/chem/ - Chemistry

Let's have a thread about chemistry. I can't be the only amateur chemist on here. To please the mods, everything in here is purely academic. Check local laws before you embark on your projects. And before you do anything, make sure you have appropriate safety equipment. Think about the worst thing that could happen to your reaction, because chances are it will. Don't be stupid. Resources https://www.sciencemadness.org/ The go-to site for amateur chemists Wiki: http://www.sciencemadness.org/smwiki/index.php/Main_Page Forums, require email registration: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/ Archive.org has plenty of old chemistry textbooks. The most useful ones for me are those meant to teach youngsters from the early 1900's. YouTube NurdRage, the OG channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/NurdRage NileRed, the internet's premier piss chemist: https://www.youtube.com/user/TheRedNile NileBlue, secondary channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1D3yD4wlPMico0dss264XA Explosions&Fire, energetic materials: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVovvq34gd0ps5cVYNZrc7A Extractions&Ire, secondary channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvFApMFo_AafXbHRyEJefjA Cody'sLab, chemistry and physics: https://www.youtube.com/user/theCodyReeder ChemistNATE, educational: https://www.youtube.com/user/chemistNA

Of the modern, widely used, good introductory chemistry textbooks, Tro is the easiest, then Zumdahl. Brown is harder.

When etching copper clad boards in ferric chloride, is it important to keep the vessel with it open to air? In every guide I've seen the process is done in open vessel, but it would be more convenient to me to close it.

Is there anything you want to discuss?

Where do I start with theory of chemistry, if I only know very basic things? Like, I would need to relearn most of high school level chemistry first. Are there any chemistry books that would be a good choice for someone like me?

>>12717 I'm below this. I never had chemistry in my schools.

>>12710 It looks like the ferric chloride is regenerated in the presence of oxygen so maybe but Idon'tsee that the reaction evolves any explosive gasses so it seems like you could try it. >>12717 Honestly chemistry can be pretty dangerous. In labs there are professionals dedicated to managing the risks. At home you are on your own and doing that without any mentors may not be a good choice. Strong acids and basses and volatile solvents are pretty common in even rudimentary chemistry and all have the potential to change your life over a simple mistake. That said it depends on what you want to do and I don't want to be a downer. If you are just looking for theory you would typically do gen chem then Organic chemistry, and analytical chemistry. At that point you would probably have the theory for most of what you'd like to do but not having lab experience is definitely going to be a hindrance to actually doing any of it. As for learning those things pirate textbooks. I don't remember where it is used but you will need solid Algebra and later multidimensional calculus but I don't recall if that is necessary for the subjects I listed. Doctors typically take two years of chemistry and are not competent chemists so it's an ambitious target.

>>12717 personally I think the question is kinda what do you want to do ? Its a huge field and there are a lot of people in specialized niches who know very little about the spaces outside their field. I recall reading David M Klein's Organic Chemistry as a Second language and finding it a pleasant enough intro at least to that sphere of things. If you just want to be a fun hobbyist you can go on science madness and try to find some project you'd be interested in doing, and then try to figure out what is acutally going on and how to do it and do it obviously be sensibly careful hobby chemists do die from time to time but most things are reasonably safe if you think things through and take precautions

>>12710 Oxygen dissolving into your FeCl will regenerate its oxidising potential, but it will increase the pH too, producing insoluble products. You can neutralise this by adding HCl, but that dilutes the iron ions. If you really want to regenerate your etchant ad infinitum, use a platinum anode and copper cathode to pull the copper back out of solution while oxidising the Fe2+ into Fe3+. Do it slow enough that you don’t make chlorine gas, leaving 0.1A through it for weeks is probably safe. Once the copper is gone, the cathode will just reduce iron back to Fe2+, so there’s nothing wrong with letting it run for too long. If there’s dissolved oxygen, the electrolysis may split some of that O2 back out if it’s basic enough, but I don’t know. The main problem you’ll run into is copper dendrites shorting the cell out. I’m planning on buying some chemical resistant PCTG filament and printing a reaction vessel and stepper-based peristaltic pump that I can rely on to run for weeks. The etchant being jetted downwards should prevent any dendrites from reaching the anode, or dislodging them if they reach too high anyhow. If the system loses power, the pump will turn off and the FeCl will passively drain down from the electrodes into a lower vessel, preventing the copper cathode from being etched. I’ll see about sensing cell voltage/current to determine the state of the reaction, or even adding a reference electrode of some sort. I what would it take to electrolyse HBr?

>>12781 Sure it can be dangerous but isnt there a way to avoid the more dangerous chemicals and reactions since often there is more than one way to synthesize?

Actual chemist here. My area of expertise is organic synthesis so I can't help some of you. >>12717 >>12718 Depends on how deep you wanna go, but here's a little list: >General Chemistry by Peter Atkins >Chemistry: The Central Science by a bunch of authors >Qualitative Analytical Chemistry, by Vogel (this is gonna be your practical book) And if you're real serious about actually understanding what's actually happening instead of just doing it, there's: >Molecular Quantum Mechanics, by Atkins and Friedman If a lot of math isn't your cup of joe, that's fine. A lot of advisors I've had don't bother with that or when they do they partner up with someone from theoretical/computational chemistry instead of learning it themselves. [spoiler]Actually that's a problem with most organic chemists, they're afraid of numbers, but that's nor here nor there.[/spoiler] From there on you pick your poison and choose what area you're gonna go with. >>12783 >David M Klein's Organic Chemistry as a Second language Great book. A couple of others good ones for organic chemist are: >Organic Chemistry, by Clayden, Greeves, Warren and Wothers >Organic Chemistry, by Fleming >Organic Chemistry, by Brown >Modern Organic Physical Chemistry, by Anslyn (if you're doing synthesis, do read something on physical chemistry and kinetics) >March's Advanced Organic Chemistry, by Michael Smith (that's my bible, I always reference it. Doesn't drag on too long so might not be ideal for learning it the first time around, but has a lot of content if you already know it and just need to remember something.) >>12807 Look up Green Chemistry. Doing exactly that is what we're trying to do on the synthesis side of things. Sometimes the yield isn't as good or it requires some specialised equipment to do it without bringing out the big toxic. I've had some success with alternative methods like micro-wave radiation and the like. Back when MW was all the rage there were some papers detailing how to convert a domestic MW oven into a MW reactor (not advising you do that, just saying there's info on it out there). The toxicity of the solvent is the bigger issue, most of the time, because that's the one you're using in larger amounts. Ages ago we used benzene for a lot of stuff and that has since been substituted by toluene, most of the time that's fine but there are some things only benzene can really do. And of course, you're the one who chooses what you want to do. If a synthesis is beyond your knowledge level and your lab equipment, just don't do it or do it in very small scale. Remember to look up how to store your reagents and solvents BEFORE producing/acquiring them. Even in academia people forget that all the time.

>>12807 Yes, you can avoid the more dangerous ones but the ones I mentioned are actually the less dangerous ones and you'd be hard pressed to avoid them. Realistically any lab should have gloves, goggles labcoats, good ventilation run with brushless motors, spill containment supplies, a safety shower, eyewash station, flame cabinets, a solvent safe fridge and freezer, and firefighting supplies. That's before any of the chemicals or equipment and it adds up to a lot of money and probably a lot of unwanted attention. So, probably you won't actually have a safe lab to work in. If you combine that with not really having the expertise to asses how dangerous what you are doing is and why, you end up with meth labs that explode (and that being said I bet most people making meth do have mentorship in the process). All that said. I'm not trying to tell you not to do it. It's just really ambitious and you should be aware of that

>>12809 Analytical Chemist here. I would love to do some synthesis at home but getting everything together and access to reagents seems prohibitive. You have any thoughts?

>>12813 >getting everything together Most of the old stuff is based around heating and stirring. If you can do that you're good. If you can cover the heating part of it without an open flame you're golden. >reagents Depends on what exactly you need. A lot of solvents you can get from hardware stores or distilling other commercial products (and you better learn to enjoy distillations, cause you'd be doing it a lot as an amateur). The building blocks from the actual synthesis will vary wildly but some common places to get it will be drug stores and once again your hardware stores. Some stuff you can get without a loicense (depending on where you live) from AliExpress and other chink sites, the chinks just don't care. All sorts of sugars, starchs, citric acid and some of its derivatives, food additives and preservatives, vitamins, dyes, oils and etc. are all readily available if impure. You can do a lot with that. Confirming you obtained what you set out to synthesise can be tricky and you'd want a good way to measure stuff, but you probably already know that part.

>>12813 What you can easily get is quite dependent on where you are in the world, but there are plenty of good suppliers all across the world, generally speaking. Laboratory glass can be obtained second hand (garage sales, local auction sites, etc.) in some places, or via ebay. Some places have laws about glassware though, make sure to check. As for equipment besides that: A camping hotplate is a good start (will lack stirring, but might be fine at the beginning), but usually you can get magnetic stirplates with heating second hand in the 100-150$ range. Also get an aquarium pump, some silicone tubing and a water bucket for your condenser. The advice from >>12814 is solid. I would also suggest browsing food supplements stores (vitamins, amino acids) and fragrance shops (if they sell raw ingredients) as well as restauration shops (usually good solvent selections). Consider browsing sciencemadness and it's wiki as well some of the youtube channels mentioned above for where to find things or what to do. A less well-known german board is https://illumina-chemie.org/ with some really nice experimental write-ups as well.

I'm curious what Lain chemists think of the Microlab Suite created by the Four Thieves Vinegar Collective. It was created in mind to create medicine but it technically can be used for any small molecule production. It is a DIY controlled lab reactor and software to operate it and find synthesis paths to use that calls out to a remote server with a supercomputer. https://fourthievesvinegar.org/microlab-suite/ >>12809 > Look up Green Chemistry. Doing exactly that is what we're trying to do on the synthesis side of things. Interesting. Though seems the focus of this is improving the environmental impact of industrial production does this overlap with more direct application to production of medicine, food ingredients and cosmetic ingredients and the like or would that be some other field? Basically reduce the serious impact of impurities since getting completely pure would presumably be very difficult for anyone doing chemistry at home without specialized equipment. > Sometimes the yield isn't as good or it requires some specialised equipment to do it without bringing out the big toxic. I've had some success with alternative methods like micro-wave radiation and the like. Back when MW was all the rage there were some papers detailing how to convert a domestic MW oven into a MW reactor (not advising you do that, just saying there's info on it out there). I could see someone doing this. Microwaves are unfortunately pretty dangerous to dismantle though yeah. > The toxicity of the solvent is the bigger issue, most of the time, because that's the one you're using in larger amounts. Ages ago we used benzene for a lot of stuff and that has since been substituted by toluene, most of the time that's fine but there are some things only benzene can really do. I see. I heard some places in the US have derezzed the import and sale of toluene. >And of course, you're the one who chooses what you want to do. If a synthesis is beyond your knowledge level and your lab equipment, just don't do it or do it in very small scale. Fair enough. >Remember to look up how to store your reagents and solvents BEFORE producing/acquiring them. Even in academia people forget that all the time. What are some of the worst case scenarios with improper storage? >>12812 > Yes, you can avoid the more dangerous ones but the ones I mentioned are actually the less dangerous ones and you'd be hard pressed to avoid them. Is the danger in volatile solvents mainly breathing them or or is it risk of being ignited by say a static spark for example? Mentioning strong acids reminds me of that video NileRed did that YouTube deleted https://odysee.com/@NileRed:c/pouring-different-acids-on-my-hand:f >Realistically any lab should have gloves, goggles labcoats, good ventilation run with brushless motors, spill containment supplies, a safety shower, eyewash station, flame cabinets, a solvent safe fridge and freezer, and firefighting supplies. That's before any of the chemicals or equipment and it adds up to a lot of money and probably a lot of unwanted attention. So, probably you won't actually have a safe lab to work in. If you combine that with not really having the expertise to asses how dangerous what you are doing is and why, you end up with meth labs that explode (and that being said I bet most people making meth do have mentorship in the process). All that said. I'm not trying to tell you not to do it. It's just really ambitious and you should be aware of that I get it. Makes me wonder if there are many groups of people who have a setup a sort of hackerspace for chemistry as a way to get around expenses by sharing resources and having a sort of mentorship or at least oversight.

Hello lains. I am studying computer science, but I've always had a passion for chemistry and math. Are there any well-paying jobs where I can combine all these three fields while avoiding something that involves biology, healthcare, statistics and a PhD? Am I better off just learning chemistry as a side hobby?

>>13032 You could work for a company that takes NMR machines or something similar. There are very few jobs that math your criteria though.

>>13032 Certain components used in computers use chemistry such as producing semiconductors.

Bump

Where could I get a cheap hplc machine with AEX and CEX colunms.

>>13136 Or hydroponic interaction chromatography or size exclusion

Here are a couple PDFs that give pretty good overviews of (organic) chemistry.

>>12980 >microlab suite Never heard of it but seems interesting. Unfortunately the modern chemist is VERY unhandy and can't connect two wires together. >Green Chemistry It is focused on minimising the environmental impact of the chemical industry (hence the name), but a lot of the same principles end up being of use to home chemists. Things such as improving conversion are good for reducing the need for isolation and purification steps. Simplifying complex purification procedures is good because those simpler methods are more accessible. Using less toxic reagents and solvents is good due to safety reasons and also because some stuff is derezzed or controlled because of their toxicity, so the alternatives tend to be more accessible... >worst case scenarios with improper storage Shit blows up, goes up in flames, leaks and ruins everything around it... Depends a lot on what it is. Acids will not play nice with metals, it'll rust the soykaf out of them and it's always a matter of time before they leak cause the plastic caps can't survive indefinitely. In our lab the acids are stored on their own closet and all the paper is disintegrating and the metal hinges are mostly rust (we'll probably lose of those acids cause you can't read the label anymore, I've already informed people and got ignored so now I just don't care anymore, not gonna be me to pay for more stock). Organic acids are more tame, but mineral acids are a bitch, with sulphuric acid being the exception (cause it ain't volatile and stays in the flask). Alkaline metals and very strong oxidizers can go up flames if they get in contact with water. Some solvents like leak and they're very toxic to breathe (if you just start working with chemistry now, you'll notice the smell, but you nose gets addicted to it very fast and at some point you just don't notice it at all and that's when you get intoxicated). There's also the problem of stuff degrading "peacefully", which isn't dangerous but is a monetary loss. >volatile solvents Most organic solvents are flammable, some of them very much so. Most of the chlorinated ones can be absorbed through your skin too, so even if you don't breathe it you can get intoxicated.

guys use the 4chan's sci wiki for resources, it's pretty good not the best but good enough https://4chan-science.fandom.com/wiki/Chemistry_Textbook_Recommendations it also has maths, physics etc sections too my fields is mainly in maths and physics so you can also find my contributions in it, the wiki is more or less outdated now that i look back but it does its job

>>13213 >not the best but good enough Curious, what's your list of good chem textbooks?

>>13032 I'm in the same pickle as that guy. Majoring in computer science, chemistry is my passion (math not as much, but I'll tolerate it), however I am okay with everything else he said except too much biology. What should I do in the future so I can do more chemistry?

>>13229 Probably computational Biology or chemical engineering or something

>>12717 High school level chemistry can be learned in a week or even a day. Wikipedia unironically does the job but the lab stuff is important to get the full grasp of it, I think there are some online labs/yt videos.