Alternatives to the web

The World Wide Web is fuarrked. It’s evolved in a complicated mess where there are only 2 corporate privacy violating web browsers that work with most sites. Two alternatives that come to mind: ipfs - interplanetary file system. A distributed file storage system. Files retrieved by hashes. Gemini protocol - seems like a stripped down version of http, with no JavaScript, css, or privacy violating crap. One thing that would be great would be to use some of these systems for online discussions . Gemini seems unfortunately too limited. I get the impression it’s a read only system. As far as I can tell it couldn’t be used to make an image board. With ipfs, it is possible, and I even wrote some code a couple of years back for an image storage system with image galleries, that could be made locally, and then shared. I didn’t finish the project because I didn’t have a clear idea of what my goal was. But I think I still have the code in an old hard drive. It would have worked from a “web browser” however. I wish to discuss more for web browser alternatives from any perspective. To maybe recreate the web in a way that it can’t be hijacked by the corps.

Just use the Lynx browser I think it is. Makes the text all green and cyberpunk like.

Come join Hyphanet, lainon. We have mandatory restrictions like "no JavaScript" and "no external resources from clearnet sites" enforced network-wide. If you try inserting a site with tracking, the JS just gets stripped out and the tracking pixels fail to load. https://www.hyphanet.org You don't even have to have your node on 24/7 to share files and insert sites. I haven't figured out the forum function yet, but it's existed for several decades.

What about telnet? What’s going with Xanadu?

I've thought about this a lot. I recently typed up an idea. Here tis. It will work on every operating system, and the language used will be much better than Javascript or PHP. Also, this language will not just be interpretive, but also compilable, so that you can turn any 'site' into a desktop app. And you'll be able to compile to any distro or operating system, making Serenity just as good as Windows 11.

Unfortunately WWW has reach, no other tech network gets even close. You might not care about it, but then have fun in a bubble. Just stick to HTTP/1.1, and basic HTML with a biy of CSS when needed. Restrict yourself to simpler browser, and use modern soykaf browsers only when work and banks require so, because you still need to live in real world. Unless, ofc, you self-sufficiently live in a cabininawoods and published that post over AX.25 or something.

>The original Freenet. Looking for Locutus? >It is now named Freenet; the development teams are unchanged. wait which one is freenet?

>>73580 isn't freenet just hyphanet like lainon here said? >>73575 their blogpost said they renamed from freenet to hyphanet.

>>73575 >download it >try it out for 10 minutes thinking I will find some cool hacker websites >filled with cp every time

>>73575 Cp. Just it has way to much, and the fact it caches websites means you could download something illegal without your knowledge.

>>73570 >Gemini seems unfortunately too limited. I get the impression it’s a read only system. As far as I can tell it couldn’t be used to make an image board. There are some textboards that use just gemini and there's a bbs that works with just gemini but also allows for image uploads if your client supports the titan protocol.

>>73586 Lainon, are you admitting you sought out CSAM on purpose? That's disgusting.

>>73590 >CSAM is that what they are calling it now? sounds like a super high tech naval missile or something. anyway not that lainon but when i was a dumb ass teenager i would download the cp and gore and surprise high schools with it to gross them out or spam it on websites i didnt like

>>73586 ive used freenet multiple times over the decades and have never seen cp on it but makes sense that some chantards would be super hyper paranoid about it >>73588 its not illegal to use freenet you fuarrrking idiot you miss the entire point of one of the main techniques it uses which is encrypting everything you share which means you're literally not liable but im sure youre also a huge cucc and want to take the legal system to a new never seen before low where random people are liable for soykaf that not even ISPs have been previously liable for.

>encrypting everything you share more specifically: your node reshares random chunks of data, thus obsoleting the clearnet web, and these are encrypted and you cant know what they are without doing extensive research and so happening to find the key in public

fuarrrk let me start from scratch: freenet files are all encrypted the link to a file contains the decryption key chunks of those encrypted files are automatically distributed across the network, including, potentially, your node naturally, nobody knows what chunk is of what file unless its specifically a file they have seen the link for arguing that its illegal to have some chunk of CP end up on your system is the dumbest fuccing thing on earth and you may as well literally suck microsoft's cock and put googles cock in your anus at that point and that will be your life from then on. and ironically, FAAAXANG also has cp on their servers, which is a natural consequence of people actually using their system, and has NO WAY of knowing where it is, and they are of course not liable for it

>>73594 >>73575 What’s the difference between ipfs and hyphanet (formerly greener)? It seems to me, from the users standpoint it’s very similar. You have a hash or key to retrieve a file.

>>73599 IPFS is written by a dildo fukken moron literal neckbeard script kiddie whereas freenet is just written by an average programmer (so it's still soykaf) IPFS is associated with cloudflare and other jewniggercock players freenet is not IPFS will go full censorship mandatory ID for everyone the moment there is even slight pressure freenet will not at the end of the day it doesnt matter since freenet has no replacement for (((HTML))) and so its basically garbage like IPFS.

>>73570 >>73592 Back when I used it a few years ago, you it was illegal.

>>73599 the short answer is that ipfs does not try to grant users anonymity.

No replies to my post : | >>73578

>>73570 >To maybe recreate the web in a way that it can’t be hijacked by the corps. Why not just use Gopher or Gemini? You can use Lynx/Sacc/Gopherus to browse Gopherspace. Use Amfora (or something else) for Gemini. I have no experience with hosting a Gopher server myself. You can start by visiting: - https://charlieharrington.com/surfing-the-gopherspace/ - https://gopher.zone * gopher://gopher.floodgap.com * gopher://gopher.quux.org >>73578 >>73613 In general, web's goal shouldn't be to make money. It's a huge part of the reason why modern Web is like kicking dead whales down the beach. Giant corpos have taken over. Another problem with your project idea is that it's too ambitious, and why not use something that's available today (like Gemini)? Some parts of the project idea also make it sound like centralized cloud crap ("no sites, just pages", "we will filter it", "our rules, no need to make your own", etc.). I strongly dislike the idea because it gives 1 (or only a few) organization too much power over everyone else. Also, I don't think you can have "one size fits all" type rules for all "websites" or forums. Web or an alternative to Web should be decentralized as much as possible, so it can't taken down easily with DDoS and it can't be censored (each site/server should have their own rules). Also, why make your own file formats for video or audio? The user should be able to upload whatever files (that are allowed by the server) and the browser/client could either add support for the file format or call an external application to open the file (or save the file). >show offline copy if user doesn't have Internet connection There is actually a program called "offpunk" that does this: >https://sr.ht/~lioploum/offpunk/ ( Disclaimer: I have never used it )

>NOOOO it should be illegal for me and other people to exchange files over the internet because the feds wouldn't be able to make sure we're not sending CP or photos of people wearing Nike shirts without Nike's consent! This has to be the most gigacucced thing anyone has ever come up with. Using Freenet is not illegal, even if your node has CP on it (due to safe harbor, your node is functioning the same as an ISP, and is therefore not liable for what files happen to be mirrored by it at any given time). However it could become illegal overnight since every idiot these days reasons like above.

>>73578 >no tabs >no back/forward button >no sites, only pages meme-tier decisions >opening a page you had before does not cause any reloading of the page 1. not the reason people like tabs; 2. this can 100% be the reason why your website won't display the changes you just made to it. try living with just one tab, and you'll know what i'm talking about. you do *not* want to force single tabs. >We prevent any porn or illegal content from being uploaded to the booru 1. why?; 2. define "illegal content" >using AI to filter soykaf if you have to filter anything, you've already lost. >it will be on [the pink flag "developers"] to delete [porn], not on you the hoster of the page this doesn't make any goddamn sense. why are *you* held accountable for something that someone *else* did? you're going to dig your own grave with this decision.

Any "alternative" that wouldn't be able to support an imageboard, emphasis on image, is not an alternative. Schizos like to circle jerk around gemini and freenet, but they'll still come here communicate with other people. Whether you like it or not, the web's scope has expanded beyond sharing files, into applications, including imageboards. Blaming corporate takeover on functionality, and proposing removing functionality as a solution, is caveman logic, and it'll never catch on beyond schizos who only play around with it to feel cool.

>>73617 >Another problem with your project idea is that it's too ambitious Yes, its one of those things I'd only be able to do once rich >it gives 1 (or only a few) organization too much power over everyone else Fair point, but it would be just to filter out 'p. Domain providers on the web can shut down sites they don't like. I've taken your advice into consideration, though, and I will edit the text file specifying that it will be decentralized. >>73620 >try living with just one tab, and you'll know what i'm talking about. you do *not* want to force single tabs. The whole point of tabs is so that you can bounce from one page to another without having to wait for reload, and having the site get reset. Pink Flag will not reset a site, it will remember it, and you won't have to wait for reload. Hence no need for multiple tabs. >why are *you* held accountable for something that someone *else* did? If I upload 'p on an imageboard, the imageboard host is held accountable for it. If I upload 'p on a booru, and post the link on lainchan, the booru host is held accountable for it. Why? Well that's a question to ask the US gov, not me.

there are no alternatives to the web because hackers are all sellouts the moment they realize they need money and get hired and realize they can make $300K / year all of a sudden there are well known and agreed truths in the hacker community, such as "Firewalls, DRM, etc are placebo" (inb4 some autist says "thats not the narrative", i dont care, your community is soykaf), and then these hackers will go create a company that revolves around selling firewalls, not only that, but they will wage slave it into every fuarrrking place on the planet, and now thats why you cannot use a shared IP to access web pages without a big 4 web malware-tier browser. tl;dr you will become the next cloudflare if you are a hacker and decide to make your job around your skills, you will never contribute one fukking thing to society. the only viable income using hacking skills is to sell snakeoil barbwire fences to governments and monopolies

Are EBBS and Gopher protocol still things?

I don't like gemini/gopher because it doesn't have css or similar. Meaning i can't do maths.

>>73681 There are still a lot of gopherholes that are maintained and updated. I don't know what EBBS is and duckduckgo gives no relevant results. What is it? Telnet/SSH based BBSes are still around if you're thinking of those.

This comes up pretty often but I'm you've ever fuarrrked around with the alternatives, you'll know that the biggest obstacle isn't the technical challenge but convincing ppl to adopt the technology to the point that there's actually enough content for it to stay competitive with the www. Yes, the web is fuarrrked but it's also the future. Think about it like this: the corporations and the governments both have a vested interest in violating privacy and using all that crap. Maybe platforms as mobile apps is changing things somewhat but not really. Best we can hope is to build something that kinda works on top of the heap of soykaf we have. This is not to say you can't have fun exploring SSH boards and whatnot. Just saying they have no future as a serious competitor to www.

>73579 Don't stick to HTTP/1.1. HTTP over QUIC offers better encryption and censorship resistance, as it encrypts your ClientHello when accessing a website.

The best alternative to the web and everything is to stop coping.

>>74040 For this reason it makes sense to be maximally compatible with sites that follow your rules. It makes no sense to make a brand new "do not use javascript" protocol if you can just disable javascript in the browser and experience a slightly broader selection of functional sites.

WWW is for plebs SIPRnet is the future

>>73570 >The World Wide Web is fuarrked. It’s evolved in a complicated mess where there are only 2 corporate privacy violating web browsers that work with most sites. For me the WWW is still usable with Palemoon and a series of extensions. Palemoon is an independent browser (it's forked from various firefox components over 10+ years into its own engine, and is not reliant on upstream firefox, and much less so now that firefox has a Rust build dependency), and I use eMatrix to block everything except for 1st party images and CSS files. If a site is trustworthy and makes it pretty clear what it's doing in the background, I slowly enable more permissions (such as 1st party JS, 3rd party images, CSS, and JS from known trustworthy sources, etc), but only if they are strictly needed my own functionality and use case. I also have a few polyfills that I use that fix some broken sites with JS disabled (essentially I'm running my own, known and trustworthy JS instead of the site's unknown JS). Lastly, if I really need to use a webapp, I use firefox or ungoogled chromium with ublock. Think of Palemoon as a browser and Firefox/UGC as an app runtime. With this setup I largely block out the bad parts of the web (bloat, pointless scripts, telemetry, insecure APIs), while still having access to the few new good parts of the web (such as running sandboxed untrustworthy web apps, instead of needing a native app that has access to the entire system, and easily sharing trustworthy web apps with nontechnical users without them needed to natively install an app). >ipfs Hashes are useful for static assets, but causes problem for dynamic content. A URL points to a location with data that may change, while the hash points to content that can't change (without changing the hash). Ideally for IPFS to be useful, the developer would need an easy way to switch between locations and hashes (for example, use ipfs: protocol for <img> tags and https: protocol or other location protocols for dynamic plaintext files). This would save a lot of global bandwidth by using peer-to-peer for static assets, without compromising on dynamic content, best of both worlds.

>website hosting I2P, Tor (Onionshare for new users). You can host from a soykafty computer in your bedroom or buy a VPS over Tor with Monero. >subscriptions RSS. If you're doing a blog this is arguably more important than a webpage. For basic usage you can even edit it by hand. >sharing big files BitTorrent, including over I2P. IPFS is on hold for me until then can into anonymity networks. Freenet isn't anonymous enough(?). >donations, bankrolling Monero. >discussion Chans (like this one!) or host your own for your comments section. You're now uncancellable. Your blog. Your video channel. Your picture gallery. Your pirate repack torrent releases. Your patreon furry art and onlyfans simp bucks nude releases even! (With some extra webdev)

why do you care. do you think you can win by digging underground

>>73578 this is schizo af lmao

Normal HTML+CSS websites, but inside the I2P network. Installing the I2P software and understanding what it is, is both a filter and a boon. Every node in the network increases bandwidth and anonymity. Every single new device connected to the I2P network increases bandwidth and anonymity. Anyone can just turn on the webserver in the I2P dashboard and instantly have a web site in the network that anyone anywhere can reach. I2P digs under a lot of censorship software that some countries use. All of this is great for I2P. However, the average person, especially kids, does not understand the difference between a web site and an app, they don't know how to install anything beyond going to the Apple App Store/Google Play Store and mushing their finger against the 'install' button on the screen. Because with I2P you have to actually use a real computer, understand a bit more about installing things, download the installer, run I2P, configure it, and then configure your web browser to go down into the I2P network, it basically acts as a IQ test. It naturally filters out the most dumb people. http://geti2p.net/en/

>>75226 i2p is made by some left wing activists, so it wouldnt be the first thing i woukd recommend.

>>75442 Right, you would prefer a protocol made by right-wing activists.

>>75442 low quality bait meow meow purr...

Maybe if there was a large enough meshnet that would be the only way. No meshnet has grown to a global scale though. There must be some way to standardize meshnets so they can all interconnect properly, isnt there?

>>75442 I'm not sure that's the case. Or as I assume you're implying the batshit crazy kind of communoid lunatics. Rather it's from what I understood a mixed bunch of people who focus on privacy as they themselves are not very public about their identities and that they contribute to the i2p project. Thus the left-right paradigm doesn't seem to apply much or possibly isn't even relevant since if the tool does what it was set out to do then there's hardly a problem, isn't there? >>75449 >kneejerk whataboutism I see why there's this reaction to your type (since you felt called out) since from personal experience I've found devoid "leftwingers" to be among the most unpleasant people online. With clear signs of narcissism and mental illness. And any moment arguing with them is usually a moment wasted. Granted, some are capable of putting an interesting project together all on their own but more often they seem to be more invested in shoving their stupid CoCs into everyone's throat and getting the original author booted from their github repo. You're not good people. >>75458 You're basically talking of having one or more protocols which facilitate p2p connections in a preferably secure and anonymized way by either piggybacking on existing TCP/IP systems or i2p for that matter, which is the antithesis to how the CCP for instance wishes to "redesign" the internet. And basically the more machines you have, the more you'll have the black bloc effect. This will force an oppressive system to either permit the usage or shut everything down altogether if tracking down of individuals is infeasible. Mesh network systems don't need to be "global" or rather be highly dense if they can connect and carry data between networks and if those networks are numerous enough. In addition it's also a question about reinventing the web and making enough people adapt that new way even while facebook and co is luring them back with the next shiny thing. Either way it's an engineering challenge but one I believe must be solved to have a chance as a species since the machinations of power demand that the human spirit must be crushed in order to benefit whomever psychopath managed to get to the very top this time. I have more thoughts on this matter but I just hope there's people smarter than me who share the same sense of importance about an unrestricted flow of information and feel up to the task to make it happen.

>>75458 >>75472 cuttlefish project or whatever the name was seems most realistic if you goal is just getting messages past isp limitations - phones peer2peer on proximity exchanging data directly, you do that with people taking flights/ships and you get international data flow. Its slow but it works. Given large enough adoption you could probably get to within a day delivery.

>>75473 I'm not sure I've heard of cuttlefish as a mesh net protocol. Sounds similar to piratebox. But yes, p2p phones via bluetooth or wifi is an interesting concept which could bypass heavy restrictions but then again the software needs to be installed and allowed to operate. But same goes for retooling wifi routers, enough neighbors need to participate in it to work but due to the short range it would be difficult to detect and long bridges could be achieved by directed antennas and possibly lasers but again, a ton of hobbyists would be needed who'd also have to be ready to face strict punishment since even today there's plenty of regulations on what signals may or may not penetrate the public air space. Either way, ideally any protocol meant for the assurance of free flow of information would be technology agnostic anyway for that reason and be able to be repurposeable for air and wire, light and string even. But most importantly it would need a killer app for adoption since only with a critical mass any network is viable. And viable it must be since only then you can have organization and only with organization can an increasingly centralized system be opposed. This is why protests get their facebook event pages removed and so on. It would be interesting how mainland chinese still get around some of the CCP madness and manage to have bitcoins and such. But little of that gets out for obvious reason. For now however the general internet is still very viable to build on top so that should be the primary angle with everything else as an already prepared fallback. >>73578 At this point we might as well switch to transferring content only instead of any of the styling that's been making the contemporary www such a cancer built on mountains of js libraries. But without that bloat obviously many of the fancy things we've grown accustomed to are much harder to implement if at all possible. Or rely on very sophisticated desktop applications like readers/browsers/messengers, most likely needing to be purpose oriented each to make it work. It would use a fraction of today's bandwidth though so there's that at least. >>75226 i2p can be incorporated into ipad-baby applications iirc. Though chances are only FDroid will allow any of them. I despair thinking about millenials and gen-xers possibly ending up as the most tech literate generation after natural entry into tech has been walled off by those rounded corner gardens. Getting into coding from using windows was already a leap. But maybe PWA apps or other workarounds might allow to circumvent those heavily curated stores. If freedom of expression can not be guaranteed then speech and information should become impractical to restrict. Also OP, if you've still got that code, you could put it on https://git.lain.church/ or similar.

Gemini is just a gimmicky version of gopher IPFS is derrezed by cloudflare Personally I see no problem with TOR but I wish Gopher got more love.

>>76781 Maybe get a job as a carpenter or something to pay for your passion project. If you are too tired to be passionate then it must not have been all that great anyway. If someone "steals" your work, then be glad your idea is being propagated without you needing to continue to pay for it to be.

>>76781 I'm not aiming to replace the modern web with my idea of a simpler standard. I just proposed to create a standardized way to enjoy web with some constraints to ensure the simplicity and independence of its subset. The subset already exists, we're just making a brand and rules for it. If you need money, you can still leave the credentials for donations or straight up send users to modern web's payment systems. I do understand, that some people really need it and I'm not against the money as a whole. And what comes to "winner gets all" and all the benefits... That's my opinion, but people are too keen on trying to find the infinite money glitch with the web. Draw a picture and sell it till the dawn of time, make a video and benefit from it for years to come, etc. That's not how it used to be. Pretty much everywhere you were only payed once for anything you create and everyone was ok with that. And not like every creator died from starvation. I'm with >>76789 on that. I visit a lot of forums, imageboards and personal web sites, where the content is put out not for the money, but because either the author is passionate about it or because they made it for themselves and was ready to share afterwards. It doesn't cost you to let others use the fruits of your labor in web, and in my opinion that's a more important thing to focus on, than the aforementioned infinite money glitch. I'll try to find some time to sum up my idea in a more cohesive way next week. I'm not sure I really want to push the whole "standard" idea into reality, as I'm lacking the required web expertise to do it myself. But I think it might be a fun idea to think about and to try define it all in clear terms.

there is no good p2p network. >i2p overcomplicated, mysterious settings, need to open incoming port (wtf) >freenet unless you have friends which you don't you will have to insecurely connect to centralized servers (not p2p) >yggdrasil who? >ipfs fancy, broken, useless, a glorified file upload service >lokinet tor but less people and more hype >tor not p2p >cuttlefish, briar android >zeronet javascript required to run interface, does not work anymore >anything else does not exist

>>75442 As someone who is probably categorized as right wing by most people, probably even far right if we got into the details on certain topics, we need to stop with this left wing right wing criticism of software origins. The genetic fallacy is just that, a fallacy, and one of the worse ones at that when the origin in question (left wingers) is one that shifts. You are like the people who criticize Urbit for being fascist when you do this. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms that can be made without falling into this fallacious thinking.

>>78107 As someone who is often categorized as right wing; le wordsalad. You sure chose a retarded way to call people hypocrites.

>>78108 Your are so cooked if that is wordsalad to you and if you believe the tl;dr is that people are hypocrites. The point that some people are hypocrites is not even the main point, it was an attempt to make the person I was replying to have a sense of empathy. I don't even know what they think of Urbit, or Brave, or whatever other project I could have used as an example of a supposedly fascist origin. The main point is that the origin does not determine the quality or end of software.

There is the possibility of designing websites to use locally hosted libraries to be called on instead of using a CDN. This would make pages load very quickly and not clog up the network as well as in theory should be more secure than execution of code downloaded that you dont always get chance to check what it does. You also could build a meshnet that basically acts like automated pirate boxes but for websites where you can have site updates spread device to device based on subscriptions to partially make up for limited range of meshnets.

>>83648 this is missing engineers and makes it look like the repooplican party is basically dead which it isnt world runs on a lot of things also repooplicans are generally for better and worse not very right wang

>>73594 Jesus, chill the fuarrrk out

>>84198 what about gopher or gemini over i2p? no HTML fuarrrkery, static sites, over an anonymous network.