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So I want to move, but not rent anymore. Can we have another van build thread please? I need a few things for myself. 1. Solar power and backup power source. 2. Sleeping Space 3. Mobility Im new to this but I am really excited and would like some of the old info graphs from the last thread on this.

This interests me quite a bit. One of my concerns with this type of lifestyle would be hygiene. How would you go to the bathroom and shower. The thought crossed my mind when I was going to move out in high school that i would get a 24 hr gym membership and shower there. You are still left without a toilet a majority of the time. The thought has crossed my mind to put a tiny house/ Mnfg home on a large plot of land and do that instead. What do you guys think

>>105 There are some videos on YT that go over the personal care issues of van living, also old thread had some info on this. On my country it would be almost impossible due to restrooms not being of easy access. Only malls and big stores have easy/quick access to restroom, restaurants require you to be a customer, and gas stations are run by the state and 70% of them don't have a shop that you can go in, and that ones that do have a store, over half of them don't have free WC or won't let you use it, being for employees only. In the US it would be totally possible with 24hr gym and gas stations with toilet paper/water and free access all over most medium/major cities. If you get sick or need a place to rest you could always book a hotel or cheap airbnb.

>>105 If you park by a beach, they have showers.

>>105 I've been full timing for nearly a year. I just use the gym and friends' showers. I shower at least every other day, and if I feel gross between them I use baby wipes. As for restrooms it's not exactly glamorous. I use whatever public/work/gym/friends'/school toilet is available. On the go I have 2 x 2 liter bottles that I use to piss in and empty/clean them in public toilets when convenient (about every 2-3 days). For emergency poos I have a 5 gallon bucket with a snap on toilet seat. I use 4 gallon trash bags to collect the waste so I don't get the bucket nasty. Specifically I would recommend the glad brand bags with the febreze smell killer stuff. I use glad so they're less likely to rip as I don't want to deal with leaky poo bags and febreze so it will contain the smell much better (much less bad). One time I used it and forgot about the bag for like 3 days later when the smell finally started leaking out. In the past year the piss bottles have been used countless times and I've used the poo bucket maybe 5 times, but I would never be caught without it though.

>>54 >someone else already did my stepvan RV thing. That one is really nice actually, I like that.

>get generic white van >create a fake magnetic logo for an electrical or plumbing company or something >slap it on so that you are covert and don't raise attention like a hippie VW van

>get robbed by tweakers because they think tools are inside of an insured company van Keep it clean, no logos, and follow a guide like this.

>>146 > someone made a jpg out of a chart so it must be the word of god

>>147 Good thing no one implied this. >>>/kys/

Some pictures of the components of my heating, cooling and power system components... As far as sleeping goes, I use a hammock as pictured...

Pictures of power system components continued...

and the last round of image spam.... The van is currently insulated with 2.5 inches of polyisocyanurate on the walls, ceiling and doors plus one inch on the floor. I use a 5 gallon bucket for poop. An opaque tide jug for urine, and a black vulcanized rubber feed bowl from tractor supply+ 7 gallon aquatainer with gravity as a sink. I bathe via sponge bath, and never keep waste around to cause problems. usually dispose of it in a toilet or dumpster ASAP.

I chose the dodge ram van, because it is cheap(1000 dollars cash with title and already registered and running), its parts are abundant, and it is easy to maintain with my current automotive knowledge. It has a 360 TBI style magnum 8 cylinder gas engine and a 4 speed automatic transmission with 4.11 rear gears. It averages 15 - 19 mpg and can go as high as 20 on a good day. It has a 10000 pound towing capacity and 8000 lb rear axle rating, so it is virtually impossible for me to overload its suspension or drive train with my current build plans. Also, the van had few windows to improve thermal efficiency and security, and the body structure was actually quite regular so that, as predicted, it would be conducive to easier insulation work and general interior construction. Additionally, less strain on the van chasis and drivetrain means a longer life and less maintenance, which factors into my long term cost of living calculations. Assuming everything falls within expected tolerances, I should be financially free in 3 - 5 years, and independently wealthy in 7 - 10 years. (net worth exceeding 1 mil, with enough disposable income annually to further my prime objective.) Here is to the long haul lains. Who knows, maybe I will paint "Unit -01 " on the side just for kicks.

Here are some more photos of the outside and from before the build, for fun.

>>155 some pictures from after the wall construction...

>>157 Aluminum angles and screws would probably hold and look better than duct tape.

>>157 I hope you put in some sort of insulation between the boards and that cold cold metal chassis. IDK what is safe to put there but good insulation is worth more than just the comfort. It can prevent water damage from condensation. Although I'd at least check what type of insulation is acceptable in that environment. It could be that crumpled newspaper is OK, but you don't want to be wrong about that. Also I hope that duck tape is temporary and you follow the advice of >>180. Otherwise looks dope! Don't stop posting pictures.

New Vandwelling thread? Last one was fruitful.

I found this: https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Van_Dwelling

>>180 The duct tape is temporary, construction is ongoing. I appreciate the tip! Although I will likely be enclosing the wheel wells inside cabinets of some description...

>>180 Here are some pictures from when I was framing it all in...I am still not quite finished with the interior. I have cabinets and storage spaces to build.

>>181 I insulated with 2 inches of poly-isocyanurate on the walls, 2.5 inches on the ceiling, 1 inch on the floors and 3+ inches on the doors and bulkhead. Spray foam went into all the ribs and hollow spaces in the van body, and was used to adhere the foam boards to the walls and ceiling. I Have my electrical system partly setup now...Have some photos.

We are currently moving forward with work on the S-2 engine. Thus far, EVAN-01 has proven compliant and surprisingly sound in the mechanical department considering she sat for several years, seeing service as a mere storage shed. We have begun upgrades, replacing worn or damaged conduit and hoses, new head gaskets, fresh filters and new vacuum lines, fresh plugs, spark rotor, cap and drive gear. A complete transmission service is scheduled, assuming no incidents occur like the last synchronization test. Perhaps I will post some photos with Shinji in the entry plug when he gets up the courage to sit in the pilot's seat again. lol poor kid, reminds me alot of myself at his age.

>>195 Some more detail on the battery and waste excretion mechanism...Fortunately, this new battery will last much longer than the measly 5 minutes of the previous generation. We expect reserve capacity up to 72 hours, hence why we provided the pilot with a way to take care of their business.The fools at SEELE will never see us coming!

Not sure if anyone posted this before but youtube user FFCossag made a van-sleeper for a tour around europe that might be of interest to you lot. It's also a really good diy channel with a focus on electronics and audio.

>>151 I like the hammock idea. If done right you wouldn't have to make space for a cumbersome mattress. Instead just unhook the hammock whenever you're not using. http://thevanual.com/

>>204 Indeed it is. I looked him up, he does some really enticing things, I appreciate the suggestion, new ideas and ways of doing things are always helpful when vandwelling.

>>206 indeed, this is the intent. It is also, in my experience, far more comfortable than a bed and much easier to clean and maintain. The only downfall has been cold weather performance. when temperatures in the van get to low, the hammock becomes quite cold. Fortunately, my heavy sleeping bag mitigates such troubles quite well. I also have a heater and power system now, so cold weather should no longer pose a threat, unless it brings protracted periods of total darkness as well.

Does anyone here know how to setup an self hosted email server while living in a van or RV?

>>211 I guess rent a vps somewhere and host a mail server on that? Being connected to the wired 24/7 while in a van seems a bit too hard.

>>212 I was thinking about something like that, but I was hoping to maintain physical access to the server hardware, mostly for peace of mind.

>>211 http://www.cloudatcost.com/cloudservers.php More than just email. You could do VPN and Diaspora too.

>>216 Sounds useful, mind filling me in? with some links or philes??

As the poster of the original vandweller thread, I'm happy to have started a tradition here and thankful that I ended up being able to stay in a house. Your collective resourcefulness astounds me.

>>221 How was it? Got any stories or tips?

>>211 Digitalocean $5 VPS with ubuntu hosts my email, rss reader, and some other random cloud type things. Will definitely be a pain to setup if you have no experience doing that kind of thing, but it's worth the effort imo.

>>212 My dude. I'm >>114 I got one of the ATT ZTE Mobley plans. I get ~22G 4g for ~$25 a month. Constant up-time is easy if you know how to budget bandwidth. That said, the VPS idea isn't terrible. Sometimes it's (much) faster and (relatively) cheaper to surf the webernets on a remote desktop your streaming local.

>>146 >Raspberry pi beowulf cluster I now have a new DIY goal, but on a serious note is there really a practical use for this? I feel like there would be a massive I/O bottleneck somewhere in the mix that would throttle any useful computing, and for a similar power-draw you could do a heck of a lot more with an x86 laptop or even a smartphone. And even if you had a massively powerful rig, to actually utilize it you would be limited to programs that are optimized for running asynchronous, multithreaded, and ARM... Am I missing something?

So, I have my solar components stacked up now, but I just realized that the maximum current output of my Panels exceeds the current capacity of the 10 gauge wire and mc4 connectors I am using to connect the panels in parrallel to the charge controller (TS-60 PWM controller by morningstar)...Is this going to be a problem? Or am I just overreacting? I will have to get Ritsuko working on this with the magi....It is hardly my expertise. (Do any of you know how to get around this problem?)

>>279 Gonna heat up unless you limit it anon.

>>223 Better than digital ocean. http://www.cloudatcost.com/cloudservers.php 17$ one time fee.

>>254 participate in the https://golem.network and earn some crypto coins for rendering files?

>>330 holy soykaf thanks

>>330 Looks shady. How can they offer this?

>>340 By massively overselling. All VPS providers oversell unless you're paying specifically for dedicated resources, but I'm betting $17 for a lifetime of service gets very ugly. Check out the subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/CloudAtCost/

Found this. http://www.homesweetvan.com/

>>341 subreddit tl;dr: Mafiahosting. They ask you a "maintenance fee" whenever they feel like and if you don't pay it in time your server gets deleted.

is vandwelling infeasible for someone with no diy/building experience? it's looking like an investment i can't fully afford to make at the moment, and even if i could messing up would fuarrrk me over big time. my other consideration was going /innawoods/, but survivalism + total self-sufficiency seems even less practical for me (at least right now)

>>383 Depends on what you're attempting to do, if you feel too inept you could always just buy an old type b RV and live out of that but you would be surprised what you can do once you get over that learned helplessness.

I'd really rather use a 48v DC PSU for my PC than have to deal with inverter loss https://www.powerstream.com/DC-PC-48V.htm Either that or just get a supermicro rackmount with a DC psu just for space constraints.

>>330 Pulled the trigger on an 8 CPU 8g RAM 80g HDD package. Here is a little script I'm working on to set it up as a remote desktop you can get on via NoMachine. This is totally a work in progress and I'd love any feedback. https://github.com/snuffeluffegus/ErectMyCAC >>383 I'd say go for it. I lived on and partially renovated and upgraded a sailboat with very little prior experience. Then I recently pulled the trigger and am in the process of doing it to a van. Youtube tutorials are invaluable.

>>390 I should note that this is specifically for an ubuntu box, but it might also work for debian with minor hackage.

>>390 >>391 This is kinda what you get with CAC. The up time is garbage, I reboot like every other day.

I know I'm going to sound like a jackass for asking this, but I promise it's a genuine question: why a van instead of car + travel trailer? It's because you want to be able to just sleep in parking lots, right? Or you don't live near a place where you can squat innawoods indefinitely? I only ask because I knew people who lived on camp grounds and it seemed a lot more comfortable than complete vagrancy. Might not be worth the "rent", although probably easier to hold down a meatspace job. The idea of keeping the bulk of your digital resources in a data center is really interesting. Even paying for collocation would be cheaper than what I pay for my apartment every month. Nice hosting + nice GSM hotspot + soykafty laptop seems like peak /cyb/ living to me.

>>146 I imagine a gun would be essential vandwelling equipment.. In some parts of my town "having a car that runs" is enough for crackheads to start fuarrrking with you.

Anyone got a link to step van conversions like in the OP?

>>487 Stealth >>488 Nah

>>487 In my instance, I cannot find a free camp ground within reasonable distance of my chosen workplace. I hate rent. I hate property taxes. I hate paying for the space in which I live. So I take the steps to minimize those expenses in addition to utilities. My reasoning is pretty simple really. Also, with the van, I am able to step into the cab and drive away at any time no questions asked. I can be up and on the road in under a minute if I need to make a quick getaway or convince the police that I am merely resting. ect. having a separate car and camper would be more expensive in terms of maintenance, registration and insurance and would inhibit my ability to park wherever I like for free. Plus, the van is likely to endure longer than most campers at lower overall cost, just based on construction quality. Most campers are overpriced and poorly constructed for permanent residency.

bump

>>984 stop necrobumping

Anyone got that old pdf for vandwelling?

>>986 >Pollack accurate

>>1574 WALLAH WALLAH WALLAH VAN VAN VAN VAN HALLAH HALLAH NECROBUMP Moar Van Thread Please

I am interested in hearing from lainons who do this van living in cold regions with temperatures -20 Celsius - -30 Celsius (sub zero Fahrenheit). Also hot +30c (86F) I can stand the heat, but there are risks to winter arctic like temperatures, like freezing discomfort, gas buildup ventilation, accidental heating fires.

>>2235 line the inside of your van with those reflective space-age blankets and sleep in a subzero-rated sleeping bag. It's not much different from snow camping.

>>2235 not to even mention chip shift

http://www.vehicledwelling.com/ currently transitioning to this sort of lifestyle, this guy pretty much has all the answers :)

>>208 >The only downfall has been cold weather performance. Bushcrafter/camper here. You can buy underslung insulators that attach to your hammock for this exact purpose, Ikari-san. If you want to cheap out a yoga mat can be thrown into the top of the hammock, but this lends itself to sliding out, so I'd highly recommend a proper hammock insulator.

>>2235 I've managed to get by with a propane heater, heavy curtains and blankets last winter. But keep in mind; as long as your van is not isolated, you're going to be uncomfortable.. to varying degrees depending on your physical nature.

I lived out of my car for one week and was accosted three separate times at night by random weirdos. I don't even live in a bad area. I'm never doing it again.

>>2453 Are you a girl or something? If so that make sense

>>2453 They aren't supposed to be able to see through the windows. I'm assuming they were able to see through the windows.

>>2418 This is the solution i eventually arrived at. Thanks for the tip. I have recently relocated to Baltimore, thus I have been making various adjustments to improve my cold weather durability and comfort.

>>2235 I found that wool moving blankets help tremendously when used as thermal curtains around the doors of the van. As far as hot weather adaptation goes, I just spend most of my summer days outside of the van, until late at night, and have a fan circulating air from the front windows into the living compartment. Thanks to my hammock and some planning with the fan and judicious van parking, sleeping in weather as hot as 33C and at 80% relative humidity has not been too much of a problem. I got used to it for the most part. I will be completely honest, living in my van is essentially like camping in a big well insulated tent with an engine and more amenities. No two ways around it. But I have been loving it frankly.

I did vanlife for about 4 years, but just parked the thing and barely made any upgrades due to lack of funds, space and tools. Now I'm going to try building a shack on top of a pickup but I don't know what they're called so it's hard for me to get started. You know, where it hangs over the top a bit for bedspace but not quite a camper? Anyway this time I'm doing full solar and going to be more mobile and active.

>>2458 I've seen this. I think it's called dirtbagging.

>>2458 Campervan.

Van dwelling is gonna become seriously next level with self-driving cars, upgraded solar pannels and 5G networks

>>2470 inb4 regional mesh network of migrant self-driving caravans crops up in deserts of what was once california. the vans each look like a combination of a japanese dekotora truck and one of those burning man cars. their owners are all members of an IT contracting firm/mescaline cult. every month or so, they converge on a carnival-like camp on the outskirts of SF where they establish consensus with the wider internet and receive payment (in water) for services rendered. the mysticism and independence of these savages puts them at odds with the small pockets of cybernetically-enhanced crypto miners that still cling to the rainy side of the mountains. due to their networked cerebral prostheses, the "neuronal mining pool local 282" hivemind experiences "the merge" -- as they have come to call it -- as an extended period of acute cognitive dissonance.

idea: small cot-sized tub for bathing, hinged padded lid on top for sleeping. along with a porta-potty that would take care of all your occasional bathroom and bedroom needs and double as a place to sit during the day. a few big coolers for food/water/storage doubling as tables. nice foldable solar panel on the roof for charging your cellphone whatever. a few candle lanterns for light at night. little butane stove for coffee and whatnot. good sleeping bag for sub-freezing nights. i lived out of my truck out in the woods for a few months one time. you don't need much to stay reasonably clean, comfortable, and fed. food, water, and gas in, trash and sewage out. rent a motel room once in a while if you want.

>>2472 I would call that Instrumentality. Bring on the ultramobile cyborg collective! and when we finally have our space vans, the galaxy will be our oyster!

>>2472 I think this was a Bruce Sterling novel once. If not, you should write it.

>>2500 "Sewage out" seems like a problem. Where do you put it?

This was too big to post, so I'll link. https://archive.org/details/HowToBuildTrailerBook

https://old.reddit.com/r/vandwellers/wiki/index https://www.cheaprvliving.com/ http://www.livinginavan.net/buying-a-van/

>>2509 Composting toilet.

Looking at converting a van to live in, if anyone has any advice or such Current priorities are: 1) Get the van: Vauxhall Vivaro, short wheel base to make parking easier as I work in town center. 2) Insulate & Panel: Planning on using a combination of foam and adhesive sound dampening sheet thingies, with some of the filler stuff to fill any gaps. Going to panel it with pallet wood sanded down to a nicer finish to help keep costs low and make me less worried about drilling into the wood to mount things etc. 3) Electricity 1x 100W solar panel and 2 155AH batteries. Possibly upgrading to 2x solar panels. aim would be to run a laptop, lighting, fan and maybe some other misc electronics, with the option of being able to run a large PA speaker or two for a number of hours if needed. Anything I've overlooked / have any ideas?

Best to avoid raw, especially porous, raw wood products in your interior. Even with good ventilation, if you live in an area with any appreciable humidity, or you breathe while sleeping, you will quickly find that would absorbs water and releases it with temperature changes in addition to facilitating mold growth. I highly recommend wood styled plastic products for interior paneling, or virtually any kind of easily cleanable composite material. You could even try sealed paper machey/home made fiberglass using Extruded Polystyrene insulation that is painted or stained, as an interior material. It is better insulating, lighter and less mold/moisture/ insect prone than any kind of wood in the medium to long term. The only real competitor from wood family would probably be cedar planks, but they are not as insulative, are heavier, and harder to work with.

Here is an example of some nice cabinetry being made from XPS and paper bags. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucf2FVIdr1Q The same technique can be readily applied to interior paneling to make rigid, insulative, attractive and durable walls that require little maintenance and will not facilitate mold or insect growth.

>>2795 If that is too much work, then painted or wood grained XPS panels make an excellent low effort substitute, though they lack the uniqueness of the paper baged texture.

>>2796 Live in the UK, so rain's a pain. I get what you mean about the wood practically being a sponge, but is there any way of treating the wood that'd solve/mitigate that? I'd plan on having an always-on fan vent anyway, saw the difference that made in my friends van when it was installed. >>2797 This looks really interesting! (Gotta admit I haven't watched the whole video yet). Will definitely keep this in mind.

>>2799 >2797 I wont tell you how to live your life. I personally never installed and will never install a fan, as it requires too much roof real estate on my dwelling and will be a water ingress point. I too live in a humid, but more temperate climate in deep Louisianan swamp lands. I have found painted and stained XPS interior wall panels to be the optimal solution for such a climate. I tried sealed wood, with oil based, latex based lacquers and eventually a variety of exterior house paints. I have also tried cedar plywood and a variety of wood composites. I have not found any to be particularly satisfying. I constantly had mold growing on my walls, and found insects crawling in various places I did not expect. Since I gutted and re insulated everything, and replaced my walls with textured and stained+painted XPS I have no further issues. Sealing the wood definitely did help, but it seems like even the best solution I tried, using oil based lacquer sealed cedar ply, needed to be refinished every year or so in my environment. In any case, best of luck on your new adventure, and welcome to van life!

>>2800 I think XPS is probably going to be my best bet then, I suppose it'll bring the price down if I'm bulk buying it to do both insulation and furnishings Might still use the pallets for OpenStructures stuff though

This video (and the channel it's on) has some neat ideas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5L6TZdy_y0

>>2800 >Louisiana I lived there for 4 1/2 years everything that doesn't get direct sunlight gets mold.

This guy's style is not very cyber at all, but I've found his channel to be full of useful information and ideas: https://youtube.com/channel/UCAj7O3LCDbkIR54hAn6Zz7A.

Currently renting a place, but I've been thinking about taking a year off before I build or buy to travel around the country (US) in a van with my significant other. I'm curious as to where people park the van over night when doing a trip like mine. Do you just go camp ground to camp ground or do you stay in the parking lot of certain places (a 24/7 gym for example)?

>>2828 you'll get bored in 3 months. I traveled for a while.

not quite vandwelling, but relevant -- I've been considering purchasing a cheap trailer(probably in the $2000-5000 range on craigslist), putting a few solar panels on it, and living out of it full time. I already have a truck that I can use to pull it, and it is likely I will end up renting/purchasing a plot of land and plopping the trailer down there. No plans on living in a city. Does anybody have experience with trailer living? The benefits over vandwelling seem pretty obvious(don't have to fiddle with building your living space so much, can detach car, more storage space), but there might be some negatives to this plan I am not considering. I won't be going through with this plan for at least a year so it's really in the pre-planning phase right now, I'm just wondering if it's a good idea.

>>2827 This guy too. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCflgF00uFv0E6KO2zJon-YQ

Ok hear me out here. My cray idea is to turn a sedan into a tent camper. The plan would be to have the bed frame slide out from behind the tail lights. Maybe make the tail lights and the segment of the chassis that they mount to will be attached to the bed and slide out with it, but lock in place when closed up and be flush with the trunk and bumper. I would either extend the wires going to them or make them detachable. The bed would be sort of thin at first, but two partitions that pop up from beneath it on both the right and left and lock to the main bed frame. The bed would be the length of the back seat and the trunk combined. Also once the bed is pulled out another partition that rests beneath it where the passengers feat would be could lift up pneumatically to extend the total length of the bed when it's fully extended. Then the trunk and the rear window would be removable so that the tent part can pop out using some light poles just like in a pop up. Now the segment of the chassis that runs across the bottom of the window and where the trunk meets up is the real concern. If that is a necessary part of the structure and I can't remove it then I might just emit that part of the bed that is inside the car after it is opened up. The one I said was at the passenger feet. Since that cross member would get in the way of the person or people using the bed and also since that cushion would be thinner than the rest of the bed anyway since it would extend to be wider than the car itself. Of course I would have a stand under the bed just like pop ups do. A very simple way to have a compact sleeper. You could even use a hybrid or convert a gas car to hybrid. Full EV probably isn't a good choice since you would need huge battery arrays and need to recharge often. Even with multiple motors acting as brake charging. Of course being this small you would count on spending most your time outdoors. You could mount a kayak to the roof, bike rack on the back, tow a small kitchen/storage in a tiny trailer, and have a canopy or full enclosed screen room. The only extra material goods you might want would be a guitar or laptop, a phone and radio. Also some external antenna may come in handy for those minimal signal locations.

>>155 >bastrop isd wow you live right next to me.

anyone got archives of the old van dwelling thread by any chance?

>>3271 lol Not anymore.

If I ever had to live in a transportable home for a long period of time, I would seriously want it to resemeble something like this. That or a stone or wooden roundhouse.

Can someone explain to me why we can have propane refrigerators but not propane air conditioners? My limited research has not made the problems with this approach clear. More generally, I'm finding that cooling the van is a serious problem, with air conditioning requiring obnoxious amounts of electric power. If anyone has any suggestions, please post them. No, I can't use a swamp cooler; I don't expect to be out in the desert.

>>3414 https://youtu.be/UpTFNnGvbMU?t=1871 Reminds me of the preacher's mobile church from The Stranger And The Gunfighter.

>>2795 The vivaro is not wide enough to put the bed width-ways, whereas a transit just about is (you get 6ft width in a transit, which was tolerable even though I'm 6'3.) A swb vivaro either means a really narrow bed lengthways, or you're packing unpacking a folding bed every day. Idk how good parking is in a vivaro, but I never had any problems in a swb tranny.

>>2795 Also, I ran a laptop all day, a fan, lights & various misc electronics with one 80w solar panel and one 110ah leisure battery, and it never even got half way to discharged, even in the grey Welsh winters. Save some money on PVs and buy some better wood; pallets are often treated with horrible chemicals which you don't want leaching into the confined space you sleep in. X

>>3425 I wasn't even aware propane could be used as a refrigerant. I would think being highly flammable was a good enough reason not to use it for either appliance.

>>146 good guide