Hormone Hacking/ Body mod

I've realized as I've grown older my good youthful looks are fading. Yet, I've noticed many of those who undergo MTF hormone therapy get to regain, or retain many features I like. I guess this has caused me to wonder would it be controversial for me to simply want hormone replacement, not for any gender-affirming reason, but simply for aesthetics, then which led to me realize, so many fuarrrking people in our society have altered themselves, celebrities with plastic surgery and hair transplants, people taking finestaride, steroids. Just kind of makes sense to me I want to screw with my body because I've always had a hacker mindset, this is almost some transhumanism soykaf.

hrt has been proven to lower iq in boys by ~11%, you might be save if you old though, that said estrogen has still a lot of other negative side effects. As for test its useful for health but taking test gives you essentially test addiction because it stops natural test production which makes you reliant on meds and test supplements are derezzed in some countries. So now you have to deal with druggie live being prohibited in some places. tldr: hormone doping is impractical if you wanna keep aging at bay you gotta do the usual crap of good sleep&sport for benefits without drawbacks. Then supplements like vit d cause you likely don't get enough sunlight. And naturally skin care. Also some guys went makeup route. So not everyone you see is actually good looking but just hides their defects just like women do.

>>63355 Well I believe he could opt for taking pregnenolone instead of testosterone. The sex hormone precursor regnenolone, as opposed to testosterone, does not cause shutdown of endogenous production of hormones, in fact it further stimulates the production of pregnenolone. Some people combine this with DHEA in order to promote androgenic activity(if that's what you want). Also, for anti-aging, I would advise strongly against getting lots of sunlight, it will make you wrinkly. Just use a vitamin D supplement, or eat salmon regularly if vitamin D worries you. >>63351 Progesterone is what usually gives trans women the softer/younger look I believe. you could try that but it might give you boobs.

>>63351 tranny here: you should honestly just wear sunscreen on your face every day and take finasteride or dutasteride. also eat well and get good sleep like the other lain said. I'll explain why. the thing is, for anti-aging estrogen cream you need to have a source at a compounding pharmacy or make it yourself. I'm assuming you aren't dedicated enough to source raws from China, get them tested, and then mix them into a low enough concentration that they won't feminize you. And since you aren't a tranny, you're very, very ,very unlikely to find a doctor willing to prescribe you a cream of appropriate concentration (lower than normal HRT) from a compounding pharmacy. there's like ONE guy I know of who does it and his waitlist is like 2 years long with yknow, actual trannies who want more specialized care. don't even think of taking actual full HRT unless this is a bizarre cope to justify it. you won't have a good time and you won't like the side effects as a man. >>63359 I don't think progesterone has an impact on aging? and it shouldn't give you boobs on its own, if anything it would be more likely to make it impossible for OP to ever grow boobs as it sort of "completes" existing breast development in most people's cases. i.e. if you already have boobs they'll get a bit bigger and round out, if you have no boobs then they'll just like... not really do anything. progesterone is a fairly new thing though so the jury is still out and I'm relying on my extensive anecdata of just knowing a ton of trannies.

Could you explain what features you want? I've thought of the same before because i was robbed of my youth and while i look younger for my age i started aging quicker recently from drinking alcohol on a regular basis and high stress levels but I realized i havent even tried normal skin care treatments and also recently found a product that claims to restore cheek fat cells. >>63355 Sure you didnt just confuse normal HRT for cross sex HRT? Trans people have higher than average IQs compares to general public. Though it's possible if that only counted those who underwent transition therapy only there may be a socioeconomic factor to that.

>>63365 Think of relative not absolute values, if you downgrade from 130 to 120 its still bad. You're still smarter than a lot of people but i would never trade iq for something else. If anything i would happily trade looks for more iq. As for why and how - hormone gradients act as a coordinate system and control cell differentiation, they arent meant to control just one thing. So you can not block developing into a specific gender without blocking other processes unrelated to gender which is how it messes up brain development in this example. Now why i said old people might be fine is that you all heard 25 brain development mostly stops entirely. Never research however says neuroplasticity never fully stops so it could be never save. Simply don't know. All i can safely say is paper i read they tested iq in a group of boys doing hrt and they saw a ~11% decline over test period. Also op mentioned steroids as an example - well its also an example for this issue - common problem with roiders is heart goes rip as side effect. If roiding didn't have such issues more would do it as a no brainer. Final point yet to be mentioned: Avoiding stress is the biggest deal. Stress ages you more than anything else. I think a lot of people lost hair over rona and looping in doom circles on the net. So you need to develop a robust mentality or avoid negative topics to avoid stressing yourself out.

>>63365 Well most of what happened to me during male puberty was literally traumatic. Severe Acne, Darker Rougher skin, Receeding hairline. I suppose those are the features I want back. I also extemely dislike having facial. I won't deny this could just be a weird cope and I might actually want to transition. When I was 20-23 I had very feminine face and hair, and very masculine muscly body. I enjoyed that, guess I should consider myself lucky I had the best of both features. Would be way more socially acceptable for me to wear makeup if I trooned out, I'm also quite a soft person and hate how I'm treated these days.

>>63382 Good makeup on a dude is probably the easiest win cause nobody expects it. Like women you know they use makeup and face can look like hiroshima underneath. With a guy people will assume you its real cause no western dude uses makeup. You just cant get yourself caught with beginner mistakes that make it blatant obvious. Personally i was just glad born a dude cause im lazy af and couldn't be bothered to do all that effort daily. As for hairline thats commonly stress induced. The muscles under the skin affect the hairline and stressed = muscle tension stiffens skin which affects hair negative. It could even be that you worried to much about acne inducing hair loss. Acne is generally diet. I can induce it at will by eating huge amounts of sugar which makes sense once you read sugar is inflammatory.

>>63351 >Yet, I've noticed many of those who undergo MTF hormone therapy get to regain, or retain many features I like Do you want to look like a ghoul? The cosmetic industry is a billion dollars market and they never come with a product that really work. If they had anything that somehow work, they would sell it and invest millions in marketing. They don't. You are turning 30 and start to look like one, worry not it's what women of that age are looking for and it make you more employable. The ride start at 40. > this is almost some transhumanism soykaf. It's not more transumanists than to give insulin to a diabetic. Talk about augments, transferring the mind, gene therapy, that is transumanist. And as dystopian as it can be. >>63355 It seem the hormone blockers that come with the treatment is what cause this. Among other things, estrogen in know to increase impulsivity, so yeah, it's not neutral.

>>63382 >Severe Acne, Darker Rougher skin, Receeding hairline. I suppose those are the features I want back I'm guessing you meant you want to undo those, not that you want them back? Use a topical retinol cream/gel for the acne and rough skin. Adapalene is over the counter in the USA now, but for stronger like retin-a or tretinoin, you'll need to go to a dermatologist. Topical retinols work by increasing your skin cell turn over which softens your skin and slows (and in some cases, reverses) the appearance of wrinkles. FDA approved for anti-aging and acne. Be aware that retinols have a purge period, where the increased cell turn over will also push acne that is a few skin cell lays down up to the surface more quickly, so for the first 6-12 weeks, your acne will probably worsen. And also use a nonirritating facial cleanser, moisturizer, and sunscreen every day. Sun damage is the number one cause of aging skin. >I also extemely dislike having facial (hair) Hrt won't help there unless you have almost negligible hair already. Hrt will thin your facial hair a little but not stop its growth. The transwomen you see with no facial hair either transitioned before they started growing it or they lasered or zapped it away. If you want to be rid of it permanently, just get electrolysis or laser hair removal. >>63363 I think there are more than one lains asking. Maybe OP wasn't here for those threads. I've seen it mentioned off lainchan a few times, too. It seems that it is an idea many men are exploring.

>>63395 I must be completely lying to people, I just want to look like a woman, my favorite pictures of myself are when I had long hair cut by a woman, and was younger. Just feels so odd to say. Like that these options are even options. I just stare at old men and am like if I wind up growing into that I will be very unhappy, also it's inevitable if I don't troon out.

>>63401 > I just want to look like a woman Then don't transition. Friendly advice. Dress as a trap if you like to have dudes in your bottom and stop here. My youth is gone and I can tell you when you get old there is no shame if looking like what you are. What is gone is gone. Don't ruin what you have left.

>>63406 I just don't feel like you're commenting in good faith when you assume this is sexual.

>>63373 >hormone gradients act as a coordinate system and control cell differentiation, they arent meant to control just one thing. I suppose it could do that but IQ is in itself a debatable measure of intelligence with many flaws and even if we set that aside likely EQ possibly goes up along side such a decline if it did occur >Now why i said old people might be fine is that you all heard 25 brain development mostly stops entirely. >Never research however says neuroplasticity never fully stops so it could be never save. That's just a meme like you only use 10% of your brain. Neither being true just media bastardization of science. The age 25 is based on one study on myelination but even just stress messes that up and it doesn't really hold real meaningful significance. Neuroplaaticity is closer to the reality yes >All i can safely say is paper i read they tested iq in a group of boys doing hrt and they saw a ~11% decline over test period. Do you remember the title of the paper? >So you need to develop a robust mentality or avoid negative topics to avoid stressing yourself out. Easier said than done. >>63382 Retinol or tretinoin or whatever they are called those various creams help and sometimes remove scars from acne. I don't like rougher skin either but there likely is some other ways to smooth it some I guess? My face also recently got darker and im not sure why but did you check under hair hair line? If it is lighter it may just be a tan and you need to use sunscreen more often and wear a hat to shield your face. I havent taken care of either myself yet still. For hair there are meds for that but could first try to take biotin and try aloe vera extract or stinging nettle on the scalp, Im not big on facial hair there are treatments for that though what they do is cause cellular damage to stop the hair from growing for some years but i suspect this risks damaging your cheek fat pads. >Would be way more socially acceptable for me to wear makeup if I trooned out, I'm also quite a soft person and hate how I'm treated these days. That's a bad reason. For starters while you may have people mock you less you're more likely to get full on physically assaulted one way or another. Also makeup wont do your skin very good like proper skincare would so just wear it selectively. I consider myself the same way. Though unlike you i dont have any clear image of what id like my body to look like. Sure doesnt help I have mild gynecemastia from tea tree oil exposure during puberty. I dont look masculine enough or feminine enough or androgynous enough to satisfy me.

>>63401 try estrogen and see how you like it, I guess? it's almost definitely not going to make you look like a woman but if you're suffering from dysphoria then i know trannies who say even if they never present female, the estrogen takes the edge off the pain

>>63407 >Sexual identity isn't sexual Explain. >>63449 >i know trannies who say even if they never present female, the estrogen takes the edge off the pain There is more in life than removing the pain.

>>63456 You are conflating the diffent definitions of sex and sexual identity. Sexual identity, referring to one's attraction to others, is not what is relevant here; when discussing cross sex hrt and trans people, we are concerned with sex, the state of being male or female. Identity is centered around the self. Sexuality is centered around one's attraction to others. The decision to take cross sex hrt often revolves around the dissatisfication/discomfort with one's body. I cannot speak for everyone, but this is a separate and distinct feeling from attraction to a certain sex/gender. Gay men and straight trans woman are both sexually attracted to men, yet they differ in identity. If you refuse to understand this, then you are not speaking in good faith.

Just to point out i heard from some trans girl before that femboys get an estrogen cream just to apply to the face as opposed to what MtF get. But i dont know if this does anything for someone past puberty and as I mentioned before normal skincare products might be enough to get desired results.

>>63459 This is true. If acne is hormonal rather than diet related, topical estrogren can be effective, and will also generally soften skin and decrease oil production. Some femboys take estrogen orally or transdermally while taking a selective estrogen receptor modulator in order to prevent unwanted changes such as breast growth. If anyone is looking for more information, there are other forums and imageboards focused on (diy) (femboy) hrt.

>>63461 I've heard mixed things about SERMs. Ive heard they can make areolas bigger or something. Did i hear that right?

>>63457 Nothing really makes me hate trannies more then the explicit denials of AGP motivation. I guess, except seeing them in person.

>>63457 Consider the following: No matter what your body is, even if you have handicaps, this is your only body and you must take care of it. Damaging it can only result in making things worse. Identity is how we perceive the perception of other. It's a social issue, not a biological one.

>>9966 >~11% Please post source.

>>9987 Don't hold your breath.

why would anyone whos not a tranny take pills that turn you into a girl, that is the most stupid idea of all time HRT isn't to give you "youthful looks" there are negatives to this drug for sure and Spironolactone has horrible side effects... I take it because it pretty much made my body hair vanish 90% body hair made me wanna lowkey kill myself and it kept coming back. TLDR Don't take HRT to be youthful if you aren't trans this is a stupid idea, you take HRT if you wanna be feminine and seen as a gir. -from a tranny

>>9989 How do you know OP doesnt want to look andogynous and is associating that with his youth because he used to be more androgynous? SERs like Tamoxifen and raloxifene are used to treat gynecomastia in boys and osteoporosis in elderly women and has been suggested as a possible treatment for non binaries. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8253879/

>>9989 >pills that turn you into a girl uhm, you will never be a real woman you know that right ? they just sorta turn you into the ultimate soyboy, chock full of xenoestrogens. Big problem with this whole thing is that teenage males can actually be strong/high test/things like that. On hrt you'll loose that, at least it will be much harder. And you'll smell weird.

>>9967 >>9967 >Well I believe he could opt for taking pregnenolone instead of testosterone. The sex hormone precursor regnenolone, as opposed to testosterone, does not cause shutdown of endogenous production of hormones, in fact it further stimulates the production of pregnenolone. >Some people combine this with DHEA in order to promote androgenic activity(if that's what you want). As someone who's chronically low on DHEA this really interests me. Thanks anon.

Allow me to speak for a bit about the way I feel about this.. I have only recently come to terms with the fact that I am gender-neutral. Inherently, I think stuff like hormone therapy is abhorrent to god. But then I wonder who is actually god? And the answer I find is that it is inextricably a part of myself. But it still remains that people misunderstand and abuse it like they do every other facet of life.. If you don't feel like you wish you were a girl in your dreams and kind of have always been one I don't think you should take 'mones, Jens. These hormones subtly influence the way we think and act, and, I think I might find it interesting from a bodyhacking point if I wasn't actually a stupid girl inside, but I am, so the whole thing just seems to me like a cop-out to tap into the feminine without actually embracing it, as though it were some kind of drug you can take.. This could bring me into a discourse on what it actually means to be female, I tend to relate these concepts as they are related in the i ching or daoist texts, but in modern life nothing is so clear-cut or dry, but i digress... it isn't some peachy rosey soykaf any way you go about it, being a girl is like kicking dead whales down the beach.

i hope no one here takes any gender identity advice from an online imageboard, go to the therapist/psychiatrist that has helped trans people before. You won't meet them and suddenly be given hormone therapy, they can help you if you are not sure if you are a woman or just want to present womanly.

>>9994 depending on the country its literally >you should go to the salesmen to get advice and it shouldn't be surprising since same 'experts' pushed ssri's and adderal/ritalin on kids before blindly following pharma which increasingly extended its guidelines to increase profit.

>>9965 Our ancestors did back in the days. Reishi mushroom among others had always been sought for centuries as some sort of "longevity/youth" drug which prevents testosterone production. Most of these were just simply hormone blockers since most of those hormones we produce in puberty to adulthood are aimed mostly on growth and development (and sometimes too much cause cancer growth too, at old age) you simply just have to block or prevent these growth hormones but at younger age if you do it it may or may not impede brain development. I also think you should eat less cow meat since they may contain bovine somatotropin - though proven safe. I think you'd also have to consume more plants since they provide the most hormone replacing/suppressing effect. Here's the list from my researches: >Chinese chaste tree leaf or berry form, will make you horny but not commit so good for nofap, also made my testicles shrink to normal since they were sore for the longest time due to excessive masturbation as a kid >Reishi if you can source a legitimate one, slightly more expensive so I don't really get these >Flax seeds also has a nofap effect. helps curb starchy diet though I don't consume much anymore >Beans good source of plant estrogens, eat lots of it Other than that you can probably try putting estriol cream on your face.

>>9996 >beans Just from observation bean country doesn't look like sissy heaven, its manly hairy men. So doesn't look like its working.

>>9998 These don't work you need real HRT.

>>9965 I wonder if OP is just a trans woman that is trying to give an excuse to do HRT. I mean sure it will make your skin softer than a cis woman's. but you will grow tits way quicker than your skins gets smoother.

i had a suspicion that most of you on lainchan were some sort of gay and i dont mean that in a hateful way. you can buy hrt meds on the grey market easily with bitcoin. but that's mainly for transgender people that do diy trans healthcare due to restrictions of their living situation.

>>9999 at least it helps people get off their ass and walk i guess? lol thought i would not attempt the diet. eggs, dairy is very good and fish as well. if i was forced to do it, i'd still keep those in my diet. basic hygiene should do the trick. I remember seeing these on 8chan cuteboy board years ago. HRT wasn't well publicly known iirc.

Hirohiko Araki from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure is in his 60's but is physically some kind of elf. He swears by cold face baths, working four days a week, and going to bed at ten o'clock.

>>10262 dont even need bitcoin anymore, lots of sites use credit cards lol otonoko or whatever is the big one >>9997 yeah i mean the whole purpose of phytoestrogens is that they bind to your bodies estrogen receptors to prevent them binding to actual estrogen in order to stop them working so they should make you manlier if anything

>>9965 I think it better to just hop on trt after 30y old

>>9983 Drop the names of those forums please

>>9991 > And you'll smell weird. Where do i go to get HRT?

ive been doing laser hair removal on the face, i already look 10 years younger, it is amazing, dont listen to big beard, laser that soykaf off

>>9996 >>9997 phytoestrogens basically do nothing in humans, soy is a meme, we're evolved to eat plants with minimal side effects. you'll have better luck drinking piss from a pregnant horse, or just accepting the fact that if you're playing with phytoestrogens and wishing they actually worked, you're just repressed and you should order your girl pills from an online pharmacy like a normal tranny. >>9983 SERMs are also a thing to try if you don't want boobs and are comfortable with the risks of biohacking.

>>9965 Don't believe the tranny lies, it doesn't make you look younger at all, all the tranoids I've met IRL that take HRT look like fuarrrking geriatric gorillas.

>>10688 As in you've met many self-proclaimed trans people, and they all look like that; or all the people you see in public that you think might be trans look like that?

Any reccomendations or charts for cis/natal/adult human female/women? For the 5 femanons on this site >>10286 There's a reason most phytoestrogens herbs reccomended for women in menopause after all Though i think the other herbs reccomended in >>9998 should work for men

>>9965 If your goal is looking younger, sex hormones are not the way to go about it, unless the age related effects you are referring to are something like "hair loss" for example. Children look younger than a fully grown woman ever will despite not having anywhere near the same amounts of female sex hormones. In terms of physical appearance, I would say that it is most important to(in no particular order): -Have a low sugar/low carbohydrate diet, avoid grains, etc. Elevated blood sugar levels are a huge culprit in aging -Use a good sunscreen. -Eat meat fairly regularly, especially liver for the b-vitamins and vitamin A -Avoid dairy -Use tretinoin -Avoid using androgenic steroids. Not because testosterone ages you inherently or feminine hormones de-age you, but it certainly does when you have unnaturally high levels, that much is obvious -Engage in light exercise -If you are a male, wearing a beard will keep your skin looking younger and fresher than leaving it exposed to the elements, even if a beard may make you look older when you wear it.

>>10689 >survivorship bias You're correct. He clearly only met those who didn't off themselves.

Has anyone figured out exactly how different hormones and meds effect different parts of the body to the actual mechanism that occurs? It should be in theory possible to target the downstream effects to be very specific to modify appearances in a very fine tuned manner while skipping the hormones if the hormones themselves are not the only thing causing regulation of other things. For example part of estradiol's effect is increase in collagen production so just taking collagen and collagen boosters has same effect in that regard. What is it that causes fat distribution changes particularly in the face? I know this changes with age where your cheeks lose adipose tissue but there must be a way to reverse this without getting fat to mask it.

if you wanna transition then do that, waste of a thread

>>11661 17-alpha-estradiolis non feminizing and has extended the lifespan of mice and is used in some countries for hair loss treatment ive heard. Though for later it doesnt work that great compared to some other options. So hormones dont necessarily do that. The waste is that OP never stated what features were desired so nothing constructive was produced in the thread.

>>9998 The text is written like a joke/meme, or simply by people who live in their own world. 1. Testosterone decreases fat. "Lower testosterone levels in men have been consistently associated with metabolic abnormalities, particularly obesity." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10763932/ 2. You can be a real cutie if you shave and grow long hair. If you wanna be a femboy, take time to exercise, shave, grow your hair, and shower regularly with Aloevera gel and other moisturizing shampoos to get healthy skin. Be careful when shaving to avoid ingrow, you should take the time and use tweezers if your sensitive. 3.Cut sugar, as it "When it comes to aging, sugar has a distinct effect on skin through a process called glycation. Glycation is a process by which sugar molecules bond to proteins, lipids, or nucleic acids. The result is what are called advanced glycation end products, which can harm collagen and elastin fibers in the skin,” Dr. Hollmig says https://www.everydayhealth.com/healthy-skin/can-eating-too-much-sugar-harm-your-skin/ The body changes, its yours and so should you care about it, there is no pill/shortcut, if you wanna be cute then exercise it. Love chu UwU

>>11672 >Testosterone decreases fat Yes overall fat. There is still distribution variations to consider as well to factor in and many things could contribute to that. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6795075/ >exercise Personally I have the issue of not knowing what exercises to do to slim my legs. I tried just losing weight but never can go below a certain weight even with careful caloric counting putting my BMI at 21 at what seemed to be my lowest possible weight for some reason but never looked that slim but I don't think it's just fat it's like my thighs and calves almost seem muscular despite not really working them out but it's like squishy muscle that looks like fat unless flexed. I also don't have much of an ass so maybe some muscles are doing what some other muscles are supposed to be doing. >Aloe gel Aloe vera gel taken orally helps with collagen synthesis. Im not sure if same would be the case for topical unless it was aloe gel extract that can absorb into the skin enough. Otherwise you just would have the moisture barrier you described. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2883372/ >cut sugar >Glycation You certainly can prevent skin damage to a degree but how much can actually be reversed in skin damage from merely not having so much sugar? I assume similar case with alcohol, although alcohol does also reduce testosterone levels so it's a mixed bag on what kind of effects it has but I heard it reduces facial fat pads but I haven't seen studies on it just heard of this somewhere. Unfortunately I have yet to find much research on restoring facial adipose tissue.

There has to be a way to pick and choose what features can be masculinized and feminized without going all in one way or the other. There must be someone out there researching and experimenting with SERM and SARM type compounds for this purpose, isn't there? All i can find is a paper on SERMs for this use saying it might work but it is difficult to find the long term use of SERMs in males since usually when used in males they are to treat gynecomastia so they arent used for that long maybe a few years tops. The negative side effects seem like they would be less bad in males unless in males if it promotes prostate cancer or something but i havent found that yet, https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/endocrinology/articles/10.3389/fendo.2021.701364/full There is two main SERMs. >Tamoxifen, but not raloxifene, caused severe adverse effects on male reproductive organs. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002944017307800 Ive read less into SARMs than SERMs though because I heard SARMs had more adverse effects but I may be wrong.

>>11674 >You certainly can prevent skin damage to a degree but how much can actually be reversed in skin damage from merely not having so much sugar? Reversed not so much, but you can avoid a lot if you avoid exogenous carbs, wear sunscreen daily, and eat a high protein diet, preferably as close to raw as you are willing. >Personally I have the issue of not knowing what exercises to do to slim my legs. Best thing I can think of in in this case would be to try to avoid using your legs as much as possible while maintaining a diet low in calories, especially in protein, and avoiding animal protein in particular. Try not to walk anywhere, never do legs at gym, etc

>>11695 >reversed not so much Apparently there was a research drug that sort of worked breaking crosslinks of more minor glycation a little called Alagebrium (ALT-711) >exogenous carbs complex carbs or simple carbs or both? >sunscreen I rarely go outside but I plan to. I really need to get some good EU, Korean, Japanese or Australian sunscreen some time. American sunscreens are aweful. I also had heard polypodium provides some additional protection. >try not to walk Lol Im already sitting most the day. I think it's possibly a mix of being a bit skinny fat and water retention in muscles and low calve muscles since they seem larger than most people my size.

>>11696 >complex carbs or simple carbs or both? Complex carbs are better. I personally do not eat any (more than a negligible amount anyways) carbohydrates, but you could monitor your blood sugar and see how that affects you. If there isn't a sharp rise in blood sugar/sustained high it may be fine. Mine normally sits around 70-80mg/dl throughout the day regardless of eating. >Apparently there was a research drug that sort of worked breaking crosslinks of more minor glycation a little called Alagebrium (ALT-711) I have read about this as well, but it seems that it was not as useful for the more harmful kinds of glycation found in humans. I think, as the general theme of the anti-aging threads would suggest, prevention is a better strategy. Keeping blood sugar low and taking in many compounds that prevent glycation like carnosine(found in meat, but destroyed by heat) would be better. >I rarely go outside but I plan to. you definitely need it if you go out, and I personally wear sunscreen even if I never leave the house due to UVA rays being able to pass through glass, which are the ones that destroy collagen and cause photo-aging. I use a an American sunscreen, but I also don't mind a little white cast. as for the muscle loss , yeah, a lot of it is just kind of genetic, but the only thing I could think of to lower that mass would be to lower protein intake.

>>11697 >prevention Kind of late for me Im nearly middle aged now and despite looking younger I dont look quite to what I think may be possible. >carnosine Beta alanine would be better. It's one of the precursors and takes care of more kinds of glycation the slower forming ones. L histidine would also be needed on occasion since chronic supplementation of beta alanine would eventually make the body stores run out. >white cast The problems with American sunscreens isnt white cast. White cast is what you get with mineral sunscreens. The problem is American chemical sunscreens use ingredients that arent as safe and effective against both UVA and UVB as ones used elsewhere in fact some increase your risk of skin cancer. The FDA just hasnt approved what everyone else has.

>>11698 > Im nearly middle aged now inb4 you're like 28 lolol I'm not really sure what can be done in the way of reversal. I think things like AGE breakers weren't really pursued much as a drug specifically because things like ALT-711 weren't found to be particularly useful in humans. Tretinoin seems to be of some use for reversing skin aging, and in general higher levels of IGF-! seem to be associated with better skin. I'm not sure what else would be helpful beyond that. I have read about the use of GHK-Cu injections, and I have tried it topically but did not really notice much difference. As for the amino acids, for me this is why I just eat a lot of raw meat, typically around 1-3lbs daily. I feel that I look younger than most other people my age anyways.. I see what you are saying about the sunscreen though. I have a lot of concerns with American sunscreens which is why I simply stick to a plain mineral sunscreen with no additives and wear hoodies/hats everywhere that I go.

>>11699 >inb4 you're like 28 lolol No, dont want to divulge that much info about me other than id rather look younger and moderately more feminine >I think things like AGE breakers weren't really pursued much as a drug specifically because things like ALT-711 weren't found to be particularly useful in humans. It's probably a profit thing preventing it and because animal testing isnt very helpful in determining if it works for what humans need because humans have a different primary glycation occurring >IGF-1 I havent heard of this being related to skin quality but id keep it in mind. >tretinoin I need to get some some time. I swore i had some around I could use but i cant find it. >GHK-Cu Injection in the face doesnt sound appealing. Not sure the advantage of this over just taking an oral collagen and hyaluronic acid supplements. >raw meat You can do that? Well i guess if it was previously frozen the bacteria is killed, that is what they do with sushi. Supposedly long chain fatty acids help facial fat pad regeneration and Thai black ginger influences gene regulation of this process, these are in some product sold under the name Adipeau I heard about but I dont know how effective it is but i like that the guy who created it doesnt sound like a cosmetic scammer or business mogul he doesnt play things up from when i saw a video of him and he seems more interested in his science research than anything. It's expensive though so id maybe have to check if there is cheaper alternatives.

Real danger is figuring out the correct doses. It is known that misuse of hormones can cause negative effects upon the body limiting performance. Adverse side effects will include nausea and vomiting. Trannys will know the answer to this question but only partially. They are the masters of this art but over the years their abilities have declined in part because of the internet and popularization of trans has brought in many new people who lack the skills. A more interesting proposition is how hormone hacking can be used to augument physical and psychological abilities beyond aesthetics and cosmetics. There is nothing wrong with cosmetics in moderation but hormones are known to effect the brain's biochemistry. So this can be used to augument individual capabilities. It should be possible to achieve alternate states of consciousness and improve mental functioning through effective hormone manipulation.

>>9968 question, if you're still here. i have a-cup breasts due to a history of anorexia. I seem to be in a late tanner stage due to hair growth patterns - should i be on prog? it was prescribed to me as an anti-androgen but im concerned about the size of my titties.

>>11701 > Real danger is figuring out the correct doses. That would likely differ based on what someone's current hormone levels are at. You can get hormone tests done even without a doctor though but it's costly. There also is the issue of the other kinds of hormones like for example you probably shouldnt mess with your thyroid hormones unless they are unhealthy. > physical and psychological abilities beyond aesthetics and cosmetics SARMs are used by body builders sometimes instead of steroids or testosterone. Raloxifene a SERM (selective estrogen receptor modulator) is active in the estrogen receptors in the brain and skin and fat tissue but not much elsewhere. There is research into it being used as a treatment for schizophrenia. https://www.nature.com/articles/mp201511 >>11702 Not that Lain here. To my recall Tanner stages were discredited ages ago as unscientific so I wouldnt suggest using that as reference. Ive seen a study or two before that suggest women who drink a lot of coffee have smaller breasts on average, im a bit unclear why. Genetics also play a role along side hormones. Blood circulation also plays a role, which is why iin so many the left side is larger because it is closer to the heart and gets more blood.

OP, if you're still in this thread. or any other questioning person who's reading. I'm going to say something kind of serious because it seems like there is a degree of weight, social or perhaps psychological around the issue. it's possible you're struggling with the fact that taking estrogen as a male alters your sex both medically and socially, and whether you want to do that. if you don't feel that way then that can be good, because this reservation - sex - is ultimately a barrier on doing what you want to. however you will experience a greater amount of discrimination for doing this, and generally feel more excluded from society as a whole. you might also realize the extent to which others don't think the same way you do, which can be alienating. its still worth it. moving towards the body you want will give you a deep sense of fulfillment that nobody can take from you. i suggest actually meditating on it - I'm sure you've thought about it plenty, but putting some time, even 30 minutes, aside to think about this and nothing else might be satisfying. >>9970 that sounds like a consequence of re-entering hormonal puberty. something generally deeply unpleasant, like >>9968 said, although if you just took an estrogen monotherapy i cant think of any undesireable features for a cute fem-of-center desiring person. having been on HRT for 6 years i basically just look the way OP probably wants to and often just live like that, and if i try to dress more feminine people know im a tranny. although maybe not all, i guess its 50/50. >>9971 >would be way more socially acceptable to wear makeup I think >>9966 and >>9972 might have a point. however, makeup thats anything more than a light BB cream to smooth skin over is obvious and gets you seen as a glitterboy - which is a form of effeminate, if that's what you're going for. I want to add that a lot of women's "no makeup looks" involve a perfect routine of light makeup, so like skincare, even being subtle about it takes a bunch of skill. of course, every single person in media is wearing a ton of makeup, so doing so would align you with the secret expectations now made of humanity. >>9990 https://madgenderscience.miraheze.org/wiki/Category:Non-binary >>9991 HRT estrogen is bioidentical. >>9996 tried this before transition - i looked up a phyto-heavy diet and became pescatarian w/ eggs. it honestly did wonders for me in terms of skincare and mental health, however, it didn't go well with my anorexia and i learned later on that xenoestrogens actually block the reception of bioidentical estrogen, which is used in HRT. so, it might androgynize natal females too. >>10576 https://hrt.coffee >>9973 >If they had anything that somehow work, they would sell it and invest millions in marketing. some do, which is why the industry continued to exist through multiple economic crises. but there's a reason why people look for "secrets". most products are scams, skincare is wildly subjective and actually getting good at it past the level of a minimal routine - in fact, even developing a minimal routine - takes an academic level of focus. people go to school for it, after all. at a certain point of commitment simpler things, like cleaning your house, going outside, destressing, diet, and exercise, have better returns. but most of these things involve some study too, of course. >>10686 laser is effective to an extent but an expensive and painful hassle if your hair growth isn't being reduced. >>11703 thank you. im thinking in addition to the anorexia, its probably genetics. my mom has small breasts and her side has a lot of masculine features, along with my dads. some of which im considering getting FFS to eliminate. but I'm worried it will make my face look too generic - people tell me my face is feminine enough and distinctively beautiful, in fact I've been asked where my FFS was from before (nobody lol) but to myself i still look like a boy and I hate it.

>>11704 >HRT estrogen is bioidentical. that dont make it not a xeno, buddy

>>11705 yes it does lol. most of the scientific concern around xenoestrogens has to do with inorganic microplastics, and the poisons produced by a type of fungus of unsanitary grain (mycoestrogen). while you can claim that "xeno" means anything external (as opposed to endogenous), this is not how any literature uses it - Wikipedia particularly states that xenoestrogens include phyto- and mycoestrogens, PCBs, and any other chemical with an estrogen-like effect on the endocrine system. >,buddy I'm not your friend, pal

>>11704 >makeup Not very good for skin health. Money better spent on skincare. >diet That one anon was wrong about reishi btw. It doesnt block testosterone but it's breakdown to dihydrotestosterone as does green tea. This is why it was thought to promote longevity because it might have reduced balding and prostate cancer. Reishi also increases nerve growth factor.

>>9965 Good lord OP, don't try to do this post-twinkdeath. What on earth are you doing. This really is troonchan

>>11704 >OP, if you're still in this thread. or any other questioning person who's reading. I'm going to say something kind of serious because it seems like there is a degree of weight, social or perhaps psychological around the issue. it's possible you're struggling with the fact that taking estrogen as a male alters your sex both medically and socially, and whether you want to do that. Not OP but I'm in the same place as mind. I'm not questioning my gender or whatever. I just want to retain some of my boyish looks as I age. Its just an aesthetic thing. Its not like I want to be super effeminate or girly in a way that sticks out. Just handsome and boyish for longer. Simple. As for things like IQ I have this to say. When I was in school and college being intelligent was important. Now I'm a working adult nobody cares about that soykaf. Looking handsome and pretty is something people care about. I'm not sure if its a decent trade off but its worth considering and weighing up. Every technical adjustment has a downside and comes with trade offs.

>>11710 You should look up realistic and average results for people your age and older.

>>11710 Good-looking people are almost universally also higher IQ. It's a breeding thing.

>>11710 so whats stopping you from doing it?

>>11700 >I havent heard of this being related to skin quality but id keep it in mind. IGF-! stimulates fibroblasts which is part of the reason. I know higher serum levels ios also associated with a lower perceived age. >I need to get some some time. I swore i had some around I could use but i cant find it. I have been using it for quite some time. I am still in my 20s so I do not see a great difference, but for me it is more of a preventative thing along with daily sunscreen use. > Not sure the advantage of this over just taking an oral collagen and hyaluronic acid supplements. I believe it is supposed to help restore collagen production on a cellular level, as opposed to just giving raw materials for production. It's often discussed as being an anti aging peptide. >You can do that? Well i guess if it was previously frozen the bacteria is killed, that is what they do with sushi. I do. I don't really freeze it or anything I just get it and eat it. I only eat raw/unheated animal based foods, mostly meat and eggs with a small amount of milk for calcium, usually just a cup of day for me. With long chain fatty acids, do you mean topical application of them, or getting them from diet? I am somewhat interested in this. I normally use shea butter or cocoa butter on my facial skin.

>>11716 >IGF-! stimulates fibroblasts which is part of the reason. >I know higher serum levels ios also associated with a lower perceived age. Makes sense though high circulating IGF-1 increases cancer. >prevention I wish I had the forethought and money to have started more prevention methods throughout my life early. Only prevention ive done is not being much an outdoors person so I never was tanned much and only been sunburned bad twice in my life and I stopped regularly drinking soda with high fructose corn syrup in it as a late teenager. I originally didnt drink alcohol either but I had started regularly in my later 20s. >I believe it is supposed to help restore collagen production on a cellular level, as opposed to just giving raw materials for production. I see. >I don't really freeze it or anything I just get it and eat it. >I only eat raw/unheated animal based foods, mostly meat and eggs with a small amount of milk for calcium, usually just a cup of day for me. That sounds risky to eat raw meat if the meat hasnt been frozen then thawed in fridge before consumption because you could get parasites that way or harmful bacteria. If you eat the eggs raw that also doesnt sound good unless you get them very fresh from a farm. >With long chain fatty acids, do you mean topical application of them, or getting them from diet? >I normally use shea butter or cocoa butter on my facial skin. Topical. I'm not sure, the guy's site mentioned topical ingredients less than 500 daltons in size can travel down the hair follicles to fat cells deeper in your skin but this study was on caffeine and didnt even mention adipose tissue so i dont know the other sources of some of that info if correct or not. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30001555/ This was paper cited on fatty acids https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22444967/ The rest of the papers mainly focus on black ginger https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22687402/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24629599/ I would think taken orally it would not go to your face since fat doesnt easily collect there and you lose facial fat as you age. There also is bone loss through age another thing that makes people look older and you need vitamin K for that to make calcium go where needed. You would do that orally.

>>11717 >high circulating IGF-1 increases cancer. Maybe. Low IGF-1 results in brain degradation, poor skin, poor muscle tone, etc. I think it only really causes cancer if you have DNA damage already since it causes cells to divide.I think some people believe that fasting occasionally can help repair this damage so that you can maintain a regenerative internal environment for the rest of the time. >I wish I had the forethought and money to have started more prevention methods throughout my life early. I think it is just really hard to find anything that does more than just prevent damage. Something that completely reversed it would be something that effectively de-ages you, which would be revolutionary, I think things like GHK-Cu, tretinoin, pregnenolone(precursor hormone) can be helpful though. >That sounds risky I don't know. I've been doing this a good few years now. Closer to a decade than not. I have yet to develop any diseases. The eggs I get from my yard. >topical ingredients less than 500 daltons in size can travel down the hair follicles to fat cells deeper in your skin This is interesting, thank you for this. So would just rubbing any oil on the face be effective? Like cocoa butter for example, it has a lot of stearic acid and the molecular weight of that is ~284

>>11720 >only causes cancer if you have DNA damage already Thing is though, likely everyone has tumors and they can become cancerous. To offset something like high IGF-1 you need to induce apoptosis more. That's part of what the fasting is about. Fasting creates acetone to be produced though, same as drinking alcohol does and same as what happens to diabetics though. I haven't found a solution on how to quickly deal with acetone production in the body since I am sure it may have some negative effects in appearance though not always clearly apparent. There also is some quite expensive sunscreens and creams you can get with DNA repair enzymes in them. I'm not sure other methods to reduce DNA damage at the moment and how much that effects appearance. It's difficult to find very fringe science on anti aging focused on primarily appearances instead of longevity. HGH also is involved in skin quality but same problem as IGF-1 likely. >would just rubbing any oil on the face be effective? You would want to check if the oil is anti inflammatory. If it's inflammatory then you would not give the cells room to grow. You also want to make sure it's non-comedogenic meaning it won't as likely cause pore blockage. 0-3 is non comedogenic 3 to 5 is comedogenic. Cocoa butter is a 4 so it's not considered non-comedogenic so it has a relatively good chance it may cause breakouts though maybe it wouldn't be an issue if you wash it off after im not sure. Also the longer the molecular chain the higher the melting point so thicker things you may have to heat them a bit for it to be fluid enough to flow deeper through your skin if your body temperature isnt enough, of course you dont want to burn yourself though obviously, Also I'd have to find what kinds of fats are in them if they matter or not. The product I mentioned uses safflower oil which is a type of seed oil that is anti inflammatory and has unsaturated (poly and mono) fats. If the types matter for topical use same as in diet id think youd want to aim for unsaturated fats but im not sure this is necessary for topical use.

Seems the anti aging thread posters continuously ignored my more aesthetic posts only concerned with lifespan extension so I think this thread might in some ways be better geared toward aesthetics even though it is about specific feminine or androgynous leaning aesthetics but those are the aesthetics of youth really. Here is a paper on facial fat how it relates to aesthetics. It was difficult to find a paper like this since so many academic papers on adipose tissue focus on health not aesthetics. > In animal experi- ments, hypertrophy caused ECM damage and subsequent dermal thinning [53]. When adipocyte size was reduced through exercise, collagen structure recovered as well. > A specific type of fat fitness loss is experienced by endurance athletes (e.g., long-distance runners), especially those who have high UV exposure [65]. These individuals may suffer from both loss of fat cell numbers and decreases in fat cell size, contributing to a characteristic gaunt appearance, especially in men. Exercise beyond a certain exertion threshold may deliver a double blow to fat tissue: adipogenesis is downregulated and the anti-oxidant status of the skin is compromised, making the skin more sus- ceptible to UV damage [66]. > Systemic PPARc agonists can increase the number and percentage of small adipocytes in non-diabetic obese sub- jects [75]. >A diet comprising polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs), which are natural PPARc agonistic ligands at physiological concentrations, offers a safer alternative to prescription PPARc therapies [76]. >Obese individuals, who consume relatively more polyunsaturated fatty acids, have healthier AT with more numerous, smaller adipocytes [77]. >Lymphatic drainage can reduce local areas of edema, which have been shown to promote adipocyte hypertrophy [78]. >For the face, cupping, massage and rolling are all modalities that have been demonstrated to improve lym- phatic drainage. > Topical treatment employing trans-follicular and trans- dermal routes of administration represents another promising approach. Hair follicles are located next to dermal adipocytes and are known to influence adipogenesis [80, 81]. Although the skin is protected by the epidermis’ stratum corneum permeability layer, it has been demon- strated that certain fatty acids (which can act as PPARc agonists) and nanoemulsions of pioglitazone can easily penetrate the epidermis and transit the dermis [36, 82, 83]. Given that these molecules can transit the dermis, it is reasonable to speculate that these molecules can penetrate the dWAT layer; however, to our knowledge, this has not been definitively demonstrated. Nevertheless, the feasibil- ity of this approach is supported by experience with topical prostaglandin analogs (e.g., ophthalmic bimatoprost) that interfere with adipogenesis and can cause periorbital adipose tissue atrophy [84–86]. > Procedures that increase skin microcirculation and pro- mote the diffusion of specific growth factors may also assist with dWAT regeneration. Microneedling has been demonstrated to increase levels of PDGFa, a key promoter of adipogenesis [87]. Microneedling also increases the survival of AT grafts, when used for pre-conditioning [88]. > Supplementing the diet with astaxanthin, a red car- otenoid found in crab, lobster, shrimp, salmon and microalgae, increased minimum erythema dose (MED) by nearly fivefold and was correlated with improvements in skin elasticity parameters in human studies [93, 94]. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00266-020-01933-6

>lains in thread taking IQ seriously take your titty pills you'll be fine

>>9965 First figure out why you are uncomfortable with the natural aging process. >>11704 >bioidentical as opposed to normal identical?

>>11801 Not OP but people treat you different on not only how attractive you are but how old or gentle you look and you have different personalities attracted to you based in part on your looks. So looking young and a bit more on feminine side has some advantages for some people. Im not talking about deception either rather a psychological effect that even if someone later knows your age as you tell them they wont see you as that age, they will see you as what they assumed you were on first sight if they assumed long enough which doesn't take too long.

>>11805 no soykaf people treat you different depending on your appearance. It isn't like having a single type of appearance is optimal, and the natural aging process lets you go through each one as you're supposed to. I have pretty effeminate features (eye shape, hip shape, jawbone, hair, etc...) and the only thing saving me from fully looking like my sisters is the occasional road beard. I can say with confidence that my appearance isn't the best, especially for me; I never get a second look from women and only users try to pick me up because women tend to gravitate towards taller, bigger men with harsher facial features. I can also tell that some people do not take me as seriously as a project director and I have to moderate how I pressure people because if I even appear visibly mad it looks like I'm smouldering. Anyways, if you want work as a model then yeah this look is fine for that as I have taken a couple offers based on my looks, but real people and real situations do not care for models. I've accepted that I look like this and the best thing for OP to do is to be glad he was born with what he has and to not pull a monkey's paw in the form of pharmaceuticals. Side note: I find that Europeans have the least problem with aging and tend to do it gracefully, whilst Americans have always had a huge problem with looking even a little old.

>>11806 It isn't about universal optimum but optimum for an individual in how they feel about themselves and how they want certain people to feel about them which different looks for different people would achieve. While it is important to work on personality traits, there is nothing wrong with working on appearances. Just so you are aware women's attraction depends on their age, menstrual cycle, and their sexuality. Bisexual women are more into more feminine men than straight women. Younger women also are more into feminine than older ones. Also their personality effects things, ones insecure over how feminine they are tend to be more attracted to extra masculine looking men because it makes them feel more feminine by contrast. As for projecting authority I think voice and speaking mannerism would have more effect than certain looks in some cases. Which Europeans? Since Eastern Europeans can sometimes look quite youthful like Southeast Asians do so I imagine it wouldnt bother them so much since it happens later. If that observation is correct it may be from how fast paced the American culture is.

>>11808 >how they feel about themselves and how they want certain people to feel about them Which changes over time as you age. A young man will grow into wanting to be treated like an old man. Temporary lapses wont change that overall trend and life teels you that jumping the gun on stuff like this is a bad idea. >Younger women also are more into [feminimity] than older ones. Well that's good for me. It isn't what I hear but in any case that'll be better :) >I think voice and speaking mannerism would have more effect than certain looks in some cases It's cool that you think that, but a forceful man with a ponytail swinging around will be less effective in the same situation than the same tactic applied by a normally dressed man. I see this all the time in work and life, as does everyone else in the world. >Which Europeans? I've seen it throughout most of central and southern europe (where I've been). They definitely look old, but they don't try to hide it in their media and in daily life.

Outside of titty pills, tretinoin 0.1% from the grey market applied once a week, nivea cream applied before bed and a moisturising facial sunscreen whenever you touch grass. There's a giga-autistic doctor in Michigan named Dr. Powers who applies his own compounded topical estrogen on his face. I recommend the former.

>>12028 >grey market tret you can get tret prescribed easily by going to a dermatologist and saying you want it for anti-aging. Virtual dermatologists will prescribe it too. Adapalene went otc a few years ago and is also an effective retinol.

>>11712 All the top of the most intelligent people I can think of are ugly AF. I suppose the average intelligent man is someone who can make himself live a healthy life which cause him to have what used to be called a normal intelligence and also what used to be called a normal body fat percentage. I can't see any fat person in the SpaceX videos yet they are from the US. Anyway, why do anyone want to look boyish? A 30's look is better for social life with men, for being attractive to women and professionally. What is the perk? Is this entirely about the fear of hair loss or aging, and accepting that we live in perishable bodies? Somehow I got the idea that the people who do that are not motivated by an existential terror over the acceptance of their still distant death but are attracted by immature men but I am sure this is just me.

>>9989 S2 Write a longer post. Write a longer post. Write a longer post.

>>9966 the brain is a carefully crafted chemical mixture so i can believe hrt lowers iq, but i cant find a single source supporting that claim. whered you figure this out?

>>13297 i can provide a few studies stating the opposite (such as https://www.jstor.org/stable/3811285 and of course the ones cited in https://sillyolme.wordpress.com/2010/04/06/smarter-than-the-average-bear/ ), but I don't believe any are accurate. the samples are way too small. there are also newer studies showing no correlation between brain surface area, brain size, IQ, homosexuality, and transsexuality such as https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6487075/ , but it is shown that FTMs do better on spatial reasoning while MTFs seem to have higher verbal ability, both of these things overlap with IQ. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306453020301402?via%3Dihub . this study is good because its a meta-analysis of all existing research. with that in mind i don't find it believable estrogen affects IQ in a significant positive or negative direction, especially in teens, even though i can imagine why it might do so in adults (as well as lowering emotional quotient) - many people undergoing normal puberty find things like focus more difficult as their bodies are awash with hormones. this creates a believable narrative that transsexual adults would not perform as well as their peers due to the "second puberty" they may be experiencing, however, the data does not reflect this at all and in fact shows the opposite. an interesting study focuses through brain slicing on volume of a particular type of neuron, the bed nucleus of striata terminal which is known to be sexually dimorphic (with men possessing more than women). what it found was not only that transsexual and cissexual women had similar levels (and likewise for cis and transsexual men), but that HRT seemingly had zero effect on these numbers. this study of course also says very little scientifically due to its very small sample sizes, moreso presenting a series of leads for further, more rigorous examination. https://web.archive.org/web/20201112030821/http://openmindedhealth.com/2012/01/transsexual-brain-studies/ there are several other studies in this post with interesting results as well. it is all very in-the-weeds with regards to neuroscience however, and attempts to explain things but can get confusing.

>>9965 What is your goal? To look good or to look femme? Do you not want to be an old man? Many dudes look better bald than balding. finasteride, diet(vegan does wonders) and exercise, >>12028 mentioned Dr. Powers. Theres a lot of options. But all of these are only useful to slightly blunt the impact of age. >>10261 I wonder this as well. Many an egg makes posts like this. >>12033 >Anyway, why do anyone want to look boyish? A 30's look is better for social life with men, for being attractive to women and professionally. What is the perk? Is this entirely about the fear of hair loss or aging, and accepting that we live in perishable bodies? someone who doesn't want to lose the opportunity to transition perhaps? Existential terror can be remedied with some self care and improvement. >>11661 i always assumed lain and lainchan was a heavily queer fanbase.

>>13298 > its shown that FTMs do better on spatial reasoning while MTFs seem to have higher verbal ability, both of these things overlap with IQ. It is accurate. Androgens have a high affinity for the hippocampus and other brain regions related to spatial processing, including spatial awareness, memory, athletics, and so on. (doi: 10.1146/annurev-clinpsy-050718-095557) On the other hand, estradiol has well-documented effects on emotional recognition, vocabulary, and related cognitive functions.(doi: 10.1016/j.psyneuen.2024.107103) What would be fascinating is finding a way to have both of these effects—preferably at higher levels—at the same time without exogenous hormones. The same would be interesting for me in terms of body composition. For example, how to activate gynoid fat distribution as a male without exogenous hormones, while still maintaining a functional HPTA and without significantly altering androgen receptors. From what I've found in the research, the only way might be to use phytoestrogens that bind to ER-beta, such as genistein and daidzein (from soy), coupled with high consumption of omega-3 PUFAs (DHA and EPA). As for the brain, I'm not really sure what could realistically be done, other than using some form of racetam with a stronger effect on the hippocampus. This might help someone with a higher estradiol-to-testosterone ratio handle spatial tasks more easily. Aniracetam could fit that profile, but I'm not completely certain about that.

>>13349 >>13349 > its shown that FTMs do better on spatial reasoning I'll take: "high-IQ autistic boys are more susceptible to troon propaganda" for 100 points unless you've got a study showing IQ rises meaningfully post-HRT (and no, studies on sub-18s don't count- that'd just be tracking normal IQ up with brain grow big)

Would hormones make sense to make my cheeks fuller like they were when I was younger or is there better ways to do this?

>>13349 >10.1146/annurev-clinpsy-050718-095557 are you sure you pasted the right study? this is >Estrogen, Stress, and Depression: Cognitive and Biological Interactions and doesn't really discuss androgens throughout (except to describe how they are aromatized to estrogen in the brain). >10.1016/j.psyneuen.2024.107103 can't access this paper except for on pubmed reading the abstract. if you have access, would you mind uploading it through https://sci-net.xyz ? >without using exogenous hormones this is gonna sound like a nitpick but phytoestrogens are exogenous hormones too, i bring this up because im not sure what you're looking for. is it that you want the cognitive benefit of having constant e levels as opposed to how they might fluctuate during menstruation? or, are you looking for a way to make your body have feminine fat distribution without evaporating your muscle gains? something i noted years ago when i was interested in using phytoestrogens for a very similar purpose is that they can have an androgenizing effect on women due to their status as partial binders can actually block the action of endogenous / bioidentical estradiol. I'm sure you've heard it already but if you're trying to achieve a more feminine fat distribution it might be finally worth the consideration you have gender dysphoria and want to transition, but the research seems interesting so I'll let you to it. presumably you've looked over the mad gender science wiki experimental pages already but if you haven't they might interest you. >>13351 your terminology is confused, we're referring to the opposite category you seem to think. >unless you've got a study showing IQ rises meaningfully post-HRT not what we're saying either, please work on reading comprehension. >>13353 ostensibly facial fat distribution is affected, you can also try taking collagen but there's a reason why people do facial fat transplants. you will however, need to gain weight.

>>13351 > are you sure you pasted the right study? this is You are right! I meant “Androgen Modulation of Hippocampal Structure and Function” (https://annas-archive.org/scidb/10.1177/1073858414558065/) > A number of studies suggest that testosterone supplementation may improve cognitive function, in particular spatial memory, in men (Cherrier and others 2001; Driscoll and Resnick 2007; Janowsky 2006; Sherwin 2003). > can't access this paper except for on pubmed reading the abstract. if you have access, would you mind uploading it through https://sci-net.xyz ? I don't have an account on sci-net, but if you do, you can upload it yourself, that would be awesome. I’ve added the pdf to this response. > something i noted years ago when i was interested in using phytoestrogens for a very similar purpose is that they can have an androgenizing effect on women due to their status as partial binders can actually block the action of endogenous / bioidentical estradiol. Yes, some phytoestrogens can have such an effect, even on men. I’m not sure if it’s been clearly shown in research, but there were bodybuilding coaches prescribing them to natural lifters who were on finasteride or dutasteride to boost strength gains, and it seemed to work quite well. Which is both fascinating and kind of duh. > or, are you looking for a way to make your body have feminine fat distribution without evaporating your muscle gains? > I'm sure you've heard it already but if you're trying to achieve a more feminine fat distribution it might be finally worth the consideration you have gender dysphoria and want to transition, but the research seems interesting so I'll let you to it. I don’t have full-blown gender dysphoria like I did a couple of years ago, and right now I really don’t like the idea of being dependent on external hormones, especially considering what may happen in the coming years. Because of that I’d rather use a very MED (minimum effective dose) approach to this. And that mostly means focusing on fat redistribution to the gluteofemoral region. The reason for this specifically is that I kind of forged my gender dysphoria into lower-body training in the gym, but because I’m very lean and I don’t like the idea of gaining fat on my abdomen or waist, I have very visible muscle separation on my glutes and legs, and I don’t like that that much. That’s why I’m kind of interested in this. > presumably you've looked over the mad gender science wiki experimental pages already but if you haven't they might interest you. Honestly, no, I haven’t. Thank you. If you have anything else you’d like to share, please let me know, I’d be really grateful.

>>13355 > ostensibly facial fat distribution is affected, you can also try taking collagen but there's a reason why people do facial fat transplants. you will however, need to gain weight. Yes, I was planning on taking collagen and internal hyalauronic acid and using retinoids likely before resorting to hormones or maybe same time but one issue is I heard from some scientist that developed an expensive product that is supported to help restore facial fat called Adipeau said that hyalauronic acid interferes because it gives less room for the facial fat cells to regenerate. My face also has a tendency to develop raised scars so I seem I possibly already to overproduce collagen at least in instances of injury. This is sort of me crossposting between this thread and the antiaging thread since I mentioned some things in both. Issue with that thread is many aesthetic concerns are overlooked in favor of life extension getting most of the attention since so many teen and 20 something Lains I assume why this might be. I years ago used to look more androgynous like, not full blown ambiguity just soft features, and over a decade younger than my age at the time according to some people but I have a sort of sunken look now that not only makes me look more masculine but aged and IMO quite ugly from certain angles; though some consider that look sexy, i dont for me. I just am not sure if estrogen or an anti androgen would distribute fat in the right places to make me look more like how I used to but cuter or wrong ones and make me look wrong or even less like myself in a bad way to look uglier. I know part of this can possibly be from bone shape changes from mild degradation which I hope not the case but I have tried getting more vitamin K2 in my diet. Some people they look more androgenized or feminized from hormones but others just wind up looking like IMO an off looking mix of masculine and feminine features akin to how people with facelifts look off like a face was fitted on a bone structure that doesnt match, and I am way past age of puberty so it is questionable how well this would work. There also is issue if even if I used something topical I dont particularly want to have more breast growth, I already have mild gynecomastia from tee tree oil shampoo I used during puberty which i had no idea it effected estrogen receptors. I am not sure if topical estrogen would be more effective or oral and if id need an anti androgen as well or not but also may have undesirable results taking that. I dont want my sex drive to be even worse than it has already become at least not long term. Outside of breast growth I wouldnt mind of my body was more feminine in some areas if attractive way so not a huge concern so I am not sure if oral or topical would be more effective at altering facial appearance in a desired way. I know SERMs exist so in theory I may be able to get my hands on some which I think raloxifene sounds much safer than tamoxifen for a male, to counter any estrogenic effects on breast tissue even though usually they are only given to someone closer to puberty age when not used for cancer treatment so it would be slightly off label use but it is questionable the long term use effects of these. Though I also had considered raloxifene alone but I am unsure how effective that is on top of the unclear long term effects. I also had seen some people claim it made their areola larger which I would not be pleased by if that occurred but I dont know what size they started at for these few that claimed this. I have been unsure if this is from hormone changes or from weight loss or from acetone production due to unintentional intermittent fasting + regular alcohol consumption or just the extreme stress ive been under for years. I never had a hormone test done in my life so I have no easy way to know what my hormones used to be like. I also have noticed my face color is darker which I also do not like but I had read before that skin color can be influenced by progesterone and estrogen. Estrogen darkens skin and progesterone lightens it. But does this mean I have lowered progesterone or raised estrogen or a non hormonal cause such as a skin condition, I dont know. I also from my phenotypes have thin under eye skin so I am concerned some estrogen would make it look even less full and thin my skin making me have darker under eyes, which sometimes can look cool but other times can look aging, Despite not knowing causes I have for now been just using random likely not very effective herbs like peppermint tea and green tea to keep testosterone lower in case my slightly healthier eating habits and increased exercise was increasing testosterone or if it has been dropping in age and health despite this causing me to look more masculine in an undesirable way. Maybe I am fuarrrked by time no matter what but I just want to look more youthful and androgynous and attractive to me. Also there is a topic I may have to crosspost on /drg/ some time but I question what caused my emotional state to change where my emotions feel more dulled good and bad ones which hormonal changes is one cause ive considered. I do not know if hormonal changes blocked off my emotions and bodily sensitivities to be dulled or if that is just subconcious suppression from trauma or other causes. I dont know if estrogenic effects would help bring that back or not regardless of if oral or topical and if SERMs also would have an effect. I am aware SERMs like raloxifene do go to the brain. But i also am concerned of things becoming even worse in my brain chemistry and receptor balance.

Coming back to this >>13356 >>13358 >anything else you think I should know 4chan's /lgbt/ board unironically has some good advice on the hrt general for questions, there is a thread about trans women's breast development that should be helpful. and there is also https://transfemscience.org which has dose simulators that should be helpful for getting you to stable MED, as well as other resources. madgenderscience.miraheze.org has two pages that may be of interest, "experimenting feminizing hrt" and "experimental nonbinary hrt". >Face has sunken look I think I know what you're talking about. I think retinoids and skincare could fix that, sunlight and proper sleep. >Internal hyaluronic acid Since it goes away after about a year you could certainly try it and see your results, likewise with topical estrogen, though it sounds like you might just leave it out. I think retinoids are way better than a/bha anyway. Personally I use snail gel and it's great. >Intermittent fasting >Alcohol consumption >Stress These will age your face worse than any hormone, and worse yet might cause a spike in SHBG which you really don't want. I'm in the same boat though so I feel you. I'm quitting cigarettes this year precisely because of this, I feel like I hit the wall last two years but realized I slacked in my transition and started smoking cigarettes. >Face darker Wear sunscreen, you should absolutely be using a light sunscreen for skincare purpose anyway especially if you plan to start retinoids. I think CeraVe is a decent brand, but I could be wrong on that. >Not sure if I should do estrogen or not If it helps it won't make long term changes unless you actually develop breasts, which takes several years to grow at quite high E levels. You can have invisible breast buds or even just gynecomastia on E for years. >Aging due to low T levels Entirely possible as puberty doesn't really end until your late 20s so having low T without any other hormone effect could make you look like a 30 year old whose T is starting to decline. There is also the possibility your body is feeling worn out precisely because it is recovering from the stress and detoxing essentially, this is what's happening to me with the cigarettes. Meaning it will probably pick up again. >Hormonal changes blocked off my emotions E will probably make you more emotional but blocking T will probably make you less. If you have GD which you seem to it will also make you a lot happier which will make your emotions better in general. dince you mentioned being more dysphoric when younger and having trauma so it's entirely likely you have developed a form of alexithymia and are dissociating more because of it. This would absolutely track with the way you are talking about e.g. your face and expressing severe uncertainty and discomfort with it. Sorry lain, that is like kicking dead whales down the beach. >SERMs, blood brain barrier, receptor balance Same advice I would give for estrogen, you can take it for a few months and see how it feels then go off of it if it's not for you.

>>9965 OP, mtf people dont only do hormones, they study *anti-aging* you are not looking for hormone assistance, you are looking for anti-aging assistance which bleeds into cosmetics and fashion and aesthetics and that sort of thing i am of the opinion that plastic surgery and all that extreme body modification is a waste of time, even for mtf people and ftm people the body is a naturally occurring machine, it cannot function the way its supposed to if you start removing parts of the body or altering it too much... you have to work with what you have and understand why your mind desires certain things a little bit of hormone therapy is okay if you are trans, but there are natural ways to do this such as foods you eat and lifestyle...you don't necessarily have to buy into what big-pharma is selling, especially when they are selling plastic surgery like 'facial feminization' and that sort of soykafe ......a healthy body is going to be attractive enough naturally, no matter what your persuasion is or what kind of clothes you wear. since you are not mtf, just stick with the natural occuring processes of your body, avoid all the chemicals and toxins in the environment and food that break the body down (free radicals, oxidation, bad hygiene, rough living, etc...) study anti-aging though for sure because it sounds like that's what you are looking to do......as we are told, "beauty is from the inside out"

>>13351 >and no, studies on sub-18s don't count- that'd just be tracking normal IQ up with brain grow big you could filter for this by studying how the development of IQ differs between people that go through HRT and those who don't. Wouldn't be hard to do the stats, if you have the data. Most likely you'd get similar data looking at any other cohort of people that go from untreated mental illness to treated mental illness.

You can do many things: Semaglutide for calories, low calorie diet = higher lifespan. HGH also helps. TRT also helps if you are male, and you can combine with a good hihg protein diet and semaglutide and working out 90 mins daily, even cardio is good - TRT and semaglutide together has a nice symbosis that trt by itself does not have, but this is not high dosage e.g. 50-150mg trt weekly maximum, not the super high doses. stimulants work too, adderal, concerta, etc if you happen to be in south america, coca leaf is easy to find in bulk quantity. ketamine works great too - but for just hormone hacking, biohacking the biggest thing IMO is crispr, there is nothing yet for DIY but very soon there will be - to sequence your DNA and change things as you'd want. I'd go on more, but I don't like the whole MTF slant, I don't care about the trans thing in general, but I dont' equate the whole gender == body longevity thing. Theres alot in this thread, that I'm a bit lazy to read but I can go on what I'm doing as a somewhat functional normal mid 30's yr old male with no gender dysphoria, but I do like cute femboys and do like cute trans in general - just don't wanna be that. my thing is more life extension, and working with what genes I got to put off genetic disease risk and live long so my savings/assets compund so I can make the new gen be my bitches

>>13386 >but there are natural ways to do this such as foods you eat and lifestyle... yup! There is a possibility my mother practiced this on me without my knowledge given she would also refer to me in a feminine form... and I am not talking about Orthodoxal lenting, but instead, it's the cutlets, minced meat full of lard and stuff without real meat in between the lenting periods. And not buying eggs. Oh yeah. That's too. She's a smoker, by the way, hence her lack of B4 vitamin was covered with fake B4 (nicotine uses the same receptors + she's an adult) but not me (a kid, who wasn't allowed to cook for some reason)

my friend and i recently discovered their an anti-aging neighbor with a book out and a seemingly researched stack of peptides and nootropics for de-aging. attached, what do we think? >>13388 as mtf. i appreciate your presence here, you're right that HRT doesn't really have anything to do with anti-aging, and being interested in this stuff doesn't make you trans. maybe there is some overlap with trans women wanting to look younger and change their bodies faster but i think this is true for women in general, which plenty of men im sure feel too (though probably for more intelligence and fitness reasons as age doesn't reduce men's attractiveness at all), the difference being that mtfs already have intervened into our physiology are more likely to be comfortable doing it again. but this is case-by-case entirely, plenty of trannies who are not comfortable doing these things. and, with the more superficial similarities aside, the specific methods used to achieve de-aging are completely different from HRT. With that being said, what do you think of the anti-aging research happening in china right now? I know peptides are the current trend, but im more interested in what might happen in the next year or so. i remember seeing a headline about what honestly sounds like science fictional level anti-aging breakthroughs. it might have been https://english.cas.cn/newsroom/research_news/life/202506/t20250620_1045926.shtml which is animal study i realize, but it feels as if there was something else too. something more recent, with greater claims. >the biggest thing IMO is crispr, there is nothing yet for DIY but very soon there will be - to sequence your DNA and change things as you'd want. ive heard that its already possible but it would be very dangerous to do so. what you would do is create a virus (such as lentivirus which is a common vector) that carries the genes you want to modify as a payload, infect yourself with it, and by the time your immune system is done taking care of it you'll have new genes. there is the claim that someone achieved DMRT1 knockout using this method but I cannot speak to truthfulness or efficacy, seemingly it would require a mammal host to cultivate the virus in first. https://forum.biohack.me/discussions/2931 >>13391 i think you're thinking of b3, niacin and niacinamide. nicotine isn't "fake", it oxidizes to b3 and actually most of the food we eat (especially grain) is enriched with b3 that has been derived from nicotine. nicotine is however not a b vitamin and does not have the same effects as one, in spite of affecting some of the same receptors it is not active on your body for longer than a few minutes and certainly could not replace b3 in any health-related capacity.

>>13394 if that is true, that men do not become less attractive with age, how come nobody wants to hook up with older guys? in order to actually do anti-aging to the degree that the Chinese are researching and to the degree that tabloids talk about, you'd have to be very self-disciplined and focus on completely organized routines, and regimens and lifestyle. It is probably a lot of work....perhaps too much work. A little bit of anti-aging goes a long way. self-discipline is good, but there is such a thing as excess and also such a thing as vanity. i always tell older women who cry about getting old that they should just roll with the punches and accept what life is throwing at them, but then again i know life can be very cruel and i believe in life after death.

>>13402 >how come nobody wants to hook up with older guys? you're kidding, right? lots of people have a preference for older men

>>13402 >if that is true, that men do not become less attractive with age, how come nobody wants to hook up with older guys? How fat are you? As long as you are somewhat in shape (not even buff, just not-fat) and under 60-70, no one has a problem with your age on itself

>>13385 > 4chan's /lgbt/ board unironically has some good advice on the hrt general for questions, there is a thread about trans women's breast development that should be helpful. and there is also https://transfemscience.org which has dose simulators that should be helpful for getting you to stable MED, as well as other resources. madgenderscience.miraheze.org has two pages that may be of interest, "experimenting feminizing hrt" and "experimental nonbinary hrt". Yeah I had stumbled on those sites on my own though the info seems lacking compared to what I found on my own like how tamoxifen is genital toxic so males shouldnt take it (and in females can increase risk of uterine cancer) but raloxifene seems fine but of questionable effects on long term use. I know it can be used for a few years but beyond that i dont know. > I think I know what you're talking about. I think retinoids and skincare could fix that, sunlight and proper sleep. Hopefully. I look like soykaf when I just a few years ago looked at least young for my age by a fair amount aside from not having a very feminine nose. > Since it goes away after about a year you could certainly try it and see your results, likewise with topical estrogen, though it sounds like you might just leave it out. I think retinoids are way better than a/bha anyway. Personally I use snail gel and it's great. I dont exactly have years to try out different things I am in a pretty bad state in my life beyond issues with my appearance. I might or might not try estrogen. In fact you can get a form of topical estrogen over the counter in form of menopause cream and I heard the form used is still a feminizing effect, but im not sure if it would cause breakouts on skin since that is not intended use, and id question messing with hormones without actually monitoring my level or having an idea how id look since there is attractive and there is unnatractive results with messing with hormones so it seems a bit a gamble. I wish i had a test years back so i have something to compare to on if hormone changes had much role in my appearance changes or not. > These will age your face worse than any hormone, and worse yet might cause a spike in SHBG which you really don't want. I'm in the same boat though so I feel you. I'm quitting cigarettes this year precisely because of this, I feel like I hit the wall last two years but realized I slacked in my transition and started smoking cigarettes. What happens when SHBG rises? I started doing nicotine pouches to reduce my alcohol consumption due to high cost which im not sure if that is better or worse due to the vasoconstriction. I dont plan on using that too regularly just trying to cope with things and helps jog my memory. > Wear sunscreen, you should absolutely be using a light sunscreen for skincare purpose anyway especially if you plan to start retinoids. I think CeraVe is a decent brand, but I could be wrong on that. My face got darker when my arms got lighter so I dont think it is as simple as only a tan but I do plan on looking into Western European and South East Asian sunscreen brands because I do not usually wear anything daily. The stuff the US gets is outdated technology and the stuff from other countries is higher quality. I also have considered taking polypodium pills which are supposed to make skin not get sunburnt so easily but I am unsure on health effects of it since it may be that is a bad thing. >If it helps it won't make long term changes unless you actually develop breasts, which takes several years to grow at quite high E levels. You can have invisible breast buds or even just gynecomastia on E for years. Maybe. I think what supposed to make that not reverse is due to fibrin buildup, right? I had considered it might be possible serrapeptase or nattokinase may help partial reversal in theory but not sure since untested. >Entirely possible as puberty doesn't really end until your late 20s so having low T without any other hormone effect could make you look like a 30 year old whose T is starting to decline. Technically puberty has no end. I am not sure in males but they at least proved it in females their hips just keep getting wider in age, just it slows down a lot. Id think it would be more due to dietary and life changes but i can see it going either direction from these causes. >There is also the possibility your body is feeling worn out precisely because it is recovering from the stress and detoxing essentially, this is what's happening to me with the cigarettes. Meaning it will probably pick up again. The stress never ended. Im under more than ever. For example of some effects my hair has been turning pure white for years now. Mostly just facial hair. No one in my family even has white hair and did not grey till their 70s. Both my parents also look decades younger for their ages in their late 70s early 80s without effort and fairly poor diet so I should be able to pull off a lot, in theory anyway. >will probably make you more emotional but blocking T will probably make you less. If you have GD which you seem to it will also make you a lot happier which will make your emotions better in general. dince you mentioned being more dysphoric when younger and having trauma so it's entirely likely you have developed a form of alexithymia and are dissociating more because of it. This would absolutely track with the way you are talking about e.g. your face and expressing severe uncertainty and discomfort with it. Sorry lain, that is like kicking dead whales down the beach. The concept of gender dysphoria is too arbitrarily vague too me on what that really means. It would be fair to say i have a dysphoria of sorts relating to a lack of a life and expectations placed on me and that gender norms sometimes worked against me like they do anyone but I wouldnt call it inherently gender dysphoria. I was not more dysphoric on my appearance when younger, Im not sure where you got that unless you just accidentally used wrong word or mixed me with someone else or im misunderstanding what you mean. > Same advice I would give for estrogen, you can take it for a few months and see how it feels then go off of it if it's not for you. I would not know how to get a SERM. I am not sure I could easily ask a doctor especially when I dont consider myself trans and have anxiety talking to people about personal things. Only way around that is if I tried getting it for gynecomastia but it usually isnt given to adults and it is mild enough they may not want to. I dont know chemistry or have a proper lab I cant exactly make my own meds. For now ive just been trying to find if there is any natural SERMs but different SERMs effect different parts of the body different.

>>13385 Does anyone know what this Lain meant about SHBG raising being unwanted? What does it do ?

>>13402 >if that is true, that men do not become less attractive with age, how come nobody wants to hook up with older guys? I dont think this has much to do with physical appearance as much as "youthfull energy", most older guys i see with young people act young, they spend time outside and do what they like, chill out, play casual sports and do light drugs like they dont give a fuarrrk. A grumpy old fart who has his life set towards the grave is not a something anyone wants in their life, people are attracted to fun outgoing personalities whom they can have exciting times with and not just sit at home doing the dishes and watching tv on repeat.

transgender people transitioning is not really comparable with those other things you mentioned like cosmetic surgery to cover up signs of aging. biology is not something that can be "hacked", an organism is not a machine that you can reduce to individual components and restructure for a desired outcome, it is a holistic and deeply interconnected living system with hardcoded properties that are by and large set in stone by the neonatal development period and cannot be significantly altered after that point. the reason people can transition from one gender to the other is because binary gender is not really a thing - the body already has the innate capacity for both male and female gender presentation, people are already a combination of male and female traits from the start and so transitioning is just a matter of suppressing the pre-existing male component and amplifying the pre-existing female component. you're not fundamentally altering the way the body works, you're just slightly tweaking what the body is already doing by itself. the fact that people are able to transition from one gender to another only demonstrates how arbitrary and immaterial the concept of gender really is. trying to control or prevent aging on the other hand is a completely impossible goal. the aging process is a hardcoded property all the way down to the cellular level governed by the basic laws of physics and chemistry, you're doing battle with entropy itself, trying to stop cells from aging is like trying to stop a radioactive isotope from decaying or trying to stop stone from weathering or stop milk from expiring. you can do things to try to cover up the aging process superficially but the body will continue to age underneath them, facelifts will sag and wrinkle, hair implants will turn grey and fall out just like the original hair did, etc. and honestly these desperate attempts at clinging to one's youth often just end up looking bizarre.

>>13965 >transgender people transitioning is not really comparable with those other things you mentioned like cosmetic surgery to cover up signs of aging What about beauty? Aging is inevitable but beautifying yourself is something we all want to do and within limits its a good thing. If transgenders have techniques that are useful to us then why not ask them? We might learn things from them and come to respect each other better. I can understand your point that resisting aging has a kind of arrogance to it, a refusal to accept reality and treating the body as a machine to be tweaked and optimized but transgenders make the same mistake don't they? >the fact that people are able to transition from one gender to another only demonstrates how arbitrary and immaterial the concept of gender really is. I'm going to disagree with you here a little bit. Gender isn't arbitrary and isn't immaterial because it is part of a coherent system of thought and has material effects. Often transgenders say that since gender is a myth and there's no objective criteria for woman, then woman can mean whatever they feel it means. This is the rejection of God and divine law. But if woman can mean anything, then what's the point in transitioning? You can just call yourself a woman and leave it at that.

If you're really interested >tretinoin This is your main weapon. Use 0.05% or 0.025% nightly. Go easy with it, you have to work up to being able to slather it all over your face. Keep it away your eyelids, you will get dry eyes. It's a lot cheaper off grey market pharmacies. Look for "A-Ret Gel" and order 6 tubes. >sunscreen Get any one that you like as long as it works and you use it. I like asian sunscreens like Isntree or Hado Labo. Wear a hat. >vit c This is really only for correcting sun damage. Tret is already doing the work of reducing fine lines and increasing cell turnover. Get vit c if you think you need it but you can skip it and save your money. >niacinimide Go easy with this one. It's the skin "brightening" or what used to be called whitening ingredient. It works really well but too much will fuarrrk your soykaf up. I only use it in a morning LRP cleanser and once in a while in a moisturizer. >moisturizer and moisturizing serums Use these daily. Get anything that works for you without splurging. For me PKY essence serum (contains lots of arginine) and illiyoon ceramide ato lotion (in the big pump, not the cream) make the biggest differences. You want ceramides at a cheap price point. I stack the serum, then lotion, then sunscreen, applying plenty of serum under the eyes. A ghk-cu serum for the eyes at night is a good idea since you can't use tret for your eyes. >ghk-cu It's a copper peptide. You can use it topically which is the only form it's been studied in. However, you might be aware that plenty of people are pinning it for systemic effects including skin, nails, overall repair. The general consensus is that it does work, and in my experience I would agree. If you're interested in trying that just search youtube or the glp1forum. This one works on a longer time horizon. >hormones You will hear people say that testosterone is poison. However my levels are above reference levels and people still think I'm 10-13 years younger than I really am. You can have high T levels but you should still consider some modifications here. >dutasteride This one is important. All men are subject to hair loss outside of a very tiny lucky percentage. If you're American then get 0.5mg dut from a telehealth service like Dr. B and have it sent to an online pharmacy like CostPlus. If you're European then good luck finding a doctor that will give you dut. You can try your luck with minoxidil but there's plenty of anecdotes that it makes you look older. Dutasteride is more tolerable in my case and works better than finasteride, one theory for this is that it binds to blood plasma and is basically unable to cross the BBB. Dutasteride also reduces DHT in your face, which brings me to.. >estriol cream Decades ago beauty companies used to sell facial creams with estriol and estrodiol for anti-aging effects but they mostly went away because of breast cancer concerns. However they still exist if you look for them. I like the brand LifeFlo. You can use this as a nightly cream under your tretinoin. It won't affect your systemic hormone levels. That's basically it. Avoid drugs, alcohol, smoking. Get plenty of sleep and drink lots of water.

>>13962 how to have fun outgoing personality?

>>13966 >Gender isn't arbitrary and isn't immaterial because it is part of a coherent system of thought and has material effects. >This is the rejection of God and divine law. if what we think and believe is just as real as what exists outside of our minds then your whole argument falls apart because it means that whatever i think and believe overrules whatever you think and believe. you say gender is a real material property because you believe that it is, i can just as easily say the opposite because i don't believe that it is. if you want to actually prove something is real and exists outside of our minds in reality, be it gender or god or whatever, then you have to supply some empirical evidence. where is your empirical evidence? outward appearance and superficial visual traits like clothing and hair and body shape are things that we arbitrarily decided to be either masculine or feminine after the fact and don't actually prove a person's "true gender" as demonstrated by transgender people and their ability to pass as whatever gender they present as. sexual organs and x/y chromosomes are just biological properties that we arbitrarily associate with masculinity or feminity after the fact and at any rate they don't actually align with our binary model in reality as demonstrated by the existence of intersex people, so that's out too. what else is there? this is basically like the witch scene in monty python and the holy grail, where they are arguing over how to prove this woman is a witch with ridiculous circular reasoning such as "she looks like one!" and then inventing some absurd metric for determining witchness based on whether or not she weighs as much as a duck which would therefore make her float in water like witches supposedly do, all the while nobody ever considers the possibility that there is no such thing as a witch to begin with and that the whole argument is based on an absurd premise that has no scientific validity to begin with. we can go round and round all day arguing about gender and what is feminine and what is masculine and how to determine if a person is truly male or female and how to account for people who don't seem to fit into either binary, or we can just accept that there is no gender and take the L and admit that our model of understanding was flawed and insufficient at the outset.

>>13969 The moment you brought up monty python I knew not to take what you say seriously. The fact you use words like material should have been a red flag. This is off topic anyway.

I'm a trans woman on regular HRT regimen, so I'm going to chip in with some of my knowledge here. 1. I know only a handful of cis men who undergo regular feminizing hormone therapy, and even these few cases are very close to being non-binary. If you're a cis man - full dose of normal HRT is probably going to make you feel miserable (aka give you gender dysphoria) 2. If you're looking for ways to look more young or androgynous, you should explore either low-dosing HRT (taking enough E for some nicer skin effects to kick in, but without breast growth setting in) or using SERMs. Unfortunately, SERMs are very underexplored, while HRT microdosing is almost exclusively domain of femboys or male-leaning non-binary people and remember: regardless of the dose, there's always the risk of permanent infertility

>>13967 How do you get Asian or European sunscreens in the US that have ingredients the FDA did not approve of? Do you know if estriol cream is localized in effects or if it spreads through the bloodstream or near by areas?

>>13970 it's not off-topic, OP made a connection between gender transitioning and cosmetic anti-aging treatments and i'm explaining why these two things are completely different because this is a very misguided and potentially dangerous thing to believe. gender-affirming hormonal therapy is for people who suffer from gender dysphoria, it's not a superficial cosmetic procedure for people who just want to look younger. the effects on the body go much deeper than just altering outward appearance, it's not just a makeover and any transgender person who has transitioned will tell you the same thing and no sane credible doctor would prescribe hrt drugs for such a trivial reason. people who choose to transition don't do it for just vain cosmetic reasons as OP implies, there is a very real difference between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria. body dysmorphia is based on a distorted view of oneself, a person with body dysmorphia obsesses about some aspect of their outward appearance and distorts it into this huge life-defining thing when in reality other people generally don't even notice it or care about it at all. with gender dysphoria it's basically the exact opposite of that, a person with gender dysphoria has an intrinsic sense of who they are that they've always had for as long as they can remember but they've had to suppress it because it doesn't align with how other people see them and define them. let's take a very common example of body dysmorphia, let's say there's a guy who is kind of short, like maybe 5'7" in height and he is extremely insecure about this, he feels bad about it all the time, he walks around all day feeling like everyone is staring at him and judging him for being 5'7" and other men are looking down on him for being short and women are rejecting him for being short, the entire world is just constantly saying look at the little short man what a pathetic short little man he is. but in reality this isn't what is happening at all, nobody cares that he's slightly shorter than the average man, nobody is talking about how short he is, nobody is judging him for being short, nobody is thinking about his height at all, and he's not even really that short it's not like he's a dwarf or something, and even actual dwarves do not obsess about their height as much as he does, he's actually a very average regular guy but in his mind he is the shortest man who ever lived and it's all anyone is talking about. there are experimental and highly-controversial surgical procedures to increase a person's height by an inch or so by breaking their legs and fusing them back together and it's extremely expensive and painful and horrible and only the most irresponsible quack doctors would ever go along with it, and in the end it won't do anything to help him because his real problem isn't his height, his problem is he has a distorted self-image. now consider a person with gender dysphoria, they were assigned male at birth and told by their parents that they are a boy and raised as a boy throughout their entire childhood, dressed in boy clothes, given boy toys to play with, encouraged to play with other boys and engage in boy activities, but all the while since as long as they remember they've never really felt like a boy, they've felt like a girl and they've identified with girl things and had a natural tendency to gravitate towards girl behaviors which others have always tried to steer them away from, their parents would try to push them towards the correct boy behaviors and away from the incorrect girl behaviors, their teachers would do the same thing in school as would the other kids in their peer group, when they reach the age of puberty and their body begins to change and take on characteristics that society has labelled as male characteristics this becomes a particular source of distress because now their own body seems to be betraying them and joining in with the rest of the world telling them "you are a man" yet deep down they know and have always known that this is not who they are, and it's all based on this one brief moment at the beginning of their life where some doctor saw a penis and said "it's a boy", and ever since that moment they've been locked in to this assigned gender and pressured to conform to an outside definition of who they are. this isn't a case of distorted self-image, this is a case of distorted externally-imposed identity, this is a person who has a real sense of self and an accurate perception of who they really are, but the entire world is telling them something different.

stfu and take the estrogen you degenerate fuarrrks. we all know that you're just trying to edgelord yourself into it with your *maxing bullshit. nobodoy cares, welcome to club tranny. just stop being little retards about it. also: get your style down because a pretty face isn't enough to carry you through life.

>>13973 You don't seem to reading the OP right. >would it be controversial for me to simply want hormone replacement, not for any gender-affirming reason, but simply for aesthetics. OP isn't talking about reversing aging, but thinking about how tech/meds used by trans people can be used by someone who is not trans for purely aesthetic reasons. The intent behind transition and its legitimacy isn't in question here, because the discussion concerns whether or not some of the techniques used in transition can be useful cosmetically. I'm assuming OP is male and there isn't great advice for males in this area, especially when you consider that mainstream focus is now on how to bulk up and not preservation of a male's androgynous and boyish features which we usually loose in our late 20s. Mtf trans also have an interest in keeping some of those physical features, so it would seem natural to just ask them. The warning that hormone replacement isn't a simple cosmetic procedure is important, and already noted by other lains iTT, but again nobody is saying they want to go all the way or even use hormone therapy at all. This is a more asking transgenders for advice on an issue where we might have some common ground.

>>13976 i don't know where one even gets the idea that transitioning from mtf can help you retain a youthful appearance. have you never seen any middle-aged trans women? they just look like middle-aged women. and whatever attempts they make to try to retain a youthful appearance are no more or less effective than they are when cis women do it. just look at kaitlin jenner, she's basically like a trans version of joan rivers, becoming more freakish looking the older she gets because she keeps getting facelifts and surgery in desperate attempts to preserve her youth like every other vain hollywood narcissist celebrity. you can't go back to looking like a boy. you can either look a middle aged man, a middle aged woman, a middle aged nonbinary, or you can spend millions of dollars to look like some kind of monster.

>>13977 transexuals have a lot of delusional thinking, especially trenders who don't really understand what they're actually doing. it is easy to become medically aware of blood levels and receptors, but there's deeper reasons for the high suicide rates post-transition. most mtf won't admit it, but the dirty lie is that suicide doesn't come from regret above most all other causes. there's plenty of real transexuals, the literature is unambiguous going back decades, but what we're seeing is not that. the whole "transgender" argument hinges on wordplay rather than the visceral biological needs that affect a very few people. case in point: the majority of transexuals weren't producing porn or being hookers. there's reasons, huge reasons, for why the narrative is now written by manwhores who seem so fragile that they kill themselves at the slightest inconvenience to their strange worldview.

>>13977 Transgenders take pretty higher doses of hormones and are also taking androgen blockers though which may have an inverse effect on some.things. Plus if they wear makeup that ages them too because it can cause skin damage in some cases. You would have a better argument if you were just arguing how such an intent is more experimental so results can be a gamble and for some things there is other methods than hormones to look younger. I know what OP likely is focused on is adipose facial tissue. When you age the health of it declines but females have more in some areas so I get the idea it may help fill back what was lost but likely it will take more than hormones to restore it.

>>13978 transgender people kill themselves for the same reason everyone else kills themselves, for the same reason people get drunk or high, for the same reason people play their mindless videogames and shop for stupid crap on amazon - to escape from the misery of life. don't try to use other people's suicides to promote your dumb 4chan ideological nonsense, that's just weak and lazy. plus it's not like you have any room to talk here, you probably think about killing yourself, i can see it in the way you talk. you were probably thinking about it before you wrote that reply, it's probably what prompted it, it's why you jarringly steered the conversation towards suicide and just kept going on and on about suicide when nobody had even said anything about suicide in this thread at all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh7QWBb2U2A

>>13977 These are good points you've raised. I've noticed transgenders in the their 20s are often males interested in preserving some of their youthful features as they transition. You're right we can't all stay young. That's delusional. Let me phrase it this way, young mtfs are interested in beautifying their bodies right? Well, if you're a young not trans male who else do you go to for advice? The meatheads at the gym who lift 40000 pounds to look like Ronnie Coleman? No! And I'd be too shy to ask a girl, so asking a transgender just feels more comfortable. Let's say I like some of the aesthetic features and style features some trans people are associated with, is it really wrong to ask them? I'm coming from a place of ignorance about being trans sure, but is that really a terrible thing? Everyone starts out ignorant.

>>13981 >yung mtfs are interested in beautifying their bodies rite? I am very angryble to therefore ask yung mtfs for beautification advice, as a young male not at all interested in transsex hormones, castration, or being gay. OK but why not go to a girl then ? Or why not go to a post menopausal woman trying to look like a teenager ? Or perhaps more reasonably why not go to one of the huge numbers of relatively young males trying to be reasonably attractive/fit/healthy and not look like a body builder. Have you ever been to a gym thats not 100% dedicated to power lifting ? That is like 95% of gyms by the way. The transgender, by the way, is ususally far more interested in 'passing' than looking pretty, not to mention the fact that his standards for looking pretty are probably as perverse as he is, not to mention the fact that if he is trying to be attractive to people, they are most likely a different sort of people than you, as a normal person, are trying to attract.

>>13980 bro i am the poster, and i am a transexual. you clearly aren't read up on the soykaf but here's the tea: >transexuals ≠ transgenders >transgenders ≈ incel but glitterboy >transexuals ≈ so gay you rip around to straight the plague of transtrenders has dragged a lot of us down with their bs. they also drag the suicide numbers WAY UP because they're not actually meant for what they do - it's a larp with catastrophic consequenes. imagine giving adderall 40mg to a normal person with insomniac... see yet? christ you fuarrrking people. >>13977 >i don't know where one even gets the idea that transitioning from mtf can help you retain a youthful appearance. have you never seen any middle-aged trans women? they just look like middle-aged women. and whatever attempts they make to try to retain a youthful appearance are no more or less effective than they are when cis women do it. i replied to this. suicide factors in because so many retards ACTUALLY THINK it'll be all magic. that their fantasy isn't realized directly leads to many suicides. get it yet or do i need to dumb it down further for your subhuman fool you fuarrrking degenerate?

>>13982 >far more interested in 'passing' This is something that I could never truly understand. If we accept the premise that gender is non-binary, and furthermore, that conventional gender paradigms are fundamentally misrepresentative, then why do trans individuals seek validation within the very framework of those established traditional definitions? Why "pass" if one fundamentally rejects that interpretation of gender? You might argue that the desire for integration with society, striving for a sense of community, or external acceptance are the motivators, yet I do not understand how that necessitates the abandonment of one's perceptions and convictions merely to conform and "pass" in the eyes of those who do not share those ideals. I have previously attempted to rationalize this. I do not "identify" as male in the strict traditional sense of the term, yet I am equally not deluded into, nor do I attempt to, conform to a definition (i.e, the traditional female counterpart) that bears no relation to my actual self. I am simply myself, and that is the whole sum of my identity. I possess a spectrum of male and female traits, as I expect virtually everyone does, and my gender, like that of most individuals, resists strict traditional categorization. Consequently, I see no necessity for chopping my dick off or yelling out loud that my gender is X and not Y, because I'd be falling to the binary discourse that your view vehemently fights against.

>>13984 non-binary bs is invented by non-passing rejects to shame passoids.

>>13984 woketards make it confusing by saying transgender when they mean transsexual. nobody reasonable gives a fuarrrk about social presentation or pronoun affirmation that's a bunch of bullshit made up by libshits who want to feel le woke progressive. trans people, i.e. transsexuals, modify their sex characteristics by taking the hormones of the opposite sex, literally "trans" "sex". that's all it is. the whole identity dialogue was a mistake. the important thing is to get on estrogen or testosterone and the social nonsense will follow from there

I did think 'transgender' was the only framework as I didn't know who I was at the time. Before that I was mistaken as a tranny since I looked like one before realizing I was male during my teenage years. I never felt a sense of belonging in the trans community and that most of them were just making a mockery of people struggling with genuine gender identity issues. I was even confused when my pooner and troon peers at the time who said they are "true" trans acted the opposite of their supposed gender. The "true trans" thing was pretty much a myth made up by terminally online weirdos as I realized later on. The whole entire label is built around overcompensation, fear and distrust and certainly isn't healthy. Paranoia is often normalized and being the worst version of yourself is often encouraged. I showed alot of skepticism only to get constantly gaslit. A lot of leftists claim to be against pseudoscience such as the flat earth theory and vaccine alternatives but would turn a blind eye towards transgenderism. It's really strange. For a while I did a lot of research online and have been documenting what I experienced only to find out that I have ovotestes likely caused from chimerism. That put a huge weight off my chest and I'm hoping to get professionally diagnosed by a university-based clinic soon. Been alot happier ever since, and was the happiest I've ever been after distancing myself from all that alphabet mafia bullshit.

>>9965 hormone therapy for cis people to maintain optimal health while having the money for it is more common than hRT for trans people. TRT especially is given out like candy. And menopause treatment is common, which is essentially HRT regimen trans women take but for CIS women to maintain ideal levels.

>>13985 there may be some merit to this in some instances but non-binary is still a legitimate and respected gender identity anything else other than recognizing non-binary as a legit gender identity would be trying to force gender identity conformity onto individuals which is impossible

let's hear some more authoritative hot takes about what gender is from a bunch of heterosexual incel nerds who have probably never touched a girl before and probably never will

>>13996 You're right. We should hear from pure hearted homosexuals like John Money and Alfred Kinsey, and those guys in leather throw 1s at an 8 year old in drag conditioned to act like a stripped. You filthy animal.

>>13983 what it looks like to me is that you are a transgender person who also has schizophrenia and isn't taking medication for it. maybe you should talk to a psychiatrist about this stuff instead of sitting in isolation dunning-krugering all your information off the internet and presenting it to random strangers as dogmatic truth because it just sounds like word salad and absolutely nobody is with you on this.

>>13997 What I'm getting is that we shouldn't let homosexual men near transgendered medicine.

>>13991 it realllllllly is not "respected" because it isn't real. t. a transsexual >>13996 at this point, they're almost better than gender retards.

>>13991 no, transexuals do not accept you weird creeps.

>>13986 it is helpful that real transexuals can identify the creeps because they go with the woke lingo. >>13986

>>14002 >>14001 all "gender" retards are creeps. who advocates hrt for children? creeps do. even the transexuals of old knew better. time to send them to camps and cleanse the society of this terrible sickness. >>14000 sad day when incels look less bad. >>13991 >>>there may be some merit to this in some instances but non-binary is still a legitimate and respected gender identity >>>anything else other than recognizing non-binary as a legit gender identity would be trying to force gender identity conformity onto individuals which is impossible by applying 10x detard solution, i reveal... >motte: "nonbinary" is real and hekkkkkin valid >bailey: you can't force conformity take your sperg ideology and go straight to the nearest camp.

>>14003 >who advocates hrt for children? most often sports doctors for young boys with delayed puberty

>>14003 The US circumcises. Where you find circumcision, you find "gender" issues and tons of people who are just fine with child sacrifice. It really is that simple. So long as you have the circumcised and their circumcisers runnign around, you're going to have rape culture and child grooming and mutilation apologists running around. It's economic predator-parasite-prey cranked up to 11 and it all starts when the newborn is taken form the mother and strapped down for a stranger to do cock and ball torture.

>>14005 nope. it is "transgender" lobby. cute try.

>>14007 most people that receive hrt to cis men and women, and trans children are almost entirely a myth, they are not medicated, its generally just little kids dressing how they want. Spironolactone is more often prescribed as an acne drug for cis teenagers, not trans teenagers. You focus on a not existing issue because you are an easily led fool.

Niggers are gross and violent low iq apes

>>14008 >trans kids are almost entirely a myth there's a good number of at least teenagers 'transitioning' or who started transitioning as teens in ~the last ten years. Its absolutely not a myth; I've seen it and dealt with it IRL and I dont go seeking this stuff out. Murder is arguably pretty rare but everyone generally agrees that its bad. Children transitioning is also rare but I imagine we can also agree that its bad. If nothing else this whole thing is just plain dishonest and should be done away with for that. When I was in school there were kids that dressed pretty weirdly because they wanted to. But they weren't going around insisting they were girls when they werent, letalone doing so with the parents affirming and the school affirming. Now obviously there's make believe but that is clearly not taken seriously in the way that being 'transgender' is.

>>14006 Unironically this. Afterwards will have normal Brazil transsexual rates instead of elevated US groomer rates.

>>14013 >>14013 >>14013 niggers and trannies are the same people because they both rape women

>>14003 >who advocates hrt for children? I do, it would have made my life a lot more bearable if I had known at the very least about gnrh agonists or monotherapy before the age of 16 let alone taken them. instead I'm doomed to be a twinkhon forever. >>14006 I'm not circumcised and neither is the vast majority of people in my country, yet social media brainrot still reigns sovereign. meds now. >>14010 >Children transitioning is also rare but I imagine we can also agree that its bad I hate you and I hope you die >>14010 >But they weren't going around insisting they were girls when they werent, letalone doing so with the parents affirming and the school affirming. the mere fact you give a single soykaf about how language is used proves its power. you are no better than every other liberal screeching about identity politics because it's a group signifier. believe it or not trannies have real material concerns that have nothing to do with your retarded sneeding. >>14014 kill yourself asap

>>14015 >I'm not circumcised and neither is the vast majority of people in my country, yet social media brainrot still reigns sovereign. meds now. I would have accepted your take if you didn't compulsively tack that retarded phrase on the end.

>>14014 > they both rape women cis women so fragile now that trans women having sex with cis men is called raping cis women now

>>14010 Medical issues are between families, their doctors and their children. If you care so much about the mutilation of kids organs by doctors speak up for intersex kids, circumcision, forced hormones and blockers for “puberty complications”. The truth is you just want to target and sexualize a minority. Also a little weird how all the laws protecting “the transing of kids” is actually targeted at adults up to the age of 25

>>14018 Child molestation is per-capita almost exclusively a cisgender white man crime. Once you control for conviction rates vs rate-of-guilt differences, it becomes almost exclusively cisgender white men. Men are 50% of the population and yet commit the vast majority of every criminal category except for one: prostitution, ie the crime of being victimized by men. And yet, you people never talk about how moids need to be kicked out of the country or thrown in asylums.

>>9965 Here is a list of things you should delve into learning more about, all with low androgenic properties trans women / femboys / twinkdeath-avoiders would want to dodge (some with high anabolic properties). Obviously get your levels tested regularly if you're changing your hormones yourself. Estradiol enanthate - Estradiol enanthate is longer lasting than the more popular estradiol valerate, meaning more stable levels. Progesterone - Preserves sex drive, avoid weird looking cone-tits, unless you're into that. Also takes the edge off stimulants. DHEA - Anti-aging, also a nootropic. Enobosarm - Muscle growth. Oxandrolone - More muscle growth. Hormones are your body's communication system. Any actual biohacking should, reasonably, target that communication system. Peak nootropics larp back in the day was very dogshit and mostly washed out the correct route: hormones + neuroprotectives + stimulants. I didn't link suppliers or sourcing, but google is your friend and everything listed here can be bought in the US without a prescription, on the indexable web's grey-markets.

>>14020 >>14020 >>14020 most of the criminal men are black Niggers

>>14021 Thanks lainon. I'm not OP but, actual good advice there.

>>14019 don't get me wrong I think the world would be a better place if all the trans stuff were obliterated. The fact that one point is bad doesn't reduce the awfulness of the rest. Naturally laws about kids effect more than just the kids. If you, I think reasonably, prevent lets say public libraries from hosting drag events, you to a significant degree mostly effect adults who are much of the audience for these things and the ones putting them on. This might be done in the name of 'protecting children' but obviously the effect is fairly vast. >medical issues are between families, their doctors, and their children. This might be a fair stand to take, but it is not the system we live in. Its fairly often and fairly easy that for instance the mothers divorce the husband and wind up with considerable independant authority over the kid. Furthermore there are practices that are all but required like vaccinations, which at least where I'm from you need to attend school. Of course we had the coronachan mess. Clearly the government has a say in medical issues.

>>14024 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOLmsujUqdY

>>14020 >Child molestation is per-capita almost exclusively a cisgender white man crime. Once you control for conviction rates vs rate-of-guilt differences, it becomes almost exclusively cisgender white men. That's a sneaky way of saying "women just don't get caught". Transgender creeps are well known for their tastes in young flesh. >>14008 >You focus on a not existing issue because you are an easily led fool. I volunteered at a private clinic. Children get hrt and fast tracked for surgery at 18. Stop lying about it not happening. Also comparing trans bs to corrective procedures to normalize a defective development is exactly how we got here. Transgender people and weird little bender fuarrrks get the wall.

>>14028 The issue of trans freaks being into kids is VERY WELL DOCUMENTED. check out the Stinkditch part of kiwi farms. >inb4 iew kiwi they got evidence, screenshots. let the proof be your guiding light. i have met enough f2f to know the mask does slip for even the most outspoken activist. just pay attention. If you have children, talk to them about transgender predators before somebody else does.

>>14029 You can find weirdos of all stripes and creeds and keep tabs on them, it doesn’t prove anything, it just shows you enjoy stalking creeps online

>>14030 why are they all creeps then?

>>14031 Why would a forum dedicated to tracking weirdos be posting not weirdos?

>>14030 >You have all types among all people teehee No, it makes logical sense.

>>14028 Hilarious low-IQ response. Women lack desire, as does anyone else with standard female hormones. The impact of hormones on the brain, especially sex drive, is massive. Testosterone is the rape-and-violence hormone. You aren't going to say women are avoiding getting caught because they're smarter because you hate women too much to say that. Instead, you'll want to argue it's because women are seen as less aggressive and less likely to rape. You'll turn your brain off before you figure out why women are seen that way in the first place though.

>>14034 No, they're absolutely smarter.

>>14039 it sincerely baffles me that anyone unlucky enough to have been born with XY chromosomes wouldn't do everything in their power to become the self evidently superior gender

>>14040 sounds like a fundamentally retarded activity. up there with being any other type of soykaf lord. behold! your soykaf, and you are the lord.

>>14028 So you are telling me you work at one of the clinics that medicates the total of 5 trans children that exist in the us that are getting cross sex hormones? I just don’t believe you

>>9973 >They don't. You are turning 30 and start to look like one, worry not it's what women of that age are looking for and it make you more employable. The ride start at 40. ??? >>11728 Why do people assume youthful looks are automatically feminine?

>>14034 Nta but female sexual predators are underreported alot more than you think Also, estrogen is actually responsible for sex drive

>>14044 >Also, estrogen is actually responsible for sex drive This. I've been chain smoking some nicotiana rustica (7-9x the nictoine) which is a potent aromatase inhibitor in the brain particularly. Much lower sex drive. I think estrogen is also responsible for some aspects of psi because I feel more motivated in certain ways but way dumber in others.

>>14028 There are more cishet sexual predators than tranny sexual predators. In fact alot of trans are victims of sexual assault from cishet folk >>14034 >Women lack desire No offense but your very naive. Women arent asexual. They just don't pursue sex the way men do.

>>14034 >>14040 The cognitive dissonance is genuinely impressive. You're obviously running on E or blockers. By your own logic, you should be the gentlest soul in this thread. Instead, you're dropping "kys" everywhere, while crying about being a fuarrrking "twinkhon". If testosterone is the "rape and violence hormone", what exactly is your excuse? Your own fuarrrking parents are forced by biology to tolerate you, and it's clear even them visibly struggle. Imagine how worthless you must be. You claim tons of soykaf on women, yet you're desperately cosplaying as one while frothing at the mouth. You don't want to be a woman, you want a victim badge to excuse your failure of existence. Your entire manifesto is a mirror of your own self. If you killed yourself, your parents would finally rest well. Seethe and cope, beast. Don't forget to take your meds.

HRT is the total opposite to the hairy, black creature that hides in the bushes and eats KFC and chugging kool aid. Altering ones hormones to a noble state is an act of purity.

>>14048 uncontrolled strength is better contrasted with controlled strength, not weakness. If you wanted to be weak and passive you'd take the trutrans ultimate step and kill yourself

why so much (trans)woman hate lain?

>>14047 ita of >>14040 >By your own logic, you should be the gentlest soul in this thread where in this thread was it claimed that women are gentle >Your own fuarrrking parents are forced by biology to tolerate you they are not >and it's clear even them visibly struggle projection >you want a victim badge I want no such thing, I will triumph and you will not >If you killed yourself, your parents would finally rest well. the fact that they would not has prevented me from doing it on several occasions >Seethe and cope, beast. Don't forget to take your meds. you too <3

>>14049 true transexuals never suicide. you mixed us up with tuqutes

>>14053 isnt the whole argument for transsexualism that without complete successful transition and acceptance trannies will be miserable depressed and probably kill themselves and so its defensible to make what seem like insane medical decisions in the interest of saving the persons life?

>>14054 The most retarded argument possible, but yes, it is the more common one.

>>14053 >tuqutes What could be the meaning to this new shiny internet terminology :) Oh i wonder :)

>>14054 maybe if you're a doctor, but no self respecting tranny gives a soykaf about that >>14056 it's not even close to new, truscum retards have been around for a long time

Idpol ideologues are soykafting up Lainchan so much. No one is forcing you to post in this thread and it isnt even about transsexuals to begin with.

>>14059 sorry, tucutes are trying to "forcefem" OP. but you're right, this soykaf is awful.

>>14059 A lot of us are really sick of tranny and LGBT identity bullshit everywhere.

>>14061 too bad. if you didn't want this to happen you should have just let men become women and women become men without inventing a word for it. if you invent a word to categorize people, like "transgender" or "queer" or "black", and then you reify the category into an identifying label to dehumanize and marginalize them, they will eventually claim ownership of the identifier for themselves and what was meant to be a judenstern armband gets reappropriated into a unifying banner. the shoe is on the other foot now and you have no one to blame but yourself.

>>14062 >if you didn't want to have bizzare perverts and their insanity reign you should have just capitulated immediately the first time they asked to completely reform the language. And the second I guess and the third and fourth times too.

>>14063 people have been dressing and acting and identifying as the opposite of their assigned gender since forever, long before some western cishet psychologists invented words for it in the 20th century. the people doing it didn't invent any word for it, they just did it. mainstream society and its prestigious intellectuals invented the word, categorized the behavior, created the demarcation between the normal and the other. you made your bed, you sleep in it.

>>14064 Logic and language are not two sides of the same coin, nor are they interchangeable. Language is not the sole origin of perception and behavior. You can be bounded by things which are unnamed and ineffable.

>>14054 if you're a tranny and you know it why the fuarrrk should you give a single soykaf about opinions of others except inasmuch as that might be required to convince some doctor to perform a procedure on you? >>14059 it literally is are you retarded. >>14060 op was either a repper or a troll. >>14065 based anti-positivist lain swooping in to post something completely irrelevant further diluting an already pointless thread.

>>14065 >“If you cain’t name something you cain’t claim it. You cain’t talk about it even. You cain’t say what it is.” - Outer Dark it is the m.o. of the establishment to use language to name things it does not understand and then reify their names as the things themselves, giving themselves a sense of understanding while knowing absolutely nothing.

>>14068 That's because norm!es are NPCs, basically LLM biobots. Those tricks don't work well if at all on real people.

>>14064 sure OK maybe but those people even if they're dressing as women, if they're men they're men. Maybe we don't need to invent the word 'transgender' or 'transsexual', but if they ask us to redefine the words 'male' and 'female', 'he' and 'she', this is ludicrous.

>>14070 ah yes, you must be referring to the ancient akkadians who famously defined the words 'man' and 'woman' based on karyotype

>>14071 no one cares about chromosomes you retard and you don't need them to define man and woman, which are categories eminently obvious in all cases where disease is absent.

>>14071 Imagine thinking you can have sex with men and just tell yourself it's a woman.

>>14066 >op was either a repper or a troll nta but that isn't for you to determine, it is no excuse to troon a guy.

seeing as this thread has degenerated into idpol... would people feel better about troons if the pronoun soykaf was dropped? forget the "muh gender" bs, and just see this all as extreme bodymod or transhumanist? i think the "transgender ideology" phrase is revealing of what people are objecting to. let's assume that we retrain rights from "gender is hekkin valid" to "you may modify your body and not be discriminated". no special "you MUST respect muh pronouns" soykaf, just freedom to do whatever to your body. how would people feel about this reframing? the reason for this is op literally is only talking about bodymod. but everybody is preloaded to see this as a whole tranny issue. imho, that's fuarrrking stupid for a cyberpunk ib. so, how does lain feel about a possible change in this mode?

>>14075 >would people feel better about troons if the pronoun soykaf was dropped? No. It's their militant and obnoxious behavior being made omnipresent. They also have siege mentality and other "leftist" behaviors like feigning ignorance and playing meek when small and tyrannical when big.

>>14075 >would people feel better if the pronoun stuff was dropped? Personally I think there's several linguistic upheavals demanded by the lgbt band; pronouns, 'man/woman', marriage, and parent titles most prominently. If all of these points were dropped, I think people would feel better about them because these are some of the more in your face attacks against sanity put forth by this group. On the other hand, if they're still doing 'drag queen story hour' at the public library, its certainly not a complete elimination of the offending parts of lgbt culture, but a partial one is still a victory. These redefinition are not without consequence, its essential to note that law is to some degree built out of words and redefining them is very significant. A 'transwoman' who is universally recognized as a woman does not have to for instance sign up for the draft. A lot of people are rather offended by the 'men in womens' sports' problem, and this is at root a linguistic problem; because of the insistence that transwomen are women, its natural that transwomen, if they're to participate in sport (and why shouldn't they?), will participate in womens' sports. Maintain the definition as its been since time immemorial, and this problem is eliminated. This isn't merely a situation with transsexuals; homosexual marriage is an oxymoron by conventional definitions. If we accept that there are no homosexual marriages then you also likely remove a large amount of the homosexual adoption of children, another point at which many people find offense, and again, in some significant sense a linguistic problem, or a problem with linguistic root. If you remove all of these I do not think that trannies will be generally accepted in polite society anymore than people who get silicone horns embedded in their foreheads, but the silicone horn type people while they do exist, seem to keep to themselves much more, and significantly did not seem to be exploding in influence and power. Maybe if we had silicone horn enthusiasts in congress arguing to redesign military goggles and helmets to accommodate silicone horn headshape diversity, they'd feel a greater degree of popular animosity.

reason enough to alter ones body. maybe we are too ignorant. >>14077

>>14075 I personally would feel a lot better about it. I don't want to be imposed upon, and I don't think it's healthy to engage in gender stereotyping. We are individuals first and foremost. I've found myself treated as stereotypically masculine by transgender people, despite being, well, an individual.

>>14076 You really can't prevent obnoxious people from being obnoxious. There's a huge comorbidity (a technical term, not a value statement) of autism-spectrum neuroatypicality when it comes to transgenderism. That's not something that can be helped. Let me be tautological here: what you can do is to not engage with people you find obnoxious, just the same as you do not engage with any people you find obnoxious. I don't know what laws relate to marriage in your country, but it's typically a legal status that gives certain affordances to partners. The legal definition is the only meaningful definition we should discuss. The archetypal issue is a partner having to make medical decisions for their better half, who is in a coma. In countries where homosexuality is frowned upon, the decision otherwise falls on biological family, which may well not have the patients best interests in mind. Partners are inherently closer than family. I imagine the real issue you take is that of economic incentives intended for people who marry to have children. Those are separate issues to the ability to represent your partner, though. This is is off topic, but I'm curious to see how you respond. For what it's worth, this is just an imageboard, and nobody is going to throw you in jail for saying that you simply view homosexuals as adversaries if that's the case.

>>14080 >You really can't prevent obnoxious people from being obnoxious. I can try.

>>14080 Not the guy you're replying to, I think I'll just say that the very definition of marriage excludes homosexual partnerships. I'm not convinced the government should have any involvement whatsoever with marriage, but if they do, they should not redefine it in ridiculous ways.

>>14082 my analogy would be birth certificates. Births existed before any government, it is merely a thing which happens. For reasons right or wrong, its been decided that the government should issue certificates of birth. Doubtless some certificates have been issued when there is no birth, and doubtless some births have occurred for which there is no certificate, but if we're in agreement that the government should do this, we should hope and work toward having as low an error as possible. Suppose some group comes up with a slightly peculiar definition of birth. We can argue that baptism is a death and a birth, for instance; “We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead, we too may live a new life.” (Romans 6:4). Naturally one might argue, that at a baptism they would like a death certificate and a new birth certificate. But this is ridiculous. Likewise for marriage. Marriage is real, and has existed since before all of these governments and certificates and whatnaught. Should the government decide to issue some document at the occurrence of a marriage, let us likewise try to avoid issuing such documents except when the event has actually occurred.

>>14082 I'm the lainon you are replying to. Secularization is fine by me. The government certainly has an interest in incentivizing marriage, though. Thus, they'll want to get involved regardless. What matters is that people should be able to enter into legal contracts with people as they see fit, and that those legal contracts not be beholden only to certain groups.

>>14080 I don't care about the sanctity of marriage or the language involved. I think homosexuals have malformed brains and this tends to correlate with other behaviors. I don't think they should be allowed to adopt nor do I think society needs to be rearranged for them. Marriage itself is already weaponized, it doesn't need to be debased or quietly broadened to be "my fave person rite now" on top of it. Homosexuals aren't inherently adversaries but a lot of the louder one's among them are obnoxious and should be silenced. Their nature and behavior has been out in the open long enough to study and characterize, now they aren't needed and can go back to being quiet and unseen. Furthermore they're just a bridge to transhumanism, which itself if a pretext for mass sterilization and depopulation.

>>14075 >would people feel better no, they wouldn't. these people will never feel better. if all the trans people and gay people and brown people and feminists and jews died they would not feel better. if they became immortal wealthy lords living in a utopian eugenicist society on mars with elon musk and peter thiel they would not feel better. if the women they unrequitedly pined for showed up at their doors and married them and bore their children they would not feel better. if their parents called them and apologized for everything they did to them and told them that they loved them they would not feel better. they are trying to get water from a dry well.

>>14075 You know, you're right. Even though I've argued in here against this tranny soykaf, I quite literally do not fit in the mental model >>14087 has of me. And we ended up ignoring the OP's reasonings and decided to discuss politics. Identity politics is just a way to divide even further the working class. I will very much argue against most tranny delusions, but would never be against they doing whatever they want to themselves. The problem is the discourse leads us to talk past each other, forget we are all of the same class, and fight even though we share the same enemies, and likely the same goals. I hate how this supposedly emancipatory vector called internet just divides us more.

>>14087 this response is incoherent. try again. >>14077 >Personally I think there's several linguistic upheavals demanded by the lgbt band; pronouns, 'man/woman', marriage, and parent titles most prominently. If all of these points were dropped, I think people would feel better about them because these are some of the more in your face attacks against sanity put forth by this group. On the other hand, if they're still doing 'drag queen story hour' at the public library, its certainly not a complete elimination of the offending parts of lgbt culture, but a partial one is still a victory. this should've been seen as implied. ultimately you all just have reaponded to the thought experiment in bad faith. either moving goal posts, expanding scope, or changing the subject. just admit you hate transwomen, and delete the thread. clearly estrogen is a civilization-destroying substance, and cyberpunks are a bunch of luddite retards who aren't interested in expanding their worldview or allowing different perspectives. that's de facto fascist thinking. even if you're not a fascist, you're thinking like one. either way, this whole thread is a waste. more rot. all the tranny hate is crazy, and you're all too childish to stay on topic. good luck OP, don't ask lain for advice, you'll get nothing but hate and retards.

>>14088 i appreciate your singular positive response.

>>14075 > freedom to do whatever to your body. how would people feel about this reframing? the future of body mod and "body choice" (if there's any) is about being ignored out of disgust or being actively chased upon, not "being accepted". the time when society passively accepts anything is coming to an end, because when variety is a thing there's no point to contentment. transexuals are the stepping stone that will refuse to realize this. they want to be unequivocally accepted because there's currently no competition in meatspace. however, even meatspace is sick and tired of accepting.

>>14091 >because when variety is a thing there's no point to contentment. meaningless and false. the fact idiots rally around the idea that they like to be their stock parts cis self is evidence. the difference is soykafwads like you make it a problem and then argue like this in bad faith. fuarrrk off retard.

>>14088 >Identity politics is just a way to divide even further the working class. working class is an identity. you're just trying to divide the human race by talking about the working class. people are all the same and endure all the same hardships regardless of whether they are poor or they are billionaires. why do you have to divide people into class like a discriminatory bigot can't we all just get along?

>>14092 i was almost going to ask you to explain why is that self evidence, but then i see you getting mad black and calling a no one a retard while complaining about arguing in bad faith. you better lurk more if you want to fit in. this is no blue board.

>>14096 Anyone using the phrase "working class" is most certainly not "working class" anyway.

the privileged majority divided up human society into arbitrary categories and stamped labels on them to dehumanize them and exclude them from sharing in the commons, now that the tables are beginning to turn on them they want to pretend like they never did this and that they are tolerant peace-loving hippie liberals who just want to join hands across the world and sing kumbaya. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=409Pjtq7jzY

>>14097 lainchan has always been more left than right you manlet

>>14099 Chuckled. .................

another thing, you rightoids always assume that everyone who criticizes you is coming at it from a moral angle, that we're all bleeding hearts governed by emotion who can't deal with harsh logical reality. i can't speak for other people, but i don't have a bleeding heart and i don't care about people suffering or dying, i just enjoy causing trouble. whenever i see people try to weasel out of things and twist reality with their words and make up phony stories to make themselves feel better, whenever i see people try to have their cake and eat it too like spoiled little children who have to get everything they want, whenever i see a flimsy structure with obvious cracks in it that nobody wants to talk about, i want to throw rocks at it. i don't do it out of some sense of justice or wanting to be some kind of hero who fixes the world, i don't even really think about it at all; i just do it compulsively because it is fun. it is fun to find something that is really big and dominant and imposing and taken for granted but has some fundamental structural weakness that you can throw rocks at to make the whole thing shudder or even collapse. it's extremely exciting and rewarding to shatter people's delusions and point out their lies and hypocrisies and expose their secret shames and insecurities and watch them collapse into a narcissistic meltdown, it never ceases to be entertaining and the possibilities for doing it are practically endless. it is art, a very pure and raw and visceral kind of art and i enjoy it immensely.

>>14103 >another thing, you wingoids always assume that everyone who criticizes you is coming at it from a moral angle, We don't. We know that it's just a game to disguise a devouring instrumentalism and totalitarian thinking. At the lower levels it's just the death drive, urge to destroy to be rid of oneself. I don't think this is particularly esoteric, it's considered quite established.

>>14097 the substance of >>14092 is correct. you need to explain yourself or at least reapond to >the fact idiots rally around the idea that they like to be their stock parts cis self is evidence. the point is being bland average is always seen as better by most people. outliers are always shunned to some degree.

>>14106 Outliers are trinkets till they're too burdensome to maintain.

>>14103 >we're all bleeding hearts governed by emotion who can't deal with harsh logical reality are you the over lord to define others emotions? The main thing with libsharts is : Their entire mind operates on Psychological trauma courses. Its like they get raped with 7h corporate emotion telling on whiteboards every day under the sun, so all that comes out of them is : this >>14103

>>14089 >this should have been seen as implied >ultimately you all just have reaponded to the thought experiment in bad faith. either moving goal posts, expanding scope, or changing the subject. look buddy I walk through my reasoning and discuss the actual implications of dropping 'the pronoun stuff', which would radically alter the ideology of the group. I'll freely admit I hate transgenderism and hope that the people involved in it can come to their senses. >estrogen is a civilization destroying substance Non sequitur and nonsensical, but for what its worth healthy people, male and female are essential to civilization and healthy people implies some presence of estrogen. Estrogen in the form of pills creams injections and the like, however, is certainly not necessary.

>>14108 >The main thing with libsharts is you keep telling yourself that, that your enemies who torment you are all just spoiled harmless liberals putting on a show doing some moral grandstanding, that none of them are hungry crazed wolves who have no ideology and just want to take what they want by force and having nothing to lose by trying.

>>14111 Responding to retards who think it's still 2016 by intimating that you're actually a better fascist than them (and probably have a bigger dick as well) is a new one to me, gonna go in my playbook

>>14101 >i say blue board >thinks i'm talking about democrats oh my god you americans. i can't believe you always think about politics. if there's a god i hope he has mercy on your soul.. lmao

>>14111 The HR department has turned to edgy rhetoric. You must be helpless to snap that way.

Let's be clear: the early internet ideals were somewhere between liberal and libertarian. Freedom of information empowering the individual. That does not land neatly on the left-right spectrum. >>14093 I've been here on and off for a decade, not being the most active poster or reader. But what has happened here is either psyops or this chan going the way that 4chan has gone (which also was a documented psyop - see MLYP's "How Banning Hentai From A Comedy Forum Ruined The World", but the legwork was done by average joes); the group is not effectively ostracizing those who come in and have nothing in common with the group. Additionally, it upholds the suicidal ideal of allowing very free speech and a difference in opinions. In a space where people feel comfortable acting in ways that are not socially acceptable even in the context of the space, you need to enforce group culture or they will shift the culture and attract more of themselves. That's what happened with the election tourists of 2016; why we have people on a site with hacker culture now condemning Snowden. An intellectually honest nationalist would agree with the idea of ousting those who do not belong. tl;dr hand out some bans already

>>14115 >why we have people on a site with hacker culture now condemning Snowden. Snowden is an obvious limited hangout psyop.

>>14116 <svg width="100%" viewBox="0 0 680 680" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"> <circle cx="340" cy="340" r="300" fill="#0b0a8f"/> <circle cx="340" cy="340" r="210" fill="#ffffff"/> <circle cx="340" cy="340" r="165" fill="#6dc4ef"/> <circle cx="340" cy="340" r="75" fill="#150d1f"/> </svg>

>>14117 Are you testing whether I'm a bot or something?

>>14115 free speech is a dogwhistle, and meant to enable the right. if you want this then go away nazi

>>14118 the cryptic must contact your prolapse. when you try to press the anus onto the monitor it will unveal the truth.

>>14120 So boring. ..................

>>14115 people using 'mental illness' as a slur in the lain/rd laing themed image board is crazy work

>>14122 Anyone who does the hurr durr get help / schizo stuff I assume aren't real posters.

I came here from Kohlchan.net why is your thread so gay

>>14123 i use 'schizo' as a complement and an indication of brotherhood.

>>14125 Stop doing that too. It's not endearing or a negative identity to adopt and invert.

>>14126 spoken like a true schizo

>>14126 it is in contemporary human nature to romanticize abnormal people. why should i go against it?

>>14128 Have some foresight. Act, not react.

>>14129 what do you foresee as the consequences of my reactions? or is the problem here that what i'm doing is inconsequential and therefore, meaningless? but rejection of meaningless things leads to lack of happiness. it's no use trying to completely suppress non-rational desires. instead, we should find balance between non-rational and rational desires.

>>14130 I just barely told you that I and most "schizos" hate what you're doing. You're just attracting norm!es to larp as schizos and play all the little games they always do. Stop using dumb words or thinkin you're smart for wearing insults as a badge of honor.

>>14131 im curious. >play all the little games they always do what do you mean by these

>>14132 I don't really have the energy for in depth or long form explanation at the moment. Basically there are 3 rings. The outermost are the norm!es, they just want something to do, some stability, and to feel seen and belonging. The middle ring are the users. They know the language and get real good at playing the game to exploit the hierarchy and get what they middle. The innermost are the architects, the gamemakers who understand the creation from the outside. whenever this forms certain behaviors emerge in accordance with the types. Identity play is one of them. It is a degenerate and filthy tangled web which you do not want to be part of. When you say "schizo" you are putting on an identity, you are saying "this is what we're doing now, I want my plce, my role, this is who I am withina nd amongst you." Then I AM becomes WE ARE. This is what we are doing. It's stupid as fuarrrk to go down that road. Real schizos know better and leave them to it, but don't put those words on me thinking you're being cute.

>>14125 reframing neuroatypicalities from "thing that dangerous people what we put in institutions have" to "a set of symptoms that all people express to certain degrees" is an improvement. use terminology with respect (this is the key part - they're assuming you won't) and you'll be fine, don't even waste your breath on people who tell you that you aren't allowed to do this. I'm able to educate people about neuroatypicialities when they say something incorrect about them. I'm not able to educate them when they're clammed up on the topic because it's not PC to discuss in any way whatsoever. I'm speaking as someone with easily measureable, non-visible handicaps. as for larping, it's going to happen regardless. when the "new" thing that people learned about is just a part of the collective conscious, it won't be any more attractive to larp about than anything else.

>>14131 can you state why do you and 'schizos' hate it? what is bad about it that makes you hate it? i want to understand what is wrong with my behavior, how does it harm anyone? if you do not have explicit understanding of how you are harmed by it, that's fine, and i'm sorry you felt so. but it's not going to change my behavior, and you should have some reasons for hate if you say that not only you but 'schizos' also hate it.

>>14134 i see and agree / observe this often enough. It reminds me of gustav le bon on the masses. He described the enormous swings in mentality, which happen as a sort of play, never taken serious by the actors. How does one destroy such, by providing a devastating act / role for n-rmies to play, which causes sever damage/annihilation to its executor.

>>14135 I've already explained it repeatedly.

>>14137 it seems to me that you haven't. you said what the consequences of my behavior will be. based on the context, i can safely assume that you consider these consequences harmful in some way. but that's not answering my question at all. my question is, why do you consider these consequences harmful? i don't possess the same values as you. or i'm not clever enough to see the harm of these consequences on my own. either way, it's not obvious to me what do you find wrong about the consequences of my behavior.

You can be a femboy without hormones. >skin care >appropriate dieting, hydration and supplements >exercising the right way (cardio, stretching, weight training with an emphasis on glutes/legs + pilates or yoga, et cetera) >laser hair removal >feminine clothing >hairstyle >posture training You can be a strong dude with high test and a good shape without hormones. >appropriate dieting, hydration and supplements >heavyweight training (compound exercises and so on) >get some sun >cold showers >lots of sleep You probably don't want to mess with feminine hormones if you don't want to become an actual trans woman. C'mon, learn to appreciate the process. Natural body transformation is cool and fun. Be healthy.