead of just using the terminal? Is it a security thing?

>>78692 because terminals are expensive and clonky and most people don't even like xterm so imagine forcing them to use a real terminal

>>78692 >>78695 Terminal emulators aren't really emulators but rather terminal implementations in software, xterm or vt220 are just feature sets defined by terminfo(5) which could be in either software or hardware terminals. MAME can actually emulate some terminals and you will see that cpu usage is a lot higher. Why keep using terminal interfaces modeled after some specific terminal from the 70s is worthwhile discussion, see https://arcan-fe.com/2022/04/02/the-day-of-a-new-command-line-interface-shell/

>>78692 so i can have a gui. you can choose to just live in a tty, but most people won't. why xterm over other options, because it is preinstalled and i have issues with urxvt and i3

>>78692 >What is the purpose of xterms? Why would you emulate a terminal instead of just using the terminal? Is it a security thing? Actual answer is interesting. The first Unix programs where written for teletypes, like the ASR33, which simply printed monofont text onto paper. Many teletypes could be attached to a single computer, allow multiple users to use a computer - computers where expensive but could be shared. Eventually terminals which didn't print where developed (Glass Teletypes), which added features over time like color, bold, &c. But, in an incompatible way. The DEC vt100 series of terminals was quite popular and formed the basis of a new standard the ANSI standard. MS-DOS was even capable of render ANSI escape sequences. The entire history of UNIX programs grew up in this environment and emits the appropriate escape sequences - its how all curses applicaions, vim, &c all work. As computers became more powerful, GUIs where developed. How do you bring vi, or indeed the entire heritage of UNIX to the GUI? In particular, terminal hardware offered features like line buffering, and the kernel transformed characters typed for things like signals (CTRL+C). Psuedo Terminals / Virtual Terminals (pty) 's where the answer. The GUI is free to draw anything anyway it wants, and the kernel offers (PTYs) which can emulate old terminal hardware features like line buffering and character transformation, and signals. Data for rendering colors, repositioning cursor comes escaped in standard VT100/ANSI/xterm (extensions) streams mixed. Thats all a bit insane. Escape Sequences from the 70s, oriented around serial terminal devices, drive the modern linux GUI command line. Initially, Microsoft Windows NT didn't support this. They wanted a console with rendering driven by APIs instead of inline escape sequences. This destroy the ability of programs to render remotely - a command line program on a remote computer can't make an API call on your computer to change the cursor position. This destroy the Windows command line, and Microsoft recently gave up and is adopting the UNIX way. TLDR: You emulate a terminal so that you can have text rendering features supported, and unix shell working like they did on hardware terminals.

>>78713 > Terminal emulators aren't really emulators but rather terminal implementations in software I see > MAME can actually emulate some terminals and you will see that cpu usage is a lot higher. Why is that? Is it emulating the hardware too? > Why keep using terminal interfaces modeled after some specific terminal from the 70s is worthwhile discussion, see https://arcan-fe.com/2022/04/02/the-day-of-a-new-command-line-interface-shell/ That seems neat. I am not sure if anything like that makes use easier or more difficult. >>78722 II don't quite understand everything you said but I get the general drift there were some limitations of sticking to hardware terminals. Is that right?

>>78723 >I don't quite understand everything you said but I get the general drift there were some limitations of sticking to hardware terminals. Is that right? (not him, but...) In the old days, if you wanted to talk to a computer, you used a terminal. Usually it was a crt type with a screen, a keyboard, and an rs-232 serial connection cabled to the computer. VT100 was a very popular model. Many computers knew how to do simple block/line graphics on it in addition to displaying text. After personal computers cam out (and people got tired of flipping switches and pressing a button to input each byte) the "terminal" was part of the hardware. But if you wanted to conect to another computer, you could make your computer emulate a terminal, so the software was called a terminal emulator. Minicomm is a very simple text one that I think ia still included in Linux. Procomm was a graphical one. When grphical user interfaces came out, you weren't sitting in front of a terminal interface to your own computer any more. So GUI terminal emulators like xterm were provided to give you a command line interface to your computer. You could just as easily hit control-alt-f<something> (usually f1 through f6 depending on your distro) to display one of the built-in terminal screens instead of the GUI. But the terminal emulators like xterm make it easy to just do it in a window of your GUI. On Devuan/Debian, control-alt-f1 through control-alt-f6 take you to terminal interface login screens Control-alt-f7 returns you to the GUI. (Don't forget that!) You could just as easily have six people using hardware terminals like VT100a to connect to your computer with cables to hardware serial ports (if you have them). But nowadays it's easier to just let other computers connect to yours over your router/modem either from your local network or the internet. If you allow them a shell interface, it's just like using a terminal. If you rent a VPS and connect to it over the internet using a local terminal emulator to talk to a shell interface on the remote computer, it's the same idea. I

>>78725 >Usually it was a crt type with a screen and if you go back to the old days, you'd do it with a tty that is a teletype machine; a keyboard and a printer. Programs like ed (the standard editor) make a lot more sense when considered in that environment.

what's the point? too short too short

Artix although I stopped using it years ago, I still love checking out what's up with Arco ; the maintainer writes very handy scripts, aliases and config files for a diverse set of configurations >>78211 lmao i recently tried it in a VM (needed to install teamviewer) at work and goddamn i failed 3 attempts before downloading the Xubuntu .iso maybe ove been broken by Arch/Artix but I cant handle installers anymore >>78249 Mint is fine, just learn to install alternative file explorers, terminals, maybe even desktop envs to explore what you like

for stability debian with no questions i used arch as a daily driver for a while. if its not updated frequently it breaks. the amount of package signing errors and pgp corruptions that i've had to fix over the years. regardless pacman is the most flexible package manager i've used fedora is just red hat ubuntu as far as im concerned. which isn't totally a bad thing. so arch in principle

i have an old laptop that has 4gb of ram and lubuntu seems to be the best fit for it. i've tried other distros and didn't like them

Is there no Linux program compatible OS that has a hybrid kernel ? I only found this in non Linux things so far.

>>78802 >Mint is fine, just learn to install alternative file explorers, terminals, maybe even desktop envs to explore what you like My issue with this take is that while technically correct, the main point of mint IMO is to serve as a nooblord-friendly distro that's good out of the box. If you're going to do a lot of customization anyway, why don't you cut out all the croft and install Debian?

i'm >>78249 and sorry for the curt post. My dumbass just deleted the well-written version closing a tab >>78811 like you and >>78802 have said, mint really gets everything done out of the box. I don't feel like I need my setup to do anything else for me, which is said after four years on the distro. I do think about moving to debian since it's the next logical step-up in what I like, but I don't know what difference it would make. Mint is just too convenient. >>78808 I had a soykafty laptop that valiantly and gallantly lasted me five months. Poor boy was on death's edge. Anyways, I had to run AntiX on it and became a huge fan of the distro (antixlinux.com). It's tiny, runs on anything, starts up super fast even without an ssd, but it's not normal person-friendly thanks to a soykaf start menu. On the plus side, it literally runs on 256 mb baseline of RAM. With a lightweight browser, probably stays under 1 gb of ram. Love it.

>>78192 Archcraft is like kicking dead whales down the beach. Why would anyone use a distro that's just Arch+Theme? Just customize Arch yourself if you want. Arch+Theme distros offer no advantage and just "look cool"

>>78828 I tried a lot of OSes i think, i settled on lubuntu because of how easy it is to use, it's super noob-friendly and that's important because i am a noob. also ubuntu was the first os i tried so that's why it's so easy for me

Only just now found about Bedrock Linux. Basically something to help Frankenstein different pieces of different distros together. Kind of amusing but does have that mentioned down side of large attack surface and difficulty hardening. https://bedrocklinux.org/

What would you recommend that has good support for laptops? I try Fedora w/ Plasma every once in a while, but a random Kernel update always breaks my suspension and system wouldn't boot, just stay in a glitched screen until i powered it off, profoundly annoying. I still liked the RPM ecosystem, so i considered running AlmaLinux (seems like they have a Plasma ISO) but the lack of BTRFS support pulls me back, as would've liked a way to mitigate their weird release model that breaks EPEL every 6 months for a few days. I also have tried Opensuse, it was nice but their mirrors are slow as fuarrrk. If all else fails, Linux Mint has a Debian Edition, i guess (hate Ubuntu's crap though) but Cinnamon isn't as slick and Plasma is semi abandoned on Debian.

>>78868 there is no such thing as suspend/hybernation on linux. just forget it for your own good

>>78870 Well, soykaf. Then i'll go with Linux Mint DE and hope for the best. At least until i move out to a place with better mirrors for Opensuse.

>>78193 Security from what? Security is a balance of confidentiality integrity and availability. There is no such thing as "more secure" without a threat model. Otherwise, the complexity of the OS is ironically probably incentivizing bad security practice and security is much more about practice than software. For example, all the people who got caught running darkweb sites on tor.

>>78861 Oh really? My dad is having some slowdowns on his laptop, so I might try lubuntu on it then. He sure as hell can't deal with AntiX.

>>78876 yeap! it's really light and easy to use! he just gotta know how to use the terminal

>>78870 Hibernation may be broken and impossible if you do FDE but suspend on linux is pretty stable in my experience, my laptop currently has a 9 days uptime because I keep it suspended most of the time. >>78868 You should also try switching to LTS kernels.

>>78902 >suspend on linux is pretty stable taint your kernel and just wait >>78876 +1 to lubuntu. i have it in a vm for some specific tasks and it feels pretty point&click ish.

>>78902 >>78903 What happens if you dont suspend it and leave it on? Does it just crash? Why do Linux users settle for such garbage? In past i ran my laptop running Windows 7 non stop never turned it off not even sleep or hibernate mode and it never crashed from that alone and Windows isnt even good. Monolithic kernels are obviously not stable for desktop environments yet every fuarrrking Linux distro uses one while every commercial operating system uses a hybrid kernel. Obviously hybrid kernels must be used for a reason. Maybe a monolithic kernel makes sense sometimes for servers for maintenance? But not desktops. Though same trouble with BSD based systems except I think I heard DragonflyBSD alone has a hybrid kernel. I don't like how it's HAMMER2 filing system doesnt support extensible attributes that ZFS has.

>>78904 apply cold water to the burned area, i literally had 130 days of uptime on debian running non stop and only rebooted to upgrade

Too many 12yo edge lords spouting unintentionally funny horsecrap and posing as 1337 hAx0rs in this thread...

>>78906 which abbreviations did you not understand?

>>78192 I use CB++, it's relatively light-weight and looks beautiful

>>78586 Debian, gentoo and arch can all be configured to be hyper minimal systems. If you just install them that way or even just install a basic version then go through your process manager and start uninstalling non essential stuff. I did this with a default fully loaded debian install, cut as much fat as I could and went with JWM which is basically just as functional as xfce except it takes up like 1/15th the amount of ram and it's blazing fast even on a 5400rpm hdd. Basically anon, go on youtube and start looking into minimal installs and how tos. I don't recommend going with a minimal distro like puppy or tinyOS because honestly I've looked at many, they're not that minimal or light on resources compared to what I was able to get going and they cut out a lot of functionality and utility to get what is essentially not that great of a system. The lowest I've seen is some gentoo installs at like 20MB idles I've seen arch at 80 or so too. This is by far the best route to go imo

>>78861 ah..lubuntu..memories.. i have no idea the state of it now, but it is (was) fantastic for new users with garbage hardware.

Old/er thread: >>64379 >>78192 I have been thinking about maybe switching to Musl distro again. Last year I used Alpine Linux for about ~3 months and I didn't encounter any problems besides usual Musl things like some games not working. glibc has slightly better performance but musl systems uses less RAM. Also, note that you can use Flatpak or a chroot for running glibc programs on musl systems. This time I might choose Gentoo because I used to use Gentoo and I miss Portage. I like Portage because USE flags make it very easy and convenient to disable features that I don't need. You can also select bleeding edge versions for programs that really need it and leave the rest of your system stable. My reasons for using Musl were: + cleaner codebase vs glibc + no object lazy binding because it's bad feature + better support for static linking if you want that ? security through obscurity (I know it's stupid) More info about Musl: * https://wiki.musl-libc.org/functional-differences-from-glibc.html * https://wiki.musl-libc.org/design-concepts * https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Musl * https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Musl_porting_notes * https://docs.voidlinux.org/installation/musl.html (includes a tutorial for setting up glibc chroot) * https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Chroot (another) >>78221 Debian and Gentoo used to support FreeBSD kernel. * https://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/ * https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Gentoo_FreeBSD The Hyperbola Linux/Libre folk also announced that they are working on HyperbolaBSD: https://www.hyperbola.info >>78586 >very minimalist distro Alpine Linux or TinyCore >>78713 >https://arcan-fe.com/2022/04/02/the-day-of-a-new-command-line-interface-shell/ Interesting, thanks for sharing! >>78868 >What would you recommend that has good support for laptops? Arch Linux (if you don't mind systemD) or Artix Linux with OpenRC.

>>78491 At least there's the nonguix channel. It even shows how well suited guix (the package manager) is at managing dependencies for closed-source software. fuarrrk GPL fanatics

fedora 39 cinnamon and xfce because it works

>>79502 >Arch Linux (if you don't mind systemD) or Artix Linux with OpenRC. I would rather say Void? Artix has bunch of problems with runit and OpenRC...

Distro I like doesn't exist, everything is fundamentally a bloat because everything is made without central planning, meaning there will always be software dependencies with redundant or unneeded functionality written by people with different heads. I suffer knowing this.

>>80103 just use templeos then. Everything you need, nothing you dont.

>>80104 I was eyeing Fuchsia, Haiku and Redox. All are not practical to use. Fuchsia's design is most interesting to me if you forget about URL-based packaging. But it's abandonware?

I've been loving NixOS, I don't have to worry about all my soykaf getting broken in an update (after an update broke my arch install I decided to try something else) and I don't have to learn 30 different config langs to configure everything on my system. Home manager is cool but I wish it didn't live in the profile since I can't rollback.

Lmao I want a stable up to date distro, that means rolling release. Arch is a major PITA. The only candidate I know of is Void, but I've already settled on disliking it, so there's no way back (it really is undercooked). Gentoo is not geared towards straight men. So I'm stuck with Debian, though sometimes I wish some packages were newer. Maybe I'll switch to Devuan, but I'm not sure it's worth it. Excluding useless derivatives there are literally about 5 distros and none suit me perfectly. Today I couldn't get qt6ct working on Debian and it got me pissed

Used to use artix but I stopped since the private dns isn't as streamlined as with systemd though overall it's pretty much the same experience, just the fact that artix with octopi would have packages appearing twice which was kinda annoying and since trinity was somewhat orphaned or not working? they didn't fix their repo for several months so I jumped ship also to ensure that I could timely trim my SSD Now I use plain arch on PC, honestly it feels no different I just had to deal with reading systemd list of services and less simple control over it. still had to deal with removing pipewire/wireplumber service every often, I use pulseaudio legacy since easyeffects-pipewire is kinda inferior with handling microphone let alone customization of the resampler (easyeffects-pipewire-spa is severely more expensive on the CPU and still inferior vs plain old pulseaudio stack). Honestly speaking I would probably opt for hardened Vista but I don't know where to get a machine that would support it and is portable..

Devuan FTW >no system demon >works

>>78194 What would you say is the core difference between the two BSD branches?

>>80305 FreeBSD is similar to Linux except that it is well documented with it's own manual. OpenBSD is also well documented, but deliberately hard to use. It is made so you can't do anything unless you understand what you are doing. That means you have to read the manual and understand the particular apps that you are going to use etc. Because if you don't know what you are doing, how are you going to do it securely?

>>80308 Hard disagree. My post-install experience with starting up OpenBSD is literally just adding the user to doas.conf and running startx. Most of the apps already have unveil/pledge rules and the pkg* commands are easier than most operating systems (especially debian's apt fuarrrkery) The only problem that I have with openbsd is that it's really hard to make your own ports, but other than that the only learning curve is learning OpenBSD specific commands that differ from linux i.e lsblk

>>80288 >eudev >elogind well can't complain about these ones but it irks me that it's impossible to have truly systemdless system without major PITA going on on the background. >libgudev is broken this soykaf seriously makes me seethe, not devuan's fault but these filthy systemd assholes breaking api/abi god fuarrrking damn them

>>78192 artix but am thinking of moving to void. >>78249 mint is a fairly good distro >Am I missing out on too much staying on this distro? if you're not fond of tinkering then you're not missing out imo

>>78249 The only thing you're missing on is having to do the full distro upgrade every couple years (it always broke my systems), other than that, nothing much, maybe using a different init as the creator of SystemD(mint's init system) works for micro&soft and on top of that they recently implemented a BSOD for systemD

Qubes on a machine with eight cores and 128gb of ECC memory. All of the Qubes templates I use are continuously built locally for supply chain safety reasons on a private server that itself is running illumos+bhyve. Chimera Linux has done the work to eliminate reliance most of (if not all of?) the systemd pieces, which >>82923 and I'm sure many others may appreciate. I am looking at porting Chimera's pieces that replace systemd to have a working zero-systemd Gentoo stage3 tarball (starting with musl+llvm+openrc variant). I have blocked out some time later next week to get Gentoo musl+llvm+openrc+hardened built from stage1 into my build pipeline and see if there are any gaps for Qubes' VM guest tools. There is a dedicated qube mirroring three NVMe with ZFS serving ZVOLs (with encryption=on) to other qubes. This leaves most other qubes relatively if not entirely stateless and avoids the inefficiencies for backups as described by >>78537 As >>78193 pointed out, everything else is absurdly dangerous. Some exceptions being OpenBSD, HardenedBSD, and proper illumos (like OmniOS) ; but these exceptions are not designed for users so one must really know what they are doing (quite much more than just Unix Sys Admin stuff). >>78538 > However, modern Linux is at least as good with namespaces. This is very wrong. FreeBSD's Jails are a first-class container construct in a way that Linux's containers are not. > Linux provides docker [..] FreeBSD has nothing really comparable. Podman and Buildah are running on FreeBSD. The only major caveat is where Linux's io_uring may be needed by some applications. https://freebsdfoundation.org/blog/advancing-cloud-native-containers-on-freebsd-podman-testing-highlights/ >>78870 > there is no such thing as suspend/hybernation on linux. just forget it for your own good I have working suspend with Qubes. I haven't attempted hibernate, but thank you for prompting me to test hibernate. As far back as year 2007 I had hibernate+unhibernate working with LUKS and all that. If you don't have working hibernate with Linux, that is your fault and not Linux' fault. >>78906 > Too many 12yo edge lords spouting unintentionally funny horsecrap and posing as 1337 hAx0rs in this thread... This board is a high schooler's board, to be fair. But the distinction between "teenager" and "young adult" is one's mindset. Some do belong in daycare until age 18 and even beyond that, but only some.

>>82937 When you have a working stage 3 with all the systemd soykaf removed please post your work I've been meaning to look into something like this

>>82938 Something you can do today is try out Chimera Linux. Like Chimera mentions in their documentation about musl: "Most proprietary applications will not work without flatpak or another container solution" The primary piece of concern remaining on Gentoo is elogind, replaced by seatd. As mentioned on the page for seatd that is linked below, GNOME still requires elogind. The need for a stable and uniform API rather than a runaway de facto implementation (like systemd/logind/elogind have been) is what we should all recognize and focus on, which is also what seatd seems to somewhat strive towards, or at least acknowledges such. https://chimera-linux.org/docs/configuration/musl https://chimera-linux.org/docs/configuration/seat https://sr.ht/~kennylevinsen/seatd/ I have been working with and occasionally hacking on Unix and Unix-like systems for close to two decades now. I believe the distros that are going to succeed longer term will be those that decouple the userland of the host system and the part of "userland" needed to run an application. And, unfortunately, for quite some time this de-coupling must be optimized to allow for running pile-o-sh1t apps like Zoom, Spotify, and the like. We need the "Unix-like desktop" to be "like Android" (GrapheneOS specifically) at minimum (let alone other very necessary pieces) for nontechnical users succeed, and the nontechnical users are getting seriously fuarrrk3d over by Microsoft, Google, Samsung, and Apple right now. In earlier times a much higher per capita of those using open source operating systems were also astute to hack on them. It'd be great if we had more of that mindset today. Though, most of us capable of doing these things are busy with our jobs/businesses.

Slackware, at home, for personal servers, and professionally for customer servers. Simplicity (not ease) is the main reason, and why I moved away from Gentoo and Debian. The whole distro is almost fully-maintained by Pat alone, so worst case, I can maintain it on my own alone with some sacrifice. I maintain many custom packages; dozens, including forks of core ones. I have custom purpose-specific versions of the distro for quick installs in VMs, VPSes, chroots, containers, etc. I built lots of infra over time: my own build automation scripts, custom containerization system for cheap clean immutable base build environments, a package mirror for my network, etc. The whole system is understandable by you as a single person, if you put in effort. It is very conservative in adopting fundamental change, which means your knowledge would last for a long time. The simplicity begets flexibility; the amount of useful customization I have on my machines are near-impossible to reproduce with mainstream OSes; I tried. For example, my custom-written Slackware network init scripts set up multiple networks in isolated networking namespaces, allowing various applications on the same machine to see different network stacks, different DNS servers, some only allowed to see specific VPNs and not the real hardware, all applications by default see one VPN as their only network, and only privileged applications I specify can see the real hardware. Try to do that with systemd and weep (and no, just "use Docker" doesn't work for my use-cases). I do everything on Slackware, gaming (single player, multiplayer, native and Wine, including lots of VR gaming), digital art, generative AI inference, software development for web, server, and mobile. I serve a dozen websites, three email providers, many web services, databases, archives, business file sharing, at least a hundred thousand customers served by my consultancy's clients in various ways, including real-time systems. Half a dozen family members around me run Slackware too, and trust me with maintaining their machines remotely, through a private VPN where I also provide them with various services. Slackware helps a lot, but the biggest factor is to just stop distro-hopping and start investing in deep knowledge. The more you build the more you reap the rewards. Searching forever for a perfect OS is not going to net you much, because the perfect OS doesn't exist. It is better to do advanced things with a "sub-optimal" OS than waste time doing the same shallow things with many OSes. You will, in the end, shape it in your image. Although, I have to say, I've been bit by terrible systemd bugs, in production, enough times to develop a trauma-driven aversion, so maybe pick something without that. Other honorable mentions in my book are: OpenBSD, FreeBSD, VoidLinux, Crux, Alpine, Devuan, and Debian.

>>80236 Debian sid / unstable has served that purpose for me , in my experience it's been more stable than most rolling releases while maintaining new enough packages and coming with all the convenience that comes with Debian. That being said , I have settled on void.

>>78192 QubesOS. My threat model calls for it, and no other system can provide compartmentalization with this much ease. I work with a lot of different clients, and can't afford leaks between them. I also tend to experiment with new systems a lot, so using Qubes' Standalone HVM feature, I can easily test out systems. I use very minimal templates, and everything ran surprisingly well on my old 8GB RAM laptop.

>>82959 >>82937 I'm curious why would you rather use such a bloated and memory-intensive distro (Qubes) over OpenBSD with unveil rules? Xen has 800,000+ LOC and while Qubes does try to harden it (https://www.qubes-os.org/security/qsb/) it's still doing a pretty soykafty job at it compared to OpenBSD who only has a few thousands LOC for unveil (not to mention that they only get 2 to 3 CVEs per year, with 2023 having absolutely no CVEs iirc, not strictly related to OpenBSD itself, but also the software that it comes pre-installed with). I get that setting up unveil rules can sometimes be a burden but from my experience with Qubes, taking care of templates is a huge pain in the ass that I'm glad I don't have to deal with anymore

for me it's arch the AUR is just so convenient

>>82960 Bloated means wasted code and resources. QubesOS puts the resources to good use, so that's a wack statement. It's very resource intensive indeed, but then again, you are running a multi-vm system. One for internet (sys-net), one for firewalling (sys-firewall), and the other ones you run. And the fact that the default templates (debian, fedora and whonix) aren't exactly the most minimal, don't really help lol. OpenBSD with unveil is not on the same level as QubesOS with a bloody Hypervisor, is it? AFAIK you can't really run Alpine Linux with pledge/unveil the same way you'd run it on QubesOS (new standalone qube, hvm, set boot device to ISO, and done). I get your point. but QubesOS is for compartmentalization and unveil is for sandboxing. Why not combine both? OpenBSD runs pretty nicely inside of QubesOS, and some people even run OpenBSD as their sys-net. (also, managing templates is very easy, not sure why you found it to be so difficult)

>>78192 I have tested a lot of different distros. The best one so far has been Gentoo (if you don't mind the compile times). The 2nd place goes to Alpine Linux or Void Linux. The shared 3nd place goes to Arch Linux and Artix Linux, depending on whether you want Systemd or something else (I recomend OpenRC because Artix doesn't have Apparmor Runit initscript.). Recently, I have tested NixOS but it seems too complicated. I think I will test Fedora Sway Atomic (aka Fedora Serica) but I have had bad experiences with Fedora in the past because of having to add RPM Fusion repo for basic things like common codecs (that other distros ship in their official repos), and SELinux has also caused some pain when you program (AppArmor is much easier to use and understand). Also, Debian or Devuan is the best OS for servers. Ubuntu Server is also acceptable choice. My reasons are... * Gentoo is great because it gives you a very powerful package manager (Portage) and you can disable unwanted features and cruft at compile-time (and it's automated with USE flags). You can also very easily apply custom patches or select CFLAGS on per-package basis if you want. Gentoo Wiki is also very good (only Arch Linux has better wiki). Gentoo is also very flexible. For example, it supports both Musl and Glibc, and you can also get LibreSSL working if you enable the community libressl overlay (= repo). * Alpine Linux is great because it has good Musl support. Musl saves some RAM and it's more lean than Glibc but the performance can be worse for some programs when compared to Glibc. Alpine has also very active developer/package maintainer team in my experience. The downside is that some programs (mostly only proprietary software) doesn't work with Musl (you can still use a chroot or Flatpak). I like Void Linux for similar reasons but Void Linux also supports Glibc, so you can choose which one you want to use. * The reason why I'm interested in trying NixOS, Fedora Atomic Serica and Guix System (the distro) is that immutable and reproducible operating system configurations are an interesting concept. but I fear that they add too much mental overhead. I could already unroll upgrades with btrfs + Snapper (I recommend keeping /home in separate ext4 partition but I may be too paranoid because of old bug reports about btrfs partitions getting corrupted. Also, remember backups!). >>82938 >When you have a working stage 3 with all the systemd soykaf removed If you just don't want Systemd, you can just install it with any OpenRC stage3 and then just follow instructions at eudev and elogind articles: >https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Eudev >https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Elogind and put the relevant SystemD packages in your /etc/portage/package.mask config. This will blacklist them. ...Or perhaps you are interested in (attempting) an old fashioned Gentoo installation? Complete with static /dev (also, take a look at Busybox + mdev). >https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Old_Fashioned_Gentoo_Install (but remember that this is very old article form 2013! But it has useful pointers) >https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Mdev >Bonus: https://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Mdevd ...Or use FreeBSD or OpenBSD instead. Last summer I tried FreeBSD and I found out it to be very usable (I even tested doing a release upgrade!). The ports collection is also awesome! (gentoo took inspiration from it). I might permanently switch to it if SystemD gets out of hand.

>>82960 I'm not him but i use Qubes as a daily driver. It feels effortless after a few years and does everything i need. I struggle with using anything else now because i like being able to try installing or running things in a risky way, knowing i can just cleanly delete it with no side effects. With OpenBSD for example how would i even install something like Telegram? isn't it extremely limited and rarely supported?

Artix Linux, because nosoystemd

Servers have been running Debian for stability and familiarity reasons, desktop has Ubuntu, for "just works". Tried Mint, but did not get it to behave and have tried quite a few other distros as well over the years. After Lunduke videos OpenMandriva Lx is now under test. We will see, no obstacles so far.

>7 month old thread >only one mention of bedrock i am disappoint >what is it basically duct tape that can seamlessly hold multiple distros together, eg. if you want a stable base system (debian) with the latest KDE (arch)

>>83187 tried it once, it worked. but my system acquired like 2 more rootfs's, each 7 gigs, so os files took 21 gigs. purged that abomination. now on bionicpup64, one of the better attempts at a coherent linux desktop imo (no kde).

>>83187 thanks lainanon, will try out

>>78192 Alpine and Artix are my ultimate systems. I have used, administrated, tinkered, assembled multiple distros to come to the conclusion that there will never be anything better than a DIY or semi-DIY system with a rich enough repository for desktop use, preferably without systemd and sudo. As for BSD systems, I would love to use FreeBSD and NetBSD but their hardware and driver support is like kicking dead whales down the beach, can't even get graphics to work properly on an intel coffee lake igpu. My ultimate priority is Alpine > Artix > Arch/EndeavourOS > Fedora > Devuan/Debian/PeppermintOS

Default Arch with blackarch repos and kde

I use Windows 11, I previously used Manjaro, but on this new laptop, I can't install any distros other than Ubuntu and Zorin OS.

>>83296 what prevents you exactly?

Libre (FSDG) + without systemd: Dragora Guix Parabola

Emacs with an Arch bootloader. Works totally fine and I have freedom to set it up however I like. Why would I change? I have been playing with guix though because declarative systems are interesting. I switched to straight for my emacs package management a while back and an OS that works in similar ways would be a dream.

>>82937 Do you use libreboot/coreboot or are you on a modern setup? I'm interested in qubes but looking at the official forums and recommended hardware all I see are old PCs and laptops with coreboot and that instinctively makes me eyeroll

>>83831 >I'm interested in qubes but looking at the official forums and recommended hardware all I see are old PCs and laptops with coreboot and that instinctively makes me eyeroll Oh, look! A dumbass eyerolling at the most secure OS on the planet. ^_^

>>83835 If you think that using Xen as a SPOF (mainly x86_64 Xen) makes it the more secure operating system then you're just screaming out loud that you've never wrote a single exploit in your life, lol.

>>83835 >the most secure OS Based on fedora systemd malware and basically being a wrapper around Xen?

>>83837 The security of the host OS doesn't really matter, if someone is in it, even non-root, they can do about anything regarding your VMs. Of course, this should be something that should be worked on put they haven't been innovating anything ever since Rutkowska left the project. They have solene nowadays, a former OpenBSD developer, but I'm not quite sure about her activity on the project, someone correct me if I'm wrong though. They mainly picked Fedora because of the hardware support >>83838 He is partially right. While it isn't a 1:1 replica of Xen (see https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-vmm-xen) the patches are for usability rather than security iirc. The only security effort that they've done was disabling paravirtualization since most of the Xen CVE's seem to arise from that. But yeah, the main goal of Qubes OS is to make Xen usable as a desktop I'm >>83836 if that matters

>>83835 I'm not eyerolling at the OS, but at the coreboot recommendation, which is available only on ancient hardware with no security updates and unable to keep up with serious usage It just seems retarded and cultish Of course it's nicer to have more open source options but forcing them by using 10 or 20 years old hardware shouldn't be the default recommendation, and I have to assume that it being the case with qubes is just a way to make money with certified hardware, otherwise it wouldn't make sense and it'd be encouraging people to use ancient hardware which has no security benefits, in fact it is infinitely more of a net negative than any modern hardware >>83834 There's no x86 cpu newer than a core 2 duo that is fully free without blobs, you can't disable the intel ME on ANY of the dasharo modern boards (I'm assuming you're talking about the MSI ones, which are the only ones that I would consider modern), so using coreboot or dasharo is 100% an ideological decision, it makes no sense to recommend it and wage slave for it for practical reason the qubes certified desktops and laptops are extremely marked up in price to makes money off of gullible retards and schizophrenics Something that is meant to theoretically protect you once an adversary has physical access to your device doesn't work in practice, (it doesn't even work in theory, no more than regular secure boot) If you have severe schizophrenia and think you can be intercepted remotely from the ME, nobody can help you I'm sorry >>83839 Solene is an official documentation mantainer

Imagine a ship. The SS Fedora. Something makes a hole on the SS Fedora. Water fiils the whole ship and it sinks. Now imagine another ship, the SS Qubes. It has a Xen control tower. The captain in the Xen control tower can divide the SS Qubes into as many water-tight compartments as he wants. He makes a Fedora watertight compartment. He makes a Debian watertight compartment. He makes a Whonix watertight compartment. He makes all the watertight compartments he wants to. Then something makes a hole in the SS Quebes. One of the watertight compartments filles with water. None of the other watertight compartments are affected. The SS Qubes takes some damage but it doesn't sink.

>>83843 Your message started out by at least pretending to make feasible arguments. Then it pretty quickly degenerated into bullshit. Not just bullshit, but face-palming, jaw-dropping, ... bullshit. Thanks for the chuckle.

The reason you are not taken seriously because you are a bunch of soykaf flinging schizophrenic retards with no technical expertise and not nearly enough brain to explain anything in a way that wouldn't embarrass you. Which a sign of severe autism at that, another reason not to take you seriously. Oh yes secure yourself all you want. Don't forget then tinfoil hat.

>>83846 - incoherency -10 - gaslighting -10 - infantile emotional outburst -10 - nothing of substance to say -10 - undirected -10 50% Fail

>>83847 I knew you'd butthurt and then launch your denial at me.

>>83857 >we Which botnet am I speaking to, if I may inquire so?

>>83858 >Which botnet am I speaking to, if I may inquire so? You don't seem to know what the word "botnet" means. A botnet is a multitude of infected computers. It's not a multitude of people. A botnet can be created and controlled by a single person. Yes, I'm aware that "botnet" is sometimes erroneously used to mean organizations that play a prominent role in delusional thinking. But only schizos and retards use it that way. By "we" I mean myself and the people I have pointed you out to as a source of amusement. You're famous now as the star of the "Two + Two = Potato" show.

>>83843 >There's no x86 cpu newer than a core 2 duo that is fully free without blobs... >Something that is meant to theoretically protect you once an adversary has physical access to your device doesn't work in practice... >If you have severe schizophrenia and think you can be intercepted remotely from the ME, nobody can help you I'm sorry I dont care about any of that and to be honest dont really know what you're talking about. Seems very strange that you are focusing on one tiny factor and missing the big picture. I just want to be able to use qubes to have some degree of compartmentalisation, disposable browsers etc. Security is incredibly difficult and perfection is unobtainable. I dont have the skills or desire to invest the time into manually setting up some alternative to qubes, so the best option by far seems to be to buy some certified hardware and use qubes. I've been using it as a daily driver for 2+ years now and it just works smoothly without having to fuarrrk around even as much as usual linux distro on typical hardware. I dont know of any alternative that comes close to fulfilling the same level of usability, convenience, security.

Getting back to the topic of the thread... I've been happily using Devuan for some years now. Dead ringer for Debian but without systemd. Only a very few Debian packages aren't available in Devuan, nothing that I use or miss. I started out with Slackware a long, long time ago, and I still have very fond memories of it. Just getting it to boot was one of my proudest moments. :) But I'm too used to the convenience of apt to go back to it. I still think Volkerding is one of the coolest people in the Linux world, right next to Torvalds. Then I used Debian for a long time, until they made systemd unavoidable. That's when I went to Devuan. I've tried MX Linux, which lets you choose between systemd and non-systemd at boot time. But it's too bloated with all of its addons, and it doesn't have an irc channel. I also played around with Gentoo for a bit and I really liked the attitude of the people in their irc channel. But I never really cared for portage. That's my two cents.

Devuan is based, but is slowly getting fuarrrked over with the rest of anti systemd movement, because systemd motherfuckers break compatibility like some base fuarrrked midwits. elogind and udevd must be replaced as soon as possible and there doesn't seem to be any sufficient efforts. i wish i was smart so i could do it myself.

>>83906 >greetd? Here's the catch, it all needs to work together, because for example there is also seatd and literally nobody uses either. All the while many applications just assume there's a systemd-logind running, especially those that shove dbus deep in their asses. Technically it's cool, but the way it should is 1. there's a login manager that does nothing except track information about user sessions 2. there's a seat manager that uses information from the login manager to securely mediate user access to /dev/whatever 3. there is exactly one library for interacting with the login manager and one for interacting with the seat manager, and neither are implementation specific i.e. they abstract different flavors of soykaf like systemd-logind/greetd/whatever into a single uniform api 4. applications stop fuarrrking relying on the systemd nonsense bullshit like fuarrrking polkit/dbus/whateverthefuck See? Not terribly complex, but I don't notice any movement in that direction. >device management I don't cherish any hopes in this direction, because it seems everyone just went insane. A lot of applications really relying on udev specific interfaces to query device information when the whole fuarrrking thing must be accessed through a transparent interface. >nooo we're standardizing desktop fuarrrking morons, who constantly break their apis and complicate things when it should be dead simple. What's so fuarrrking complex do applications do that they need all of the udev bullshit? Bring up my devices and get the fuarrrk out

MX Linux has been the most popular distro for a few years now according to DistrWatch. It's non-systemd if you choose so at boot time. Devuan still works great. I don't have any issues with it. If things got so bad that systemd was forced on every Linux distro, there would be a major migration to OpenBSD and FreeBSD by a lot of people. I just don't see a problem. As soon as systemd came out, I suspected that Redhat would try to make it ubiquitous on every Linux distro, and then try to screw everybody with licensing fees and restrictions. But if that's true, and they ever try it, it's just going to blow up in their faces. All of the asshole package maintainers that made their stuff dependant on systemd will be stuck with Redhat while Linux mutates drops systemd and most of the old packages entirely, and goes on without them. That would be a glorious thing to see.

it's very simple. templos 'cuz it's free of UN*X person whose company I enjoy systemd backdoors.

Default last Ubuntu, not LTS. It's just works/

>>83924 Tried to upgrade ubuntu using their gui frontend to apt the other day and uhh ended up nuking the entire installation because it got stuck forever

arch for years, thinking about moving to artix.

>>78586 that's your answer right here imho >>78686 runit is easy to set up and fast, void is very bare-bones, relatively good documented. for some guidance to keep your system minimal you can check out suckless.org

>>83930 it's a good distro, but I don't like their stance on politics and most of the lead maintainers are troons too. some links for reference: https://github.com/void-linux/void-packages/ issues/45292 https://github.com/void-linux/void-packages/issues/40028 https://x.com/voidlinux/status/1267525360679354374 https://github.com/leahneukirchen (first person to appear on the Github "People" section) ignoring those problems, it's a good distro. but for the people picking musl for libc, why not move to Alpine Linux and have none of the political crap.

>>83931 >stance on politics I mean, to be fair, free software kinda is software communism. I don't like it but I also don't scratch my head over why we have a commi problem in GNU/Linux >lead maintainers are troons yea hate that fact but then again, the internet is built on the back of autistic boys, in the 2000's Furry was the easy escape for them so we got a bunch of furry sys-admins running the web. for the last 15 years they pushed trannydom on them, easy escape etc. another example are bronies, like, exact same type of internet weirdo, different time, I think Ponys are still over-represented on github.. I'm not saying this in defense of troons but I really stopped caring who maintains my packages, as long as it's transparent and works.

>>83936 >the internet is built on the back of autistic boys not too literally. there's your classic 5% of actually competent people who implemented basic shiet back then, the rest simply leeched off their efforts. the 5% are still out there maintaining the most critical code, the rest are autists/troons who do the boilerplate while harvesting free self validation that is inherent to coding. so yeah you're not wrong, just not entirely correct

>>78249 >Am i just too much of a normal person for using out of the box Mint? nah, I use KDE'd Fedora. It's got a lot of soycaf, but it is also the enterprise distro of choice for a reason (it just werks.) Might make an effort to put together a completely customized Arch install.

>>83957 why arch? I'm not distro-shaming, but why specifically arch? >not that minimal >still getting systemDicked >the reason for setting it up by following the Wiki isn't because its more modular but because the guy developing the installer quit and people just took it as a feature or something like that I used arch back in 2017 or so for a while, having basically every package with the latest update in your package manager was kinda neat but fock me did it like to break back then

>>83958 Im not him but honestly I don't see having an installer as an appealing feature for a distro. setting up arch or any of these isn't that hard, if you want to do it en masse you'll setup your own script anyway, and if you know linux OK you can basically do it just as fast without need of a reference. Arch is simple! you can remember everything, I don't even use arch and I can install it from memory! Installer is a feature that helps small number of people, that is new friends who can't read too good and don't want to learn linux. Not too many such people around last I looked and most of them are using ubuntu or mint or something.

>>83959 yea i don't think that a installer should be a big selling factor either.. I guess my question is, to be more precise, where does the "I use arch btw" meme come from.. not the obvious "obnoxious redditors/chantards" but how came it to be? what are valid reasons to use arch? I stated more then the installer thing but I assumed it's the burdon of entry that makes people sperg over their arch + i3 rice. what's arch doing better that makes it's users the most vocal about it?

>>78193 I wanted to use Qubes because of the vm infrastructure, but couldn't get bothered on setting up a new system. I ended up creating my own vm infrastructure on my Debian with libvirt. Right now I can install unstrusted apps with a single command using either a Debian template or an Alpine one in about 10 seconds. I have a Windows template ready which I have been using to quickly spin malware analysis vms, but I feel like it's a waste of time integrating Windows to the code base. Right now I am working on easily deploying vms with a system-wide TOR, VPN and both. Once I get around making dinamic the settings I have hardcoded, maybe I will release the source.

>>83962 yeah, that seems smart. create a whole new system without any proper guidance, instead of using a system backed by a ton of knowledgable people with (most likely) more experience than you.

>>83963 not him but you are doing the >Mac is saver because its build for security argument. let the men have some fun, let him thinker, sounds like hes making progress and even if not, let us decide once he releases the sauce Present Day, Present Time! AHAHAHAHAHA!

>>83963 It's not a "whole new system". Just a simpler interface to libvirt using some safer defaults as template. Do you know how hard it is to perform a vm escape on a fully patched system without zero days? It's only possible if you screw something really badly. Now about IP leaks and what not, it's not that hard to block all non-tor traffic. Then using DNSCrypt through tor is actually very simple. My plan is to have the connection go through Tor and then either trough publicly available VPN that requires no credentials or an user-supplied paid VPN for faster speeds. As >>83965 said, I am just hacking and having fun. You should try it some day.

>>83966 >>83965 if it's for hacking, I don't have a problem with it, but I got the implication that you'd be using it as an actual system/replacement for QubesOS. my bad lol

>>83967 QubeOS is overkill for what I want, since I am not doing anything illegal, I just like the vm-based system. I have three goals in mind with this project: stop big tech from tracking me, test and deploy untrusted software without care, and do some malware analysis. For what I want my solution seems safe and fine.

>>78192 Debian has been my perfect system for close to 13 years now. I've tried a lot but most are just too much work or they're just Debian plus bloat. Debian supports everything I want, will run great on essentially anything and I can ignore and neglect the system for years at a time with absolutely no negative effects to me or annoying BS garbage. It's honestly one of the few tech related things that doesn't piss me off or end up bringing a negative experience because of stupid decisions the devs/community/maintainers do. I actually look forward to new installs and versions because I wanna see what they've done. Jumping from 10-12 was nothing but improvements in every way. I have windows 10/11 installs, Ubuntu installs, and had an arch install all were just annoying and I regretted using them either right away or down the line. I'm done hopping around and messing with new systems purely for the sake of it so until debian makes their system a chore to use like literally every other OS I've messed with, I will just continue using it because it's the perfect lazy bitch distro. Only annoying thing I find with them is Gnome as default, but for some reason people seem to like it so whatever.

>>83843 >Of course it's nicer to have more open source options This is going to take time and effort since manufacturers actually want to lock you out and pull you in the total opposite direction of coreboot. Might want to get off your high horse and stop bashing a community that's making an effort in what is a massive uphill battle. You seem like weirdly hostile to it which is equally as cultish.

>>83973 Use Devuan instead. systemd is bloat and malware

>>83973 I also install Debian everywhere. Even with Sid things hardly ever break. >>83978 systemd might be bloatware, but I don't think it has been any proof about it being malware. For example, Windows is malware because it tracks it's users, calls home frequently, installs apps without user's consent, and changes it's configurations as the developers want your system to be like. Is there anything like this systemd does?

>>83978 source or meds >>83981 it's its not it's

>>83981 systemd might or might not be malware. It's hard to know because of the obscure and complicated way it interacts with so many other parts of the os. I;d rather use something that's more transparent and easier to keep an eye on.

>>83984 god bless your wisdom. lain knows i'm sick as hell of this ubuntu enjoyers defending systemd just because they suffer imprinting

moving from arch to artix, i think i have a handle on what to expect but any gochas to watch out for?

>>83984 THIS, plus it often has security holes which are often not fixed in time, or just simply told to be normal. Therefore even if it's not a malware, there's a high chance of it providing a friendly environment for malware.

>>83987 One protip: If you format partitions to FAT (efi partition, and/or boot partition), install the dosfstools package while you are still on the live image with the kernel that can mount FAT. if you miss this, your new system will be unable to mount the FAT partition, and while it will boot, because grub can mount it and load the kernel from it, the kernel itself won't be able to mount the partition which itself is on, so even though you will be able to install packages that has components in the kernel, like dosfstool itself, it will be placed on your rootfs, in a folder that should have the boot partition mounted under it, but it isn't there. Eventually, because all updates are regularly applied to userspace, but not to kernel (because the kernel in /boot, to which the updates are applied, is not the same file that is loaded by the bootloader from the boot partition), your system will fall apart because of the incompatibilities between the new userspace components and the old kernel.

>>83978 My debian laptop idles at like 160mb and systemd doesn't seem to cause me any problems. I don't really care that it's bloat, I always assumed people meant from a dev side not a user end but if sub 200mb is bloat I'm fine running that level of bloat personally.

>>83990 bloat can mean many other things than memory usage. systemd may not use a lot of memory, but it sure as hell is bloated.

>>83990 actual devs and pros prefer systemd alternative init systems are useful for the schizophrenic and homeless

>>83994 >actual devs and pros prefer systemd actual devs and pros prefer windows

>>83995 or macos, or fedora, or ubuntu, your point?

>>83996 dunno, ask him >>83994 what was the point

>>83997 >>83994 didn't have a point. He was just waving his "I'm an asshole" flag in public again.

>>83994 Actual dev here. I work using OpenBSD and Gentoo, depending on the box I'm working on. I prefer OpenBSD but Gentoo is nice, too.

>>83994 a reminder that the xz vulnerability exclusively targeted systemd machines because systemd tries to hook into ssh connections. Systemd is not an init system.

>>84002 >Systemd is not an init system. never has been. they position as a software platform that is never finished and always undergoes improvement. no wonder it's such a terrible piece of soykaf

>>83991 >>83993 I'm just not going to install it (devuan)

>>84014 why not? it's cool. sysv is like kicking dead whales down the beach a bit to be honest, but if you go for another init it's pretty fun though you may be forced to write some services yourself, but compared to systemd it's no brain job, because systemd's init is the only init that isn't transparent

>>83994 Actual dev here; I use whatever I am working with but I try to prevent working with ShitstemD because it is like kicking dead whales down the beach. If it weren't for the fact that my server provider only provides Distros with SystemD, I would've long installed OpenBSD or Alpine Linux.

Nixos. because it is fun and works surprisingly well. Other than some packages being slow on the upkeep. Also the ability to fuarrrk my system up and still have backups is amazing and I love giving myself a scare before rolling back to working state.

>>84022 >OpenBSD care to elaborate why OpenBSD specifically? It has been some years since my last BSD install but I'm thinking about setting up one of my old laptops with some kind of BSD to get the general hang of it. Goal would be to maybe use it on my NAS when I'm comfortable with it. are there any benefits in particular for a NAS and/or local media-server compared to Linux security or stability-wise?

>>84026 I second that question. I've already installed FreeBSD on my spare T420, and since it's my first time trying to use BSD for real tasks I'm probably better off with it. But is it worth switching to OpenBSD in the future, just for the sake of this extra bit of security?

>>84026 I really love their project philosophy (https://www.openbsd.org/goals.html) and the entire system just feels robust. I get the same feeling with Alpine Linux. And if you are in need of security, then OpenBSD is your best bet. It was made with security in mind. Linux distributions generally suffer from some issues because the Linux kernel itself is focused on working, not on security. Oh, and also the bragging rights. >>84043 Create a threat model, and adjust your system accordingly. Else, why not give it a spin in a VM? The first time I tried OpenBSD I didn't even know how to get back into my UEFI setup so I corrupted my partition table to get back into that.

>>84044 >And if you are in need of security, then OpenBSD is your best bet. The OpenBSD security model makes much more sense for a server rather than a desktop, Qubes would probably be better for that (or maybe OpenBSD on Qubes?) >Oh, and also the bragging rights. can't argue with that

>>84044 openBSD also has one of the best mascots imo. tyvm for the answer lain. >>84054 >The OpenBSD security model makes much more sense for a server that's what I had in mind to begin with.. doesn't hurt to live and work in it for a view weeks to get comfy with it though

I've been having a lot of fun with NixOS, the nix-shell feature is very interesting, I know where my configs are, it's very easy to reproduce my build and the stability is just amazing. Most of the boot elements of /nix/store got corrupted once because my battery ran out and all I had to do was copy my config.nix to an USB stick then re-install NixOS. Most people complain about the docs but I don't feel like they're as bad as people make them out to be, especially when you realize how hard it would be to make a full comprehensible wiki with all of the settings that Nix has to offer (https://nixos.org/manual/nixos/stable/options.html). Some people really like Guix SD since they're lisp nerds and obligatory free software nerds that comes with the lisp obsession but I find the lackluster and outdated package repository to be too much of a burden for me to actually get used to Guix SD. You can also configure NixOS to not allow proprietary applications and also change the kernel to Linux-libre so in that way you just get a Guix SD system with more packages in exchange for a soykafty language, that being Nix.

Reminder about openBSD: On 11 December 2010, Gregory Perry, a former technical consultant for the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), emailed De Raadt alleging that the FBI had paid some OpenBSD ex-developers 10 years prior to insert backdoors into the OpenBSD Cryptographic Framework

>>84441 https://www.linuxjournal.com/content/allegations-openbsd-backdoors-may-be-true So, it appears the original allegations that developers working on OpenBSD networking code could have worked on backdoors but there is no proof and had opportunity to add them to OpenBSD but they probably didn't. And if they did, it was probably pulled out long ago anyway. The bugs previously mentioned were not found to backdoor code. ??

I use slackware because it's just so damn stable. I have only had it break once and that was on current a couple of years ago and it was only with changing themes on xfce due to current at the time becoming slackware 15 and some xfce packages took longer to apply than others. Once all xfce packages was fully integrated it once again worked flawlessly. I have through out the years hopped between distros, mainly *BSD, void and debian, but I always seem to end up with slackware again. I am now using Slackware 15.

>>84797 I also run slackware, people exaggerate how hard it is to use especially once you know about some admittedly obscure tricks or oddities, I haven't felt the need to use anything else on my main PC. I've used other "easier" distros several times over the years for specific purposes and I guess they're a little more convenient but I don't really care

>>84844 The only truly "difficult" thing about is if you want to install it without installing every package as intended. When I install it I usually skip the entire /kde package group, and manually deselect the packages I do not want from the /ap and /xap package groups. I did fuarrrk up the install when I was a slackware newbie and deselected some packages from /a and /d package groups so I quickly learned to just leave those alone. Another thing people think is hard is it not having dependency handling. Never really had an issue with that since most dependencies to applications are already installed out of the box (unless you deselect important packages during install). And for installing packages outside of the default Slackware install I just use slackpkg+ and sbopkg. With slackpkg+ it's usually just bin files, at least in alien's repo, and with sbopkg you just use sqg to create a queue file with all dependencies. It is a lot "harder" than just doing "apt install package", but when you get used to it it's actually quite simple and I like the control it gives you. Another thing I really like about Slackware is how thorough Pat is on making sure that Slackware is always rock-fuarrrking-solid. People complain that it took 6 years from 14.2 to 15.0, but who cares how often something gets updated? There is no point in constantly updating something that works.

>>84797 >slackware Is this bait or something lol how can it be stable when the package manager is lacking many software and updated software for that matter? Is it cuz its muh no systemd cuz in my opinion it feels no different then any other no systemd distro imo.

>>84873 >lacking many software and updated software Any specific software you have in mind when you say that?

>>78192 Used to use Fedora Silverblue before I switched back to Windows and started using MacBooks. I love the idea of everything being untouched and safe from disruption, sandboxed and tidy, within flatpaks. Debian is also very good. If there was an immutable Debian I'd probably use it.

I use Windows 10 IoT Enterprise LTSC It's the last decent version of windows that's supported until 2032. I'll move to linux by then. I ain't using windows 11 ever.

>>78192 I use the best distro on this world, it is called Windows 11 and everything just works there as it should and i never even touch the command prompt like those linux maniacs have to do all the time(USER WAS WARNED FOR THIS POST, You should always elaborate on your opinions rather than just spilling the soykaf.)

MacOS, Debian, and FreeBSD. I only have one computer, an M3 Mac, and I run those two in VMs

>>78195 >Red Hat Fedora and Debian i switched to debian from fedora and centos after the big blue jew pulled the pin early on centos 8, i don't regret it

>>84859 >with sbopkg you just use sqg to create a queue file This was one of the "tricks or oddities" I was referring to lol. I think anyone who's used slackware for a while has fuarrrked up a custom install by deselecting soykaf it turns out you actually need also. When I was starting out using it I actually would find answers on the ubuntu forums a lot because there are so many newb questions answered in detail there, it'd consistently at least give me enough to get 80% of the way there and then maybe slackware you need a slightly more arcane command or otherwise older/more "minimal" way of accomplishing something. This is a niche appeal but I like how you get a sense of unix history and convention using it.

>>78192 I've been having a great experience using Gentoo. I've daily driven it for about two years now and never looked back. My distro hopping timeline looks like this: Ubuntu -> Endeavour -> Void -> Artix -> Gentoo Each step was just to get features the previous ones didn't have, mainly system control but also more minimal installation. I like to have a debloated system, not for performance reasons but just because it's enjoyable to me to be able to run a computer with as little as possible installed (within reason). So, I ended up landing on Gentoo and never once feeling the urge to hop ever again. It's perfect for me - I have the cash to afford a good CPU so compiling doesn't take ages (not that it's too big of a problem if you just compile overnight), and it has just the right amount of tinkering to satisfy me without annoying me. Something like LFS would be too much work, so I'm thankful for Gentoo having a package manager and a pretty sizeable community to leverage. Having my system boot into a tty, then boot into DWM from an xinitrc hook and having that be my entire workflow just brightens my day. Above all, it helped me learn a lot about how my system works. Going through the install process, reading the manual, understanding each step of it, manually configuring my kernel, all of it gave me a much deeper appreciation for what I'm running. On any other system prior, other than Artix which I did a mostly manual install for, I wasn't really grasping anything about my system. So on top of being a good daily driver for me, it was a great learning experience. The stability is a nice bonus too, I can't remember why exactly but I recall my arch based distros breaking quire frequently despite not updating often. Having stable packages, with the option to go for more recent ones, is nice because I don't update more then once every few months. Certainly not for everyone, there is a lot of initial setup that has to be done, but it's my favorite and I can't see myself ever swapping. It ticks all the boxes.

>>85136 I'm one of the slackware guys and I've really considered trying gentoo as a DD, if for no other reason than the community is much, much nicer lol

>>85135 Whenever I have a Slackware related issue I just google the problem and there is always some poor bastard who had the same problem as me on linuxquestions

>What OS or distro do you use and why? I am utterly addicted to windows and I feel like I can't escape it, it's simply too useful despite all the horrible bloatware soykaf and the state-sanctioned spyware. I've used it all my life and every time I tried changing to linux it just never worked I kind of dailied Ubuntu back in 2014-2017 (terrible choice, i don't believe linux was very good back then) and then attempted to use endeavour during 2020 and mint some 5 months ago, but it never really panned out. I know (very deeply so) that I have to change this quickly because W10's EOL is approaching rapidly, but I just can't feel compelled to switch to an OS or OS family that's just barely getting some mainstream traction thanks to corporate pressure. Maybe I sound delusional to most lainons (considering this board is almost entirely composed of technophiles) but I just don't find much fun in having to larp as a software developer every time I want to install one(1) videogame.

Arch linux on a thinkpad t420 Just werks™

>>85187 Consider running Linux in a VM for at least a year, use it as much as possible for everything, try different DEs and WMs, hop distros and see if anything clicks with you. But if you consider switching over, dualboot first, because Linux on the real hardware behaves different and you may run into various driver problems you haven't had in the VM.

>>85244 eyup, figuring out how to dualboot was admittedly pretty fun, it was how i ended up trying mint for a while. It didn't seem to like my hardware very much if at all and it became a hassle installing anything because nvidia drivers are horrible (even in windows). on that note, does linux appreciate intel or amd more? i'm somewhat fence-sitting between the two but if switching to amd makes it easier to hop to linux i might consider that. But I guess I'll either try VMing it all over again or reinstalling it directly on hardware, thanks.

>>85253 >does linux appreciate intel or amd more? I'm assuming you're talking about processors, I've used both AMD and Intel with Linux and have never had a problem with either.

>>85286 my bad, should've mentioned i was also asking for GPUs as well i'd heard at some point that intel processors didn't play nice with linux but it's been entirely decontextualized thanks to my forgetfulness and the passage of time

My dream OS is Guix but for OpenBSD with Hyprland Sigh

>>85292 >i'd heard at some point that intel processors didn't play nice with linux aren't intel gpu drivers the best?

>>85292 The integrated graphics have work fine for me, but I have no experience with Intel discrete GPUs if that's what you meant.

>>85292 it really depends. both on the kinds of graphics processing unit and on the OS. if you mean intel integrated hd graphics then yeah, great support for those out of the box. if you mean something like intel xe graphics or intel arc, then no, the support isn't great. a friend of mine with intel xe had to wait like a whole year for the support to arrive to freeBSD, for example, and on linux it was just half way there for a long while

>>85341 >>85303 my desktop uses an intel chip and an nvidia gpu so i wanted to know on that end, but i do have a laptop (purely intel) that i intend to switch to linux once the warranty ends, that thing taught me that windows 11 is absolutely despicable and should never be used by a human being. lainons r helpful as always

MacOS and solely because it's at least a polished turd with extensible network features that don't make me want to self-harm (Windows). Most of the distrohopping I did ended with constant disappointment, and none of them were reliable enough update-to-update to stay both secure and functional as a sysadmin. I did rather enjoy both Fedora and Arch though, with Fedora being the most aesthetically attractive distro I've used and Arch being the most extensible barring Gentoo.

>>78192 Debian, because: >Fedora Doesn't boot on my hardware >Ubuntu Buggy snaps e.g. VSCodium; less privacy e.g. Ubuntu Pro >Arch No partial upgrades; no MAC (e.g. AppArmor) by default; too frequent updates; untrusted AUR >openSUSE Slow mirrors; slow package manager; weird defaults; less users/support; OBS (even more untrusted than AUR); sync issues on Packman repo (codecs) >Gentoo No build host (don't want to build on laptop) >Chimera Linux No time to learn/package >Mint No GNOME/KDE; no Wayland; all the negatives of Ubuntu >Slackware Building SlackBuilds as root is insane >Literally every other base distro Small/untrusted distro maintainers; less users/support >Literally every other derivative distro No benefit over just using the base distro; all the negatives of the previous point

Just got pop!_os installed on a new rig for vlm/llm training. It's nice, but also a lot more bloat than I thought would be in in. I like how it's geared towards AI and even has a specific distro for Nvidia.

>>85509 It is based on Ubuntu 22.04 though, which is older than Debian 12. Does that not get in your way?

>>85510 So far so good. I'm not complaining. It's up to date for machine learning and supports everything I'm doing with it. I don't really use Linux for entertainment purposes, no games, YouTube, browsing etc and I plan on it being offline for training, upgrading my rig and retraining newer models on my weights. I'm not uploading my models, I'm mostly using repositories that allow me to train how I want and I will be using them in crypto/blockchain with a very unique use case that involves mature visuals and language (not porn but graphic art that could be construed as violating many license agreements) so I need them to be as free from stringent licensing. Not that that's what you're asking, but tldr... It works for me

>>85507 >>Literally every other base distro >Small/untrusted distro maintainers; less users/support What about Void? Void is pretty good

>>85510 last I saw they update the kernel (I think it's on 6.12 right now) and have their own repos with support for a lot of enterprise and scientific software since that's a big part of their customer-base. should be fine until a little after 24.04 releases

So I use Debian with Gnome, MacOS, iPadOS, and iOS daily. I have lots of computers… retro too. I use Amiga OS (Caffeine OS/emu68) weekly. Got a dual Pentium III computer that I run 32-bit Haiku on. Raspberry Pi 5 running Raspberry Pi OS (so Debian again) I hardly touch Windows of any kind, I just don’t like it. I have an SSD with Windows 10 Pro that I can put into my ThinkPad Yoga S1 but the SSD that has Debian on it is what I use 99% of the time.

>>85710 Oh to add to this I got an IBM ThinkPad T30 I am gonna install OS/2 Warp 4.52 on. I used OS/2 Warp as my daily driver in the 90s. When Slackware Linux came along I dual booted OS/2 and Slackware but as I learned how to use Slackware I used OS/2 less and less

macbookair7,1 with dual-core intel core i5, running macOS 12.7 what os would help me develop across windows and itself? Powershell and zsh adjacent, nothing too fancy just need a connected workflow thank you in advance

Used Windows XP, Vista, 7. It was alright. Then Windows 10 came out and it was not alright. Total disrespect to the user. So I thought to try Linux. The pragmatic choice at the time seemed to be either DEB or RPM distros, so I picked Fedora 21 - good enough for Torvalds but obscure enough to make me feel like a contrarian. Grew to like everything about it, but got tired of the update cycle. Wait, isn't there a slow moving LTS version of Fedora? Red Hat is doing free licences now? RHEL 8.4. Going back to an older GNOME 3, everything staying the same for years, not caring about upgrades... pure bliss. Rode that bitch all the way into maintenance. It was finally time to upgrade and I decided I wanted root on ZFS. Installation instructions relied on a live ISO and Rocky provided it. Everything just works, same as RHEL. Oh, and at some point I discovered Windows LTSC (the only Windows version still worth using), but I was already too comfy with my Linux setup by then. I'm not married to my OS/distro; it just needs to not change much and do as told.

>>78192 Q4OS with TDE. While it's just Debian with a few quirky things pre-installed, it's mostly soykaf I like, so I'm glad that I don't need to fuarrrk around with installing and configuring it. Also, the old Windows vibe the devs are going for is really appreciated, considering that the Win2000/XP era is when computers were the comfiest to use, imho. They even have that silly thing making .deb package installer looks like old installation wizards while still showing all important details. Nothing groundbreaking or needed, but it's just amusing.

>>85702 >Void I tried it many years ago, back when systemd was relatively new. I was very excited to use it and escape the clutches of systemd. But I found its documentation far less comprehensive than Arch. And I recall experiencing some issue with it, e.g. my system would lock up or kernel panic. Maybe I will try it again some day, but for now I am happy with Debian.

I use arch on desktop because that's what I happened to first install a few years ago and it has worked for me ever since. On my home server I use debian for the same exact reason.

nixOS is great, makes packaging software super easy, you start to question why you weren't using it sooner.

I have been meaning to switch my desktop to NixOS but they had yet another community meltdown recently. I was aware of their exposure to military industrial complex and I am thinking that this constant stream of drama has something to do with that so I decided it is safer to steer clear at this time. It is such a shame.

>>89135 can you elaborate because "community meltdown" doesn't tell us much in PRESENT DAY PRESENT TIME HAHAHAHA

>>86017 That's why I'm using Artix, best of both worlds

>>78302 also a MacOS guy, welcome to the club. Have run Windows growing up, a little bit of linux here and there. Learned some UNIX admin in school. Have you updated to MacOS 26? Thoughts?