/Tapes/ General

Ask questions relating to or discuss the use of cassette tapes for transferring data incognito through sneakernet or for storing encrypted data etc. Is there any interest in a lainchan tape trading ring where we all trade data on tapes via the postal/mail service to one another? I think tapes are a cool avenue of underground comms that isn't being taken advantage of. Post your tape related ideas here.

Isn't cassette tape prone to wear and damage? Wouldn't that affect sensitive data? Tapes are definitely being used a lot for experimental-type music in the last few years, if you're into that. But there the point is that they *do* wear down and affect the sound in unexpected ways.

I really like this idea. In a sneakernet CDs are not easy to put in your pocket and transfer person to person because of their shape and fragility. Thumb drives are great but you can't verify the relatively complicated hardware. E.g. you cant tell if a glowie has some hardware or software embedded on it. Tapes are compact and you could build your own tape reader soo much easier than an optical or thumb drive. Could this be the suckless sneakernet solution?

>>41773 If they are used for short term transferring from one mail carrier to another than wouldn't the data be mostly okay? Or do tapes degrade that fast?

>>41787 Why not mini CDs? You can fit those in your pocket. Too bad DataPlay disks which are even smaller were just write once which means they aren't a viable choice because it's a defunct medium.

>>41793 What about mini DVD's? They a little over 1GB of data.

>>41763 Tape drives are expensive and usually not worth it until you have terrabytes of data you don't need to read fast. SD cards might make more sense for sneakernet - cheaper to send, easier to access. Are you lainons really going to post you address for sneakernet exchange?

>>41806 Everyone's scared to post their personal information but who is more trustworthy, random lainons or the technocrats who already tricked most of us into giving them a soykaf ton of info? We may as well get comfortable with it.

>>41792 >If they are used for short term transferring from one mail carrier to another than wouldn't the data be mostly okay? Or do tapes degrade that fast? Tapes should be fine for about 30 years of storing (may depend on technology used and quality of materials plus other factors). Unless you store them in microwave oven, inside termonuclear reactor or inside MRI grade fields. In general tapes are good for huge amount of data that need to be stored for very long time and read rather rarely. Like for example data from some complicated Monte Carlo simulation repeated over 9000 times for some nuclear department of pharmaceutical company etc. Or for TV stations that saves raw data of 4K videos for all their productions in pre cut form plus B-rolls. Of course main villain for their survival are EMF and EMP. So if one is going for making them withstand weird solar activity or EMP bombs they must make sure they are shielded properly from such mean stuff. Using them for snailmail exchange makes little sense unless you want to ship like 15 TB of data at once. Which is occasionally done by some companies using messengers. Because procedures, security and stuff. Also keep in mind that snailmail have quiet significant amount of "package less" especially in some countries.

>>41821 Also another problem is amount of formats in existence. Some type of them have pretty expensive drives while other older format drives have quiet affordable prices on 2nd hand market.

>>41806 P.O boxes are a thing if lains are willing to go through that process.

>>41821 >Using them for snailmail exchange makes little sense unless you want to ship like 15 TB of data at once. I didn't think we were going to send those kinds of cassettes. At most I was thinking VHS tapes if you can find a VHS data deck.

>>41826 Even more expensive to ship. SD cards fit in a letter, and require no special hardware. Really, still way more expensive and slower than simply using the internet. Doesnt really provide any security or anomity properties that are intresting either. Does have a cool opsec like feeling though.

>>41763 SLR > LTO change my mind

>>41829 >Even more expensive to ship How expensive is it to ship a VHS tape?

Seems like a good way to store important data if you're worried about all your computer gear being taken in a raid. They're easy to hide in a music collection because for some fuarrrking reason tapes are a popular format again for small releases. Just make sure it's not obvious you've been writing to them from your PC. I wonder if you can write and read them with only a stereo and a standard sound card.

>>41849 Because tapes require a package, while sdcards will take a letter

How Lain does transfer data between computer and tape? I know how to play music or audio from one and have equipment for such, but what is a cheap and efficient way to transfer it to computer and back? By cheap I mean less than 100$.

>>41806 >>41825 Or the good old dead dropping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_drop

I use encrypted slash cards. they are so small as to be easily hidden in the real, and can be encrypted and store large volumes of data.

>>41854 I understand. In reality it would make more sense to send an SD card than a tape. I think we just want it to seem more cyberpunk-ish.

Using audio cassette tapes to transfer data like the Commodore 64 is brilliant. Absolutely zero botnet because it's read using an analog cassette player, and connected to the analog input on a sound card and decoded using audio modem software. Writing data is just as easy by reversing the steps. You could even read and write to the tapes manually using a magnet. It's far superior to the proprietary firmware in hard drives and flash, even better than optical drives because it doesn't require any microprocessors.

>>41925 Honestly I thought that's what we were going to send back and forth.

>>41965 You can even duplicate cassette tapes using 2 cassette players only, would be great for a sneakernet relay network. Just by exchanging the tapes back and forth and writing new data to them. This is actually more anonymous than printers, because you can duplicate encrypted data onto old tapes with no fingerprinting.

>>41978 I didn't know that. I love that idea. Since the tape is magnetic I can assume you could overwrite the data with no trace?

>>42124 >Since the tape is magnetic I can assume you could overwrite the data with no trace? Quiet the opposite.

>>42138 Are cassettes easily obtainable?

>>42124 You need to run multiple random overwrite patterns, or have a good degausser. The tape can be reused after being degaussed. Absolutely zero metadata from microdots or firmware, source can be arbitrarily obfuscated using analog re-recording several times. >>42145 The best feature of audio cassettes and VHS is that any old cassette can be overwritten with new data. You can get old cassettes from thrift stores and just overwrite them. Any cassette player, even portable units, can be used to read data from audio cassettes.

>>42145 Depending on your location, there are also companies still releasing music on them. Some time ago (years after it was dropped by mainstream) it was only medium for music allowed in USA prisons. Dunno how it's now. Some underground black metal, dungeon synth, ambient and synthwave musicians release their albums only on this physical format. They buy old new stocks online (there are possibly stocks for good few decades still hold by warehouses here and there) or order whole batch of tapes to be recorded by companies that still produce them.

>>41861 Just face it lainons, dead dropping cassette tapes is cream of the crop when it comes to OPSEC. >>41825 And yeah, P.O boxes are a thing for non-local data exchange. >>41826 What about this: We start our own international lainon cyberpunk/cypherpunk sneakernet postal/mail exchange of both encrypted data on cassette tapes as well as unencrypted audiovisual data recorded onto VHS. We encrypt data onto an audio cassette tape with parity bits to preserve the data redundancy. Maybe include .txt essays or darknet links encoded onto the tape. slot that badboy in and hit the record button and you've got yourself an encrypted file or folder, then just figure out the password with hints given to you by the sender. Could make it a whole culture of esoteric puzzle type trash. Because reading data from a VHS tape using a computer is difficult, VHS tapes would be better styled for putting together audio/visual collages with maybe some darknet links thrown in to flash onto the screen near the end of the video, linking to a personal web page of who made the tape originally or whoever edited it after etc. Then whoever watches it can manually type out the link if they want. Though darknet addresses are pretty long so having to manually type them out might be a pain. Maybe data could be steganographically encoded into the audio/visual collages on the VHS tape? Plug your VCR into your computer, record that soykaf and decode it and then you get the data while also enjoying a nice trippy underground audio/visual experience on your monitor. Data could probably still be encoded in the audio as in my experience when a VHS degrades, the audio usually remains fine for the most part, it's just the visual that gets fuzzy though both have to be effected at some point with them both being on tape. I think Video is the first to go though.

>>41819 >who is more trustworthy, random lainons or the technocrats who already tricked most of us into giving them a soykaf ton of info? Why are we sending personal info? Depending on what you send it doesn't need to contain personal info.

>>42331 >We encrypt data onto an audio cassette tape with parity bits to preserve the data redundancy. Maybe include .txt essays or darknet links encoded onto the tape. slot that badboy in and hit the record button and you've got yourself an encrypted file or folder, then just figure out the password with hints given to you by the sender. Could make it a whole culture of esoteric puzzle type trash. Could be a good idea until the glowies figure it out. Maybe do a dead box chain of exchange until it reaches it's destination. Only using the postal system to send the tapes international. Will be slower but in theory should raise less questions. I could be wrong though. The only downside to this is finding enough local lains to do this so I can't see this going over as much as I would want it to. >Because reading data from a VHS tape using a computer is difficult If you can make something to connect the VCR to the PC it would just be slow to do. But I can see how that might be difficult to accomplsh. Theoretically a VHS tape should hold around 3GB - 4GB of data. >VHS tapes would be better styled for putting together audio/visual collages with maybe some darknet links thrown in to flash onto the screen near the end of the video, linking to a personal web page of who made the tape originally or whoever edited it after etc I like this idea. It doesn't even need to be darknet links. It can be any one of the alt-net service links. >Maybe data could be steganographically encoded into the audio/visual collages on the VHS tape? Could work if done right. Would require every lain to know how to decode it. >Plug your VCR into your computer, record that soykaf and decode it and then you get the data while also enjoying a nice trippy underground audio/visual experience on your monitor. Hopefully it's just that and not anything grotesque. >Data could probably still be encoded in the audio as in my experience when a VHS degrades, the audio usually remains fine for the most part, it's just the visual that gets fuzzy though both have to be effected at some point with them both being on tape. I think Video is the first to go though. Usually the video degrades faster than the audio but the audio will degrade with the video. I can't say for certain how many times you can copy over a VHS and it will still be usable. VHS tapes are cheap however and I have got some myself for the price of an old womans generosity. You just need to write over the movie what you want and make sure there is no trace of what you wrote over.

>>42331 Schway idea , but someone will just post tape content online anyway. Not sharin my address nibba. Also cyberpunk content should probably be public to cyberpill the masses.

>>42331 >What about this: We start our own international lainon cyberpunk/cypherpunk sneakernet postal/mail exchange of both encrypted data on cassette tapes as well as unencrypted audiovisual data recorded onto VHS. VHS recordings aren't worldwide compatible. NA and JP use NTSC, EU uses PAL, France uses SECAM, some Asian countries use PAL60. Tapes recorded on one system won't play on another. Multisystem VCRs are usually easy to find in PAL territories due to the relative popularity of imports, however they are far from the norm.

>>42405 Is there a way to modify that to make it work? Everything I looked up about it says it has something to do with playback speed.

>>42427 Kind of, but not really. Mainly it has to do with how many scanlines a TV screen has, which varies from region to region, refresh rates, and how much power the VCR is using.

>>42433 (me) I do like the Commodore cassette tape drive idea, it seems like the best way to go about it. By converting data to audio and then back with a tape drive a lot could be accomplished. I guess they could be shared via dead drops like another lainon suggested. It would just be cassette tape geocaching at that point, which would be kind of cool, I guess.

>>42433 What about DVD's then? You can make those region free?

>>42427 Not really. Control signals and video subcarriers/modulation vary between regions, not just tape speed. You'd have to pretty much replace the entire video circuitry, and readjust all the servo control settings. >>42433 >Mainly it has to do with how many scanlines a TV screen has That's the video signal itself, which isn't encoded 1:1 onto tape. Due to the differences mentioned above, a non-multisystem VCR will fail to get a servo lock on a tape from a different region. Which means you'll get garbage out of the video output, at best. If the video signal were encoded 1:1 onto the tape, the issue would be minimized. Most TV sets from the late 90s onwards are multisystem, and even non-multisystem sets will show a black and white picture when fed with a signal from another region, with only a bit of V-Hold knob twiddling needed. >and how much power the VCR is using Voltage, not power. This could be solved with a simple external autotransformer. But I'm sure this wouldn't be an issue, as importing a VCR with a different voltage input would be more likely than not more expensive than finding a multisystem deck locally. >>42469 DVD region lock is almost completely artificial, so yes. You could make region-free DVDs. But both standalone DVD recorders and computers record metadata (S/N of the recorder, software version, etc.) on the disc, even if you're just doing a video recording. Less than ideal. >>42434 I think Compact Cassettes would be the way to go, too: -Tape speed is standard across the globe -By far the most extended tape format, getting a new or second hand machine is piss easy -Transports still made today (Unlike any other analog tape format, aside maybe from very high end r2r machines) -Servicing machines is easy and self-explanatory to a greater degree than VCRs. The only adjustments in a simple cassette deck are: speed, head azimuth, record bias and audio levels; all of which can be adjusted by ear in a pinch. -Even the cheapest of the cheap (Looking at you, Tanashin) transports are relatively reliable -Decks vary from fully mechanical (1960s to late 70s models) to fully computer-controlled (All late 80s to late 90s high end decks), yet none of them record signals of their own (Aside from auto bias/level/EQ adjustment signals on said high-end decks; which are optional, non-unique, and can be completely erased) -Signals completely in the audio domain; Easy to transfer to other media, easy to manipulate, easy to do D/A and A/D, easy to encode/decode -Unlike videotape, defects in the media (Wrinkles, humidity, mold) don't really have the ability to completely destroy equipment (As there's only linear heads in the tape path, with HUGE tolerances) -Professional and car-grade tapes can withstand adverse conditions

Runs well in wine too http://ollydbg.de/Paperbak/

>>42509 Alright then, thanks for clearing it up! I'm not too knowledgeable about VCRs, I've only tried, and failed, to splice them. >>42469 DVDs have metadata and other identifying information potentially stored on them. Not really the case with cassettes.

>>42161 There's actually new cassette tapes being produced out there too. A great place for that would be tapeline.info, they sell both new old stock and brand new cassette tapes in a variety of colors. Maybe we could have a color system for priority?

>>41851 >I wonder if you can write and read them with only a stereo and a standard sound card. You definitely can, but you won't get much capacity. Back in the 8bit days people used to record programs off the radio.

>>41890 >I understand. In reality it would make more sense to send an SD card than a tape. I think we just want it to seem more cyberpunk-ish. If that's your goal, minidiscs are definitely the way.

>>42550 I found that looking more into how DVD's work. I understand why that would be a bad idea.

>>42566 Minidiscs are expensive

>>42509 The linear head of audio cassette tapes is incredibly useful. Unlike other magnetic media like floppy disks, you could feasibly read and write from the tape manually, just by manually winding the tape reel to a position and setting or reading the magnetic polarity with an on-off toggle switch and electromagnet. You could probably even make your own magnetic tapes if needed.

So this is peak cyberpunk anti-botnet setup: TTL discrete IC, vacuum tube or relay computer like MyCPU or Gigatron, CRT TV for display, cassette tapes for storage, diode matrix for bootloader, manual switches, dials and keys for input, pirate AM, Shortwave radio or RONJA free-space optics for wireless, audio modem for networking. Every component can be verified by hand, and are all analog. This setup can run every useful computer task, it can even connect to lainchan.

>>41890 >>42577 Mini CD or miniDVD

>>42577 >Minidiscs are expensive Blank minidiscs are available for $1 each on eBay, on par with cassettes. Minidiscs hold around 300mb, cassettes hold 0.5-1mb of data depending on tape length and baud rate. Minidisk players usually have digital in/output. Minidisc players are more expensive than cassette players. Overal I'd say minidiscs win on capacity, durability and the tactile 'click' of slotting one into the player.

>>42624 >Shortwave radio Lainchan numbers station? >>42650 How much do minidisc players usually go for?

>>42657 >How much do minidisc players usually go for? NetMD players (which you'll want unless you're using a modem and encoding your files as audio) go for $30-$100 depending on the model, extras, phase of the moon etc. Search NetMD on eBay.

Note that most NetMD players use a docking cradle to connect over USB, so do your research before buying one without a cradle included.

The absolute best feature of cassette tapes is that the analog noise created by writing and reading can be used to justify the presence of random data for hiding steganographic data volumes on the tape. Digital media like optical disks do not have this feature. >>42657 Shortwave broadcasts encrypted with OTP, yes.

>>42700 >The absolute best feature of cassette tapes is that the analog noise created by writing and reading can be used to justify the presence of random data for hiding steganographic data volumes on the tape. Digital media like optical disks do not have this feature. Just move to country where you don't have to remember passphrases you forgot

>>42650 Do minidiscs carry metadata? That was a concern when someone mentioned DVD's.

>>42705 The most simple of solutions. Just pack your soykaf and leave.

>>42552 Ooh, I like the idea of colour coding the tapes. >>42713 And yeah, I'd be all for using minidiscs if they didn't have the same metadata issues as DVD's so if someone could verify this for us that'd be great.

Tapes can also be easily and perfectly overwritten with analog noise. Absolutely no data remanence except for some magnetic hysteresis that can be completely degaussed. The magnetic hysteresis could even be used as a steganographic data channel. Good luck trying to recover the data after that. >>42705 Laws can change faster than you can move. If you move every single time they change a law, you are just being corralled like an animal. The actual wise thing to do is reform and improve the country, if it is broken. >>42713 Since DVD and inkjet printers secretly include metadata on recordings, you can safely assume MiniDisc does too.

>Since DVD and inkjet printers secretly include metadata on recordings, you can safely assume MiniDisc does too. Obviously they've never had the eyeballs DVDs have had, but it seems the minidisc format has been pretty well reverse engineered at this point and nobody's found any secret metadata. Given that their primary intended mode of operation is recording analog audio through line in, I don't see what kind of metadata it could be saving anyway. https://www.minidisc.org/part_hacking.html

Mother used to code soykaf (don't remember in what language, probably something low level that can run on a cheap terminal as it involved direct adress manipulat° and she wanted to work with the least layers possible. doubt it was asm though) back in the mid 80s. She saved her code on cassettes,which took minutes, and her parents would unplug the terminal thinking she left it unused. lol Copying data was an absolute pain and the code died when you read the cassette too many times. "Even punching cards would be more reliable long term" to quote her, kek. wouldn't recommend.

>>42941 That's just overt metadata, steganographic metadata like microdots which records the printer serial number always remains a threat with MiniDisc writers with proprietary firmware. Analog audio cassettes guarantee absolutely zero metadata or botnet. >>42960 Should have used RAID 1 or 5 on those cassette tapes. Fairly easy to duplicate backup tapes. You can even write to multiple tapes at once from the same audio output.

>>42966 Is there a way to change the firmware?

>>42941 That's just overt metadata, steganographic metadata like microdots which records the printer serial number always remains a threat with MiniDisc writers with proprietary firmware. Analog audio cassettes guarantee absolutely zero metadata or botnet. >>42960 Should have used RAID 1 or 5 on those cassette tapes. Fairly easy to duplicate backup tapes. You can even write to multiple tapes at once from the same audio output. >>42967 Sure, dump the ROM, reverse engineer and hex-edit the binary firmware, and then reflash the firmware or install a new ROM modchip. This still will not eliminate silicon level backdoors like me or wildvine, though.

>>43004 >Sure, dump the ROM, reverse engineer and hex-edit the binary firmware, and then reflash the firmware or install a new ROM modchip. This still will not eliminate silicon level backdoors like me or wildvine, though. How do they backdoor then?

>>43088 The CPU or IC can have built-in backdoor like intel management engine. Even if you change the BIOS firmware, the backdoor remains active.

>>43099 That makes sense. I guess tapes it is then.