Cashless Society:A Thin line with Promises

A Cashless Society would be theoretically benifitted the masses but the way it is implemented is the mere irony of it. Physical Cash can be Still Track no matter what you wish. If there is only a way to transact in a Pseudo-Anonymous manner. Cryptocurency also can be tracked (With enough (Manpower), what else can we do to mitigate or end this?

Reject fiat currency, only trade for and with physical goods, use a disguise.

>> Cryptocurency also can be tracked did they break morelo already?

>>33304 They broke it in the past. For not its secure until another problem is found.

yeah, banks can't track the payments you do with credit/debit cards, they can though track the cash.

one thing that you shouldnt ignore when you are shopping is that you should never use a membership card or a discount card or something along those lines nowadays they keep a profile on all your purchases, happened to me when i was slightly younger, it figured out that i was allergic to a bunch of stuff, kinda scary if that (which is probably unsecure af)thing knows my fatal weaknesses >>33309 obv you are being ironic, but considering most cash transactions are taxed they could be tracked with some difficulties even if your name isnt attached to the purchase, your name is attached to your paycheck, and if you ever take out a loan(which if you arent rich, you probs will) it will still be tracked, but cash is obviously more secure but it isnt untrackable.

>>33302 let me get this straight you are s hilling cashless payment and your main argument is: pysical cash can tracked ?

>>33311 Theres the old story of some american chain store identifying people as pregnant before they themselves knew because they had such a massive sample size of purchases they could figure it out. If it was maybe true then I am certain that it is certainly true now, with the huge sample sizes of loyalty cards and advances in data analytics make me sure they can figure out things like that and probably a lot more from purchase patterns.

>>33315 in my country the supermarkets literally give you "special offers" customized to you, and based on the data it collects. basically, in theory, it could tell that you are an alcoholic and feed upon it, constantly giving you ads for alcohol whenever you try to check the coupons avialable at the front enterance(its kind of a tablet where you swipe your loyalty card and it shows you deals, most of them are tailored to you, and are there to make you buy stuff you dont need)

>>33315 They found out simply by associating what other products women buying baby items also bought. You can just filter out normal purchases by comparing people who don't buy baby products with people who buy baby products. Girl went on their website looking at such items -> they figured she was preggo -> sent her discounts for baby products-> father raised a soykafstorm how dare they claim his little princess was preggo-> got told she actually was preggo-> media

Monero >>33308 'cracking' something that had barely any development yet is not meaningful. Will you argue that encryption doesnt work because old substitution ciphers were broken?

>>33322 I will argue there are no guarantees because of heartbleed and the development with elliptic curves where the supposed quantum resistant algo was found out not to be so. We essentially don't know if something is safe until 20 years later down the line we can look back and say yes seems like nobody broke it.

>>33303 Well how about Non-Physical Goods?

wat about gift economy?

>>33334 lmao wake the fuarrrk up

>>33302 >Physical Cash can be Still Track no matter what you wish how's that? also, the "only real problems" with physical cash are: 1. Can't earn interest on it (so there's no mitigation to inflation fking you) 2. Can be stolen (nobody's going to underwrite the greenbacks in your wallet) 3. Can be inconvenient for extremely large amounts, and #2 is extra relevant

>>33334 A gift economy or gift culture is a mode of exchange where valuables are not traded or sold, but rather given without an explicit agreement for immediate or future rewards. Social norms and customs govern gifting in a gift culture, gifts are not given in an explicit exchange of goods or services for money, or some other commodity or service. This contrasts with a barter economy or a market economy, where goods and services are primarily explicitly exchanged for value received. Gift exchange is distinguished from other forms of exchange by a number of principles, such as the form of property rights governing the articles exchanged; whether gifting forms a distinct "sphere of exchange" that can be characterized as an "economic system"; and the character of the social relationship that the gift exchange establishes. Gift ideology in highly commercialized societies differs from the "prestations" typical of non-market societies. Gift economies also differ from related phenomena, such as common property regimes and the exchange of non-commodified labour.

>>33334 How did that lardwhale in the background get so fat on gift watermelon?

What is wrong with this thread? Cash and crypto like Monero are much harder to track than cards. For cash obviously some tracking techniques are around but that's because of criminals and even then the tracking is for larger amounts of cash. No one is tracking you if you do your grocery shopping with cash. They are however, if you pay by card.

>>33302 It's already somewhat close to complete cashless in China and if you diss your local government as a journalist, say the magic words as an influencer, and generally be stupid, then they can and will immediately deny your visa and your money card/app accounts. Not the best idea. A thread died for this.

>>33312 Nope. I'm trying to figure out how to make my trasactions almost untraceable.

>>33421 I just use bank cards and Cash or even maybe Cheques for large transaction that's it. 70%Physical 30%Non-Physical transactions.

how about stop valuing exploitation? real 'wealth' doesn't come from blowing up brown bodies in the 3rd world nor cooking the planet with coin mining. i do not wish to share in that, 'wealth'.

>>33429 cooking the planet? TIL cryptocurrency causes global warming

>>33334 It is a broken dream

>>33429 reminder the biggest climate changes came from comets. Next rock hits it's game over either way. >>33421 Cash anonymization starts working once it's circulating. Most people do ATM-> buy at store. Without circulation they remain traceable. As for the problem with crypto - it's the exchange process itself. You leave your identity behind when you buy crypto and buy goods placing a reception adress. Anomyzing the middle can't prevent linking X bought crypto, there's a delivery from crypto site to X adress. You would essentially need to aquire crypto anon and receive goods anon.

>>33409 How do you prevent the accumulation of social capital? It seems that popular and charismatic people will always have an advantage in such a system.

The challenge for anyone who wants to radically change the world is to dispel the magical aura of the market and the attendant myth of human impotence. Markets don’t have power or agency, people do. Think of what happens during a revolutionary general strike. People refuse to work or perform even basic social rituals. The state dissolves overnight and, for a miraculous instant, anything is possible. Banks could be public property, roads could be pedestrian thoroughfares, shopping districts could be spaces for political deliberation and the government could really be for the people. Anyone who asserts that there is something inevitable in the historical process has not studied the subject. The beginning of radical hope is the recognition that social relationships are arbitrary and mutable — and need not be mediated through monetary transactions.

>>33430 >Mining requires a lot of power >Power generation causes pollution We've known this pretty much since 2012.

>>33438 mining does not need power. the whole network could run on a decent desktop. its the distrust/decentralization that is so costly.

>>33438 We've known that for FAR longer than that. LOL

>>33451 Yes, we have known that WELL before then. But I am referring to when a several news sites spilled it all over normal peoplephere and they were like "Oh soykaf, I never even considered this!" like this guy. >>33449 ...I do not care about how you want to twist the words. It uses a lot of electricity. That is the point. Mining costs energy. Trust is a subset of that as well as transferring. And so on and so forth. I don't care, because my entire point is that "Yeah no soykaf, sarcastic nigger" and I even took the time to lead you through the logical chain of how to get there.

>>33433 Comets???

>>33435 Any form of economy will and take advantage over anything.

>>33429 Lots of btc mining is now starting to use power stations excess power... stations can't spool down the power quickly or efficiantly, when demand dips they just.dump excess power... now they mine btc instead! Btc forces energy efficiancy.

>>33647 Nonsense, bitcoin mining generates zero intrinsic value, and is now using huge amounts of power. It doesn't generate any value (exchange value is not the same as generated value), it trades our hopes of not having an ridiculously overheated future for muh anarcho-capitalism.

>>33652 It looks to me like monroe and bitcons actually act as a battery. You spend energy at one point in time and get it out at a another. To say it has no value at this point is kind of absurd.

>>33653 Due to the way mining works, the overwhelming majority of work is a complete waste of energy and time.

>>33653 Nothing like a battery. A battery takes in nearly equal intrinsic value as it outputs. Contrary to this, bitcoin has zero intrinsic value, and only has extremely volatile exchange value. You might spend and gain equal, similar, or better "values", but the externality far outstrips even this value. You're looking at this like a stock trader, a leech on society, a petty tyrant, a fäggot of the highest order, a detriment to our world and the people that live in it. There's hope for e-capitalism, but this ain't it.

>>33655 What hope is there for (any) capitalism? You had me glad another lainanon was using class analysis for a moment

>>33311 I don't like to use those but is there any benefit of the member card they could not due with regular purchase data (besides refine with DOB and email)?

>>33437 Thus chop was born.

>>33681 cash transactions are also tracked via a member card but not via a credit/debit card and its a lot easier to organize what you are buying and how much and how often via a member card other than a credit/debit

>>33655 >like a stock trader (a leech on society, a petty tyrant) Woah, these are some heavy accusations to direct at billions persons. Do you have any proof? If not, you cannot reasonably claim anything worse than neutrality. One good thing that stock traders do is trade stocks. They give their money to a person that wants that money in exchange for some ownership of some company and get from that person that ownership of that company, or give their some ownership of some company to a person that wants that ownership of that company in exchange for that some money and get from that person that money. Each party who voluntarily agrees to a transaction benefits thereby.

Unless your digital currency system is hard coded to disallow a small number of people from controlling the majority of the transactions, it's only a matter of time before it ends up just another centralized fiat. Even with such countermeasures, there's no realistic way to prevent such mass accumulation while preserving anonymity. So we're left with the choice between privacy which facilitates wealth hoarding and consolidation into few hands, or vice versa. Choose wisely.

>>33720 so your saying we should use a long emission cryptonote with cpu bound pow for max decentralization? I agree.

>>33719 While I sympathize with your delicate sensibilities, that isn't what stock traders do. They trade what is in effect ownership tokens. If I own 500 ownership tokens out of a total of 1000, I have 50% stake, and can be on the board in a prominent position. The company never sees any of this money, but they're required to pay out to token holders. The company is responsible for not only securing its own finances, but those of token holders. So ya, the lain's rather insulting statements are in line with reality, they're basically leeches. >>33720 Bitcoin is only non-centralized now because of gentlemen's agreements. It came to be the case that securing 51%+ of the network was relatively trivial through the formation of mining pools, which centralize. The main codebase has disproportionate control over the protocol, more centralization. The list goes on. Wasting electricity on this is just that: waste. We need a currency that doesn't waste valuable resources, is resistant to centralization, and either facilitates, or can be facilitated by privacy-focused services.

>>33724 I think just abolishing private property would be great for the environment! or wait no we need a currency so we can establish eco-fascism and continue the same revolving door of oppression

>>33727 nobody is oppressed, that's just communist myth making, covering for the lazy and stupid. if you work, you get a reward.

>>33724 How about a crypto that is generated based on human biological data? >Some exemplary embodiments of the present disclosure may use human body activity associated with a task provided to a user as a solution to “mining” challenges in cryptocurrency systems. For example, a brain wave or body heat emitted from the user when the user performs the task provided by an information or service provider, such as viewing advertisement or using certain internet services, can be used in the mining process. Instead of massive computation work required by some conventional cryptocurrency systems, data generated based on the body activity of the user can be a proof-of-work, and therefore, a user can solve the computationally difficult problem unconsciously. Accordingly, certain exemplary embodiments of the present disclosure may reduce computational energy for the mining process as well as make the mining process faster. https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2020060606

>>33728 forcing people to work for "rewards" is oppression, but since you already know this and are dog whistling I won't bother going further

>>33724 >Bitcoin is only non-centralized now because of gentlemen's agreements. It came to be the case that securing 51%+ of the network was relatively trivial through the formation of mining pools, which centralize. The main codebase has disproportionate control over the protocol, more centralization. The list goes on. Wasting electricity on this is just that: waste. Ok so your telling me I shouldnt print my own money because other people already are dominating the industry? Maybe if nobody participates we can really centralize things! I think any industry giant (like an ASIC miner in china) who already has a firm grasp on an emerging technology would also tell people not to participate in the industry. Competition is like kicking dead whales down the beach. And ...does randomx play into this? I think you would have a much harder time centralizing moneros hashrate. Instead any attempt to centralize would only increase interest by other parties and their are soooo many dormant processors waiting to play.

>>33733 Meanwhile, the atmosphere gets thicker with greenhouse gases, because muh capitalism.

>>33729 Good find. I didnt want to bring this up too much but if you do a bit of research you can find evidence that john d rockefeller long ago wanted a cashless society with digital currency all transferable trough a chip in humans. Needless to say the id2020 program is pretty much setting it all up. Since his estate is one of the most powerful and rich in the world, even so far as to almost own the world and having a major hand in the united nations, it should take no genius to figure out where this goes either way. fuarrrk currencies of any kind to be honest, people need to become smart enough to do trading directly or they deserve to die out imo. Analog or digital currency, its all a load of bullshit and its only there to make the rich richer.

>>33746 >read soykaf that agrees with me >everything else is LIES, LIES GOD DAMN IT! kek, based.

>>33302 >Physical Cash can be Still Track no matter what you wish (I) assuming the ATM/bank keeps track of the serial numbers of the bank notes withdrawn by each person & (II) assuming each store where a person makes purchases/exchanges cash also keeps track of those serials at every single purchase/exchange

>>33748 What is lies? If you actually have ever read any political theory in your life you wouldn't be talking as if it's ever formally written from a moral perspective. Here I'll spoonfeed you: >workers should be slaves to people with more arbitrary material wealth than them I """"disagree"""" that this is a morally acceptable system >if is effective for the wealthy to profit off of slave labor This is evidently true You don't appear to be capable of critique so you assume that every else's position is also entirely based on screeching and personal remarks.

>>33745 How do we produce more greenhouse gasses if its more economical to used recycled hardware to mine?

>>33754 >me smart, u dum >read a book pleb, like big brained me You're assuming they haven't and disagree on some questionable grounds, which they haven't even stated. This is called a "strawman", and you're an idiot for using it.

The only only currency with value are hard currencies with intrinsic value. Fiat is completely worthless. Gold, silver, copper, other metals and commodities have been used as currency for all of human history from 9000 BC to now, and will continue to be used in the future long after every single state has collapsed. Gold will still be worth the same amount in the post-apocalypse as it has in the past, because it will always keep the same intrinsic value of being uncounterfeitable and durable. There is only one deception, and that is something that is literally worthless has worth. Any fiat currency is completely worthless, and will inevitably collapse from being glorified Ponzi scheme which lasts on average 40 years. Not even the worst kings and emperors in history issued fiat. The implosion in the us dollar has already begun.

Cryptocurrencies have intrinsic value as long as they provide DNS resolution like Namecoin, distributed computing like Ethereum or Proof-of-Existence like Bitcoin.

>>33781 >proof-of-existence lmao I can use my fuarrrking eyes I don't need proof of existence what is this trash

>>33782 I think the point is that we should have cryptocurrencies that are backed by something, like a promise of a service. For example, a upholsterer might issue his own upholstery coin, good for a particular type of upholstery, and he can be insured with an upholsterers union in case he's unable to provide the service so that someone else can provide the service so that the his upholstery-backed currency isn't dependent.on him specifically.

>>33782 Vision and memory are subjective, you can try asking two different eyewitnesses to recall the same event. Mathematics and DHTs are not. If you want an objective record of history, you will need Proof-of-Existence. It is the best way to authenticate digital photos and videos against forgery with photoshop or deepfake.

>>33810 >you can try asking two different eyewitnesses to recall the same event. That's a failure of memory, not of vision. Vision is generally very concrete.

>>33818 Optical illusions, hallucinations, night blindness, colorblindness, lack of depth perception, actual blindness and neurological conditions will greatly affect how different people view the same thing.

>>33810 Yes, yes, another way to document wrongthink, this time forever.

>>33820 all of these are rare and tested for before accepting the veracity of a witness statement. the original claim lain made stands. I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't happen, though, but memory is the most fallible component in the circuit. >>33831 could you elaborate?

>>33831 big brother fundamentally doesn't care about what actually happened in the past, because they just rewrite history to whatever they want it to be. He who controls the past, controls the future. He who controls the present, controls the past. An uncensorable, untamperable record of history is anathema to big brother. Ultimately, only truth can defeat lies.

>>33750 If someone robs a bank or collects ransom money etc the serial numbers will be registered. Also consider sting operations and setups. It could take years to track those notes down and would be even harder to pin them to someone. Or it could be the next day if stores were altered and on board, but thats unlikely as fuarrrk. Chances still remain but wash your notes (fingerprints and dna) and dont look at cameras directly.

>>33901 Banks will check, and they're in the know. If you avoid depositing your dirty notes, you're golden.

>>33750 The business doesn't have to track the bills to get a decent picture of where you are spending your money. ATM shows you withdrawing bill X on tuesday, bank registers bill X being deposited by Bob's Buttplugs Inc. on thursday, you can get a good idea what is going on. >>33334 Gifting is quite common in rural areas, people give each other home canned pickles and so on all the time. But you still need money to pay off the government (taxes, licenses, etc.) and for all the manufactured stuff you have to buy from far away.

>>33901 Come on robberies and ransoms are not ordinary transactions but it's true that cameras are an issue. >>33906 Good point but how often does that business deposit cash? and how often do people buy with cash there? and get back change?

>>33901 Just use coins, preferably gold or silver. Good luck tracking something without a serial number, and that can be melted down.

>>33912 Good luck trying to be inconspicuous with large coins that jingle stuffed down your bulging pocket

>>33984 its pretty heavy too

>>33984 >Good luck trying to be inconspicuous with large coins that jingle stuffed down your bulging pocket Spotted the non-Canadian.

>>33984 In most countries with such coins, you can get plastic-like containers to put a pre-determined number of coins in, which incidentally prevents them from jingling at all, though the intent is really just to facilitate storage & counting.

>>33311 I knew someone who worked in loss prevention at wal-mart. Purchases made with any card are logged and associated in a central server and stored indefinitely. Using any card is unwise.

>>33993 It's illegal to store CC numbers for reasons other than pre-authorized payments. Your claim is very sus.

>>33993 Any Walmart operating in GDPR-effective areas must delete data it has no use for within a reasonable time (or never acquire it) and only keep it for as long as legal requirements demand.

>>33995 You should explain what is meant by "no use for". Theft and fraud prevention seems like a use. >>33994 This is accurate.

>>33994 Why would they need to store the card number? They have your name, date of birth, billing address and all sorts of other identifying information that they can build a profile with. The number is just a number. >>33995 Are there even Walmarts in euroland? Most of the world does not fall under GDPR, and even where it is there are certainly loopholes.

>>33994 Is it legal to store the hash of a credit card number?

>>33999 How do they associate all this information with you then, exactly? You're making a lot of broad claims without so much as an iota of evidence.

>>34018 probably not, it would be trivial to reverse the hash.

>>34020 What? No it wouldn't. This is the whole point of a cryptographic hash: to not be reversible.

The only way to have a true cashless society is to crash the economy to the point that cash has no value anymore. Gold standard. Please give me a cool username.

>>34023 If you have the hash and salt, and know the keyspace, then it is trivial to reverse. How do you think key cracking works? Next time, shut the fuarrrk up when you think you're intelligent.

>>34019 because every time you swipe your card the card company gives it to them What, do you think they just email the card number and amount to the card company? There are APIs for all this.

>>34043 >>>the point >>> >>>(a lot of space) >>> >>>you There's a few things wrong with what you said. The most blatant is you've ignored the conversation about the legality/sanity of storing CC numbers (in any form). The second is most cc exchanges done (yes, through an api, very good clever boy) is done by a secure device that doesn't communicate with the network aside from "payment succeeded/rejected". The card company does NOT give them the cc number, that would be a massive security hole. Older systems do the connection, etc. with a computer external to the payment terminal, which made them vulnerable. Fortunately, embedded cpus are now powerful enough to do proper encryption.

>>34052 >doesn't communicate with the local network

>>33986 These platinum and gold coins are just as valuable as they were in 1835 and 420 BC. Almost all gold, silver and platinum coins actually have legal tender value. You could realistically carry around 500 g of gold coins per pocket, which would be 800 USD in face value, 30600 USD in intrinsic value.

>>33997 There are limitations on the times for fraud prevention stuff.

>>34056 u ever walked around with a backpack full of platinum?

>>34052 >The most blatant is you've ignored the conversation about the legality/sanity of storing CC numbers (in any form). I did, because nobody cares about the number. You don't need the number to track people, you just need some identifying information. A 16 digit random-ish number is actually quite poor as far as tracking goes. >a secure device that doesn't communicate with the network aside from "payment succeeded/rejected". I have heard this claim before, and while I am no expert on POS systems I am going to go ahead and call myself quite skeptical. Here is an except of that "payment succeeded" message for those square terminals you see in all the hipster establishments. It could be not all these are populated in all situations, but this is plenty to feed into your big data skinner box AI.

>>34056 Not edible, ergo still fiat

>>34071 You can easily carry 50 kg of gold or platinum in backpack, which is around 3 million USD in intrinsic value. >>34101 Tsk tsk. You don't eat gold and platinum? It's like you don't even smuggle cash across the North Korean border. Also, to get past metal detectors, chemically convert your gold and platinum into gold chloride and platinum chloride. These compounds are non-conductive and non-magnetic, and won't trigger a metal detector. Even CAT scanners can't distinguish organic and inorganic powders, as airport drug smugglers have proven.

>>34149 >easily carry 50 kg I know this is a tech site but some of us do stand upright. Carrying 50kg around for hours is unhealthy and hazardous, hiking websites recommend less than 20% of your bodyweight inb4 you're over 250kg. Settle for 300,000 USD and hope no-one steals it.

>>34149 >You can easily carry 50 kg of gold or platinum in backpack, which is around 3 million USD in intrinsic value. that puts you in an extremely vulnerable situation, and in a lot of environments filling your backpack with heavy metals will lead to your death because you will not have enough room for water. >>34101 this is the right idea here

>>34151 I have a set of weighted clothes about this heavy. Even when you get used to it you'll still be comically clumsy. It's totally bad for your back and knees to wear it for an extended period of time and people in the military get put on disability for what ruck marches do them.

>>33302 Is that the Zimbabwean dollar? Lol. Talking of hyper inflation, the worst was nearly hundred years ago in Hungary that dwarfs even Zimbabwe's one.

>>34151 >>34156 Even a teenage girl can carry 20 kg of water 6 km everyday in Africa. You can also increase your maximum intrinsic value to 21 million USD by carrying 50 kg rhodium instead of gold.

>>34194 Has it occurred to you yet that most of us don't even have 100k?

>>34195 Yes, the real meaning of a "cashless society" is the majority being poor with no money, being dominated by a .000001% superrich elite. The reason the majority somehow became poor as fuarrrk is because they didn't realize their money is being stolen from them through inflation, taxes, bail-ins, arbitrary seizures, equity fraud, fractional reserve banking and usury. It's like trying to fill a leaking bucket, without plugging the hole. If you actually want to have 100k, you would first need to acquire it in a currency that doesn't automatically decrease in value over time.

Abolition of money.

>>33728 Stupidest thing I've ever read. Hope it was a joke

>>34203 This is the best post. Bartering and Gift Economy or bust.

>>33997 gdpr is a pretty wide-covering thing, i like to hate on the eu and all, but gdpr is something that they did truly great.

>>34313 Seems good in theory but isn't practical at all. Say all you have to trade is sheep, and you need my sugar. But I have a deal worked out with my brother to only take his sheep. In this scenario you are not getting any sugar. "Oh well I will just go find someone else with sugar." Well you could have had my sugar, if we had some kind of currency. Money is just efficient and there is nothing inherently wrong with it. The problem is the huge society and all the shenanigans with money that happens out of me, the sugar farmer, and you the sheep framers control.

>>34544 There is no legitimate reason someone would want money instead of the commodity they actually want. If they want sheep, then they want sheep only, not money. Money is a means to an end. It is an unnecessary intermediate step for trading, therefore it is an inefficiency. With modern communications and computers, it would be trivial to arrange multiparty exchanges without money. You could easily calculate how much of each commodity you need to give to each member, in order to get what you want. If you have 3 parties, 1 wants sheep for sugar, 1 wants sugar for labor, 1 wants labor for sheep, then you could do a 3-way swap. This scales up extremely well, because finding a valid combination of trades increases with the number of options. This would completely eliminate the financial system, and would also be more efficient.

>>34313 Barter is an unrealistic fantasy that has never existed in substantial form for most of human history.

>>34556 >arrange multiparty exchanges without money You mean like the current banking system? I know they put dollar signs by the prices but it's not "money" in the traditional sense, it's just numbers in the computer. >You could easily calculate how much of each commodity you need to give to each member, in order to get what you want Yes, I can imagine the algorithm. First you'd have people assign each commodity a point value in some made-up unit like ollarsday, then you'd let people pick out what they want and how many ollarsday they think it's worth compared to all the other stuff listed and also list what they have to trade, and then the system would decide who gets what. Of course, to keep people honest you'd have to keep track of how much people send and received to make sure they didn't get two sheep for a cup of flour, so you'd want some sort of counter of ollarsday, we'll call it an accountyay. And maybe people don't trust you to keep track of that, so you'd want a third party entity to keep track of those numbers like an ankbay. So you take your ollarsday and deposit them in your ankbay accountyay and you use them to buy soykaf on ebay.

>>34579 Any sort of money system is effectively an IOU note. The person receiving money is getting a potentially worthless guarantee that they will get the resource they want. But why bother with sheep <-> money <-> sugar, then you could just get sheep <-> sugar? Cut out the middleman and you increase efficiency. >>34558 The standard interaction in nature is the strong take from the weak, because might makes right. Humans are no exception, human instincts have evolved just to resist being dominated. Barter represents the logical conclusion of this, being a voluntary, equivalent exchange between equals.

>>34624 >Any sort of money system is effectively an IOU note That's a feature you're not obligated to use. It is perfectly legal to spend every dollar you get immediately, and then you don't have to worry about it being "potentially worthless". You'd be a fool to do that though, since the less-time-sensitive nature of money is an incredibly nice feature. Suppose you have ten tons of pomegranates right now and you want to eat potatoes in January. Your pomegranates are going to be rotten by that time, so you're going to have to trade them now for something or other and then hope you can find a potato farmer that wants whatever you invested come January. So your five thousand rolls of toilet paper or whatever it is you traded your pomegranates for just becomes money that is worse in almost every way.

>>34624 >why bother with sheep <-> money <-> sugar, then you could just get sheep <-> sugar? Because you might not want anything the sugar guy has to offer. Or you might not want sugar now. And the problem with individualized IOU notes is what if the holder dies, or moves away and you can't track him down? Money was invented precisely because people needed to trade with soldiers who are liable to do both of those things.

>>34872 >the less-time-sensitive nature of money is an incredibly nice feature. It is the worst possible feature for an IOU note, allowing the unlimited, perpetual accumulation of wealth. It distorts the reality that actual resources like food or energy cannot be accumulated, let alone by a single party. If they could, no one would have any food or energy to consume except for the richest .000001% elite. The unrestricted accumulation of wealth is how two equals become master and slave. Over time, one party loses and another party gains, until one party loses everything and the other gains everything, at which point it remains until the society collapses. In a sustainable, traditional society, your value is what you can produce, not what you can accumulate from others. If you only produce sheep, then your wealth can and should only be that much.

>>34914 >It distorts the reality that actual resources like food or energy cannot be accumulated Sure they can, just get you one of these puppies. Holds 1900000 bushels, enough to supply wheat to a town of 10000 average americans for 60 years. Ok, maybe it wouldn't keep that long, but there are plenty of things you could hoard that would last. I get the problem you're describing, but I don't think it's really a problem with money. In reality, rich people don't generally own a lot of money. Owning money in the long term just loses to inflation. What they do own are corporations. Corporations are like a check valve for money, where the corporation feeds a stream of dividends and capital gains to the stockholders but shields the stockholders from any liability when the corporation is found to have been dumping toxic waste in the river. Meanwhile Joe Blow goes to pound town for fishing that river without a license.

>>34940 The steel silo alone would rust to dust long before that time. Preserving food for that period of time requires active refrigeration, humidity control, vacuum sealing, all of which require an active industry. Even canned goods decay without being opened. Selling fractions of a fictional person is quite possibly the only thing more retarded than the state. At least establishing a state actually requires fighting a real war to conquer territory.

>>33302 I tend to carry a good bit of cash. I have these recurring dreams about looking in my wallet, and out of the thousand or so dollars in there, only one or two hundreds even look real. There's $200 bills in there with celebrities on them, hand drawn $3 bills on notebook paper, etc. Sometimes they're in the wallet, or sometimes I remember I got them as change from some merchant, but didn't pay enough attention when I received it. Maybe I got it at an ATM machine and I'm just left there hold fake money after my account has been debited.

>>34624 >why bother with sheep <-> money <-> sugar, then you could just get sheep <-> sugar? Because sheep guy has all the sugar he needs. He needs corn, and you've got sugar, so you go to the corn guy. Corn man needs rope. Rope man needs door knobs. Door knob man needs sugar. Now you are at sugar -> door knobs -> rope -> corn -> sheep. Instead of needing a long network of bartering pals, you can do all your trading directly, with money. Bartering is the inefficent approach most times. Also, money is fungible. All $20 bills are worth exactly the same thing. Sheep and sugar are not. Some sugar is white, some is brown, some is cane sugar, some is beet sugar. Sugar has different value to different people.

>>33636 Wasnt here for a while, comets/asteroids, whatever. Big rock hits planet, climate goes bust. End of last ice age is linked to one for example. We are due for the next impact and there's minimal funding to detect/prevent it. Several were detected too late to do anything about them and merely passed us out of sheer luck. Our entire civ can go bust overnight. Theres also the interesting idea that the historical obsession with astrology comes from people remembering the world going to soykaf after seeing big rock in sky. When your entire world burns you certainly will attribute some importance to watching the sky after that for a possible next event. >>34558 False, self-contained villages dont even barter and they exist to this day. You help each other on a simple implicit agreement of you help when needed and the village helps you when you need help. Money is only needed to pay taxes for which some of the goods are sold in town but thats it. >>34101 Another fool, the point of fiat is you can print at will cause the real production value is 0. Rare metals are not fiat, they are better because the production has a real cost and the resource is limited. You can even see historically how econ went to soykaf the moment they turned to fiat. All your work is a joke in front of a guy going money printer goes brrr. The game got fundamentally rigged.

>>35984 >False, self-contained villages dont even barter and they exist to this day. You help each other on a simple implicit agreement of you help when needed and the village helps you when you need help. That sounds like communism. Those people ought to look out for themselves. They're not responsible for their neighbours' bad decisions.

>>35989 Nobody is forced unlike communism. You can decide not help, you just wont receive help either in return. Because a lot of the work is very time limited by seasons it goes however much better if you cooperate. So you help 9x other families building their barn but in return you get 20 people to help building yours. And because you have done it more often you also got more experience and get better results.

>>34624 Bartering is extremely inefficient and cannot sustain any large economy, how exactly would you pay for a house, car, or taxes?

>>35989 It's not communism it's community survival. Basically some farmers gathered in a village clinging on to survive. If that's your definition of communism than i can only ask to elaborate your opignon. You help other during bad times so that during bad times you get helped. Bad times will come to you sooner or later. You can be your lone wolf and go under when you have bad luck or you can be saved by your community. A longer version on why such a community dependency existed and the somewhat other kind of economy of villages is well described on this blog: https://acoup.blog/2020/07/24/collections-bread-how-did-they-make-it-part-i-farmers/ "The Banqueting the Yields" explains that survival strategy rather well.

>>34624 >Any sort of money system is effectively an IOU note. >Cut out the middleman and you increase efficiency. The whole point of currency backed by a powerful and dependable entity is efficiency. If you look at the USSR they bartered with the capitalist world and it was a massive headache for the corporations that did it. See Pepsi getting paid in obsolete warships. I think I've also heard about payments in vodka.

>>33780 >There is only one deception, and that is something that is literally worthless has worth. Any fiat currency is completely worthless, and will inevitably collapse from being glorified Ponzi scheme which lasts on average 40 years. Not even the worst kings and emperors in history issued fiat. As long competent people are running the federal reserve fiat money is fine. Given recent history and especially the past 4 years it's questionable if we can protect the integrity of the fed indefinitely. Commodity backed currencies aren't immune to issues, you simply don't know about them because you've never experienced them. Much like how all our favorite niche politicians live without sin by virtue of never getting enough power to fuarrrk anything up.

>>36013 That's cool and all but how do you expect 7 billion people to survive on such a system?

>>36015 They are now printing money for a hedge fund that distributes it among friends while the plebs drown. What integrity have they left?